CHAIRPERSON: Mr Senatle, good morning.
MR SENATLE: Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you feeling a little easier? I know you were feeling a little anxious earlier on.
MR SENATLE: I think so.
CHAIRPERSON: Good. Can you introduce the lady who is with you this morning?
MR SENATLE: That's my sister.
CHAIRPERSON: I welcome your sister too. Mr Senatle, you are from Jouberton.
MR SENATLE: Yes, that's true.
CHAIRPERSON: Which is just up Klerksdorp.
MR SENATLE: That's true.
CHAIRPERSON: You have also come to talk to us about two incidences, or in fact three incidences, all relating to yourself. Prof Piet Meiring who is sitting over there, he is going to be helping you in telling your story. But before I hand over to him would you please stand to take the oath.
SAM JENNY SENATLE: ; (Duly sworn, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Senatle. Prof Meiring?
PROF MEIRING: Mr Senatle, good morning.
MR SENATLE: Good morning, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: Before we start with your story, I would love KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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to know a little about Mr Senatle himself. In your statement you say that you are 29 years of age. Is that correct?
MR SENATLE: That's true, sir.
PROF MEIRING: Are you working?
MR SENATLE: I am not working, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: Where did you go to school?
MR SENATLE: I did but I didn't arrive where I wanted to be.
PROF MEIRING: Where did you arrive at school?
MR SENATLE: Std 9, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: And you would wish to go further with your studies?
MR SENATLE: I tried very hard but because of the weaknesses I was not able to go further.
PROF MEIRING: Are you married?
MR SENATLE: I am not married, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: Do you have children?
MR SENATLE: I have one child.
PROF MEIRING: A boy or a girl?
MR SENATLE: That's a girl, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: And how old is the girl?
MR SENATLE: Twelve years, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: Thank you. Many, or many of the things that you are going to relate to us this morning, has everything to do with the rent boycott of September 1985. Before you tell your story, please put us in the picture, what happened with the rent boycott? Was it a very large boycott, did many people take part in the boycott? Please tell us about the boycott of September 1985.
MR SENATLE: In 1985 the Jouberton youth, we tried to assemble ourselves to build JOYCO which is Jouberton Youth
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Congress. Which is objective, was to fight against the government of the day.
In 1985, that is when that we had strength to plan the boycotts, which will shake the government of the day. The consumer boycotts were the instruments which we used to shake the government. The citizens of Jouberton were supporting us. Even if the arrests happened before we achieved our objective. It was in 1985 when we were still planning to bring the consumer boycott into operation, as we know that even before Judas Iscariot was there. I was arrested on the 12th of September, and therefore our plans to continue with the boycotts ran by consumer boycotts, we hadn't started yet at that time. But the citizens of the area were supporting us at that time.
PROF MEIRING: Were you very active politics?
MR SENATLE: Yes, I was taking part in politics. Very strongly. I was a member of the JOYCO, which is Jouberton Youth Congress it was an affiliate to the UDF.
PROF MEIRING: Did you figure as an activist in Jouberton at that time?
MR SENATLE: Yes, I was well-known, because of my role I played, because I was a dancer before I took part in politics.
PROF MEIRING: A dancer?
MR SENATLE: Yes.
PROF MEIRING: That's interesting. But Mr Senatle, please tell us now what happened on that fatal day of the 12th of September.
MR SENATLE: On the 12th of September 1985, immediately after we had a meeting together with those who started JOYCO, the police came to my house, at about between three
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and four in the morning. I heard police knocking at the door. I was sleeping with my uncle in one room, in an outside room. I realised that I should wake up and go and look what is happening. When I looked through the window, I saw policemen knocking very hard. One of the comrades whom we were with, who is Victor Seretse, whom I realised that he was badly injured. That has made me to be aware that the police are looking for me.
Then I went to the back of the bedroom. I spoke to my uncle and said he must tell them that I am not around. Then I went inside the wardrobe, then I covered myself with clothes. They opened the door themselves. How they opened it I don't know. They entered in the room in which we were sleeping. Then they asked my uncle where I am. Then he said Jenny is not around, he is not sleeping here. Then there was one policeman who was saying do you know me? He was asking my uncle. Then my uncle said I don't know you. Then he said I am the Fairy. Then they started to assault him until he admitted I am in the wardrobe. Then he stretched his hand inside the wardrobe. At the time I had long hair, because I was going to the dance competitition. He stretched his hand and then he pulled off my hair. Thereafter there was a torch which was shone into my eyes, then they hit me with the fists. I started bleeding at that time inside the wardrobe. Then he pulled me outside the wardrobe.
