NGOATO MOTSEPE (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsepe, we welcome you. I want to know where are you staying.
MR MOTSEPE: I am staying at Moutse.
CHAIRPERSON: What are you doing?
MR MOTSEPE: I am working with the Civic Association. And I am running a pre-school project.
CHAIRPERSON: You are going to tell us about what happened on the 8th May 1987 when you visited your friend. We ask you to tell us what happened on that day.
MR MOTSEPE: On the 8th May, it was around 7 pm, I went to my friend Frans Nawe. After 30 minutes being with him I found him with Semlope and Solemo Sepe. Whilst we were still there we heard some sounds outside. When we were listening to those footsteps we saw a white policeman at the door. He was with other black policemen. What they did when they arrived there they asked me, because I was near the door, that they are looking for Frans Nawe whom I visited. When I answered them I said I don't know the name of that person because I am selling oranges, because I was sitting next to the crate. Then they asked Frans what was your name. Before they asked him they showed us their identity cards. There was no electricity at that time, we were using paraffin lamps. Then he looked at that, then they asked him what is your name, then he had to tell them their name.
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That time when they were asking there was one who was looking at me, then he said they must hold me with the belt and take me outside. They took me outside, they tightened my hands. After that they put me in a car and they drove towards Pitskraal road. When they arrived at the Marble Hall Matete road they turned left. That is the road which goes to Seobuswa. Before they arrived at Seobuswa they turned left again. Then I thought it is Habekwange. Then they stopped there. Then they asked me what is your name. I didn't tell them my name at that time because I didn't know whom I was talking to. Then they drove back to Komhlanga. When they arrived at Komhlanga I was beaten that night up to dawn the following day. They left me a little bit and they took off the sack cloth. The following day in the afternoon they took me again to beat me. They took me again to the cell. On the third day they did the same again, asking me as to whether did I know Frans Nawe and many other people, together with Chief Matebe. Then I said I know Chief Matebe as the chief. They told me that that is not true. You are a group of people who are telling the Moutse residents to deny to be ruled by the Kwandebele government. Then I told them that I don't know that one. The following day I was taken during the day around about ten they took me to their office and showed me an album. They were asking me people who were on those photos. Some of the people there I knew them. Then they said will you tell us where are they. I said no, I don't know. During that time when they were questioning me they were asking me about a certain car where they got it at a scrapyard and they found that car written that it is owned by me. Then I told them the real story that I was there and I did request
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the people at the scrapyard to come and pull the car. After two o'clock they left me and took me to the cell. Then the following day I was taken, they dropped me at Matete. I walked on foot to the taxi rank and there was no transport there. I looked for accommodation. The following day I went home. At home I stayed for a day then I went to Alexandra. Then I went to the clinic there. I was treated at the clinic. Then from there I came back home. I know that I completed three weeks. After those three weeks they came again and found me. They found me at Siphiwe Nchali's house. At that time Siphiwe was not there. He was imprisoned, then I was visiting his mother to find out how his wellbeing is. On that day I was taken and they beat me and left me on the road. Then I ran, I ran out of our village. That was the last time I saw them.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsepe when you were visiting your friend Nawe you met other people at Frans Nawe's place. Was there a meeting or was it just a social visit?
MR MOTSEPE: We didn't have any meeting. I hadn't seen him for a long time.
CHAIRPERSON: Where was he from? As you say you didn't see him for a long time.
MR MOTSEPE: He was taken people which means it shows that he was hiding himself somewhere, then he came back.
CHAIRPERSON: Which political organisation were you in at that time?
MR MOTSEPE: We were in the youth organisation. It was called Moutse Federation of Youth Congress.
CHAIRPERSON: What was this congress on about? What was it doing? What was your political activity?
MR MOTSEPE: It was working hand in hand with the Civic
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Association. It was formed after we were tortured by these people I have mentioned. Then thereafter we formed this federation. We were working hand in hand with UDF.
CHAIRPERSON: One of the reasons for the formation of that organisation is because you were tortured. Who was torturing you, was it the government or just people in the area?
MR MOTSEPE: I would say it is the government because we were tortured by people who wore a green uniform. That people were called kitskonstabels.
