Human Rights Violation Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: ...Deputy-Chairperson of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and a member of the Human Right Committee. Dumisa Ntsebeza next to him, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee. He is a Commissioner and Head of our investigative unit. Next to him is Pumla Gobodo a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee from the Western Cape. Next to her is Ntsiki Sandi, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee from the Eastern Cape region. Next to Ntsiki is Yasmin Sooka, a Commissioner, she is Deputy-Chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee and comes from Gauteng. Also not sitting at the table with us is Doctor Smangele Magwaza, a member of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee from KwaZulu-Natal and Free State region. Next to me here is Reverend Bongani Finca, a Commissioner and convener of our regional office in this region of the Eastern Cape based in East London. Tiny Maya, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee from this region and Mcebisi Xundu, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee from this region. We warmly welcome you in this second meeting of the Human Rights Violations Committee in this region of the Eastern Cape. We welcome you all to these hearings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

This is now the second in the series of hearings planned by the Commission. ...to this the second in the second series of Human Rights Violations hearings. We want to particularly welcome the witnesses and their families. I want to express on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission our appreciation to the Mayor, Mr and Mrs Faku and the people of this city for your welcome and hospitality. Thank you for the reception that you held for the Commission last night, Mr Mayor. We are grateful too for the use of facilities that you have placed at our disposal, of your office and those of the office of your Town Clerk, the traffic police and most of all we thank you that we will not have to pay for this hall. Port Elizabeth, out of their enormous generosity and their huge budget, they are ready to pay for this.

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We also want to say thank you to the police for providing the security. We know it is all going to go very well and we are thanking you in anticipation. Thank you very much Commissioner and your staff.

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Thank you too to the translators who will be helping us during this session and the people responsible for the transcriptions. I want, as the Chairperson, to express my appreciation to Reverend Bongani Finca and all of his colleagues, the Committee members in this region, the Regional Co-ordinator, Reverend Vido, the staff, all the briefers and statement takers, you are doing a splendid job of work. We also want to say thank you to those whom we do not see, who are the backroom boys and girls in the office, the administrative staff. We are enormously grateful to them for the very hard work that they do.

I do want to say that we have a slight distress. One of our Committee members, June Creichton, had to resign because of ill health. We want to place on record our deep appreciation and esteem of her for all the work that she has done even before she was appointed to the Commission. We want to assure her of our love and our prayers. I do ask us to give a warm hand to June in her absence.

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CHAIRPERSON: I express too my appreciation and that of the Commission to the media who have been doing a splendid job in publishing the Commission and especially these hearings and the different kinds of hearings that are taking place in Phokeng in Rustenburg of the Amnesty Committee. We do want to let them know that we appreciate the role that they are playing.

It is a role that is contributing to the process of healing in our land as they tell the incredible story of the quite remarkable generosity of spirit, the nobility of spirit of those who defied the remarkable suffering that they have experienced are ready to forgive as long as they can know the truth, as long as they can know who were the perpetrators.

We give thanks too for the SABC for its radio coverage which is happening all the time and the SABC TV for having been, up to this point, so wonderfully sensitive in the way that they have reported what has been taking place on television. I do want to underline that the Commission, through these hearings, must by now have demonstrated its evenhandedness in the representativeness of the witness who come to testify. Those who have decided ahead of any evidence whatsoever that the Commission was going to be biased in favour of one or other political party must admit that this has not been the case. You will see even here the witnesses that are coming to testify will be coming from a broad range of political groupings.

We believe too, from the testimony of various people through letters, etcetera, that indeed a healing is beginning to take place in our country. To that extent the Commission is beginning to fulfill the mandate it is given by the Act to promote national unity and reconciliation.

These hearings are, as it were a victim driven, we seek to give a forum to people who in the past have not been able to tell their story. That is the main purpose of these hearings, that the stories must be told, that we must be able to uncover the truth about our dark past.

We will not make a finding at the end of this hearing. This is something that is going to happen a great deal later when the Commission will decide whether those who have testified qualify to be declared victims in the understanding of the Act. People will be speaking under oath. We therefore believe that they will be telling us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If someone should be proved to have misled the Commission deliberately then they must know that they will be guilty of the same offence as would have been the case if they had done that in a court of law. This is not a court of law, but we expect all of you to conduct yourselves with dignity. The dignity that is appropriate for listening to some of the harrowing, the sad, the painful stories that we will be hearing. I do not want to be able to invoke the powers that are vested in the Chairperson or the Presiding Commissioner in terms of the Act. If it were to become necessary to do so in order to maintain the dignity and decorum of the proceedings then we will want to do so. I now call on the deputy..., to Reverend Finca, oh no, you wanted to do something else.

Rev B FINCA: Chairperson, thank you very much. I do wish to say a short word of welcome to yourself, the Deputy-Chairperson, Dumisa, Pumla, Smangele and Yasmine, who are visiting Commissioners and Committee members on our hearings. Although we are indeed very adequate we can sit on a hearing on our own. There is no doubt about that. We are indeed thrilled that you have joined us and there is a sense in which you bring a special dimension of dignity and grace to our hearings. On behalf of the region we would like to say thank you that you have come and you are participating with us.

Chairperson, I report that the Eastern Cape region have received applications from the following persons who wish to present their statements before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC. The applications as you can see come from the Port Elizabeth area, Uitenhage and Addo. I report, Chairperson, that some applications made written statements which were presented to us before the hearing and where they implicate persons. In their written statements we have taken action as much as it is possible to us to inform the alleged perpetrators. Others, Chairperson, have decided not to give us written statements as you will see from the documentation that is before you. They have decided that they will make their statements when they appear before the Committee.

I read the witnesses who are going to come before the Commission today in the order in which they appear:

1. Mr Mono Badela - The nature of violation is abduction, attempted murder, severe ill-treatment. The person affected is himself. The person who will be leading questions from the Commission is Mr Sandi.

2. Mr Sizani Madlavu - The nature of violation is murder. Person affected is Ngangelizwe Madlavu, the son of the witness. The person who will be leading questions from the side of the Commission is Tiny Maya.

3. Mr Mlandeli Notho Guntu - The nature of violation is attempted murder. The person affected is Mr Guntu himself. The person leading the witness is Reverend Mcebisi Xundu.

4. Mrs Nombuzo Kinikini - The nature of violation is murder of her husband and four sons. Persons affected is her husband, Tamsanqa, and her four sons, Silumko, Luvuyo, Qondile, Jelimesi Kinikini. We have requested Ms Gobodo to lead the witness.

5. Mr Dennis Neer - The nature of violation is torture in detention. The person affected is himself. Tiny Maya will lead questions of behalf of the Commission.

6. Mrs Bekaphi Gladys Maqolo - The nature of violation is severe ill-treatment. The person affected is Mbuyiselo Nomarashia Maqholo. The person who will lead the witness is Mr Ntsiki Sandi.

7. Mrs Nokuzola Carol-Anne Fulani - The nature of violation is the murder of her husband. The person affected is Aubrey Jacob Fulani. I will be leading the witness.

8. Mrs Nohle Anna Nika Jonas - The nature of violation is the disappearance of her three sons. The persons affected is Thembinkosi, Vusumzi and Sabelo, her three sons. Mcebisi is leading that witness.

9. Mr Wandile Appolis - The nature of violation is attempted murder. The person affected is Wandile himself. The person leading the witness is Tiny Maya.

10. Mr Gungqile Epson Banda - The nature of violation is torture in detention and attempted murder. The person affected is Mr Banda himself. Dumisa Ntsebeza will be leading the witness.

That is the order for today, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Rev B FINCA: Chairperson, before I call the first witness I would like to say that the headphones that some of you are using must please not be removed from the hall. They need to be charged so that they will be of no use to anyone if they are taken away. They do cost a lot of money. We would be very gratetful if they are left in the seats.

The second announcement is that if you are in possession of a cellphone, please switch that phone off now as it can be very disturbing particularly for the witnesses. Thank you very much for your co-operation.

Chairperson, I call, as the first witness, Mr Mono Badela and ask him to please come forward. Most of the evidence is going to be led in Xhosa. So those of you who are Xhosa speaking will not require the headphones. I will be greatful if you would be generous towards those who do not understand or cannot follow Xhosa. Obviously the language that the witness uses is the language of his or her choice.

Mr Badela, my first word to you must be one of very warm welcome. We are very glad that you have agreed to come and testify before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

 

Mr MONO BADELA D.S.S.

(?): Mr Badela, you are an experienced journalist so you perhaps do not feel too nervous. This is the first witness of the opening day and it can be a little worrying sometimes. I hope you will feel very relaxed and know that you are amongst friends. The story that you have to tell goes back a very long way. You have been very highly involved in the shift from repression to democracy during which time you have known harassment, abduction, attempted murder and severe ill-treatment. That is the story that you have come to tell the Commission. In order to assist you in the telling of that story, as we do for all witnesses, we are going to ask Mr Sandi to lead you on this case. I hand over to him now. Thank you.

Mr N SANDI: Let me first greet Mr Badela.

WITNESS: I greet you too, sir.

Mr N SANDI: The woman sitting next to you, is she your wife?

WITNESS: The woman next to me is Cikizwa. She is the only sister that I have. She is here in the place of my wife, NomaIndia Badela, who is not here who felt that she cannot come here and see the re-living of the pathetic stories. So I asked my sister yesterday to come and sit here next to me so that we can be able to go through all the things I had to go through because she was also the witness.

Mr N SANDI: You have made a request here to the Commission to be here to give your statement for your abduction and attempted murder and other tortures that you have gone through. Is that so, Mr Badela?

WITNESS: Yes, that is so. I am going to express everything that happened since 1963 up to now.

Mr N SANDI: Mr Badela, you did not give a written statement to us. Is it not?

WITNESS: Yes, it is true. I did not make an application to come here, but I do accept the existence of this Commission. I welcome it wholeheartedly. It is very good for us especially the ones who were in the struggle.

Mr N SANDI: When I look at the documents in front of us, the documents that you gave us, as the Commission, there is what is called "biography". Is that what you gave us? Anything else other than this biography?

WITNESS: I only gave you my biography. It was in the book that was published in America, in a book by Tim Lodge. I can show you the book. Here is the book. The title is "Update South African Time Running Out". This book was written before 1990.

Before we go into the details of the way you grew up where you were born and where you got your education I would like you to give us a short picture, so when we talk about Mono Badela we must know whom we are talking about. When I look at this biography you said there is only one Mono, everybody knows Mono. Even now I am still asking, is there any other Mono in South Africa?

WITNESS: There is no one else who can call himself Mono in South Africa. That person has been named after me.

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Mr N SANDI: I did not allow you to applaud. They like you. But then let us please note that we want this to be as dignified as possible.

WITNESS: I will try and do so, Honourable priest.

Mr N SANDI: When you go ahead, Mr Badela, we are going to start this vehicle moving now. Just speak spontaneously. Just go on and tell us where you were born. Who were your parents. Where you got your education.

WITNESS: I was born here in Port Elizabeth. I grew up here. I got my education here. My mother is well known. Most people know her. She was working at Denfers. She was also working at Gen Ken's Union. I got this talent and the ability to go through the struggle, I sucked it from her. This originates in 1967. I grew up here. I went to school at Newell High School under Mr Moliswe.

That is how I started to get to know about politics. I was also part of the union. Then I went to Fort Hare.

While I was here in Port Elizabeth I saw political movements. I watched everything during the bus boycotts. I was new in this political struggles. I started these right from the beginning. It originated in 1957. I was part of the delegation that went to Cape Town. That time I was still wearing short pants. That was the first time I had a clash with the police. We were arrested by the police. We were trying to hide from the police but we were arrested. We were delegates from Fort Hare when we got arrested.

