Hearing opens with the singing of a hymn.
MR MALAN: Ladies and gentlemen, this is the third and the last day for the moment here in Petersburg. We will be hearing of seven witnesses today. They are here with us, they're sitting in the front here and I want to extend a special word of welcome to all the witnesses and their families with us, we hope that they will have a relaxed day despite the tensions that we know that they're bearing within them, my request and the request of us here at the table is for all of you to afford them the opportunity to relate their stories with dignity, it is a serious situation, and we would like you to accord them the courtesy and the order to us to conduct our task here with the fullest dignity we can possibly afford everybody.
I have a few matters that I want to relate to you.
The first is that we do have a translation service here which goes simultaneously with the testimony, so if there are any of you that would not be able to follow the language in which the witness is speaking to us, you can at the front here obtain a little receiving set with a head phone, please that is only for the people that cannot follow the language in which the testimony will be given, The translation service is into three languages and this little receiver has three channels, the first is Afrikaans, it's numbered on the left of the set here, the second channel is in English and the third is in Northern Sotho. Please do not take them out of the hall, they are of no value outside, but it is an expense to the Commission if they go lost. We lost five of them on Wednesday but we were very lucky here yesterday, with the cooperation of the public we didn't lose any, we got all of them back and I want to thank you all also for your assistance in that.
Then a few further requests, do not please keep your cell phones if you have any, switched on, that's a request from some of the people and please no flashlight photography at all, it's distracting to the witnesses and to us who have to listen to the witnesses.
The first will be Mathibela Molopo Johannes who will be giving evidence about him being shot and wounded. Dr Russel Ally will lead this witness. Then we have Mathee Committee Mahudu who will be giving evidence about torture and Professor Piet Meiring will be leading that. The third witness which we will hopefully complete before tea break will be Marule Klaas Mashabela and this will be about the burning of her house, where Tom Manthata will lead the witness.
You have on your programme Mrs Maditsi, but she already gave her testimony on Wednesday, so that you can take as having already been done. So after tea we will start with Nkoeneng happy Mabua which will give evidence on an assault which Dr Russel Alley will lead, then Piet Meiring will lead the evidence of Ntoampe Steven Moganedi.
Molopo Johannes Mathebela will come to the stand and Dr Russel Ally will lead the witness.
Sorry, I was told that I did not introduce myself, my name is Wynand Malan and I'm also a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee.
DR ALLY: Good morning to you Mr Mathibela, you're the first witness today, so I just want you to relax, there's no need to be nervous, are you picking up the translation okay on the headphone.
MR MATHIBELA: Yes I can hear.
DR ALLY: Before we begin I want to just stand and raise your right hand and take the oath.
MATHIBELA MOLOPO JOHANNES: (sworn states)
DR ALLY: Johannes you're coming to speak to us about an incident that happened in May 1990 when you were shot, I would ask you now to relate your story to us, thank you.
MR MATHIBELA: My name is Molopo Johannes Mathibela Chiba. On the 5th of May I was on my way together with my friends from my aunt's place, he name is Maggie Magaschula. When we were on our way we saw a car. We were on the east of that place and the car on the west. When we met the car it came to our side which was on the left side of the road. The car turned around and came to us. The lights of the car were dim and it stood there for five minutes and we thought that the occupants knew us, but they did not.
The car turned around and we now realised that it was a police car and we went to them to ask why they were not talking to us. We were at a shop called Thabisa Cross Roads. Zacharia Machi Fani and I went to the police guys and we found that the other police guys were at the shop, and we asked them why they were following us. We got no answer. I was wearing an ANC and SACP T-shirt but at that time the police did not want us to wear those T-shirts. The guy came out of the police van and started shooting at us. As you know, a bullet is very fast, it went straight into my right eye I fell unconscious.
My friends took me to my sister and brother, his name was Skalima Mathibela, they took me from that place and they looked for a car, Mr Lucas Magolia's car to take me to the hospital. They took me to Mathlalesent ...(indistinct) Hospital where Dr Joe Pashla who is now the MSC for Health in the Northern Province legislature was a doctor at that time. Because I understand a little English I heard him saying that I was totally destroyed. I was confused at the time and I wanted to be released immediately because I realised that I wasn't going to be cured at the hospital at the time. They begged me to stay and I spent a day there when I was transferred to Garankuwa Hospital. I spent weeks, maybe a month at the hospital and they took my eye out.
After they released me I went back home and after spending some time there they called me back to Garangkuwa to have an artificial eye fitted. I went there for treatment until they could do this, which they did.
I took my case to the Human Rights lawyer, a Mr Serfontein who is now an MSC in this province, in 1990. During the elections in 1994, Mr Serfontein was busy with the elections and he asked me to come to the office and he asked me if he could transfer the case to Mr Shenk. He did that and I thought Mr Shenk would write to me or call me to the office but he never did. Serfontein continued to write to me and he informed me that the case was with the other lawyer. I waited until I went to the office and the last time I went there was in May this year.