My father tried to ask what is happening. They didn't even care to answer. Then they said I should go with them. My father gave me clothes. I was putting on my clothes while I was working. Peter Seretse was put into another van. I was put in a blue van. They went with me to the cells of the
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municipal police which were in Jouberton.
When we arrived there they were beating me with fists, they were kicking me. When I was standing - I found other comrades who were already beaten at that time. They were asking me that the leaders who were prepared to lead the consumer boycotts, who are they. Then I said to them that there is no leader, all of us are leaders at the school, and all of us, we are prepared to start with this boycott. Then they were beating me again and kicking me. Then one policeman called De Kock - he was speaking with me in Afrikaans, he was looking at literature. I pretended I don't hear anything. Then April came in and said what is the problem. Then he said this man cannot speak Afrikaans, but today he is going to speak Afrikaans.
Then we went out to the car. Then he brought a long gun. Then he pulled that gun and said to me you are going to speak Afrikaans today. Then when he pointed the gun at me I said boss, I will now talk. Then he said to April, do this thing. Then April and Steve Dekopi who was calling himself I beat the dog, they were kicking me and assaulting me. Thereafter my eyes were starting now to lose sight. I fell down as if I have epilepsy. When I made myself to fall down, made it worse. They were jumping and then they were hitting on my head. As on the photos that I will show you. Then I stood up. Then my mouth broke. Then they said do you still not want to tell the truth. There was a bicycle which was there. It was inside the cell. They picked up the bicycle and hit me with that bicycle. Then the handle hit me on the head, I had to have stitches.
Thereafter they said they are going to look for others. I didn't know who the others were. Because I was bleeding
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from the mouth and the nose - amongst our comrades there was one who secreted. In that cell there was a toilet, there was a bucket. They took me by my hair and they took my head and inside the toilet and inside that bucket. Then then threw their legs they were hitting me on the head. On my hospital file - my voice is not this way. It is written on the file which shows that I was able to see my file in 1986, it is here. It is written that my throat has been injured. They trapped by their feet and flushed the toilet. Then they took me out of the toilet. I was filled with secrete and they left me.
After some five minutes one of the policemen who was working at the municipal offices, and that name is Kepida Sakopela. It was in the morning. He went to buy us bread and milk and then he said we should eat. I was not able to eat because my mouth was injured. The teacher which I was wearing, was left only with a collar. My back as if it has been bent with irons. Those things happened in 1985, but if you look at my back it seems it is rotten. After a long time they went outside. Then Mr Sakopela said we had better go out.
Then I was admitted to hospital. Then the other comrades were just washed and treated and left.
On the 19th, in October, the police came again. I was saying because they thought maybe they will be surprised by the case, but they took me to Stilfontein police station. We knew it as Moerfontein. We arrived there together with April and Dotty was there.
They showed me a cell which was full of blood. They said to me your blood is going to remain here. They threatened me and then they left me inside.
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The following day they took me out. There was a place, we didn't know there is a police station in Renoville. I was thrown inside that room. I was thrown inside that room. Whilst I was still sleeping in the morning at about ten o'clock, there were boers who were there wearing uniforms. The Fear Lulu Tridi Zebeda entered. Then he said you, comrade, you think you are going to make love alone. Then I want to show you. He was having a big plank. He hit me on the waist with it, then I was able to get hold of it. Then he said I should open my legs. I did that because I thought he is searching me. Then he came nearer me and then he kicked me on my private parts. I fell down, I was crying. I think I sleeping there about two hours. Then he left me while I was still sleeping, and then he went out.
During the day they said to me I should leave. Then I didn't even fill in any forms there, I thought they were going to kill me. From Unionville (?) to the location, it wasn't too far. Then I went there with my feet.
On the 25th in November, we were just about to write exams. They just arrived and picked us up again with other comrades. They took us to Klerksdorp police station. They said we are going to write exams in that place, in the police station. Fortunately the students like fighting that they don't agree with what they are saying.
The parents committee was formed. Bisho Dwand was there and Letala was there, and other people - I don't remember, I think my super was there. They tried to intervene that we should be released that we should go and write exams outside. It was there - before they released us, a (indistinct) said to me I should leave this case and together (indistinct). They took me to the other room
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which was full of corpses. Then he said he is in favour of me and he doesn't want to do bad things. So he made me to touch one corpse which was - after that we were released to go to school.