...Extension of Bantu Education to Fort Hare 1955. The result was I was not allowed to continue the following year to do my UED, I wanted to be a lawyer, because I could not go back to Fort Hare. I accepted all that because it was not me who wanted this. It was God who wanted all this to happen. We did not have money at home. ... this scholarship. So I worked for them as a recreation officer though I wanted to do law. I was compelled. I opened a club called "Patapata" for the youth. This club was at Hoza. From Hoza I came here to Centenary. This was all for the youth which I was part of.

Mr N SANDI: I would like to interrupt you there, Mr Badela. Can you please keep it in Xhosa. Could you please speak Xhosa only.

WITNESS: Thank you, Chairperson, I am going to try and speak Xhosa only. It is difficult because sometimes you just put in an English adjective here and there. You will please forgive me. I worked at the Council. I was still here. I opened this particular hall. I was woken up on the 6 April in the morning by a prosecutor, a very tough gentleman. He said "Kiss your wife, kiss your child". Brenda was still very small then. They said to me: "You are going to see them now after a long time. You are going away". That is how I got arrested. Only to find that I was arrested for Poqo, something which is very funny to me because I once attended a meeting of the PAC, chaired by Reverend Matthews. It was just here. I was arrested for Poqo, together with my friend, Dwesi, who was with me in the Council, also Mr Ngesi. We were three in that cell. We were in this smelly cell, but I accepted that because wherever I go I know that whatever I do, wherever I am, it is God who put me there. I told myself to stay here even if I know that I am not Poqo I must just stay here and accept the situation.

From Walmer where we were kept we went to Royo. That is where we stayed for a very long time. We were arrested under the 90 days detention. Now we had our own cells. Each in his own cell. From Royo we went to Graaff-Reinet. I was told that I belong to an organisation called "Pan African Congress". I knew that was not so. I was angry because I knew my own organisation and I am sure even the other people outside knew that this is not so. They knew that I was going to get out because I am not a Pan Africanist. We stayed there for a long time until I was called to testify. There were a lot of people from Port Elizabeth there, people whom we were arrested with, people from the PAC. They did not say to these people that: "No, this one does not belong to us. Let him free". I was let free only on the last day. Mr Tsotsobe said: "No, this one is not from the PAC. He can be released". That happened after I stayed for four months, which was in July. It means I stayed there from April to July. I was told that I was in a meeting with other kids who were doing Std 4. I am sure you know Mr Jungle Lubisi who was there.

Mr N SANDI: I am sure, Mr Badela, your history is quite long. If one asks for all of it, the sun will set. Even tomorrow the sun will set, trying to listen to your history. If somebody wants to know your history I think they should get your book. Mr Badela, let me ask you. What are you doing right now?

WITNESS: I am a journalist. I am based at Bisho as a director of Communication, but I still take myself as a journalist. I am a journalist. Mr N SANDI: Where do you work right now?

WITNESS: I am working at Bisho. Just to give you a short story of that. I went back again during 1982 to the prison. Myself and Thozamile Botha, we opened PEPCO. Again I was regarded as a bad person to these men who are now dead. I do not know if they are still alive. I was detained in 1980 because I used to write quite a lot about the people, especially the Port Elizabeth people. That was not liked by the security branch. I used to write about lost people, people who just disappeared. I used to talk about everything.

When I was a journalist at Walmer we had a meeting in one of the halls in Walmer. I still called the Sunday Post, telling them about the story, then somebody pat on my shoulder saying, when I said the white men, I saw that it was a security man. He said: "We have been looking for you for a long time". That is how I was arrested. Only to find out that Thozamile Botha was also arrested and Tshume was also arrested. We were five. I was kept in Kirkwood. Nobody knew where I was until February 1980. I was arrested under Section 6 which was the Terrorism Act.

We were released after two months. Then we were given a banning order of house arrest. I had to stay at home between 06h00 and 18h00. After 18h00 on a Friday I had to remain indoors until 06h00 on Monday, especially when there were meeting of PEPCO. Here in the Centenary I was also watched just to see if I am not out yet. I tried to endure that situation. Even if I was going to the shop I was watched. If you buy something over the counter you would find that there is a policeman next to you. I can give you the names of these people. If the house wants the names I will give the names.

Thozamile Botha left after two months, but I remained. I told myself that this is my home. I was busy with a quarry at that time. I would meet people, one or two. We were not allowed to have a meeting of three because that will be a crime. I remember when Monde Mdishu was found in the house I was sentenced to two months, but I won on appeal when the Banning Order ended 1983. Peter Qobose said to me I must go to Johannesburg.

Mr N SANDI: Mr Badela, let us come closer now to today. Could you please tell the Commission. What was the reason for you to leave Port Elizabeth to go to Johannesburg?

WITNESS: During 1984 I discovered that I am a very big enemy of the security police. I was hand-cuffed. I was put in a cell in the Sanlam Building with my daughter. My little daughter and I were kept in a cell at Jeffrey's Bay under the Internal Security Act. I am now drinking Madiba's water.

During December 1984 when I was released I could see that there was unrest in Port Elizabeth, but I did not understand what was going on at that time. It was really bad. People were hunted like rabbits. People were shot at. Especially at night you would find that there was a bus full of police just shooting at people at random.

I was called by Mr Kobese only to find that his brother has been burnt in his house. Seeing him burnt like that was quite a terrible experience for me. It was very difficult even to bury him. The whole Kobese family was arrested. We had to stop the funeral because the whole family was detained.

Mr N SANDI: Mr Badela, it looks like you were abducted as well. Could you please tell us what happened?

WITNESS: ...at midnight at home by members of the Azanian Peoples Congress who apparently, as at the time when there was conflict with the members of the UDF, those men said they were sent by Maqhina. Maqhina said I was wanted in the court. They left my windows shut. Everybody got out their houses. They thought I was going to be slaughtered now. I left with them. I just followed them like a sheep.

When I got to Maqhina's place it was full of people. I simply thought that they were from AZAPO. They were stabbing me on my head. It was swollen at that time. They told each other that they have arrested the big dog. There were four other young men who were covered with shirts. Maqhina said: "Yes...

PART OF EVIDENCE NOT RECORDED DUE TO CHANGING ON TAPE.

WITNESS: I was interrogated by these members of AZAPO. There was a certain Mr Ngcobo Nguna who was a big official of Maqhina. He said to me... At that time I was bleeding when they said I must demonstrate what toyi-toyi is. I had to demonstrate just like this.

Mr N SANDI: Mr Badela, if I hear you correctly, when you say there is also an attempted murder case.

WITNESS: Yes, it was attempted murder because even at the time they were poking me with knives. Maqhina even said: "Take him, put him in the van. Let us take him to Kleinskool and necklace him."

They put me in the same van when they took me from my home. There was a big tyre in this van. I made the big tyre my pillow. At that time I knew that this was my necklace. Maqhina's people were divided into two. Some of the members of AZAPO said: "No, we did not bring this person here to kill him. We called him as a UDF person to come and tell the UDF not to disrupt our platform and our meetings". At that time there was a meeting at Dan Qeqe on a Saturday where a certain Mr Leon, that man over there, he said: "Go and tell them. This is why we brought him here. Not to kill him". I had already given up by that time because with me on my the left hand right there were these two AZAPO men poking me with knives, calling me "you dog, we have you today". I stayed there up to 18h00 and when I arrived there it was 14h00. They went to work in the morning. At home my family had already called other people and then the UDF made a rally.

Mr N SANDI: To conclude, Mr Badela, what you are telling the Commission now is, are you making a certain request by all this report?

WITNESS: My request is that I was only given one notice. They said: "If you are not doing this you are coming back". Then I was thrown in at Kei Dol. From there I had to walk home to Limba. I am trying to show you that when this happened it was not just Maqhina who did this. He was being used. I can prove this to you that Maqhina was under certain instructions. It was not AZAPO who did this.

It was only AZAPO that was abused. He was a PAC at Walmer and some Africans from Uitenhage.

When my house was burnt down it dawned to me that Maqhina was not alone in this. He was being used by certain organisations, from the security, SADF, police. I am trying to prove to you now that there are documents that I can give to you.

When the second inquest of Goniwe was made I was called to the Legal Resources Centre. He said to me: "Read these documents". ... entire establishment that wanted to do away with you.

Mr N SANDI: Mr Badela, could you please take out all those documents that you are talking about?

WITNESS: Here are the documents that Mr Vogels gave me in 1994. They are in Afrikaans. If you can read these documents, Chairperson, they tell you explicitly how Maqhina explained to a committee on these army generals including Joseph van der Westhuizen who gave the order that Mr Goniwe must be removed from the S for good. That document will show you that. I have more documents here with me for the Commissioners to read.

Mr N SANDI: Mr Mono Badela, you gave yourself a chance to read all these documents, but we as the panel did not get a chance to read these documents.

WITNESS: This is the first time I am bringing these to you. I cannot read Afrikaans, but Mr Viegels took time to explain to me in each paragraph. He explained to me: "Here are the names of the security, Brigadier Hale Swartz, Brigadier A van der Merwe...

Mr N SANDI: Mr Badela, the Commission is going to take a look at these documents that you have given us. Like I said, we did not have a chance to read to these documents, but now we are going to go through them just to see what is in them.

WITNESS: Sir, I want the people from Port Elizabeth to know the names in these documents. Du Plessis, Snyman, those are the people who were torturing me in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: When the Commission gives a report again that report will be handed to the President who will then be tabling it in Parliament, make it available to the people of South Africa. The things written in these documents will be known by everybody, the people of the whole of the Republic of South Africa.

WITNESS: I thank you very much. Thank you very much, sir. These documents, I saw an article from the Daily Dispatch which collaborates with what is here, written by Ms Flanagan.

I know her very well. She is a very good reporter.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, in order for us to be able to deal with everything that you are giving us now, it will form part of our record. We did not get a chance to these records. Give us a chance to go through these records. Just hand in all those documents that you have so that we can go through them.

Mr N SANDI: ... Mr Badela, so that if they have any questions they can ask you. Before I do that I will hand over to the Chairperson. Thank you very much for your report.

WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions that you want to ask? Yasmine Sooka?

Ms J SUKA: Mr Badela, you talk about the fact that the State was involved in the UDF/AZAPO conflict. Could you tell us a little bit more about why you are actually making that allegation?

WITNESS: I am going to explain it briefly. Since the violence in Uitenhage when somebody was shot on the 25 March 1985, when those people were buried it looks as far as I know as a journalist, those deaths were not accidents. Some people were not allowed to participate in this funeral. Young members of the UDF, especially Xhosa people, were not given a chance to participate in these.

That is where the conflict started. According to my view this conflict was started by a certain force, just like these documents that I have supplied to you now, were proof. It was not just AZAPO who was doing this. AZAPO was just an instrument of the State. It was the State that was behind all this conflict, between AZAPO and the UDF.

Now this conflict spread out and many people were involved. People like Hashe, Godolozi, disappeared on the 8 May and I was abducted on the 5 May. In other words, when I was in this police van, when, just before I was almost necklaced, I was going to be one of the first ones to be killed. These people disappeared three days after I was abducted. Even now nobody knows where they are. I published the disappearance of Godolozi. That was my job.

Ms J SUKA: Also tell me, I noticed from the article that appeared on you that you say you witnessed the necklacing of Mr Kinikini.

WITNESS: Like I said to you, when I got out of jail in 1984 I went to Uitenhage. I saw the death of Kobese, the junior, he was burnt. People were blaming Kinikini saying he was behind all these. I was to attend a certain funeral in Uitenhage. It was really terrible at that time at Uitenhage. I remember there was a journalist from great Britain. I put him in the boot then I went through the roadblock together with that man from Uitenhage. They took this man and put him in the police van.

He was a member of the Queens Park. He used to wear one of those hats from the Queen and that is how we got in.

