CHAIRPERSON:: Before I welcome Thalitha Sekhaulelo, you are so welcome. You have brought somebody with you. Are both of them going to speak. We need two headboxes if you could help us with that please, two earphones, thank-you we have that. Do we have Thalitha and Demakatsu with us? Rachel both of you are going to speak so both of you have to take the oath. I'm going to ask that both of you stand please with your hands in the air and I'm going to ask Ms Seroke to conduct the oath.
MS SEROKE: The story that you are about to tell is the truth and nothing else but the truth so help me God.
MS THALITHA L SEKHAULELO AND RACHEL;: (sworn states)
MR PIET MEIRING;: Thank you so much I would like to hand you over to Dr Randera who will assist you in telling your stories
DR FAZEL RANDERA;: Thalita and Rachel good afternoon, you have come to talk about your son Ronnie who was killed in 1986 by the Bophuthatswana Police in Hammanskraal. Now both of you made the statement Thalitha in the statement you say it was Rachel who was there who saw the incident but before we get to that perhaps you can tell us about Ronnie, how old he was at the time, what was he doing, what was happening in the area, was he involved in any political organization as such. Was he involved in any political organization.
THALITHA SEKHAULELO: : Ronnie is my sister's child. He was a member of COSAS at that time there was a middle school which was recently opened by Zacherema Katleng. At that time Ronnie was not at school because of certain reasons. On the 10th of February at that school there was an unrest by students where they were lodging some complaints. It was around 9 o'clock in the morning, I was day off then, I'm working at Ellerines Furniture Shop in Warmbaths, Ronnie passed with his friends, there were two they were passing next to my house, I called to him, then I said to him come here where are you going. He said to me sister I'm coming back I'm going somewhere down there. I said to him I'm requesting that you should not go there I was highly pregnant, I want to send you to the shop because I was busy with washing. He came to me when he arrived I gave him money that he must go and buy paraffin he went to the shop and bought those things, when he came back I requested him to make tea for me, he went to the kitchen, he did that. We sat under the tree and drank the tea. It was cloudy on that day, after we drank tea he went back to the kitchen and washed the cups and I continued with my washing. After some time a certain child came to me, I don't remember his name well, then he said to me Ronnie Kokalise is calling you, by then at school there was an unrest at school and we are not staying far from that school. When he said Kokalise is calling you I asked that boy what is he calling for they said he is asked to chop some wood then I released him then said when you finish come back I want you to accompany me somewhere. He agreed and then he went, by then it was around 11 o'clock. I was staying with my younger brother who was doing standard seven in that middle school. He was coming home for lunch. After the boy left with Ronnie to chop some woods police vans were passing, there were seven vans at Bedwang Police Stations, we used to call them pigs, they were looking like pigs and this big police vans were passing it was the direction of the school and others were parking next to the bus stop. Ronnie left, when that child came back for break he called me from a distance whilst I was busy washing. He said the police are beating Ronnie.
DR FAZEL RANDERA:: Thalitha just take your time. Can we give her some water to drink. Thalitha are you able to continue?
THALITHA SEKHAULELO: : I left my washing then I went to that bus stop this incident was happening at the main bus stop at Severence Gate, at a distance I was seeing police beating with batons and sjamboks and iron bars. When I arrived there they were picking Ronnie to police van. After they throw him to that police van there were three boys a girl and continued with them I passed there and went to that police van the certain policeman passed some aspersions because my reason was just only to see Ronnie.
DR FAZEL RANDERA:: Rachel would like to go elsewhere, does she feel comfortable sitting and listening, she's very, very upset I can see that. Do you think one of the briefers should take Rachel out? Thank you. Sorry if you could continue Thalitha.