In June this year they wrote a letter to me in which they told me that they wrote a letter to one Indian guy in Pretoria and that my case would be with the advocate in Pretoria. I asked how far my case was and they told me that they wrote a letter to Mr Petrie about a settlement of money for my compensation. They said it was written during May 1996. From that time I left them and thought of coming to the Commission because these people were wasting my time, because this has dragged on since it happened in 1990 and I didn't understand the reason for the delay. Nothing has happened up to now on coming to the Commission, I still haven't received anything from them.
The registration number for the car is LP810, cream white in colour and it's a Toyota van. The policemen who shot me were Lesiva Jonas Mahowa and Jali. I don't know his other name, only his surname. I knew them because the station commander heard them saying that they shot a man in Sepaku at the station. I saw the station commander when I came back from Garankuwa Hospital. He came to me to ask me what happened. I didn't know those guys at the time but the station commander told me their names. I know Jali, I can recognise him but Lesiva, I saw him the last time, he day he shot me. I can recognise him by his height and his face, that's how I knew this guy.
The doctor who fitted the artificial eye was Dr Lewis and his colleagues. This is all, I'll wait for your questions.
DR ALLY: Thank you very much Mr Mathibela for that very clear account. Just a few questions please, if you don't mind?
The policemen in the van who you say shot at you, you say you knew the one policeman, Lesebe but the other policeman you did not know?
MR MATHIBELA: Actually this Lesiva Johannes Mahowa and Jali, I did not know them at the time. I'm only saying that I only know their faces. Now I know Jali but I didn't know them at the time because it was the first time that I saw them that day.
DR ALLY: The first time that you saw them that day but you found out their names after the event, from the station commander?
MR MATHIBELA: Yes, that night it was the very first time I saw those police guys, I never met them after that. I saw Jali when I went to the police station for questioning and I saw him and I realised that this was the guy who was there on that day and the station commander confirmed that he was Jali.
DR ALLY: Before this incident on the 5th of May, did you have any other contact with the South African Police or the South African Defence Force, were you ever involved in any harassment?
MR MATHIBELA: The way it is, I was the leader of the AN Youth League. At the time when we held meetings the police and their soldiers used to chase us and we sometimes had meetings in halls and sometimes we couldn't sleep, and they told us that we must ask for permission from our chiefs who have to give us a letter to go to the police station and from there were supposed to go to the magistrate so that we can get permission. They would take the letter to Security who was in Marble Hall. They way it was, the police and the chiefs started knowing us at the time because we used to have meetings and we were following the rules so that they shouldn't chase us. Many police knew us because they heard our names at the ...(indistinct) and even at the chief's place. As we had many meetings they knew who the comrades were at the time.
DR ALLY: Were you ever detained before this incident?
MR MATHIBELA: Never.
DR ALLY: Now this night, this 5th of May, it was a Saturday night was it not, were you just out on a social meeting or were you coming from a meeting or going to a meeting?
MR MATHIBELA: On that day, I was from my aunt. The way things were, it was on a Saturday night on the 5th of May. coming from my aunt Maggie Magashula's place, with my friends and on the way we just met the police and I think this happened because I was wearing an ANC T-shirt and on the right hand side was written SACP. I don't know, maybe they knew me but I didn't know them at the time.
DR ALLY: There was nothing happening in the township that day, there were no public meetings or anything like that, or no incidents that day?
MR MATHIBELA: That day, during the day, we has a meeting and I think maybe other people went to call the police we had a Saturday Youth League meeting.
DR ALLY: Now when you say this car was following you and then the lights were first dim but then they put bright lights on and shone them in your face and you went up to the car, now when you went up to it, was there any confrontation, did you say anything to them, did you threaten them in any way? What happened when you actually approached the car, before they got out and shot?
MR MATHIBELA: We were on the eastern side Sepaku and the car was on the west side, we were on the left hand side of the road and we met each other. The car turned around and we were walking on the pedestrian walk and they stood there for five minutes. We were just confused and we thought the people knew us, only realising that this was a police van when they started following us and we could see that it was a police van in the moonlight. They went to Thabiso Crossroads shop and we followed them because we thought maybe they were looking for something. My friends went into the shop and Zacharia and I went to the car and the other police guy went into the shop and his colleague was sitting in the car. When we arrived there I asked why they were following us without asking us anything, and when I was talking to them, he just got out and started shooting.
He first struck the windscreen, that's all that I can say.
DR ALLY: Mr Mathibela, I'm going to ask the other Commissioners if they want to ask you anything.
PROF MEIRING: Mr Mathibela, I see in your written statement that you say you are not employed at the moment, that you do not work, is it because you cannot find work or because you are unable to work because of what has happened to you?
MR MATHIBELA: I'm not working at the moment because I always get headaches when I try to work, I cannot work. I can only do simple labour but I sometimes get severe headaches and the other eye is also not very well. I can work but I cannot do difficult work, I cannot drive because of my eyesight. I cannot find work.
MEMBER OF PANEL: (not interpreted)
MR MATHIBELA: Yes it's like that.