Before I went to this funeral I went to Mrs Kinikini's house. She said: "Here is Mono Badela. We know he is a journalist". She called me into his house and said: "Do you remember mama"? She said: "My son, come in. It has been a long time we have been talking to this man telling him to stop the Community Council". We asked them to resign. They pleaded with me saying: "Please, go to this funeral, tell Kobese that this man next to me wants to resign". He said that there were financial affairs that he still had to fix. She said: "Go to Kobese and tell them". I want to tell everybody about what happened, but he dodged me. I could not find him at the funeral. They said: "Give me a chance to tie down my financial affairs". I simply thought that he was intending to leave Uitenhage. Kobese told him to resign now. People were disappearing, people were dying in Uitenhage. People did not know what happened to their families. I remember I went to hide in a church because of the shootings.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, it looks like you have many details. Could you please just give us brief answers that you were asked just now? What happened?

WITNESS: There was a funeral in Uitenhage. It was a real bad day in Uitenhage. When you come from Port Elizabeth you could see how bad it was. It was that Kinikini who was surrounded. I never saw anyone so sad like I saw somebody in Uitenhage. They took Kinikini, they were stabbing him and after that he was necklaced. I watched that. I even took photos. Those photos appeared in the City Press. There was little pieces of Kinikini. He was in four pieces, the chest and other parts of his body and his sons as well. It was really bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Rev B FINCA: Chairperson, I would like to pose a question to Mr Badela. I know that he is satisfying as a victim in his own right, but I would like to raise a question to you as a journalist. There was a perception, and I think it was a general perception at the time, that the human rights violations in the Port Elizabeth/Uitenhage area was as a result of black on black violence and conflict. You have just said to us that there is a dimension which was not being reflected. What role did the press in general play in exposing or suppressing the truth of what was happening at the time? Our task as the Commission is to find out the truth. I would like you to give us your perception on that particular issue.

WITNESS: Reverend, ... exactly what was taking place in the Eastern Cape. How the police were terrorising communities, especially the youth, how the police were disrupting funerals. At one stage we found at Veeplaas soldiers lying on their stomachs. I portrayed all that. I covered the disappearance of Goniwe, when I was in Johannesburg. I portrayed these things. That is why it was decided I must be done away with. I think, (XHOSA) the real issues in the Eastern Cape.

At one stage I was in Cradock. People in Cradock will tell you this. At the ring of a telephone we would be there as reporters to report whatever was going on. I was their pillar as a reporter. I would report everything. I hope I have answered your question.

Rev B FINCA: I was not asking you personally. I think your record of reporting on those issues are well known in Port Elizabeth. I was asking about the press in general. Do you feel that the press played its role in reporting fairly and adequately of what was happening at the time?

WITNESS: It depends what kind of press it is. The approach may not be the same story. I may not write the same story as my sister next to me here. The reason why I joined City Press is because it was led by Percy Qoboza. Even today you can buy a newspaper and stories will be written in various ways. Thank you.

Ms P Gobodo: Thank you, Chairperson. Could you please, sir, just try. There is something which I would like you to explain to me specifically. Could you please emphasise on it. You have already told us a lot of things about you, but just please explain to us about something you have told us. You said to us that Maqhina was doing this on his own. He was doing it under the influence of the State police. I do not want us to leave it there hanging like that. Could you please tell us why do you think that Maqhina was not working alone? Why do you think he was working under the State police? On which evidence do you tell us this?

WITNESS: Lady, let me tell you this. At that time people were disappearing. People were furious. I am telling you this, you are going to understand now. People were telling me that they were going to Maqhina's place and all the way to Maqhina you will find that here at Stanton Road there are Kaffers and you will find "buffels" on the sides of the road. They were protecting Maqhina. Even the little path that goes to Maqhina's place, you would find two "buffels" of soldiers guarding Maqhina's place. That is why I am giving you all these documentation that Maqhina was part of a military conspiracy. ... as high up in the resistance against apartheid.

If you can read through those documents you will get all the answers. It tells you the plans, even how he destroyed my house. How Maqhina said there are only five people who had to be eliminated. He said: "I want their heads to roll. If they do not roll there will always be violence in Port Elizabeth". All that are in those documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, sir, for the details you have given us and the statement you have given us. We are going to use all these when we are trying to find the truth at last. Thank you very much.

WITNESS: Sir, I am not through with my report yet. These things must be known. Fair, I left Port Elizabeth, I went to Johannesburg. When I got to Johannesburg it was during the same year in November. The reason why I am here, I want to tell you something.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, sir, please just hold on. ...documents because we, no Tata, I think we have given you... No, hold on a minute.

WITNESS: This is a 'casper' that crushed my car.

INTERPRETER: Ladies and gentlemen, I am sorry the microphone is off.

WITNESS: Sir, I am sorry to do this to you, but I must show you these things. This is the 'casper' that crushed my car. This thing happened to me in Soweto. A 'casper' came to me and tried to crush me. It came to me. My wife was admitted at Baragwanath Hospital.

If you do not want me to say the things that I want to say now, why am I here in this Commission? I suffered. If you did not suffer, I suffered. I was nearly killed by the 'casper'. Here is the picture. It is the same 'casper' that got Molly Blackburn. I was on the right side of the road. It was a ploy. I do not know what I meant to this case.

CHAIRPERSON: I have given you an hour in which you have made your presentation. We are saying, hand in, which you have done, without elaboration. All of this is going to be part of the record of the Commission. We have given you ample time which we do want to give to as many people as possible for them to be able to tell their story. The documentation is illustrative. It is not to say we did not want to hear all the things. We have heard it and you have handed in this article which covers most of your experience. Thank you.

WITNESS: Thank you, Honourable priest for giving me the chance.

WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Like I said before, even though we are not a court, it is important for us to give the people a chance to give their statements. They must be given a fair chance. When I say order I must not repeat that. If I had said it once, you are not children. I know you are people who can take care of yourselves well. Let us not disgrace ourselves here now. If I say order once, that should be enough. Thank you.

(?): Chairperson, I call the next witness, Mr Sizani Madlavu and will ask him to please come forward. Mr Madlavu, would you please make sure you have the headphones on. Thank you very much. Could I say to the briefer, please put the lights on and leave it on because that is an overriding microphone. You do not have to put it on and off. Just to help the witness to be as relaxed as possible. Mr Madlavu, the person sitting next to you is he a friend or related to you?

WITNESS: Yes, he is my son.

(?): We welcome him as well very warmly. Thank you very much indeed. May I say to you both a very warm welcome. Mr Madlavu, you are coming with a very heavy story, a story of the death and the killing of your son in 1987 in the midst of great turmoil and chaos in Uitenhage and in Eastern Cape in general. We understand that it causes you very much pain. We hope that you will feel very free because this is your chance to tell your own story exactly how you know it. In order to assist you we are going to ask one of our fellow committee members to lead you.

Mr SIZANI MADLAVU D.S.S.

WITNESS: I am also going to ask him to be forgiven because I am hurting inside.

(?): We understand and we care about you very much. Ms Tiny Maya is going to take over from me now to help you tell that very sad story. Thank you.

Ms T MAYA: Mr Madlavu, greetings to you. I would like, sir, before we start, please tell us about yourself, especially your son, Ngangelizwe. Just tell us who he was.

WITNESS: My son's name is Ngangelizwe. I am going to start talking about him. When this chaos started it was obvious that we were not going to be happy at home at all because at midnight doors would be kicked, people would come in from the back and front. People coming in who wore balaclavas together with policemen. They were looking for Mbompo and this Nceba. At time he was a teacher. He was not in the house. When they come in and they did not see the one they were looking for they would just damage the house and leave. They did this on several occasions. It looked like my children did not want to stay at home at all. They would have to stay away.

One day when they came they came to take this one. They kicked the door as usual. They asked: "Where is your son, Nceba, not the small one. Where is Ngangelizwe?" This one was here. No, this one was not in. I told them, no, he is away teaching. They said: "Where is Ngangelizwe?"

I said I do not know because we were not happy here at home. He usually hides himself wherever he can.

Ms T MAYA: At this time when they were asking you this, could you see who they were?

WITNESS: At some stage I would only see one because they were masked.

Ms T MAYA: Meaning these people, you knew them?

WITNESS: Yes, they were policemen. When everything calmed down, one of the policemen came to me and said: "You know, during the struggle I can see people trying to struggle for freedom, but I am the one who came to your house." I did not see him then because he was masked.

Ms T MAYA: Well, sir, on this particular day when they came in and asked your son, what happened?

WITNESS: On the previous day, that is now my youngest son, he could not even go to school. Even at school they did not know where he was. He could not go to school because these people were searching for him at school as well. He was still playing at Mabandla Street and one of the kids saw him. He ran, I do not know whether he went to the police or where, but I was from the shop, walking. I past my son. When I was on my way to my house I saw him going. He was just running away.

Somebody told me that my son was being chased. When I looked it was an army of people. They were in and out of the streets looking for my son. When I tried to catch my son it was difficult. He was already running to the other streets. It was difficult for me to go through the streets because they were very long. I forgot the name of this particular street. When he was crossing that street he saw a door opening at a certain house. When he tried to get to that house they closed the door and then he fell. These people came when he was already on the ground. That is when they beat him up. I cannot say whether it was this or that one because they were all over him.

Ms T MAYA: When this happened, could you see them, or was it still the people who covered themselves?

WITNESS: Some of them masked themselves, but some of them were not masked. I did not know them because they were mixed with police.

Ms T MAYA: When he fell, where were you? How far were you?

WITNESS: I was coming from another street when he fell. I was trying to get into this particular street. When I got there he was already dead. When I arrived there they were through with him. They left.

Ms T MAYA: In what condition was he when you got there?

WITNESS: He was dead already when I got there. He was dead with a smile. I held him, but he was dead even though he had a smile on his face.

Ms T MAYA: What happened after that?

WITNESS: He laid there almost the whole day. Police from the Council came saying, no, they cannot take a person who belongs to the UDF. I asked them how long he was going to stay here. I was just trying to think now what I was going to do. Which way will I go because these people are the government. Whatever the person was, I mean if the person is dead he is supposed to be taken care of. I was still going up and down because I could not look at him like that. When I came back he was not there anymore. I quickly went to the police station but he was not there either. Obviously they had hidden him some place which I do not know.

They said I must come back. When I did I found him there. We were told to wait they were going to look for the postmortem. Strange enough there was no doctor there. It was prisoners who were doing this.

Ms T MAYA: What did you see, sir? What happened?

WITNESS: When I got there one of the prisoners was actually shifting him out now. They pushed me out. They said I must not come in, I must not see. Even during all that I was not that much hurt because my son said to me: "One man must die for the whole nation". That is what soothed me.

Even during the time that he was being chased by these policemen he used to say to me: "No, Tata, we are also human", but look what happened to him. The following day when he would show me a wound I would tell him he must not do these things. He would just laugh and say, "Dad, do not be like this. We cannot help it. This is a struggle."

Ms T MAYA: Sir, this wound that you are talking about, which one was it?

WITNESS: He was talking about this thing today and the following day that is when he was killed. There is a bush next to St Albans. That is when they were taken away from the bush and they were chased. When they were chased he fell. That is how he got this wound. The following day he could not go to school. Then, on this particular day, that is the day he died.

Ms T MAYA: How old was he, sir?

WITNESS: I am sorry, you will forgive me. I do not know how old he was. I was not expecting this kind of question.

Ms T MAYA: Was he a member of any community organisation, sir? What I am trying to find out from you now, why was he in this kind of trouble?

WITNESS: I am not able to say he was a member of any organisation because I was in organisations. But I could see that he was also participating in some of these meetings.

I will not be able to say yes or no because he was still very young and I was not thinking that he could be part of any organisation. I did not think that he could be a member of any organisation since he was young.

Ms T MAYA: Sir, you said you had a wish, because you have a grandchild that was left by Ngangelizwe. You said you wanted to talk about your wish. What is that wish?