CHAIRPERSON: So these kitskonstabels were responsible for your torture?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So therefore you organised - what did you want to do so that you would be able to protect yourself? You said one of the reasons for the formation of this organisation was because you were assaulted and tortured. So you wanted that they should not continue to assault you. How did you think to protect yourself against these people?
MR MOTSEPE: It was to protect ourselves and to tell others that here we are not sleeping in peace. All the time we were sleeping in a forest because if you sleep at home they will come and fetch you.
CHAIRPERSON: Why were you raided?
MR MOTSEPE: We didn't do anything, they would just come in the village, particularly if you are a young man, they would just go home and ask your mother and say where are your boys then you will be taken and then be beaten. Then you will not be given a reason why.
CHAIRPERSON: When they took you then where did Frans go?
They took you alone and left Frans behind?
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MR MOTSEPE: Yes, they left him behind.
CHAIRPERSON: When they arrived they said they are looking for Frans now they took you. That shows that they didn't know him but they only knew his name. What made the police to say that you should be taken, did they know who you were?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, I believe that they knew me. I was arrested therefore I believed they knew me.
CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived there being beaten could you tell us how you were beaten and with what.
MR MOTSEPE: ... a pick handle because I was tied with the hands and the feet. I could not even tell how many people were beating me but there were many. These cars were many, I could hear. They used a pick handle and their knobkerries or the batons which are used by the police.
CHAIRPERSON: You said they showed you the albums which inside where photos of people and they asked me who were those people. What did they say these people did?
MR MOTSEPE: They didn't tell me what they have done, I was only told one thing. They just told me that those people in the album we didn't want Kwandebele to govern the Moutse community. That is the only thing they told me.
CHAIRPERSON: After that you went to Alexandra township so far to the clinic. Why didn't you use the local hospitals and clinics? What made you to go such a distance?
MR MOTSEPE: At that time if you went to the hospital it was the same as going to the police. They would be able to call the police to come and fetch you again.
CHAIRPERSON: I thank you, sir.
MS SEROKE: At that time what were you doing Ngoato?
MR MOTSEPE: Could you please repeat your question.
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MS SEROKE: Were you a student at the time or were you just unemployed?
MR MOTSEPE: I was not at school at the time. I was working at Elandsfontein at a certain contact but at the time the contract had expired.
MS SEROKE: When you started your federation ...
MR MOTSEPE: The main aim was to help the community because after a while this community, together with the Civic Association, they took the whole matter to the court of law. That is why I am saying we were prepared to help the community because after a while, after we took the whole matter to the court the people stopped beating us.
MS SEROKE: What did you actually take to the court of law? Did you report that you were assaulted or you told them that you had the problem of incorporation? Could you please explain to me.
MR MOTSEPE: Actually we told them about the problem of independence and incorporation because I think it is the reason why we were assaulted. Before those matters, there were no people beating us.
MS SEROKE: Actually did these people start to beat you before you went to court or after you took the matter to court did they continue beating you?
MR MOTSEPE: Actually they continued beating us but it was not as before.
MS SEROKE: Who actually was assaulting you?
MR MOTSEPE: The people who assaulted me were with Piet De Jager, a white policeman and one black guy who was called Magoma. They were together with this group of men who came to fetch me.
MS SEROKE: Was it not Mbcoto? Was it the SAP?
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MR MOTSEPE: I did not know them because they were not wearing a uniform.
MS SEROKE: The way we understand this whole matter it was like most people were beaten and assaulted in the whole community. You as the youth, did you know who were imprisoned or who were assaulted or who died at the time?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, it was possible to know in our own area. We knew if they took someone during the night and if people didn't come back.
MS SEROKE: After that what steps did you take?
MR MOTSEPE: We tried to see the lawyers to inform them that some of us were imprisoned. Most of those people didn't come back because it was during the state of emergency. They used to torture and assault us and sometimes people spent a few months in prison.
MS SEROKE: If I understood you well you as the youth you didn't take the law into your own hands and protect yourself by beating those people too.
MR MOTSEPE: No, we didn't do that.