In January in 1986, I think it was the second week of that January. I don't remember the actual date. They came, April and company came again. I was sleeping in the forest. I was not able to sleep at home. I didn't sleep at home that day and I was sleeping next-door. I was able to hear them when they knocked during the night. When we wake up we could see that they have come again. My uncle at that time was wearing a blue underwear. He was taken like that and put in a van. I was able to hear that they were hitting my father and my brothers and sisters. What I am able to say is that my father had a blind eye, but what they were using to hit him and he (indistinct) now. They were hitting him to the extent that he has an artificial eye. They were hitting him and they were saying my uncle should go and identify other uncles of mine, maybe they will get me there. They went to 68 where my other uncle was staying. They arrived there and opened and the girls were sitting there. They were hitting one cousin of mine who is now an epileptic. He is 26 years old. He is getting a subsistence allowance since he was beaten by the police.
Three days thereafter I said to myself I should go and sleep at home, because if they can get me outside the house they are goingto kill me. They found me. Then they took me to Klerksdorp police station. They took me to the charge office. I was instructed to take off my clothes in front of two White girls who were working there. I was naked. Before those girls.
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There was one boer called Tuti, he was a policeman. They brought dogs. Then they said I am going to stand there the whole day. I thought they were joking. I had no underwear. I stood there before those girls. Those dogs were barking at me. When I closed the door to try to sleep, the dogs were barking. When my private parts were shaking a little bit these dogs would bark. Then I said perhaps I could have had no private parts by now. I was standing there the whole day until the following day.
They didn't take any statement from me. Then they said to me I must go. Then I didn't have any shoes, I was barefoot. I went to my father at work. Then when I arrived there I asked him to take me home, because my legs were swollen.
Again, on the 7th of February, they were supposed to have a funeral of a comrade who was shot. Then they phoned Jean Pretorius, De Kock and others came to fetch me. Then they took me to the police station. From there we were taken to Stilfontein. We were detained again. On the 10th we were supposed to appear in court. I was together with Abe Mahono. We went to court. It was remanded. We were taken back to Klerksdorp prison. We stayed there. On the 12th we appeared in court.
People were burning halls at that time. On the 12th we appeared in court. We were charged with public violence. I don't know which one it was. Because they could have charged me with sleeping violence because they found me asleep. We were left in court and then we were told we should go home.
On the 12th of May I was not sleeping at home at that time, I was sleeping at my sister's house, together with my
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friend, called Benji Oliphant. On the 10th, from my sister's house we were planning to leave. When we arrived at the post office, the old one, there were boys who were standing there, saying to me the police were looking for me. It was on the 9th. When we were waiting, the police van was following us. I just heard shots and I just thought they were shooting at Joe's Garage. The marks are there even still now. We opened the door and then we went in there. Then we went through the back door. We left together with Benji. He took his own way, I took my own way.
Then I ran home. I was wearing dance shoes. Then I ran home. At home I decided to put on tackies so that I could leave. It was about ten o'clock in the morning. I put on the tackies. My younger brother was sleeping on the sofa. Then I asked him to come and lock the door and then I went to the opposite house.
After ten minutes (indistinct), Matebe, they were busy breaking the dining room door. Then the soldiers were there and the police cars were there and the house was surrounded. They broke in, they were having guns. I was then looking through the window, from the opposite house.
PROF MEIRING: Mr Senatle, we have to move along rather quickly. Was that when you eventually fled and went to the cemetery and stayed in the cemetery?
MR SENATLE: That's true, Sir.
PROF MEIRING: And then again, you were arrested and you together with Benji Oliphant and you were taken to Jouberton police station.
MR SENATLE: No, Sir. After I ran with Benji, the followin gday I went to my sister's house. Then we disguised ourselves. Then my sister gave us evening dresses with Afro
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wigs. Then we went to Ellis Hadji, then he took us to Porch we decided to go to Johannesburg. That is where I separated from Benji. After that, that was the last time I saw Benji.
On the 11th of June, the week after I ran away, I went back home again. On the 11th of June they came to pick me up, April and company. They arrested me under the Internal Scurity Act. On the 12th, the state of emergency was declared. Then Bishop Mdande was there. The journalist Hoffmann was there, Mosupa was there. We were taken to Khuma police station. Where we were forced, together with Pakadi, he was a councillor by then, we were forced to sing revolutionary songs. We were hit, they were hitting us at that time. After two days we were taken to Klerksdorp prison.
PROF MEIRING: According to your witness, after you were taken to prison in September 1986, you were taken to an isolation cell.