WITNESS: If it is possible I would like the Commission to help him with his education. My only income is my pension. The thing that hurts me the most is that this Kinikini you are talking about is my uncle. The time when we were from the meeting people were toyi-toying saying that they are going up to this place. I could see that this is my uncle's car that was in flames. No one was allowed to come closer to this car. He had kids, very small kids. It was a terrible sight. A person being burnt, they would turn him around with a stick. These were women from the churches. They would put the kids into these sticks and throw them into these fires. For days these bodies were just laying there. Eventually I called the police because I was wondering how long this was going to carry on.

Ms T MAYA: Thank you, sir. I just want to ask you a last question. According to your wishes now is there anything else other than the help of your grandchild?

WITNESS: No, there is nothing else that I can actually tell or say to you. You cannot put a price on a person. So I cannot say this much, that is why I said please just take care of this grandchild so that when I die I know that there is somebody taking care of him.

Ms T MAYA: Just a small part of this. I know that it looks like there was an inquest about the death of your son.

WITNESS: Yes, there was. The policemen took two of my cousins. They said they must go to Uitenhage. None of that group was there. None of the people who were there was there. It is very difficult for me to say anything about them. I have no energy, no power to do this because even these two people are my relatives.

Ms T MAYA: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else with a question?

Ms T MAYA: There is another thing, sir. I am sorry, reverend. There is something that I forgot. When they were trying to look for these two young...

TAPE 1 ENDS

TAPE 2 (b) BEGINS

PART OF EVIDENCE NOT RECORDED DUE TO CHANGING OF CASSETTE.

WITNESS: ... trying to find out where is the youngest. Some would say he was in a boot, he has been taken to Langa. For a long time I did not know where my son was. I went overseas and at that time I did not even know where my son was. I had no knowledge at all. On the third week I was asked to come and tell them the story, on a Monday. When I was preparing to go to the office of the Major on Monday morning, he came to me and said they knew what happened to my son. He said we must go to the cell. When I got there there was this young man called Jantjies. He was dusting the place. He said: "No, mama, we killed your son on Saturday. We threw rocks at him." Then we were told not to come back on Sunday to witness the hanging of an informist child.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

(?): Mama, it has been 10 years when this happened. We know that you cannot forget the way that you lost your family especially the way that you lost them. It even hurts us to know that that there are people who can do things like these in such a manner. Our aim is to try and improve the way that we are living in this country so that the things that happened in the past does not happen again.

We are trying to expose these things that happened in the past so that people who are living now will not repeat these things. It is painful, Mama, we know. These people who did these things to your family, you are still living with them. Now what you are saying about the people who said people must witness the hanging of an informer, we also feel the pain even if it is years ago. When you talk about it we visualise it and it is painful to us as well. Mama, I would ask you now to please let us continue. Our job here is to expose the truth, the way the people were put into terrible conditions. Mama, do you have something more to talk about before I ask questions?

WITNESS: When these two sons were hung, that is when I said there are not only two people who killed the deceased. It is the whole Uitenhage. I was told not to say anything, I must just sit. I do not know if I should say this aside, but there is something more.

(?): Mama, you are here to say things the way you know and how you know them. So if you wish not to say it here now you may not, but if you want us to hear about it, it is alright, you can say it. If you think that you are not in a good position to say it, you are not forced to say it.

WITNESS: At the time when I arrived where I live now in town I decided to make up my bed just to see if I could again. I was trying to think what other things that happened to me. I said I have lost two houses and the other one we are still building.

An office of the Home Trust which we hired for the Home Trust people, it was helping the Xhosa speaking people. It was a barracks. Garages and a house of a caretaker, he wrote all of those things down. When I came back from overseas I was told that the President finally sent the money, it was about R200 000,00. When I went there in the morning it looked like the boere were also against me. Even that money went astray.

(?): Mama, are you telling us that there was money to compensate for the loss of your estates and when you asked for it you did not get it?

WITNESS: Yes, that is true. When I came to ask for it I was told that there is no money. The money has been sent back.

(?): Thank you, Mama. Let us go back a little, Mama. You said there were about three white men who arrived at your house on a Saturday.

WITNESS: They said they were coming in with trucks.

(?): Could you tell us a little about these three men? Where were they from?

WITNESS: They were detectives from Uitenhage. I cannot remember their surnames now.

(?): Was it the first time you saw them?

WITNESS: Yes, it was the first time for me to see them.

(?): I just want to find out more. You said they came three times? Are you saying they came in three times on the Saturday, or they came in on three Saturday?

WITNESS: No, I just sent them outside to tell my husband.

(?): Did they went outside and then come in again?

WITNESS: Yes.

(?): Your husband and your sons, when did they die? How do you relate the death of your family with these people who are in the house now?

WITNESS: My eldest daughter told me that my family was dead already. It was in the morning.

(?): Now about these three policemen who told you to load all your goods in these trucks, did they come in when your family was already dead? You did not know anything about that?

WITNESS: No, I did not. I only noticed that when I got out of the truck that the barracks has been burnt. They sent a hippo into my house. They put me into this hippo and the children were put into the trucks with goods.

Ms T MAYA: In your opinion, did you think that these three policemen knew about the death of your family?

WITNESS: Yes, because they told my daughter that my husband is dead already, he has been murdered.

Ms T MAYA: When they came to your house to pick you up did they know that your family was dead already?

WITNESS: Yes.

Ms T MAYA: I just want to ask you a last question. When these white policemen came in with the hippos at your house, how did you view all this? As Linda has said, these hippos kept on coming and they were actually protecting you because you were threatened by the community, how did you view all this being guarded by the police?

WITNESS: I did not like it at all because I was not used to it, but there was nothing I could do because we were not on good terms with the community. I spoke to them on the telephone.

Ms T MAYA: When was the last time you saw him face to face?

WITNESS: I only spoke to him over the phone. Even when he called me he called me on the phone.

Ms T MAYA: Thank you, Mama. Thank you, Linda.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

(?): I do not want to ask many questions. It is a very difficult time for you both. First, can you just tell us again the ages of the children who were killed together with your husband? How old were they?

WITNESS: Silumko was 20 years, Luvuyo was 13. These two were brothers to my husband and I do not know they ages. It was somewhere there.

(?): ... court case following the death of your husband and the children?

WITNESS: Yes, there was. It was at Uitenhage. Even there, when I had to go to court I was escorted by a policeman as if I was a prisoner. I could not go there on my own.

(?): ...with the killing?

WITNESS: Two were hung.

(?): ..and that has to do with something you said right towards the end, that the President's fund made an amount of R200 000,00 available, but that it was gone missing. Can you tell us who you spoke to, which office you went to, some details about that because we would like to know more about that.

WITNESS: We had this conversation on the phone. He told me to come in the morning to come and fetch the money. In the morning there was a telephone call and I was told that I cannot have access to the money.

(?): Could you tell the Commission who phoned you and from which office? Can you remember the name?

WITNESS: It was Mr Basson.

(?): Which department was he from?

WITNESS: He was in the department of KwaNobuhle Town Council.

(?): Is he still there today?

WITNESS: Yes, he is still there. The one who was with him at work has now passed on. I tried to investigate. I went to Mr Ndlovu in New Brighten trying to tell him my problem that nobody has given me any information about the money. He said he wrote to the Master of the Courts at Uitenhage.

(?): ...result of that? Did you get any more information after he wrote to the court in Uitenhage?

WITNESS: No, I did not go to the court in Uitenhage. There was a letter written to the Master of the Courts in Uitenhage.

(?): ...Uitenhage court. You know that the Commission can try and help people. Would you like us to try and find out what happened to that money that was supposed to go to you and your family from the President's fund?

WITNESS: I would be very much happy.

(?): We will do what we can. Thank you for answering the questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobode?

Ms Gobode: Mama, you said in your statement that you gave to us, you told us how you were taken from South Africa overseas to talk to some journalists overseas and when you came back you were promised that there are things that you will be given, but when you came back nothing happened.

Could you just tell us who took you overseas and how long did you stay there? Who are the journalists that you spoke to?

WITNESS: I left with Linda and Reverend Pondo from Port Elizabeth. In Johannesburg, I cannot remember the name of the Chairperson, I left with him and his wife and some of his friends together with another Indian from Durban.

Ms Gobode: Mama, where exactly did you go? Did you go to America or England?

WITNESS: I did not hear you.

Ms Gobode: I was asking, where exactly did you go abroad?

WITNESS: I went to London and America.

Ms Gobode: The reason why I am asking you this is because even now you have a request. It looks like you have been asking for certain requests but none of those happened. What I want to emphasise to you is that Commission is committed to fulfill all the promises that it makes to people. We are going to try by all means, thank you, Mama.

WITNESS: Even now I cannot sell the site of the barracks. People from Uitenhage are still preventing from doing it. Dr Maqhina wanted that site, but he also could not get it because obviously it was supposed to be sold to somebody from Uitenhage.

Ms Gobode: Thank you, Mama.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

Rev B FINCA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mama Kinikini, in your statement you said at the end of 1985 you, Linda Tamsanqa, Reverend Pondo, three white gentlemen and an Indian went to London, to America. Can you still remember the names of these three white men and the name of this Indian you were talking about?

WITNESS: No, I cannot remember their names, but I still have their photos.

Rev B FINCA: Thank you. Were they friends to your husband? Were they representatives of a certain organisation?

WITNESS: No.

Rev B FINCA: Lastly, in your statement you said you were promised by Mr Phillip that there were things that he was going to do for you. Do you know whether this Mr Phillip was promising you in his own capacity or was he representing somebody?

WITNESS: No, he said he was a representative of Linda. He was the Port Elizabeth mayor at that time.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Anyone else with a question?

WITNESS: I have a request to the Commission to please investigate from the Uitenhage people what exactly did we do, because there is no reason why a person can be killed just for a key to a hall. It looks that there is something more than just this key.

There are certain people who used the community to kill my father and my brothers. I am asking the Commission to please investigate deeply what we have done to the Uitenhage community. That is my request to the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Linda and Mama, there are a lot of horrible things that happened at the time when people were fighting against apartheid. This is why we say the reasons, the many ways that people tried to fight for freedom, are things that some of us could not endure. We want to show to you that our sympathy goes to you for the way that you lost your loved ones. The aim of this Commission in trying to find the roots of the truth. One of the aims is that some of the things, for example those you have told us, must not happen again in our country. Even when people are not on good terms, people are arguing, we want that in this country people must argue but not kill each other. If someone has an opinion on how to do something and the other one has another opinion that should not be the reason why people murder each other, no matter how bad things go. Arguments should not be the reason why people murder each other. We hope that all of us in this country can live in a peaceful manner. This Commission has been appointed to help all of us so that when that day comes when people argue they can argue but at the end of the day be able to live together. Thank you very much.

We have heard your request and we will do everything in our power to see how much we can succeed in fulfilling your request. Thank you.

(?): Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Mlandeli Noto Guntu and I ask him to please come forward.

CHAIRPERSON: People, please listen. Why does it seem you do not listen. Why must me repeat the same thing now and then? You are going to get tired of this now.

(?): Mr Guntu, welcome. Thank you for being so understanding about the sudden change in the programme. We appreciate very much your patience. You are going to give evidence in Xhosa, but you do not need the headphones.

Mr MLANDELI NOTO GUNTU

(?): Mr Guntu, you are not going to tell the Commission about a member of the family but really about your own experience and what happened to you. You are from New Brighton?

WITNESS: Yes.

(?): So you feel very at home. You feel relaxed. We are very delighted that you have taken the trouble to come to the Commission and to help us get the complete picture which will enable us to make our report to the President. As you know we ask someone on the Commission to help in the leading of the questions. In this case it is Cannon Pundu.

I am going to hand over now to my brother and my colleague to take over from me. Thank you.