MEMBER OF PANEL: Were they maintaining that your wife is a member of the Youth League, or was she an active supporter?
MR MATHIBELA: The way things are, we used to have meetings and other people didn't like that and they used to tell the police and SADF, other people used to report whenever we had meetings, so on that day when we had a meeting during the day we saw the police coming to us and they dispersed us. We ran away and they thought I ran to my home but I didn't go there, so a policeman called Ledwaba went to my home and found my wife taking a bath. They went into the bathroom and they took her out of the bath. She covered herself with a towel and they took the towel away and started laughing at her. That's what I reported to the Commission, that they were humiliating my wife, this Ledwaba.
MEMBER OF PANEL: That is through the lawyers and so on that you got the power, or they had the, the police, you were to be....? (side A of tape ends here)
MR MATHIBELA: Yes I went to the lawyers to Mr Sad Kachalia, I claimed and I wanted to be compensated because I had an operation, and he told me I was going to be compensated. Actually I wanted to sue those people, so later on I told them I want to be compensated, that's what I told the lawyers at the time.
MEMBER OF PANEL: There was never a letter agreeing to a settlement?
MR MATHIBELA: No I didn't receive any letter.
PROF MEIRING: Mr Mathibela, if I may just ask you a question or two, we also got a statement as you know from your friend that accompanied you at the time, Zacharia Mashifane, we have been informed that unfortunately he cannot be here today to give his testimony but in his written statement he says, and this is in paragraph seven if you want to check with them later, that he believes that the policeman shot you because of your activity as youth organiser at Sepaku but he also says that the policeman knew you very well and that the two of you at the time knew him very well, because he says, you were arrested several times for your activities in the ANC Youth League. What was your perception really, why did he shoot you? You said in your testimony that you think it's because of the T-shirt that you wore. Is there perhaps something more to it?
MR MATHIBELA: These police, I cannot say I knew them at the time. Zacharia and others were arrested later, after I was shot, Zacharia and Simon Mathibela and his little brother. They came to my house looking for me and they asked for Chipa Mathibela, my nick name, and they came asking for Chipa, they asked my mother and they woke up everyone. They came with three cars at the time but I was not there. They knocked on the windows and some of them went into the house. They took Simon Mathibela and they went to Zacharia's place. We stay close to each other, they went to his place and they took him and his little brother who they didn't actually want, they wanted Zacharia and me.
Zacharia was the publicity secretary and the police knew him, we didn't know them because they work with chiefs, but they knew Zacharia because, as I told you we were supposed to write lists and letters before we had meetings. That's why I think they knew us at the time, they knew active people at the time. They fetched Zacharia, Simon and Lassie but that day they wanted me and I don't know why they were looking for me.
This person who directed them to my place, I think didn't know where I was at the time so they only found Lassie and Simon. They took them to Buffelkop in a police van and assaulted them for the whole day. When they arrived at the police station, my other comrades and I had a mass meeting. It was not for the Youth League, it was just a mass meeting and I realised that I was soon going to be arrested, and we realised that they were not actually looking for those people, they were looking for me and they missed me because I was not home that day. I started looking for comrades in my village and we all went out. We wanted to go to the police station, we wanted to be arrested, all of us because we realised that they actually didn't want those people.
On our way to the police station, the soldiers came and
and they started beating us. I ran away to the field and I think the police heard about that incident, because we had a meeting that day. My brother Dali and my mother who's now dead as well as Zacharia and my father came to the police station asking the reason why they arrested them, and they told him that they're actually looking for Chipa and Zacharia. They said they wanted to arrest us because we were comrades. When they heard that we were marching to the police station, they released those guys and they came back home.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much, just one last question. If I read the statements correctly, then the policeman shot you without talking to you and they got in the car and they drove off, they didn't arrest anyone at the time? Is that correct?
MR MATHIBELA: Yes it's true. After I asked the police who Lesiba is, because his colleague was still in the shop, after shooting me, all the people in the shop came out of it and I fell about 20m from the van and they all looked at me. They never arrested us and they didn't talk to me and they didn't open a case, they just drove off and my friends took me to my younger brother's place. Even at the hospital the police came, but they never said anything to me. Up to now the police never opened a case. I was never arrested.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much Mr Mathebela for your evidence, we will further look into it and we will process it. We may, at a future occasion also perhaps listen to the evidence of Zacharia if he's around when we're in town again. We would hope that your case in Pretoria against the police will soon be finalised an that you will get well compensated then. Thank you very much for coming to us, we wish you well.
MR MATHIBELA: I have one question. When you say you want Zacharia to come and give evidence, I want to know if you will call him to Pretoria or here, so that I can go and tell him?
MR MALAN: We will liaise with him or you if we would be hearing him, we don't know, we have his full statement, it may not be necessary to hear him again orally, but if we are around and if we deem it necessary, you will know and he will know. Thank you very much again for coming to us.
MR MATHIBELA: Thank you very much. Actually Zacharia is supposed to be here with me today but I think he was not able because of transport problems, but he was prepared to come, thank you.
MR MALAN: Again, go well!
