CHAIRPERSON: Jan, thank you very much for coming. Can you hear me through, can you hear the translation through the headphones?
MR NKABINDE: Yes, I can.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Could you tell us please who is sitting next to you. And before I ask Wynand Malan to lead you in your evidence could I please ask you to stand, raise your right hand.
JAN Z NKABINDE: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much. Wynand.
MR MALAN: Good afternoon Mr Nkabinde. I see from the information before us that you are a former Chairperson of the ANC Youth League in the area. Without further ado I ask you to share our story with us and we may have some follow-up questions after we have heard you. You are welcome to tell us about the incident during January 1986 that was aimed at yourself.
MR NKABINDE: What I can say is that before I can get into what happened in 1986, everything started in 1984. What I can say is that as we all know that in, Leslie is a small township that is not developed in such a way that there were no facilities like high schools, stadiums and any other recreational facilities for the youth. It happened in 1984 June that the organisation was formed called Impomalelo Youth Congress. So from there, in 1984 I participated, I joined the group actually then participated in it, but by that time we were just ordinary members. We were not in the Executive Committee.
Thereafter in 1985 it started, our Comrades who skipped the country, went to exile. Then we were left. In the same year in 1985 we were elected into the Executive Committee. We were elected into the leadership. At the same time as in the Impomalelo Youth Congress I was elected as the Deputy Chairperson. Others who are also in this are Bungi and Tuli Vaku there and many others. As time went by in 1985, we all know that the uprisings started in 1985 here in Leslie with rent boycotts and school boycotts. We also joined the nationwide struggle for the boycotts. We had no school. We are attending from the shacks. As time went by we joined, actually we joined in Chief Mayisa as our adviser in many matters that involved the youth. We also have our brother M A Nkabinde who advised, who was advising us in attending meetings in Davidton and many other places where the youth congress was meeting.
Also in 1985 in June we all thought that we all belong to one group. We did not know that we had an opposition party. In 1985 there were some divisions within us. The other group of vigilantes started being against us. They decided that they should go back to school, because we were boycotting schools for more than eight months. We had our own demands. We placed, we stated some conditions that we will not be going back to school until our demands were met. Then within that we had a division. Other people decided to go back to school. Then we had people that were playing soccer. Those decided to have their own, to be on their own.
Somewhere between October and November, I am not so sure, because we were just about to start the examinations, there was a call that every student should go back to school. Then the youth decided that it will not be going to school until our, their demands were met. That small group decided to, requested that we all go back to school. Then there was a clash between, because we had people who infiltrated from other townships who came and told us that they no longer want the outsiders, because they are somehow stepping. Then we decided that, no, we are going to handle this our own way. As we were still negotiating we realised that there were some people who were sleeping at school. They decided to arrest other Comrades and took them to the police station. Then we went back to school.
After completing our exams in December that other group was joined by the others. That group was recruited by the soccer club called Real Pirates. Then the other members were interested in joining that other group. Those that were not interested decided to withdraw and then my friends came and told me that they have had several meetings and informed us about the latest developments regarding the attacks. Then those who were not for it decided to withdraw. Then I realised that it was a mature group, organisation and then 86 January on the fourth, that organisation started running in the streets, wearing balaclavas and big coats. Then I met them in the streets. Then I was told that if I still want to see, that if I still want to live I have to leave, disassociate myself from that group, because what they are doing, they were sweeping the streets.
So what they could not do anything without informing me, because they were my friends, but I told them that, no, there was no way in which I could join them. They told me that if I can join them things will go their own way, because they know that I have a proper control over the youth. So what they wanted to do is to get rid of that Congress, but I took it as a joke, because I just told them that, no, I am not for their ideas.
On the 11th of January 1986, as it was mentioned earlier on, we noticed the group, was on my way to the Chief's house. I went past Mr Mayisa's home which, his home also served as a club house. Then I was told that today I must be careful because something bad was going to happen. I had been warned before, but I was not listening. So something was about to happen, I had to be careful. Fortunately enough on that day we were going to have a meeting, because we had already had, something was taking place. About half past one in the afternoon that vigilante group, which was now mixed with the other group, came to My Mayisa's house where they found us. The distance between my home and Mr Mayisa is about 400m. Despite the fact that, I am also related to Mr Mayisa despite the fact that he was our Chief.
So they found me at Mr Mayisa's house. So upon their arrival we also came out of the house and then we asked them what had happened. So they told us that they do not want to see the outsiders here. So he told them that, no, the matter will be settled. By the time they were doing that we were, the fight was already on. So what they told us what that, you know, there will only be peace if we can get rid of those Comrades. So we had a meeting which was addressed by Chief Mayisa. Within that we had some bimpis which were informing us about what is happening from the other group. They informed us about the people that they were planning to kill, Chief Mayisa and Comrade Nkabinde.