Cannon PUNDU: Good morning, Mr Mlandeli Noto Guntu. This is the first time for me to hear a name like Noto. You have your own story that you are going to tell the Commission, the way you were struggling to have the freedom that we have in this country. When you were doing this you were under oppression and you could not take part in the struggle because of the injustice of the past. Please tell us your story on your own. Tell us where you were born, what kind of a home, thank you.

WITNESS: Thank you very much, Reverend. Before I can start with what you are asking me now I would like to show how much I do not like some of the conditions that the Truth Commission is working under. First I am one of the people who do not like the fact that we cannot express ourselves fully. That makes me a victim. I am not a perpetrator. I do not want to help the perpetrators to be kept hidden. If the Truth and Reconciliation Act says some of the names cannot be named, I want to say it clearly that I am going to mention them. Even before we came to this hearing today we heard that there are people who do not want their names to be heard. We are not going to remind them what they did to us because it looks like if they do not want their names to be heard we are going to say the things that they did to us.

I just want to tell the Commission that I did not bring along my statement because I want to say it with my own mouth.

Cannon PUNDU: Thank you, you can proceed.

WITNESS: As the Reverend has said, I was born here in New Brighton at Stokwe. Stokwe is a street behind Centenary. Next to you, Reverend, there is a Reverend Barney Pityana, he was one of our neighbours at home. When I started to realize who I am in South Africa, he is one of the people who helped me out in the political side of it. When I joined SASM (South African Students Movement) When I was first arrested it was during 1976. In all the things that I did I do not know exactly what it is that I did to break the law. That time it was a time of black consciousness. It was unfortunate that just when I was arrested I lost one of my parents.

As I grew up, we were six in our family, I was the first one to have a political awareness. That made me one of the first one to bring COSAS here in Port Elizabeth. After that I went to study in Transkei. From there I came back to Port Elizabeth because COSAS took a decision that the youth must be revived, the youth that was not part of COSAS. South African Youth Congress was formed after that. Then I became very active in UDF. My presence here is because of my role that I took when I was a member of the UDF and before that.

Cannon PUNDU: This organisation, was it an affiliate of UDF?

WITNESS: Yes, it was. My presence here now is because of the role that I played in the UDF. Because I was from COSAS... Let me start it from when I was at COSAS. I was on delegation that went to say the grievances that were shown by the people of Port Elizabeth. Reverend Abenezer Mzwandile Maqhina was part of it. When we went there to voice our grievances I was one of those people because I knew that when I was with the South African Students Movement we used to meet with this Reverend especially during these plays that he used to do. These were some of the plays that used to help people showing them and let them know who they are politically. When we got there he scolded at us. We withdrew then because we were full of fear at that time. He used to say something once and there would be people who would be suppressing to what he had just said, for example, if you see somebody with a knife or a stick, if you are in front of the group he will start with you. If you are behind the first one you will be the victim of the first one because he will fall over you.

I was in the office of the UDF. I was a voluntary worker, meaning I received no payment for this work. During my work at UDF I found myself having more tasks, some of it was with the media.

Because the UDF was established in 1983, in 1984 one of the challenges that I was faced with was to collect million signatures from people. Even then I was one of the people to collect all these signatures.

During the funerals of the people who were shot at that time I was one of the people who used to have connections with the doctors. If there were any injuries one of my jobs was to get the doctors for the injured people. Another rather painful job that I used to do which I was not trained was for me to go along to be a bodyguard of the President of the UDF.

Cannon PUNDU: You said to us you went to Lesotho. When you came back from Lesotho you were tortured and even arrested. Could you please elaborate on this to the Commission?

WITNESS: Thank you, Reverend. Before I can go to your questions, Reverend, I just want to mention something. I was one of the people who collected the signatures. I was warned by one of my friends that I must not go and sleep at home, I must be very careful. Because I was the one who kept the signatures I would be found with the signature. One night I was not at home. On a particular day I was at home only to find out that that was the day that I was fetched by the police. The signatures that I had which I came with from the meeting disappeared until today.

The policemen simply denied that they had all these signatures.

Cannon PUNDU: Do you know the policemen you came to fetch you?

WITNESS: Yes, I know all of them. One of them, Gideo Niewoudt said to me I must not mention him today.

Cannon PUNDU: Please proceed.

WITNESS: From there I went to Lesotho. Even amongst my friends in the organisation, they warned me. Even when I came back from Lesotho they told me that anyone I speak to outside this country is going to be found out by the organisation. I went to Lesotho and I came back. When I went back again to Lesotho, this was the second time, I was not at home, I was in the UDF office. I was told that I have a phone call next door. I then heard that at home things are terrible, there are dogs, detectives, that there were people, and that there were detecting machines and were looking for ammunition. I was not worried because I knew that I did not have any ammunition.

Before I went to the office of the UDF I was trying to dodge the policemen right here next to Centenary. I was going to get a bus to town. There is a bus stop right here in front of the hall. I tried to take the bus on the other side. While I was trying to dodge this bus stop I got the others on the other side but they did not do anything to me, but it was about an hour that was at the office of the Holy Erf.

I was shocked because I did not know what was going on. I was told that there were police at home. I was not even sure whether they wanted something from my home or whether they wanted me personally.

Late at night, that time I had not met the police again, there was a meeting at Roma at Zwide. I was at this meeting. The police arrived, Gideo and Freddie van Wyk appeared on the door. They just appeared and left again. Because I never said "no" when somebody asked me to do something I was asked to go and check in the cars to find out what was going on. When I got there, when I was checking the cars, I did not see anything. I did not see anyone. It was just quiet. Then I decided to go to the gate. When I got to the gate, I do not know where the police came from, they just appeared immediately after me, just behind me. One of them was Mahode who pushed me Tungata. Tungata said: "Why are you pushing me?" I said: "You could see that I was pushed." Then he slapped me on my face.

Cannon PUNDU: Tungata and Mahode, are they policemen?

WITNESS: Yes, they are policemen.

Cannon PUNDU: Go on.

WITNESS: They were attached to the Special Branch Department. We I said to him that he could see that I was pushed, I did not do this on purpose, he did say anything more to me.

He kicked me and he beat me up. Afterwards I was forced to wear spectacles because he kicked right across my eyes. After that, when I read, the words get blurry.

After I was arrested by the police they asked me about my trips to Lesotho. Because I knew that there was nothing wrong with my trips to the Lesotho and I was not breaking any law by going to Lesotho, I was just very surprised when I got a pile of this size of photos. Some of the people that I saw in those photos were people that I knew. When I saw these people I saw people that I knew, people from Port Elizabeth. They were not people that I did not know. When I came back to Port Elizabeth I was arrested. That was the time that I was questioned about those photos. One of those photos was Visumzi Pikoli's photos. Unfortunately I only spoke to him for a short while when I was outside the country.

During my time of interrogation the police told me that we know that are other people that you have met with that you do not want to tell the truth about. I also want to tell you this. The police of the Special Branch, it was very easy for a person to be confused especially those who are not so familiar in Port Elizabeth. One of them was Van Zyl. He did not really have good looks.

He was a threat just by looking at him. On that day when he said he was declaring a war with me, after asking me a lot of questions and not getting the answers that he was hoping for, it was then that I realised that he is telling the truth that he was declaring a war with me.

I realised now what was going on when I got to the offices of the UDF which was on the first floor. It used to be occupied by Abenezer Mzwandile Maqhina. It was in the same building on the second floor. I met him on the steps. He said to me, let me put it in his language: "You think you are clever, we are going to show you who people are." At the time when he said this to me he was with four or five men, one of them was his son. His name was Sandi.

Cannon PUNDU: What is the connection between Mr Maqhina and what was said by the police saying that he is declaring war with you?

WITNESS: He said this two or three days after I have been told that this policeman is declaring was with me. That time the policemen were trying to have a rift between me and what I was doing for the UDF. They were trying to put me into their side and not the UDF side. That day when they saw I did not want to run away from them they would just stop the car and come to me and greet me, shake my hand. Obviously it was their camphane to get me onto their side.

On that day when he told me he was going to show me who people are, I did not take him seriously because I knew that he used to say things that he did not mean.

Later it was discovered that people were arrested and people were beaten up by Maqhina I was part of the delegation going to Reo. We were part of those people who wanted Mkhuseli to be released. A day after that...

Cannon PUNDU: Where was Mkhuseli arrested?

WITNESS: He was in Maqhina's house at Masangwana. A day after that when I got home I was told that obviously my movements were not ones that they were in favour of. I was now forced to have some

TAPE 2(b) ENDS

TAPE 2A BEGINS

WITNESS: He is my grandson.

Cannon PUNDU: Where is he now, sir?

WITNESS: He is at school

Cannon PUNDU: Now about throttling him with a towel, how did that affect him?

WITNESS: It looked that there was something that affected him. I am not a doctor. I do not know what a towel does to a person when he is throttled by it.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

(?): Sir, there is only question to the gentleman here. The Uitenhage Court took care of this inquest.

WITNESS: Yes. They said there was no case.

(?): Was there anybody found guilty of the offence, of this murder? Was there person found guilty for the murder of your son?

WITNESS: Yes.

(?): Do you know the name of the judge who was handling the case?

WITNESS: No, I would not know the name of the judge. It was even the first time for me to go to Uitenhage.

(?): Do you know the name of the lawyer?

WITNESS: No, I did not have a lawyer.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for taking trouble to come to us. Our sympathy goes to you for all the hurt that you had to go through. What we are going to try and do according to the powers that we have, we are going to find the truth and medicine that will heal our country to make us one. Something that will unite all of us and make us one so that we can have reconciliation. Thank you very much for having sympathy for other people while you have your own problems and your own hurt. That is called humanity. Something that we are trying our country to have and everybody should have humanity. That is what we are trying to have now so that everybody can stop being selfish. Thank you very much.

WITNESS: Thank you, Bishop, but I am sorry there is something else that I would like to ask. Do not take me wrong my Bishop, you cannot make peace with somebody who does not come to you and tell you what he has done. We will have peace only when somebody comes to you and say this is what I did. I did this and this and that and that. If they do not come, if we do not know who they are, we would not be able to. But now I will forgive somebody who has. That is the whole truth, sir. We take it that the people who are listening and the people who are coming to the Commission will be touched as well. Their conscience will tell them that if they want forgiveness, they should come and expose themselves so that they can also get the healing that the victims are getting.

(?): This is why we are trying to investigate the truth. Thank you.

WITNESS: Thank you, Bishop, but there is something more. I do not want to lie to this House. Yes, Bishop you are my Bishop. I will not be able to forgive anyone until I know who they are. Then I will shake their hands otherwise I will not be able to forgive somebody that I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. We are now going to break for tea. Order please. We will come back at 11h15. Do you not understand English. Let me tell you this in Xhosa. Please be obedient. Please close the doors. Let us show respect to the witnesses until they leave. Let us all stand.

ADJOURNS RESUMES

CHAIRPERSON: ... each family underwent. It is wonderful to have the vindication that we have now.

(?): I forgot by the way. Barney is a Reverend doctor. Doctor Pityana.

CHAIRPERSON: I have told him to join us at the table. We are not going to allow him to ask questions. We just want to see how beautiful he is. He has a beautiful nose, more than mine.

(?): Chairperson, I would not comment on mine. Chairperson, in view of the fact that a number of witnesses have already mentioned the name of Kinikini after consultation we have decided to invite Mrs Kinikini to come as the next witness. We will change the order very slightly. So I call as the next witness Ms Nombuzo Kinikini and I ask her please to come to the witness stand. We are just waiting until the earphones are in place to make absolutely sure that the witness can hear and that we can hear her. Mrs Kinikini, can you hear my voice on the earphone?

Mrs KINIKINI: Yes.

(?): And you can hear the Xhosa translation?

Mrs KINIKINI: Yes.

(?): Good. Mrs Kinikini, are you going to give evidence?

Mrs KINIKINI: I asked by daughter to give evidence.

(?): So your daughter are going to speak for you today?

Mrs KINIKINI: Some of it.