MR SENATLE: After interrogation by April, there was a policeman called Bennett. I was taken by adjudant Kruger from the cell, but that was an adjudant. They took me to an isolation cell. Journalist Hoffmann was there and Pagad was there. We were interrogated in single cells, but they were open, I was able to hear them and Bennett was asking me where Benji is. Then I said we separated in Johannesburg. Then I was adamant at that time. Then Bennett started hitting me. Since he was unable to get the truth, he called April to say this person is insulting your mother. Then April, he didn't ask, then when I refused that and say I didn't insult his mother, then Bennett assaulted me by saying I am telling a lie. Then April pulled out a gun. Then he said this dog, we should kill him before we get
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Benji. He didn't even want to throw his case. Then April tried it.
PROF MEIRING: Everything happened in September 1986.
MR SENATLE: 1986.
PROF MEIRING: And then according to your testimony, you stayed in the isolation cell in prison for a whole year, for nearly a year. It was only in June 1987 that you were released. Is that correct?
MR SENATLE: I didn't stay the whole period in prison. It was only that time that I was assaulted that I was returned to the cell, but I was taken to other comrades. I was assaulted April handcuffed me. Then they put me in the corner of the wall. Uys and Kruger were there at that time. Together with Bennett they were hitting my head against the wall. I was even worse as compared to the photos I am going to produce. I was not able to see. They were pouring water over me. Then I collapsed on the steps in prison. Then that is that when I was taken to my isolation cell. That is where I stayed. At that time, Judge Goldstone Stone came to the prisoners. I believe he came at the time while I still had scars on my face. I stayed there and then in December I heard that Benji Oliphant has been killed. I heard that from April Tswaide. Because he said he he is going to start with me and then after that he is going to kill Benji.
In 1987 we were released together with other comrades. We were bribed that we should leave all those political activities and we were taken out on Sunday. The police said that we could go home.
PROF MEIRING: I see it is a long story you had to tell us and you had a very, very painful experience. But thank you for sharing that with us. May I ask only one or two
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questions and then I will hand you over to my colleagues who will no doubt would like to ask you a question or two themselves. The real question I would like ask of you is, after your release, you say that you suffered a lot and that you were not able to work. Is that correct?
MR SENATLE: Yes, that's true.
PROF MEIRING: Do you have a disability grant, do you receive money montly to live on?
MR SENATLE: Nothing, Sir.
END OF TAPE - SIDE A
MR SENATLE: ... through dance competitions, even if they don't bring much, because at home we are about six and there is nobody working.
PROF MEIRING: The dance competitions, does that bring in money?
MR SENATLE: There is a problem that people are not used to dance competitions and people are not attending.
PROF MEIRING: Your daughter is twelve years of age. Who cares for her?
MR SENATLE: Her mother is the one who takes care of her.
PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much. I think I am finished with all my questions. I would like to hand you back to the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata?
MR MANTHATA: Sam, I see here that even when you were arrested, there was one comrade who died and then was buried. I wanted to find out whether through your boycotts, was there any person who died? For instance, people who were working within the councils and the policemen, to show that your boycott was the boycott of killing?
MR SENATLE: In Jouberton no policeman was attacked.
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Except in 1987 when the police were not understanding, they were killing then and the people were fighting back. But I am not sure whether there was a policeman who was attacked. MR MANTHATA: At that time during 1985/1986, was there no policeman who was attacked or killed?
MR SENATLE: The intention was not to kill.
MR MANTHATA: There was a parents committee at that time, what was the work of the parents committee to help you with?
MR SENATLE: It was formed during that time when we were just about to write our exams and when the police wanted us to write exams in the police station, then they formed the parents committee to intervene in that crisis.
MR MANTHATA: But during your arrest, and even in your assaults in your torture, besides the examination thing, they were not helping or trying to give you support, which you needed?
MR SENATLE: The parents committee, after it was formed, it was there after Bishop Mdande, they were also arrested at that time. It was taken as if they were influencing us. So they were giving us direction and they were showing us our mistakes if they were there.
MR MANTHATA: In other words they were giving you moral support.
MR SENATLE: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: During that time, in the UDF leadership who were members?
MR SENATLE: At the (indistinct) at that time, there was no leader as such, during 1985.
MR MANTHATA: Then how were you able to work with UDF in Johannesburg when you were able to run away as well?
MR SENATLE: I didn't run away to Johannesburg. The person
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who was able to run to Johannesburg was Benji Oliphant. But people like Terror was appearing at times.