I was also informed that I had, I should tell Mr Nkabinde that he is in trouble. Late, round about half past six to seven that vigilante group came again, they did not ask anything, they just, we also realised that, no, trouble is, trouble has come so we started fighting, so we decided to chase them away. Then they ran away and we came back to Mr Mayisa's house. After seven o' clock that group came back in large numbers. They came back in large numbers with petrol bombs. Some of us ran away for safety. Then we remained. So we were attacked. Those people came to attack Mr Mayisa's, Chief Mayisa's house, throw petrol bombs on it. We were still many in the house. Upon realising that the house was on fire those that were around ran away from home. So we were still getting water from the pump, but water was not enough. So we failed to distinguish the fire. So we ran away through the roof and left Chief Mayisa and his wife at home. The following Sunday evening we got a message that Mr, Chief Mayisa is late.
MR MALAN: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you Mr Nkabinde. I mean, you are giving us the information leading up historically largely over a very large period or long period of time whereas the purpose here really is to listen to your story in terms of the gross human rights violations perpetrated to you. So if I can ask you to be brief in your accounting of the history and really come up to the situation which is the subject matter of your statement, because that is the purpose here. I will appreciate it.
MR NKABINDE: Okay, I am coming back to my story now. Somebody told me that the vigilante group have now decided that I was the next on the line so I had to run away. Then I just decided that, no, I have to go, run for my safety in one of the new stands, the houses. I ran to my families friend, friend's family. On the 13th of January after the killing of Mr Mayisa ... one of the hosts responded to the knock and told them to come in. So one of the first people to get in named Michen Farmer said, he mentioned my name and said that they wanted to see me. So the hosts were surprised to hear that why was I, why was those people looking for me.
Then when I woke up the group of people who got into the house then came to me and told me that they have been sent by Mr Zondo to come and collect me, because he wanted to talk to me. Thereafter, okay, I joined them, I left with them. After about 100m they started hitting me, telling me that it is long that they have been warning me about these things, but I was not listening. So they took me to Mr Zondo's house. Upon our arrival it was said that they had to take me, but I did not know where I was being taken to and on the way I was being beaten, was taken to the ground. Then I started asking them what is happening. Mr Zondo told me that it is long that they have been talking to me, but I was not responsive. So they took me along. They took me to the graveyard.
Upon our arrival Mr Zondo said that I should be killed, because if I can be left and I am their enemy, I am going to kill them if I am not being killed. So I was assaulted by pangas and so on, but fortunately I survived. I was taken to the hospital. I have got even the documents. In the end when I was not feeling any pain I no longer, I had, one of the brothers, Zondo brothers came and told them that seeing that they know me, why do they not just beat me and leave me, because there, it is not going to help them, because I am from, I am a local person, because according to their plans they were looking for the outsiders and he also told them that if they failed to do that, he was going to do it personally.
After I was beaten he asked me that I had to choose how I, how do I want to be killed. So they closed my eyes and he put a gun on my head and told me that I am going to die. Then I apologised to them. Then one of them who was having the pangas, looking at me, he was ready as if, he stood as if he was ready to kill so I apologised to him and asked him why should he be like this. Sam Zondo came back to me, came back to them and told them that, no, it is okay, they should leave me, they should not kill me. He talked to them and then they understood. After a long discussion I saw one woman coming to me who saw me when I was taken. So that person went home to report the matter to my parents. Then my mother came and then she apologised on my behalf and took me along to, back home.
Then my mother talked to me and told me that, no, if I want to survive, go on with my life then I have to abandon my group. When I arrived I found Bishop Makwane and the lawyer, Priscilla Jana, and other names that have been mentioned. They took me to the doctor. From there I was taken to the police station to lay charges against the people who assaulted me. Then I was taken to Welgespruit. That is how my story goes.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much Mr Nkabinde. I have just a few questions in my mind and they relate somewhat to the background information. In your statement you say that you suspect you were taken by these people simply because you were related to Chief Ampie Mayisa, but at the same time your statement tells us that you were active, at some stage you were Chairperson of the Youth League or the youth movement here and in your statement, also, you tell us that at some stage you were arrested, detained for a while and initially charged or at least you were suspected of being involved in the burning of councillors' homes and in some other activities. Now, Mr Abel Nkabinde also gave us a background to this. I will tell you so you can just understand why I am putting this question to you. The Act says we must try to find out the context which is partly what Mr Able Nkabinde gave us. He said that there indeed was a fight, that some of the councillors' homes were burnt down, business' were burnt down by the youth, some of the councillors were eliminated, murdered. You were on the other side. Was it a suspicion or did you have knowledge or was the activity of the youth movement really only limited to formal boycotts of education, of mobilising people against the removals. From where you were can you tell us a little about the broader context?
MR NKABINDE: Thank you. Amongst everything that has been said, it was the burning of the councillors' houses, stopping of the removals. In the whole struggle, actually, I was involved and actually I was in the leadership. So what I am thinking of is that those are amongst other things that had led to my being the target.