(?): You are both going to speak?

Mrs KINIKINI: Yes.

(?): That is fine. So that means I must ask both of you to take the oath.

Mrs NOMBUZO KINIKINI D.S.S.

Ms LINDA KINIKINI D.S.S.

Dr BORRAINE: Mrs Kinikini, the evidence that you and your daughter are going to give is very, deeply painful and very hurtful. We know it is not going to be easy for you. We are very greatful that you have come. As the Chairperson has said today and many other times, our doors are wide open for everyone who has been hurt in the conflict that has taken place in our country. I want you to be very relaxed and feel free to tell the story as you experienced it. We are going to ask my colleague Pumla Gobode to lead you as you tell that story. When you are finished, then we will turn to your daughter as well. Be strong and know that we are listening to you with hearts that care for you. Thank you.

Mr GOBODE: My greetings to you Mama and Linda. The Deputy Chairperson has mentioned that Mr Kinikini is bringing in with us a very difficult and sad case. She has come to tell us about the brutal killing of four male members of her family. Her husband, Tamsanqa Kinikini and sons, Luvuyo, Qondile, Jelimesi and Silumko.

The very third day when members of a community rise against each other, but I think it is important to place this in a context, the events that occurred when Mr Kinikini lost her husband and sons, were preceded by a government strategy to implement what it calls reforms.

The apartheid States at the time insisted on putting in place in many townships in the country Councillors, people that they percieved could govern the townships separately to the way that the rest of the cities were governed. To do that they enforced elections in very many communities and of course many people did not accept this system as a viable system for their political and social existence.

Nonetheless the government went ahead and appointed members of communities and Councillors to govern other in places where these people were not acceptable. It was a foregone conclusion that if the government adopted this stunt there is no way that there would be peaceful existence between the people appointed by the government itself and the communities that they were supposed to serve.

Mrs Kinikini lost members of her family very brutally. In a very inhuman manner they were burnt to death and their charred bodies were found in the building that hoosed the family business. The method of killing was popularly known in the country and abroad as the "necklace" method of killing. So called because it involved the placing of a tyre with petrol around the victim's neck and igniting it with matches. You can visualize what happen when a person have to endure the long pain before their actual death.

Burning of human bodies throughout the world and throughout history is a method of killing that is only reserved for the worst of the worst in communities. The lowest of the low. I cannot help but be reminded of the way crucification was used during the time of Christ. When Mrs Kinikini lost members of her family, the world was aghast at this system of killing which spread out throughout the country.

Perhaps throughout cities in our country, perhaps there is no other period in the country than the mid 1980's that aroused a profusion of professional jargon. When the "necklace" method became wide spread in the country, psychologists revisited crowd psychology theories. They came up with a number of theories and ideas, trying to make sense of this senseless method of killing.

The South African law also invokes some professional jargon. They referred to the way in which they understood what was happening as common purpose action. That was their own jargon. Surprisingly the adoption of common purpose was not used to understand the many killings that were instituted by police in collective action against community. There were other pluries used to understand that in the law. The human rights lawyers in defence of people charged with such cases, took the doctraine of common purpose on his head they stood it on its head and it invoked more jargon and the theory of de-individuation was used to explain the senselessness of the "necklace" murder which essentially stated that people who were involved in these murders were not in their senses. They did not fully comprehend what they were doing.

Journalists as another group of professionals, simply reported what was happening as black on black violence. An expression which conceals more than reveals the true picture of what was happening in our townships in our country. We in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission are committed to revealing what the truthful situation in these cases were. One of the truth that we know about that period is that there was a very heavy presence of police, armoured vehicles, the army in all townships, particularly in Uitenhage. Uitenhage is perhaps the first place where the idea of the use of police and the army was implemented, yet it is hard to understand how these burning were perpetuated throughout the country. How come is it that the there were so many people who were killed in this most brutal and inhuman way when there was such a heavy police presence in these townships. The police became visible more visible when we heard of massacres. People were killed in masses in the townships by the police. The subject of mass killings brings us directly to what Mrs Kinikini is going to tell us. In fact the events preceding the killing of Mrs Kinikini's family are surrounded by a lot of activity by police who stopped a crowdless people walking to a funeral to bury some of their comrades. They are stopped by the police, forced to disperse, to turn back and instructed not to hold the funeral of the people they were going to bury.

20 people are shot and killed. Mrs Kinikini's family was killed on the day following those events. Mama please take off your earphones, then you can talk to the Commission and crowd in here. Mama, again my greetings to you. Like Doctor Borainne has said to you, loosing your loved ones, in fact the whole of your family is not something good. It is very hurting, it is very painful, especially the way that they died. Now please Mama, tell us briefly how you and your husband started your business before 1985, as business people, just tell us when did you start your business, and how?

WITNESS: I got married to the deceased on 1 August 1950. We had our own family in a small house, but we decided to look for a small house which was a four-roomed house. He used to work at Goodyear. I said to him let us start a business, meat business and sell milk. The business went well for a while when he was working at the Goodyear, I would be outside the firm selling some of the goods. This went on for a while and then we decided to change our four-roomed house into a bigger house. We used to live at Puku, this big house was at Puku. We used to hear some noise on the ceiling in this house, and we were forced to bring it down because even the kids were restless at night.

There were things knocking on the ceiling, then we decided now to bring down the house, and then we build it with bricks. That is how everything started. I was already doing my business at that time.

Ms GOBODE: Mama, what year was that, it looks like when you started with your business it was 1960, now when did the trouble start?

Keep your microphone on please. As I was asking Mama, when the trouble started, when did that actually start, and what kind of trouble was it?

WITNESS: All of a sudden I was not doing well with my neighbours. They would bring some medicines into the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: This Commission is said to listen to everyone. It is therefore important that everyone should be given a chance to say his or her truth as he or she sees it. ...to intimidate any of the witnesses. We are a free country today because we have said we want tolerance. People are free under our new constitution to hold whatever point of view. I am going to ask you to give each and everyone a chance to speak freely because if you do not give a person a chance we are not going to be able to go ahead with the task that we have been given. We have been given this task by the President of this country, so please I am asking you with respect, please. If you are not going to obey what I am asking you now, I am going to ask the crowd now to leave so that we can be able to listen to the witnesses. So please.

WITNESS: In 1963, when I was living at Puku with my two kids, the trouble with the neighbour started.

Ms P GOBODE: Mama, I wanted to find out about your business and the way you were living? How did you get your income, that is actually what I would like you to tell us. You started your own business. How did you do that, let us do that right now?

WITNESS: We collected a few cents, and when they were sizeable then we started to build our own brick house. We moved to number 20, in the same street at Kwa-Langa, KwaNobuhle, then we stayed a happy life there. Things got bad in 1984. I am going to ask my daughter now to continue from here.

Ms P GOBODE: Linda, please tell us what happened, what went wrong? Are you going to start where your father was a Councillor? Please tell us there when was your father appointed as a Councillor?

WITNESS: I am not sure of the year when he started to be a Councillor, I was still very young then. I think I was ten or eleven that time, therefore I am not sure, but I know that he was a Councillor. He became a Councillor when he already had his own business. He started his business at a place called Ndikindiki. He had a building that was used as a crèche, and he used it for his business. That time he was not a Councillor, there were toyi-toyis at that time but he was not affected by them. He would go to certain funerals, and he went on with his business, even at Kwa-Nobuhle, he used to help other people whether a person had money or not, he would be able to help some people. Even at the time when he was already a Councillor, people who did not have houses would go to him and ask him. He did not discriminate, whether you are poor or rich, he would help you. While he was still at Kwa-Nobuhle he had a very close friend, Mr Bona Dili. Mr Bona Dili was a mayor, and he was a Councillor. He was a very close with Bona Dili. On Fridays Bona Dili would help my father with the bodies to go and take the bodies to the people. On certain Saturdays, about 14 people would be buried and Bona Dili would help my father with his work. Mr Bona Dili, wanted to open his own business, and my father said, no there is nothing wrong with that.

Ms P GOBODE: I am now going to ask Mama, so that we can be able to hear from her how she saw the death of her husband and her sons. Mama can you tell us how did you find out about the death of your family?

WITNESS: It was on a Saturday morning at dawn, I saw one of his friends, called Xola, I asked where are the others? He said they are still sleeping in the barracks. Later three white men wearing short tracksuits entered my house, they asked me, do you still have intention of those offsleeps staying in this house? I said no I want to leave, I have been telling my husband that I want to leave this place, because nothing is going to come right again in this place. They just looked down they asked me three times, and they would just look down three times, they said to me I must just collect all clothes, all my belongings in the house, and my things were just thrown in the truck that was parked outside. At that time there was chaos outside. About their death I did not witness it with my own eyes I was told. I was told that he was stabbed by spade on his head, then they stabbed him several times. He was made to drink petrol, they put a tyre over him and then they ignited him. During this time my younger son was hiding under the car, some of the petrol got to him and when he was trying to escape somebody saw him. Silumko was hiding in one of the shops at Mboya. He asked one of the businessmen to hide him under the counter, they took him and they ignited him alive in front of the shop. I am telling you as it is. They cut his testicles while he was still alive. Then on Monday at the police station, the doctor told me that he was going inject me, at that time I had not seen them yet, when I got in, I will not be able to tell you about the head of my husband.

(?) : For example, people throwing stones at your home, after the people were guarding your home?

WITNESS: It happened after the attack of Mr Mono Badela's attack, they attacked four times. During all those occasions there used to be fights that used to last a long time. The first day was 18 June 1985, the first person to see that this is the place was the person who used to stay right opposite where I used to live, this person was heard when he pointed, identifying my home, one of my brothers was at home. My father and one of my sisters got out of the house, and they were driven out of the house into the street and there were other people who were called in. There was a long fight.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any person injured in that fight?

WITNESS: On the first incident no, no one was injured. It was on the second attack, these people were coming from the Msimka Street, they were attacking from another path, which was very near my home, and they were throwing stones. At that time there was already this guard around my home, on that day the fighting lasted for three hours it shifted up to the back of the Centenary Hall, that is where the policemen arrived.

When they arrived they shot on the side of the people coming from Stokwe Street. At that time I was not there because I could not be with them, I was with Tatu Fasi and Mr Ngoyi. On the third time of the attack, one of those people was arrested. When he was asked where they were from, or who sent them, he confirmed where they were from.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this person still alive, if we try to investigate?

WITNESS: When he confessed all these things I did not see him, but the people who arrested him, they do not know what happened to him later. He is one of the people who actually said that Mzwandile Maqhina is very much involved in this, and the reason why they were there is because they were from Masangwana.

Something which we could not really differentiate was that AZAPO members were the ones being used to go and attack. In June 1985 when the State of Emergency was declared we were going to a funeral in Cradock. It was very difficult for me to trust Port Elizabeth at all, I was not feeling free at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any person who was injured to such an extent that he had to be taken to a doctor?

WITNESS: Because of the health that I used to look for the injured people. My brothers were attacked and my father was attacked, but there were others as well, there is just one who was just injured just above the eye, he got a cut, and there were damages made in the houses just around our own house.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of these people? Do you know the name of the person who got injured?

WITNESS: No, I cannot remember his name, I cannot even see him around anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in our story as we are trying to conclude, before I give my colleague a chance, is there anything that you wish the Commission can do, maybe a commemoration that the Commission can do for you?

WITNESS: Because of the nature of this attack. Point number 1; the SADF police were involved in this fourth attack, the house was vandalised, nobody could stay in the house from 1985 until the beginning of 1986. The house was just a hall, that really got me very angry to see that Mzwandile Maqhina has been awarded as a citizen of Port Elizabeth to be given the Councillorship. It looks like people in Port Elizabeth

simply forgot about what he did. The things that he did, made me to come to the Commission and tell the Commission all the things that he did and ask the Commission, if the Commission can on behalf of everybody who was involved. People who we were threatened by [Inaudible...] to withdraw whatever Maqhina was awarded.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else that, sorry we would like you please to be quite. Is there anything else that you want to the Commission to do for you, besides this?