MS THALITHA SEKHAULELO:: When I arrived at that van Ronnie was inside that van and he was lying, his leg was curled as if it is broken and he was wearing tackies and he was wearing a (indistinct) and a lumber and a shirt and a sporty. I picked, I handled his leg and I said to Ronnie, Ronnie then he didn't respond, then I did that again and then he didn't respond. After that I saw a policeman called Kavambo who spoke me harshly, he said why do you call this boy. I said I should call him I want to find out what you did to him, he said leave that cow then I just stood there then he said I will hit your stomach that you should give birth now, then I held my ground whilst they were still busy beating those people the rain started to rain. They assaulted those three boys, kicking them and put them in the police van again and they took them. It was raining now then I went back home at around 4 o'clock I said I should go to my aunt because Ronnie's mother was working, to find out what was happening to Ronnie otherwise we should divide means to find out.
When I arrived there Ronnie's sisters were cooking and they were dishing out, they were saying we should dish out for Ronnie he'll come back and eat, my aunt said don't dish out for him because you don't know what time he'll be back it was round 7 then I went back home. I slept, tomorrow morning around 6 o'clock I went back to my aunt to find out what was happening and phoned Ronnie's mother to come. At my aunt's gate I found two people standing there I didn't greet them, when they saw me they bowed down their heads then I went into my aunt's home I greeted my aunt then I said what are they saying? Then he said Ronnie has died. Then they said I should go and phone Ronnie's mother that he should come home and phone other relatives to come. At that time when I left the police came. This thing happened on Monday, on Tuesday is then that we informed Ronnie's mother that their is a problem. They took my aunt to that place, what was surprising is that those police, when they came to tell us that Ronnie has died, they were telling us limitations that they don't want people to attend the funeral and that Ronnie should be buried by the family only and that he should not be buried during the week, during the weekend. On the day when they said they are bringing him, we were preparing for to bury him on the weekend. Then they said he should be buried on Wednesday. It was only the family which attended the funeral. In Ronnie's clothes, they were not complete, other clothes have disappeared. They didn't allow us when they brought the corpse that we should see it. The car which was carrying the corpse was full of blood. They asked my sister that they should go and sit on the blood and that Ronnie is not going to be brought in the house. I don't as well if it was Ronnie or not. They were harsh and the time when we were burying Ronnie, they came with there different cars. My sisters house was surrounded by the police.
During that time the family attended the funeral with that van, with the coffin on that blood and my sister was staying on that blood, we didn't know whose blood was that. That's all.
DR RANDERA:: Thank you Thalitha. It's still very painful, this whole experience. Does Rachel want to say anything - your sister? Oh sorry, that's Rachel. My apologies. Does Thalitha want to say anything?
MS SEKHAULELO:: Yes, I want to say a few words. I was not there. There is nothing more I can say - what I can say (tape ends)......
........ is the cops. I was angry, I said to the police who came, then I said to them, I should stand up and take the corpse and bury it myself because I don't know what my child did or he has stolen something or he has murdered something.
When the cops came, on the head, it was swollen, at the back of the head there was a big gash. Under in his private parts there was a gash. When the following day when we were supposed to go to the cemetery, I don't know as what it was the hearse or what, it was a car which didn't have windows and it was blood-stained. I denied to climb on that car.
My relatives said that I should climb on because they would start shooting. I climbed on that car but the car was blood-stained. I don't know what kind of blood was that. I was sitting in a dam of blood. My child was buried by the family only. We buried him during the week.
They denied that the minister should conduct the night vigil, they denied that we should take him to church. The second thing, I want to find out what did, where did they take his clothes to. The shoes, the socks.
DR RANDERA:: Thalitha, Ronnie was nineteen years old at the time. Was he your only son?
MS SEKHAULELO:: I have two children, two boys and the other one is still alive, and two daughters.
Ronnie left school with certain reasons because I could not afford to take him further. Then he said to me - "Let me leave school and look for work". He went to apply to be a soldier. He was taken by Mr Porfu and that person has since died.
Ronnie filled his applications there, then they said they'll come in April and fetch you. When they came in April, they found out Ronnie was murdered and was buried. That was all.