MS SEROKE: Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Mr Motsepe I just want to come back to your statement and clarify a few things. You say when you were arrested part of the questioning was related to the death of the two policemen, two white policemen. Is it the Fouries that they were talking about or was it some other white policemen who had been killed?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, sir I think the issue or the whole matter of Fourie was the main issue because I was asked about that too. And when I replied to them I told them that I only saw that in the newspaper because I am staying far away in Moudete and they forced me they said I didn't see it in the
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newspaper I know it but they didn't tell me why they were forcing me.
DR RANDERA: How soon after the policemen were killed were you arrested?
MR MOTSEPE: I don't remember well but it was after some time after we knew about Fourie's death.
DR RANDERA: Weeks?
MR MOTSEPE: I think it is after months, not only one month. DR RANDERA: I just want to come back to the time that you were at Mr Nawe's house. Again in your statement you say he was a former MK member. Is that right?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, it is true.
DR RANDERA: We were also trying to find out about the involvement of MK in this area. Can you tell us a little about that.
MR MOTSEPE: What I know is that MK was protecting people in our area. They were helping people who were harassed and assaulted.
DR RANDERA: Was there more than one MK person in the area at the time?
MR MOTSEPE: I only knew one of the MK members.
DR RANDERA: Again from your statement in the questioning that took place you say that you were being asked about people who had left the country. Were you involved in taking people out of the country?
MR MOTSEPE: That was not my work, to help people to go outside the country. Those people thought I was doing that. DR RANDERA: But young people were leaving the country. You were aware of that.
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, people were just disappearing, we couldn't know where they were going to. Sometimes we would hear that
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they went to Zambia.
DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.
MR ALLY: Mr Motsepe, just to come back to the questions which Dr Randera posed to you. In your statement you speak about these events taking place on the 8th May 1987. Now the killing of Mr Fourie and his son is much later. Is there a mistake in the statement, in those dates or are you just a bit confused given that these events took place so long ago?
MR MOTSEPE: I think I have forgotten the actual dates but I am right about the questions which were asked to me but I think I am not right about the dates.
MR ALLY: Because if you were being questioned in connection with the killing of Mr Fourie and his son then it could not have been in May, it must have been later. So I think it is important that we clear up those factual issues. In your statement also you say that you were arrested and detained by Captain De Jager and constable Makongwa. Is that correct?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, that is true.
MR ALLY: You were arrested and detained. That is what you say in your statement but when Miss Seroke or Mr Manthata asked you about your torture you also mentioned Captain De Jager. Now what is it, are you saying you were arrested and detained by Captain De Jager as well as tortured or that you were simply arrested? I think it is very important that we get the factual record straight. Who tortured you?
MR MOTSEPE: Like I told you that I was detained. The people who dragged me out of the house was Captain De Jager and he was together with Makongwa. He is the one who showed us his identity card.
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MR ALLY: I said that is in your statement but you were asked later about being tortured, not about your arrest, and you then said Captain De Jager. Who tortured you?
MR MOTSEPE: It is all of them because I kept on hearing their voices, I couldn't see them because my head was covered. It was many of them. I couldn't see them but I heard their voices. Those two people I am sure they were there.
MR ALLY: So you couldn't see them because your head was covered but you think you heard their voices. Is that what you are saying?
MR MOTSEPE: Yes, it is like that.
DR RANDERA: Sorry, Mr Motsepe, in the light of what is happening at the moment do you have any more knowledge or information about the killing of the Fouries?
MR MOTSEPE: Up to now I don't know anything. I would like if I could hear something about that because I was assaulted because of them.
DR RANDERA: Thank you.
MR ALLY: Thank you very much for your statement, Mr Motsepe. We will see, we do have Captain De Jager here and when he has a chance to come to the witness stand we will ask him about this incident and what his views are and whether he wants to comment on these allegations which you have made about the arrest and the detention and assault. But thank you very much for your statement and for shedding some light on the incidents of that period. It is very important that we clear up some of the factual stuff, especially the dates which you mention in your statement. So I hope that with one of our statement takers we can clarify that and clear up that confusion. Thank you very much.