WITNESS: Thank you, Reverend, another is through the Truth Commission, I would like to thank the people who went to guard my home. When I could not go and protect my family they went there to guard my family. I know those people now are those people who now we call unemployable. But if the Commission can give those people some skills so that they can be able to live, to do something for themselves. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else who has a question, Pumla Gobode? There are many people who came here to listen, but now people who want me to keep on repeating what I have said as if I am a broken record.

APPLAUSE

Thank you, very much, yes Pumla Gobode. Thank you, Mlandeli. Do you use Mlandeli or Noto?

WITNESS: I use both.

(?) : I am just touched by the way you say these people who used to help you during that time, it is not a usual thing that people remember each other like this, especially the way that you do, people do not usually remember those who had helped them. About the peace award that was given Maqhina, this particular mayor who gave him the price, are you talking about this mayor that is sitting over here right now?

WITNESS: I am talking about the one that we voted for on 1 November 1995, he is here, here he is.

APPLAUSE

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. The reason why I am asking that is because Maqhina's name has been appearing a lot of times in people's statements. I am just trying to find out now, between you and the mayor, what are the reasons that are given for him to be given this award. According to the mayor, why is he giving this person this award?

WITNESS: I will not know really the motivation for him to be given this award. All I know is that, when he came back and he was trying to clean up his act, those are the things that made people to quickly forget what he had. If he is just left there, instead to be awarded of all the things that he had done, without coming forward and tell the people what he did, that will make people not to rest.

APPLAUSE

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you are trying to say that truth must be exposed before any awards can be given to people?

APPLAUSE

I hope that those who read the bible know that there must be the truth before the award. Because next time we are going to refuse you from coming in here. The accounts of the various people who come before the Commission. Yes, some of the things that are said here they make us happy, some make us very sad. We have been given a very important task, this is not a show what we are doing. We are trying to get medicines to heal up our wounds. Yes witnesses will come in, they are going to show us certain ways and certain things that happened. But now if we are turning this into a rally we are not doing it well, because now at the end of the day when we are going to give a report of this, you will find that there was no truth that was coming out because people were afraid, because there was a rally. The hearing turned out to be a rally.

Especially those people who were not members of any organisations, they will be scared to come over now. I really must warn you, it is the last time. I do not want to do this, but this is the last time, and that everybody knows that they will be free to express their point of view. We were also in the struggle, there are many things that make us also feel hurt, things that are painful to us, but our job has to be accepted by everyone in this country. Last Wednesday, we went to see the President, he emphasised that, "I do not like the fact that I am meeting you alone because there are other people who will say, "no he was just trying to be bias, he was just telling them to go in a certain direction." The Truth Commission is seen to be even handed, but even more than that, do not make us a laughing stock, because people will say because these things are under now blacks, now everything is turned into a bioscope, please I do not want to do anything painful to you now, because I know that stories that you are listening to now, these things remind you of what you also went through and it takes some of the burden. Out of all the hearings that we have had, we have not heard a crowd of this size. That means that people of this place, some of the them once politicised people in South Africa. But this also shows things that we have been saying all the time during the struggle that we are disciplined people, people who obey their leaders. We know your pain and we know your joy. We share them but let us not undermine the effectiveness of this forum, let us not undermine its dignity, let us not undermine its even handedness. Now you must not just tell me that this comes through this ear and goes through the other ear.

Mr Guntu there is something that I have noticed out of the things that you have said. You said things that are not in the statement, that is in front of us. Do you know how that happened?

WITNESS: It is true that there are other things that I did not mention because the person who was leading me was trying to make me say things in a brief manner. There are other things that I wanted to say, some of the things were things that showed that my life was also in danger. There is also something else that I have not said before in that case.

During the time when my home was guarded I was with the president of the UDF and his Vice-President, their lives were also on my shoulders. I was responsible for their safety. On this particular day when we were at Madala, I just want to interrupt there, I wanted a confirmation just for the sake of the people with me my colleagues here.

Rev B FINCA: The white policemen who have interrogated you, but you have gone beyond that in your oral evidence today. I just wanted to confirm that you are aware that has happened?

WITNESS: Could you just repeat the part that you said it is there that I have not mentioned?

Rev B FINCA: You say that at the beginning of your evidence, you put forward your own view point about the modus operandi of the Commission vis-a-vis the question of the naming of perpetrators. I need to raise this question because I am sure it is going to arise at one point or the other. That in your written statement you have not given the name of the perpetrators but in your oral evidence you have done so, I want just to confirm that you are aware that has happened.

WITNESS: Yes, I know that has happened. But what I want to say is that what you have in front of you now, is not the actual statement, those are just guidelines of what I was going to talk about.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much, we are old citizens. We have to acknowledge that it was the youth who with great courage changed things around. Because we used to just say things with our own mouths and not do anything. But it was the youth, your lives as it were where your mouths were, and we want to acknowledge that. You did some wonderful things. There were other things of course that were awful that you did, we acknowledge that as well. But we do want to pay a tribute to yourselves and others for the contribution that you made to the struggle that has helped us to be where we are, so that today we can sit as one nation, looking at our past. A past that is disgraceful in many of the things that happened, the awful deeds that were committed on all sides of that struggle for us to be able to deal with that past and say, we have said all that needs to be said then, ... very much for having been willing to come even though you criticized us over the way that we were conducting ourselves, thank you. ... and to show our respects to the witnesses, we adjourn for lunch until 14h00, please stand.

ADJOURNS RESUMES

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. You know when you really want to keep quiet you can be quiet, please keep quiet. Thank you,

(?) : Mr Neer let me on behalf of the Commission welcome you very warmly. I must tell you that we are delighted to see you for two reasons. First of all we are very concerned about safety and security, and with you here we feel very safe and very secure. But we also are glad that you are here. We know that you have a very busy life and you have sat very patiently all day. But also because it is important for us to know what happened to many people in the jails of our country, and the torture which took place and you have experience that at first hand. In a moment you are going to tell us about that, and we look forward to hearing from you, not because we like to hear these stories, but because it is important for us to get to the truth.

Mr DENNIS NEER D.S.S.

(?) : Thank you very much. Please be seated, as you know we always invite one of our panel to lead the evidence for successive witnesses, and in this instance Miss Tiny Maya is going to take over from me now. The Commission once again is grateful to you and looks forward to hearing from you. Thank you.

Ms T MAYA: Firstly, before I can greet you, Mr Dennis Neer said that I must explain that he wants to tell us freely his statement. Nobody must lead him, and because of that he chose not to give us a written statement, so he wants to tell us how he wants to say it orally. Over to you.

WITNESS: My testimony in both languages, in some areas of the statement I will address myself in English, in some areas I will address in Xhosa. I do so because I believe in cases where one is emotional, you have to express yourself in your own language. Firstly, let me indicate that I am not here for popularity nor do I want to be famous. I think I am famous enough. I am here because I want to make a call. I want to make a call to all those former South African Police members. Particularly within the Security Branch who have committed serious crimes in violation of human rights, to come forward to this Truth Commission and relate the stories, indicate as to who gave the instruction as well as give details of those atrocities. This is the opportunity and quoting Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza, yesterday when there was a launch of the investigating team that; "now is the time for people to come forward with information". It will be regrettable if people do not come now and are exposed during the investigation. I would also ask all the people to come forward because we know that there are many people who have been injured and disappeared during the State of Emergency. ... I said because I am coming here because of the people who tortured me. There are people who had been tortured more than I did, people who were young, who were in prisons as well.

Now coming to why I was tortured as much as I was. Firstly, I was born at Dubula in New Brighton, and I was brought up here. I got my education here in Port Elizabeth. I started politics in 1960, during the State of Emergency at the time I was doing Standard 5 at Konika, that was the time when we saw sarazens crossing the streets. We as students, asked ourselves what was going on. We were aware of the meetings that were happening at Mlotheni. We would sneak out and go and attend. At that time we would run quickly home so that your parents would not see you in the meetings. They would find you in the house.

That is how I got involved in the politics. The first time I threw a stone was at that time. We used to at the tanks, we liked the sound that used to "ping ping" on the tanks. During my student years in 1986, we were engaged in a strike at Lovedale. I was one of the people who organised that strike at Lovedale, such that at the time I could not get another school after that. I tried to apply in all the schools and then I forced myself into studying in one of the schools in Cape Town and I was arrested. Because my father had connections with one of those policemen then I was released. Usually on weekends, I would go around in my uniform of Langa High so that I would appear as a student, otherwise I would not have survived, I stayed there for two years until I passed my matric. When I was still at Ford Township there was a worker's strike. I will not really get into the details of the strike, but I just want to tell you the events of how I came to get into this place now, and the reasons why the police were after me so much. We were involved in that strike quite a lot, until 1980 when we formed Makhusa and then the following year it was Igusa Component Workers Union, that is Makhusa, I mean General Workers Union of South Africa, which I was a General Secretary until 1985. That is when I was appointed as the provincial General-Secretary of COSATU . ... through to Zimbabwe. The first meeting in Lesotho, I met Comrade Thozamile Botha, and one Comrade called Malume, I do not know his name. Then I was requested to brief the SACTU leadership about developments within the country as far as trade unions are involved. In the second meeting again, I went to brief the Executive of SACTU, broadly representative of ANC and SACP and SACTU as the alliance about developments of negotiations towards one trade union in South Africa, one federation.

The third meeting in Lesotho was, I went specifically with three other comrades to go and meet Comrade Chris Hani. The fourth one I went with some of the comrades, but I met Comrades Moses Mabida, alone we discussed a number of issues then we came back. These were focal points detention. Then the other two trips, the first one I cannot remember, but it was in 1984 I think to Zimbabwe. We were invited by SACTU, we were detained at the Airport, the whole night because we did not have valid passports. They do not recognise these things, but fortunately for us before we were sent over to take the next plane home because we smuggled a note out and gave directions that they must contact members of the ANC, then ANC leadership arrived they negotiated and we were released into their hands. We met a number of people, leadership of SADTU, ANC and the party, we attended a workshop. The second one was towards the end of 1984, I am not sure, early 1985 to Zimbabwe as well. Again we were detained because we did not have valid passports. Some of our Comrades were sent back including Comrade Thobile Mhlahlo, but two of us managed to go in, we were handed over to the ANC and we had a meeting.

I think, judging from the interrogation during my torture that the focal point of the Security Branch was around the (XHOSA).: I denied being in the meetings. I just said this is my home because I am also Sotho- speaking. I am telling the truth now because you are not going to do anything to me now. I was taken away from Ford Motor Company, especially during the strike, and interrogated at Sanlam, because of my activities within the trade union movement. And the focal point was specially around meetings, trips to Lesotho and finally Zimbabwe.