DR RANDERA:: Can I just ask Rachel, Rachel on the day that you saw the beating taking place of Ronnie and you went up to the police vehicle and you shaked him and you said there was no response did you feel already then that Ronnie had passed away?
RACHEL:: At the time when I was calling him and not responding I thought he has fainted I was not worried with that, because the time will come that he will be conscious, maybe if they stayed longer I could have discovered that he has died. DR RANDERA: Can I just ask you mention the name of two friends in your statement, Kidebone Magou and Jack Sono who were with Ronnie at the time when he was arrested and this beating was taking place, and they were the ones who came back to you the next day I think it was and said that Ronnie had passed away, what was when you spoke to them, did they say that Ronnie was with them after the police left you? What was their story?
RACHEL:: When the time the police were beating Jack Sono and Kidebone Magou Ronnie was thrown already in the van. When they came in the morning from the police station I don't know as they were brought or what, but the time when I went to my aunt this when they had to during the night as when they had something that is when this boys left my aunt's house. We met on the road I didn't say anything to them, but when I looked at them they bowed their heads. I didn't say anything then they left then I proceeded in the house. I didn't say anything to them , they didn't say anything to me.
DR RANDERA:: Subsequent to the, to everything did you not speak to them? After the funeral since then?
RACHEL:: After the funeral I did discuss something with them I asked them that when he left the village where did he go? They said when they arrived at Temba police station they were taken to the cells. They didn't know that when they were put in the cells where did they take Ronnie to. That proved to me that when they took the two boys to the cells the police discovered that Solly has died then took him to the mortuary, because during the night they didn't see him they were told in the morning when they were released that Ronnie has died.
DR RANDERA :: Ronnie was a COSAS member and a student activist was that the first time that he'd had a run in with either the Bop police or the South African security police or any other police for that matter? Had he ever been arrested before, harassed prior to this occasion?
RACHEL:: No, this incident was the first one.
DR RANDERA :: In my last question to both of you, was there a charge laid against the police ?
RACHEL:: No. The way it was there was no way in which we could lay a charge against the police because there was my cousin who was working in Mafekeng he was a soldier or police I don't remember, when we were sitting down discussing this kind of issues he raised the issue that there is no docket which has been opened that what Ronnie has died. There is nothing what Ronnie has done so we were discouraged by the fact that those police who came to arrest Ronnie, the following day when they came to report that Ronnie has died are not the same police who came yesterday who were assaulting him, they were different police, so we didn't have the possibility to open the case because we didn't have the direction. DR RANDERA: You mention the name of a policeman at the time that Ronnie was being beaten can you, do you know whether this policeman is still working in Hammanskraal area, have you seen him again?
RACHEL:: The one whom I saw is - has been crippled on the hand I don't know what is right or left is Mr Malibe, the one who is Kavambo who is at Temba police station, I don't know where he is now, the other one who is stationed at Bedwang who is Kitse I last saw him that time I don't where he is.
DR RANDERA:: Thank you to both of you for your honest answers . DR ALLY: Thank you, just one or two questions. You say that, you said that there was no post-mortem done so you have no medical, you were never given a death certificate?
MS SEKHAULELO:: They gave us a death certificate but it was not written on it there were no reasons for his death, they didn't write anything on it.
DR ALLY:: What did they say cause of death.
MS SEKHAULELO:: They didn't write cause of death on the certificate. DR ALLY: Did you include a death certificate when you made your statement? Did you give us a copy? When you made your statement did you include in your statement a death certificate, because we don't have any records of a death certificate in the statement that we've got.
MS SEKHAULELO:: The day they came to take statements they, we did give them a copy we showed them the copy of the certificate, because they just said he has died instantly.
DR ALLY:: You gave a copy of the death certificate to the statement taker or you showed it to them .
MS SEKHAULELO:: We didn't give them a copy of the death certificate. DR ALLY: It is important for us if we are going to follow this up if you can give us a copy of the death certificate that would help us, and then there was no inquest either? No court.
MS SEKHAULELO:: Nothing Sir.
