DR RANDERA: May I please call Samson Kodibona. Samson, good afternoon.
MR KODIBONA: Good afternoon.
DR RANDERA: Thank you for coming. Samson you are taking us back to 1978 and 1984. Before I hand over the Doctor Ally who’s going to be helping you with your statement, can I ask you to please stand to take the oath.
MISS SEROKE: Will you repeat after me. The story I’m about to tell is the truth and nothing else but the truth, so help me God.
SAMSON M KODIBONA: (sworn states)
DR RANDERA: Dr Ally !
DR ALLY: Samson thank you for coming and welcome. You’re gonna speak about your experiences which relate to, to being tortured because of the political views you held and, and you political activities and you’re gonna describe two incidents as the Chairperson said, in ‘78 the first and then again in 1984. So I’m going to ask you to go through what actually happened to you and to focus specifically on the kind of torture that you were subjected to.
MR KODIBONA: It was in 1978. I met with three men. From their looks they were travelling on a van which was a police car. It looked like they were CID’s. It was in the morning when I met them. I used to train in the morning. When I met them they stopped and I just continued running and I running towards, I ran towards their direction. When I reached them, they didn’t talk much. They grabbed me and then they took me out of the way just a distance from, from the road. They started torturing me, asked me questions. They were asking me about people like Peter Nchabaling, Nelson Diyali, Mr Inkadimeng, Mr Pokanuka, Mr Parlo. I would say that I told them that I didn’t know the people they were asking me about. From there they tortured me, hitting me and they interrogated me. They took me and they put a net over my head and they put me back into the van. Then I travelled with them but I couldn’t see exactly as to where we were going. When we arrived at this place, I still had the net on my head. They again questioned me as to whether I knew the people they asked me about. They asked me how do I know them.
I didn’t exactly know these people. I stayed there for the whole day until late in the afternoon and then they took off the net and I could now see or recognize the place I was in. It was a place in Stierpoort. Again they put the net over my head and they throw me into the van and they drove me back from where I came and they left me at the scene where they found me. Where they found me, it was a main road from Skukune towards the Skukune Magistrate Offices. I will say it’s a place calls Pathlamanole.
I went back home. When I arrived back home and I reported the matter my front teeth were broken. Some of them have just cracked. At the time I told my parents. My parents took this issue as a general issue. Normally, that normally happens that young boys go around and provoke other people. This worried me a lot. I continued schooling. At school we used to discuss things like uprisings, the 1966 riots and other political activities which happened during the early 50’s. It was not just a place where there were riots and boycotts. It was calm. We’re just school children and we are attending school properly and there there wasn’t any, any other problem. Normally when it comes to politics only a few individuals were involved and I would say this worried me a lot. After a stage where I came to believe that police were not good people and they’re not people of good manners and I stayed with my cousin, two cousins and we used to hand around together. They used to guide me. They said, and they guarded me that we have to continue studying and they have to go behind me in trying to guide me as to how to go around life. However they could see that I wasn’t spiritually well. From there I couldn’t in my life trust a policeman and especially the old government which I could say was undemocratic and that continued with myself hating the system until I was grown up and I was motivated by teachers whom I’ve told, to whom I’ve told my story.
Early 1984 I grew up with this spirit, this political spirit. I was a kind of person who like provoking the old government or the regime. Actually I’m saying that I wasn’t the kind of person who liked to provoke them. I couldn’t understand why they started around harassing me. It was until 1985, I was working at the air force, a base force. This was the South African Defence Force days and the police which we call them Sadaf, meaning SADF. I worked with a man by the name of Mr Ferguson who was my Lieutenant. This man was a kind of man who didn’t like African people. They usually called me terrorist. That became my name. They never called me by my real name. They usually referred to me as a terrorist. Up until the stage where, while we were working under such conditions. In 1984, we had to quarrel because they called me a terrorist and I had to tell them that I am not a terrorist, I am Samson Kodibona but they continued calling me a terrorist.
They have to move me to another place where I had to work for, at 24 Squadron. This the kind of an air force base where all those types of planes normally land and even they, they continued calling me a terrorist and I wasn’t free as I was going around doing my job. Normally there will be people who come around and watch me while doing the job. They also had the spirit that they have to remove me from where they were working because they regarded me as a terrorist. In 1985, February on the seventh, I was called to the office. They gave me a letter and I had to take this letter to an office and when I arrived they have it was sealed and they have to open it. I was in the company of my brother. He was also working in the library at the very same place. They didn’t tell me anything after reading the letter. They have to tell me that I have to go because I am a terrorist. They, after clapping, they clapped me and told me that I had to leave the place because I am a terrorist. From there they told me to come and collect my money the following week.