MR MANTHATA: I would ask that during that time when you were a leader, that now how do you see yourself, are you a leader or not?
MR SENATLE: For now I am a volunteer worker in the Arts and Culture Department in RDP in Klerksdorp, on a voluntary basis.
MR MANTHATA: The members of the parents committee, I heard you speaking or Rev Masupa. How did you work with them, now in the committee of Jouberton?
MR SENATLE: I believe they are still regarded as our leaders, and where necessary, to give support they give that support. Even though they are not directly involved in the leadership, but they are still given that respect because we know that they have worked in the struggle.
MR MANTHATA: Now it seems now the situation now between you and them and the police, is there any peace?
MR SENATLE: I have peace together with many policemen, but I have no peace with those who have made me a cripple.
MR MANTHATA: Are they still in Stilfontein?
MR SENATLE: April is still working full-time.
MR MANTHATA: Being that way, how do you work with them when you meet them? Do you have hope that they would bring peace in the area?
MR SENATLE: I hope that, it is painful, it is still painful to me. I am a friend of man policemen. I remain being their friend but I would not be a friend to De Kock, Viljoen, (indistinct), April and others. I will never be their friend.
MR MANTHATA: During the time when these things were
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happening, did you see a doctor, were you examined by a doctor?
MR SENATLE: Yes, Sir.
MR MANTHATA: Was there a lawyer for human rights who was helping in Jouberton?
MR SENATLE: Ja, Bell was there at that time. But in my case there was a problem, because when I was in hospital my father was not informed. So he even went to another lawyer somewhere.
MR MANTHATA: Many people whom you were working with, who were tortured, the way you were tortured, where are they now?
MR SENATLE: There was a problem that the police at that time, when they were arresting whoever was arrested, so many disappeared. Some ran away and we had no boys in the townships. So the parents were not able to get the information.
MR MANTHATA: People like Benji who were leaders, how did people think of him?
MR SENATLE: Benji is a leader and he was our leader and even among the people, that sentiment still remains.
MR MANTHATA: We are trying to look whether the community, the Jouberton community, are they still able to try to build leaders and do things which will make, will create progress in the community? We do know that things like this will not happen until people like you are not in danger, as you were. I thank you.
DR RANDERA: Two points, Mr Senatle. You said you had the photographs that you wanted to show to us. Perhaps you can pass that to us, okay? My second question is related to all these times that you were tortured. Did you ever lay any
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charges against the police at that time?
MR SENATLE: In 1985 I did make a charge against the police, which I do not know where it ended.
DR RANDERA: Was that the only time?
MR SENATLE: That was the only time, Sir.
DR RANDERA: And the time that you spent in prison, you spent almost a year in prison. Was that just under the state of emergency or was there a court case at which you were charged and then sentenced?
MR SENATLE: It was the state of emergency. Then at times I was just arrested, released and just like that.
DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Senatle.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Senatle, what are the other documents that you have got?
MR SENATLE: They are from the hospital.
CHAIRPERSON: The hospital records, the hospital report?
MR SENATLE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you hand that in to us, please?
MR SENATLE: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Senatle, it just remains for me to thank you for coming, and thank you for sharing your experiences with us. It is important to be reminded of the price that was paid for what has been achieved and what is starting to be enjoyed by people today. Often it is painful to recount experiences of this nature, but it is important because it is also easy to forget. We want to thank you for just having done that. Also reminding us of the sacrifice of young people in the process that led up to the democracy that we have today. What strikes one when one listens to testimony all over the country, is that there was a generation of youth that were simply thrown into adulthood
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at a time when other young people had dreams and ideals and were pursuing those dreams and ideals and living a normal life. A lot of young people had to forego on that, and were thrown into the conflict that we have experienced. We want to thank you for taking us back and reminding us of that as well.
Your testimony again refers to some names amongst the police that have been coming up repeatedly in this sitting here in Klerksdorp, who, according, to submissions made, played a leading role in suppression, in adopting unlawful means, of dealing with people and young people and we have noted that. A previous Chairperson a day or two ago, has extended an invitation to those people to own up and to make use of the channels which are created by this Commission. I simply want to repeat that.
But we thank you for coming. We have noted everything that you have said, and we wish you well.
MR SENATLE: I just wanted to make a remark. I heard what Mr Chairperson said. It has been asked that the perpetrators should make use of this opportunity to apply. I also wish - as long as they are not brought to book, because of the sufferings that I have undergone. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Senatle.
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