DR ALLY:: And just to be absolutely clear now the three names that you mentioned here, Kavambo, Kitse and Malebu, those are people who you saw the times Ronnie was being beaten that they were actually present and that they were doing the beating as well and involved in it.
MS SEKHAULELO:: I saw them they were beating, those were the police who were a problem at (...indistinct). Every time when during the former government you were not allowed to sell liquor or something those were the police we used to see all the time when the shebeens were raided in our area.
DR ALLY:: Before the incident and that's why when Ronnie was MS SEKHAULELO: Yes I knew them before this incident.
DR ALLY:: That's how when, that's how you recognised them again when, when they were beating Ronnie on that day.
MS SEKHAULELO:: That's true Sir.
DR ALLY:: Thank you very much it would help where we will certainly follow up on this and we have sent letters to these, at least to the police stations where these people were last stationed and that's what we have to do when people are mentioned as perpetrators when allegations are made, but it will help us also if you, if you get any new information as to the whereabouts of these people, exactly where they based, if you get that information to pass it on to us because what often happens is this is almost more than ten years ago and they move from police station to police station so we can only send the letter to the last known address. So if you find out anything more it would help us, but we have informed the police of these three individuals or at least informed the, written letters to the police stations where they were last based to say that their names have been mentioned and to ask them to respond to these allegations and when we hear something we will certainly inform the family ,but thank-you very much.
MS SEROKE:: You said there was no hairs, who bought the coffin then? I paid everything for the funeral.
MR PIET MEIRING:: Thalitha, Rachel if I may call you that, we have listened to your story you've taken us back eleven years in history, but we can see, we heard that the wounds are still open that it is very painful. We saw your tears, we listened to your story and you can know that each and everyone in this hall are with you and are feeling with you, we do hope that by, in time the wounds will be healed you can know that your son has not died in vain. There were many other children, young people, older students who died during the past, but he did not die in vain. We really pray that the Lord will bless you and that you will find rest.
We've taken note of everything you told us as far as is humanly possible we'll try and trace the people, find out what really happened and hopefully we will be able to present you with new facts at some stage we will try our level best. Thank you please take our blessing and our greetings to the rest of the family. Thank you for coming.
Before we leave for lunch, it is nearly time for lunch, there is one important announcement that Ms Joyce Seroke would like to make to you. Please listen carefully to what she is saying.
MS JOYCE SEROKE:: Since we arrived here most people said that they submitted their statement but they wonder why they don't appear in front, we want to explain one thing to you that it is not everyone that has submitted a statement who is going to appear in the hearings, as you see the dates here and the places we only choose the events that took place in a certain time and at certain places. Just to reflect the kinds of violations that happened in such places is not possible for us to afford everyone who submitted a statement to come and appear before the convention and secondly if you don't appear and have submitted your statement it doesn't mean that your statement is not important. What is more important than to appear before the commission is that statement that you have submitted, because that statement gives the information to the TRC to know about which violations occurred in this area, of the former Bophuthatswana so that the commission on its own when making it's report can give an indication of what happened and on the violations that took place. That's why even right now we have people who are still taking statements. These statements are going to be taken up until December only the hearers are in the in June, but the statements are still welcome that is all we need and that is what is important for us. This is all I want to explain to those people who asked us why don't they appear in front whilst they had submitted their statements. I must repeat again that your statements are very important and those are the documents from which we'll make recommendations at the end of the Truth Commission.
MR PIET MEIRING:: Just a moment please sit down just for another moment. Can I just hear Puleng Lebopo, did this person come? Not come, Mothomone Masola also not arrived and Matlodi Fedibana, Matlodi Fedibana not arrived and Mafatima Maluleka also not arrived. After lunch the first person to be called then will be Betty Skhosana, Betty Skhosana the first person after lunch. We do break now, ja please leave your earphones and the boxes on the chairs in front of you. Can we please be back at quarter past two, at 2.15pm all of us back in the room. Thank you very much.
HEARING ADJOURNS