I went to collect the money at the end of the month. It was just some few rands and I took the money and went to Pretoria. As I was there I wasn’t free because I was being monitored. My movements were monitored and I have to leave Pretoria and go back home. That was 1985. Even there I wasn’t free at home because some people were following me. The criminal investigating officers were around trying to trace my whereabouts and my involvements.
DR ALLY: Thank you, Samson. You, you’ve given us quite a comprehensive statement and you’ve also given us quite a detailed account now so I’m not gonna ask you too many questions but one thing which is still not clear is why, why were they so interested in you? You don’t, you, you mention that they asked you about certain well know political figures like Peter Nchabalengo, we know, actually who died in a police cell during interrogation and detention. In fact that was one of the cases that we heard when were in, in Pietersberg but why you? What, were you an activist? Did you belong to organizations ? That doesn’t come out very clearly.
MR KODIBONA: I can say that early June 1976 during the uprisings, we, we used to meet with people from, young guys from Soweto and they, they have to come to our homes and we had to sit down and discuss politics some times. We didn’t know that amongst us there might have been spies who were information and giving them to the Security Forces. I was surprised when I got arrested in 1978. I was arrested on the way. When I went further trying to investigate as to why I have to go to Petro Mekato, they said maybe it’s because they hate the things that we discuss and someone might be taking the information and giving over to the police. I think our problem was that we were so eager to gain, to know more about politics and anything about politics in Afrikaans and the intimidation by the old system in our education.
DR ALLY: In your statement you speak about thinking about going to join Unkontowesiswe going into political exile. Was this something that was part of those discussions that, that you have just now referred to ? That, that you, that you’d indicated in these discussions that you were perhaps thinking of going to join MK?
MR KODIBONA: I would say, early 1978 I realized that this thing of staying around here with police following me isn’t a good thing so I have to cross the country and fight as a nation soldier to defend my people and myself.
DR ALLY: But you didn’t go into exile ?
MR KODIBONA: Yes, I did go to exile.
DR ALLY: When did you, when did you leave ?
MR KODIBONA: I, I left in 1978.
DR ALLY: .And when you come back ?
MR KODIBONA: I came back in 1981, June.
DR ALLY: And then the interest of the security police in you continued again ?
MR KODIBONA: After I came back, when I tried to find out whether they used to come, I was told that they used to come. In 1981 I left the place and went to Pretoria. In 1982 I started working at a place which was a contract employment. In 1983, August I worked at the (...indistinct) Force.
DR ALLY: Can you just tell us a bit about what happened between the time that you left, end of ‘78 and when you came back ? Did you actually go for military training ?
MR KODIBONA: We went to some military training and we just to go and learn more about politics at, in Bulgaria. When we had to learn a lot about Communism. Economics and many other subjects.
DR ALLY: So you came back into the country as a member of the underground then, as a member of MK when you, when you came back ?
MR KODIBONA: I operated as an underground agent, yes.
DR ALLY: Now, these people who they asked you about. Did you have, did you just know about them or did you have contact with them ? Like Peter Nchabalenge for example ?
MR KODIBONA: I don’t have any information about them and I didn’t have that much link. I didn’t meet them that often. I would say that in our area in Skukune, since 1958 there were uprisings and there were ANC people there and that’s, I think that’s the reason why they would go around searching for people like me. Or people who know much about the senior leaders like Peter Nchabalenge and Mr Diyale.
DR ALLY: Just one last question. The torture that you were subjected to. Has it left any long-term, have there been long-term consequences ? What, what effect has it had on you in the, in, in the long term do you think ?
MR KODIBONA: I don’t understand the question clearly.
DR ALLY: The torture that you were subjected to because you speak about being quite severely tortured. What have the results of this torture been in the long term ? Are you still affected by it ? Do you still feel traumatized by it ? Has it affected your health in any way ?
MR KODIBONA: I would say that before I had the problem that they’ve broken my teeth. When I was out normally the air will enter into the teeth cavities and it was painful. I had a, I didn’t get a chance to get them re-filled and somewhere in 1987 to ‘89, I managed to get them re-filled. I’m not really sure but I didn’t have any problems. I’m, I’m not sure about the future when I get forty how, how I will be.