MR MALAN: So, just to get the context, it was really a war-type situation. It was a two way conflict and I will tell you why I am asking that, because all the statements we have before us today only talk about the suffering of one side of this conflict and we do not get the other side. I do not really know why, it may be because of our infrastructure, because of the way we are going about it, it may be because of others not trusting the Truth Commission, not wanting to come forward, it may simply be that they are not around anymore, but it is very difficult to form a background and balanced picture on only one side of the conflicts statements. So you are supporting basically the background information that Mr Abel Nkabinde gave us, that it was a two-way fight?
MR NKABINDE: Yes, it is so. All the people that are here to give evidence are from one side so we cannot see the other group. We do not really know what is happening.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much for that information. Then just one other question again. In your statement you refer to one of the perpetrators as a Mr Siphiwe Morojane. Is that the same person, I hope you were here this morning when Mrs Ndlovu gave evidence, is that the same person whose house was burnt down or whose business was burnt down?
MR NKABINDE: No, Siphiwe Makachane is not the one you are referring to. This is the younger, is the young one, the one whose house was burnt was the councillor, but they share the same name.
MR MALAN: Is he related to the councillor, this Sipho?
MR NKABINDE: That I am not sure of.
MR MALAN: Okay. Thank you very much for sharing and also the straight forward way in which you replied to questions. I thank you for that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Wynand. Joyce Seroke, Tom Manthata.
MR MANTHATA: Sorry, you talk of the demands, you talk about the demands which if not met you would not go back to school. Which were those demands in short?
MR NKABINDE: Okay, briefly what I can explain is that in this township we did not have the developed school. Our schools were shacks. Another thing was that, that was giving us a problem was that in Leslie you would go to school up to standard six. If you have to further your studies you have to go to another place, you have to go to another area. Another, moreover the facilities and the equipment needed, we did not have any equipment and facilities and even the furniture itself, we did not have. So we were forced that if you have to go to school you have to take this, you have to take the chair from your home. The board they have to pay, taking the ceilings, painting, painted in order for them to write on something. So we demanded that the Government will have to do something just like any other thing that is being done in the other townships.
MR MANTHATA: As my last question will be along the lines of Mr Malan. At some stage it sounded as though the people we were saying were harassing people, making it difficult for the people are still around here in Leandra and my question is if so, have you got an idea why they have not submitted their statements to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? I was saying right through the hearings there was an impression that the people who were on the other side, let me put it that way, that is that you were fighting with are still around in Leandra. Now I was just asking for your opinion whether you know why they have not submitted their statements or they have not even appeared before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. If it is a difficult question do not answer, please. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Wynand.
MR MALAN: May I take the same line in a different way, Mr Nkabinde. You know some of the people are still around. We know that we have not received their statements. You come from a history of leadership, of youth leadership through the struggle. Could I just ask you to consider, you do not have to answer now, but approaching some of these people simply to make also their statements to the Truth Commission so that we can also acknowledge their pain, just in an impartial way, because they also suffered, as you have acknowledged, and would you not think such an approach by you specifically, with a leadership record, would not perhaps lead to a major effort of reconciliation in this area. Would you consider such an approach?
MR NKABINDE: I do not know, because as it is said that most of those people are here and most of them are in the police force. They are employed by the local police station. So what I am thinking of is that most of them are afraid of coming forward, because during that time we were not known, but now that they are policemen, because they are afraid that maybe they are going to reveal the truth.
MR MALAN: Okay, but I will just leave you with the idea of taking an initiative which you take upon yourself, again as a leader in this community with a proven track record to see if you could not contribute to reconciliation and forgiveness by also getting them to become part of our processes. I do not need an answer, I am just leaving you with a suggestion and thank you once again for coming forward.
CHAIRPERSON: Joyce, did you want to? Yes. Mr Nkabinde, could I just add to that by taking a slightly different line, because what you have told us has been a very, you have expressed very clearly what has been a very dreadful experience for you and you have done what a lot of people have not been able to do. You have actually survived and you are still young and what you have survived is actually the vision of death, because you were very close to being killed, were you not. So you have an experience now which you are able to pass on and what I would say is that you clearly are, if I work it out correctly, you are still in your 20's. You have a very exciting, long life ahead of you. You are in a position of leadership, you have had what is essentially a very unique experience and I would put to you that your responsibility as a new leader, as part of the new leadership in our country is to think about that experience and take it forward as a responsibility to react, possibly in the way that Wynand has suggested in terms of reaching the people whom we have not been able to reach. It is something that we cannot do anything other than ask you to do that, but on the basis of the, the basis of the experience and also on the basis of the strength that you have shown in coming forward now and talking about that experience. I would like to offer it as well and at the same time say thank you very much for coming and thank you to your father for joining you. Thank you.