DR ALLY: Thank you very much.
DR RANDERA: Miss Seroke !
MISS SEROKE: Samson, what are you doing at the moment ?
MR KODIBONA: I am a Priest at the moment.
MISS SEROKE: Do you have a family ?
MR KODIBONA: Yes I do.
MISS SEROKE: How many children do you have ?
MR KODIBONA: I have got one child.
MISS SEROKE: Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata !
MR MANTHATA: Samson I would like to, to take you back. You said when they came to arrest you while doing a road work, what year was that ?
MR KODIBONA: It was 1978.
MR MANTHATA: During that year, 78, if I understand you well, they asked you about people Pala, Pinta, Peter Nchabaleng, Chuganuga. Is that true ?
MR KODIBONA: Yes, that’s correct. They asked me about these people.
MR MANTHATA: Can you explain further, at the moment Chuganuga was in prison.
MR KODIBONA: As much as I know in politics, at the time while they were investigating about this, they wanted to know whether the children at Skukuna have information about ANC politics, about the ANC strategies to pull down, to bring down the government.
MR MANTHATA: The way you explain, it looks like they just picked you up ?
MR KODIBONA: I would say yes, that happened. I was so surprised too because they didn’t ask me much about the information that they have. They only me, ask me about these people. Whether I know them or not and I told them that I don’t know these people.
MR MANTHATA: At that moment were, were you actively involved in politics or some relatives who were actively involved or who could brief you about politics ?
MR KODIBONA: To say about my family, I would say I had family members. They didn’t tell me much but at school we had teachers who taught us much about politics and they were, some of them were members of SASO. One of them whom I know at the time was Stanley Mogoba and brothers of my mother.
MR MANTHATA: What did you know about Stanley Mogoba at that time ?
MR KODIBONA: We knew Stanley Mogoba as a person who was imprisoned because his, of his political involvement but we didn’t know much about him.
MR MANTHATA: At the time where was Stanley ?
MR KODIBONA: If I remember well he was in jail at that time. If I remember well it looks like he was.
MR MANTHATA: He was in a seminar and he was training to be a Priest. Or let’s leave that behind and go forth. This time in 1978, how long was it since these people, Tata Chabeling and others came back ? How long was it from the time they came from prison ?
MR KODIBONA: I won’t know much about that because what I know is that these people were arrested and I didn’t have any close link with them.
MR MANTHATA: Let’s leave that too. You said from there you got some work. Where did you work ?
MR KODIBONA: I worked at Berco Driegoed in Pretoria and Silverton.
MR MANTHATA: What kind of work were you doing ?
MR KODIBONA: I was a carpenter.
MR MANTHATA: Didn’t you at any time in your life join the South African Defence Force ? I heard that you might have joined the force.
MR KODIBONA: I didn’t join any of the Departs, Security Department, under the National Government. I just, I just worked as an ordinary me, member of the society.
MR MANTHATA: You said that you went into exile in 1978 and came back in 1984.
MR KODIBONA: Yes, I went on 1978 and came back 1991, June.
MR MANTHATA: Is it true you went out 19.. .
MR KODIBONA: I went to exile in 1978, I came back in 1981, June.
MR MANTHATA: When you came back, what kind of operation were you doing as an underground agent ?
MR KODIBONA: I didn’t do anything, I just stayed at home and I just survey the situation....
MR MANTHATA: Thank you.
DR RANDERA: I have no further questions. I just want to remind ourselves that in 1978 when your first arrest took place and the torture that you underwent and the subsequent going into exile, you were only sixteen years old.
MR KODIBONA: I was seventeen years old.
DR RANDERA: Right, sixteen, seventeen. Thousands of our youth face the same situation as you. Leaving their homes, leaving their families, often leaving their education and going into exile. The Chairperson of our Commission has said many times that the democracy that we are in now, has had a heavy price and the heavy price having been paid by, by our, by our country but mostly by the youth of our country, must be recognized. We are planning throughout the country for offices of the Commission to have a special hearing on children and youth in June. Where we want to actually highlight and identify not only what the, the commitment and the sacrifices that youth made, but also the problems that have aminated from this. I think what, that’s one of the challenges of our new democracy as to how do we move from a country where in the 80’s youth actually became militarized to now move in into a country where we, we develop and respect new values. And I hope that you coming here to-day again has identified to us and to the community at large the price that you people paid. Thank you very much for coming.