In short, now it so happened now that at one weekend after comrades Goniwe were killed, we attended the funeral in Cradock, and after the funeral myself and one comrade decided not to leave because there were a number of people who did not have transport because (XHOSA) so we felt ... let us collect them because there is a state of emergency. We do not know what is going to happen there to them. We collected them into a church and we sat with them there the whole night until the following morning. We organised transport then I think we arrived on a Sunday here in Port Elizabeth in the evening at about 19h00. I remember going to bed because I could not sleep the previous night. I went to bed, at about 01h00, I am not sure. I was awaken by an assault by a person wearing a balaclava who happened to be Sergeant Faku then, who unfortunately has been killed by a bomb. He assaulted me, at that stage I did not know who it was. There were a number of others who were taking turns in assaulting, and I tried to protect myself until I felt my arms were getting weak because this chap was using a kiri, a very short kiri. I decided to jump for my firearm which was of course unlicensed. But as soon as I touched the firearm to shoot at this person, I heard a voice in Afrikaans saying "What is going on". I am in trouble, I pushed the firearm away. Then we lit the paraffin lamp because there was no electricity, then taking it I realised there is Lieutenant Strydom here, then he said; "we have you brother, put on your clothes". I grabbed a few items, unfortunately for me they did not give me enough chance because I had to wear takkies and other things in the car. During this assault there were all cries from the other room, from my kids, especially the one who was in the cot in the room, because I discovered later that the cot had fallen over, and the child was grappling around, you see. Then in that commotion, I managed to assess that the kids were being assaulted as well. Then they put me in the land-rover, something similar to a land-rover, but it is a police van with a sieve at the back. Then Strydom asked some of my Executive Colleagues, Thobile Mhlahlo, Themba Duze and Hlathi. Well I denied knowing where they are. Then they assaulted me, after that they closed the door, went back into the house, they broke off the telephone lines. I heard later that they sprayed tear-gas inside the house. Then we left, it was a very war-like situation because along the street I realised when the van was moving that there were SADF personnel with their rifles along the street. They were standing along side us left and right, in that process. That is why I am calling for people to come up. Before we came to Themba Duze's house a number of houses were ransacked, people were assaulted, they ran out of their houses and it is difficult for me to remember those. I think two or three houses before we came to Themba Duze's house, I was still alone in the van.

They went into Themba Duze. They kicked down the door. They could not find anybody. Strydom came back to me, assaulted me. I told him I do not know Duze, because he came into the van and he was using fists, sometimes a short baton. Then again they moved to Thobile Mhlahlo's place. They broke windows, kicked down doors. There was nobody. Strydom again, came back he assaulted me and then I did not say anything. Then we left to Hlathi's place. We found Hlathi, he was assaulted put into the van, went back to Lamani's garage where they were converging. At Lamani's garage, one security identified the house where Duze was. We went there we found Duze, of course, I was in the van they assaulted him, they put him in the van. Unfortunately an innocent person was arriving, I do not know from where, driving a vehicle, I cannot remember now, and as he was about to enter his house. He came out of the car, he opened the gate, they went to him. Fortunately he was very close to the van, they asked him where he comes from, he says he is coming back home, he had visited somebody else somewhere. They assaulted him. He had to leave his car run into the house, when we started crying saying that these policemen are cruel, ... we coughed because we knew that tear-gas was part of our lives.

... this van there is a big iron trunk, an corrugated iron trunk with some rifles, but it is locked. As they drive they make sure that this thing is hitting on our feet, so much so that whilst you were in the van you had to pick up your feet, so that this thing does not hit on you because we tried to hold it with our feet but we could not. At Motherwell, Vusi was taken out of his house. He was assaulted, windows were broken, he was brought into the van. Ultimately, we got to Algoa Park. At Algoa Park we met most other activists who are present here today, it is only then that we realised that we were not alone. In fact, let me indicate one minor incident, at Salt Lake during the early hours of the morning, I think it was going to about 04h00 or 05h00, it was still dark. They went to fetch another coloured Trade Unionist who was there. You know there is a street that goes right down into the lake, but there is another one at the bottom. What happened whilst we were sitting and this van was parked to face the water we realised that the van was moving down and we could not see any driver. We shouted that the van is moving and some of the policemen were laughing, and we realised maybe we are going into the lake. Only to find out that the driver was asleep, no he was not sleeping he was sitting on the seat, he could see the van going down ... put on the brakes. That was to torment us, so that we may think that we are going with the van into the lake, but that was one minor incident. At Algoa Park I was called again by Lieutenant Strydom and Coetzee, a certain Coetzee always with a two-way radio, wherever he is he has that two-way radio in his hand. Then they again asked the whereabouts of Thobile Mhlahlo, and again they assaulted me. At that stage I realised that my inner parts of my mouth were torn and I was numb. Now, here, I want to show powers that, although not being constitutionally or legally handed over to the officials of the prisons. But you could see this collusion between the Security Branch or the police and officials of the prison. Brutality was happening inside prison in detention as well as outside. So, whether you are there charged or not charged, the brutality continues. I am not going to go into detail but there is one incident at our arrival all of us, all the activists will remember that day.

We were stripped naked, including Reverend Soga and Reverend Mbethe, young and old naked. When I say naked, I mean nakedness. And they were claiming they were checking as to whether we do not have any marks. They used a baton to lift up your private parts and inspect them. Then after some time we were allowed to look in the heap for our clothing. This happens in front and in full view and with the permission of the head of the prison, Lieutenant Steyn, because he was leading in fact. We were received by him at reception, he was telling us what to do. I just want to show the link between the prison authorities and the South African Police. I am saying South African Police because they were not in service then. Then, the first week, members from the activists were called in for interrogation, four or five at a time. They would come back with marks of torture, and most of them were saying, "Dennis there is another man called Taylor in there. He says he is waiting for the day you would come in because you seem like a quite person, but you have been working underground for the ANC". In the evening we would relate the stories of this torture. I think some members did indicate what "helicopter" meant, I am not going into detail. Most of the members went through that "helicopter" treatment.

Then my day came, it was on a Friday, we were with Reverend Soga, Reverend Mbethe, Mpumi Odolo, I cannot remember some of them, I am just mentioning a few. We were loaded into a kombi, taken to Louis Le Grange. When we go there we were taken to various offices at the 7th floor, I was also sent to an office of Lieutenant Strydom. Normally when you go into an office, the first thing, you would pull a chair. He just kept saying, "no, you cannot sit down in my office". This surprised me. Well this Taylor, this notorious Taylor, he had an orange sjambok with him. Then he looked at Strydom, and the Lieutenant Strydom said, "yes, Dennis come up with the truth". I said, "which truth?" Well, a young boy, called Mziyila Thungatha came forward and clapped me. I was very furious, but I decided not to be provoked, I just pushed him away.

Taylor came, I think, I had about two or three shots with this sjambok. Then I decided I am a human being I must defend myself. I got hold of the chair, then Strydom said, "no wait". He spoke to Faku, Faku went out, a few minutes he came with handcuffs. I was handcuffed at the back. This boy Mziyila, came forward and he clapped me, well I could not do anything. Then Faku came forward, I had a tracksuit, they pulled the tracksuit over my face, they tied it somewhere here. There was only a small opening like that, where I could only see my feet. I could not move my head up like this because this thing was holding me, then I was taken by my belt. Lieutenant Strydom said to somebody, I do not know but I recognised his voice to say, "wait, wait" then they closed the door. After a minute, somebody opened the door and said, "no it is safe" then they went with me down the passage, I do not know to which direction.

Then a door opened, I was pushed inside, then I heard the noise of the door shutting. Then I thought this is a sound-proof room. It could have been the door was closed very softly, I do not know. But in my mind I convinced myself that I am in a sound-proof room. Then nobody said anything, I picked up that there were two sjamboks now, because I kept moving in the room trying to at least bump against somebody or something, because these two people, one this side and one this side, were just assaulting me back and front. Then it only would stop when Conway, I realise later that it is him because at one interrogation he asked me the same questions in the same manner, the same number of questions, it is only then that I realised that it is Conway.

Conway asked me about these six trips, then I said, "I told you what happened, I have nothing more." Then the assault started until I got bored, and I could not feel anything because my whole body was numb, I was just full of bruises all over my body. Something was going to happen because somebody came to the front and held me at my shoulders and tried to kick my private parts.

Then I would bend, then somebody was hitting me at my lower back with something like a pick handle, something like that. Then this would continue, front and back. If I bent to the back then this guy hits me, if I bent to the front when he hits me this one kicks me. So it happened and happened, intermittently they would ask questions. I would presume that took about something like one and a half to two hours, because I calculated the time of going back to the prison, when I was at the prison I started calculating as to, I am sure by the time we went to my place, I am coming to that.

Then this continued until, I do not know when, then I realised that in the process I had bumped against something like a desk or table. Then I got relieved, I do not know what caused that. Then I realised I am in a room that is being used, what for, I do not know because I bumped against this table. Then I felt this should be my protection, I do not want to move away from this table. Then these two would move, then this sjamboking would continue. I realised during this process that I was no more. No, before that I had a pricking feeling on one of my toes. Somebody, I realised later had tramped on my naked foot with a heel because one of my small fingers here apparently had been fractured or something had happened, because from there on I was moving sort of limping.

Then I realised that my feet were no more on the ground, then something told me that these guys have lifted me now, you think things would happen so quickly. Then I would try to struggle with my hands at the back, and I realised that somebody had released me, and immediately I turned so that I would not be banged against my forehead, ... slipped, seemingly this was a tiled or slippery floor. We slipped until I bumped my head against the wall, and temporarily, I was knocked unconscious. By the time I realised conscious, came to, was when they were suffocating me, because I realised somebody had sat on my shoulders and the other one was turning neck, at the same time suffocating me. Then I got weak I could not struggle any longer because they had me on the ground. It is at this time that I heard somebody asking, "do you have any weapons" because the questioning was so focused around some people, and I thought that, you know because of my involvement with those people I cannot sell them. Then I admitted my weapon, and I thought it is the only moment for me, because I had assumed at one stage that I might die here, that is the only time that I said I do have a weapon.

Then immediately I was taken on to my feet. "Where is it?" I said the weapon is at home, because I was running away ... about my activities with the other comrades. Then I was taken to the door, still with the hood after a brief moment, because everything was quiet. The doors opened, the hood was taken off, I came face to face with a very old white man. He looked at me and said just one thing, "you are too late". That is why I say, Lieutenant Strydom and his group must come and tell me what was late that day. Briefly I was taken to the bathroom to wash my face, the handcuffs were taken off, and were put on again behind my back.

I noticed that my hands were numb and beginning to swell, and I was taken into a car, a Chevrolet car, driven by van Wyk and Loots. Loots is the one who is being charged in the bombing of Faku. Faku was also present, they drove me, Strydom and others were following. Just before we get to Algoa Park, there was an open field there. Then van Wyk, who is now at VIP security in Bisho, he is protecting me now.

APPLAUSE

He was driving, he parked along the route, the hood was on but at least I could see in front of me. If I had to look straight up, I had to bent backwards like that. Then Loots cocked his gun, then I realised something is going to happen, and then when he realised that I saw him cocking the gun or heard him, he turned and said, "Dennis I am giving you two choices now. The first choice is that we are going to take the handcuffs off. We let you out of that door, we shoot you, and we say you were running". The second choice, which was very interesting for the first time to me, "the second choice is that we are going to take you to Maqhina's place and there they will cut you into pieces."

I want an opportunity to speak to Loots because I am his boss now, and say, "Lords could you please tell me about these two options". I think he can still remember them. Then briefly we were led by a black car. It is very famous in the township, that black car, and an additional van. We went to my place, they searched. I want to be short. They searched the house, ransacked, tore the floors and the roof because I had wooden floor, searching for this weapon. Fortunately, it was missing because somebody within the family had taken it away. They tore my mattresses, and my couches with a knife, Loots was doing it, this boy, very notorious boy, he was tearing my mattresses and the couches with a knife ... in the house where I had some of my property, they stole some of my money there which I ultimately got back. I had old coins, pennies, etcetera. Loots took them away, and I demanded them back from Strydom and I got them back.

1. We finally landed back at Louis Le Grange. I am trying to be brief. They had difficulty in taking these things. Comrades who were there will still remember, I think Reverend Soga, will still remember if he is still around, that there was a delay, a very lengthy delay of about 20 to 25 minutes. They were waiting at the bottom and they were panicking because we were going to be late at the prison, because we are locked at 15h45 for the night. They had problems. Firstly, nobody could find the key, then Faku was sent to go look somewhere else. He came back saying no, he cannot find them. Then I could see the security people were panicking. Then after that they found the keys, but they could not pull the handcuffs out. It is old type of handcuffs, I do not know what had happened, but after they had taken them off. I do not know what the problem was, whether it was the handcuffs or my swollen hands, but when they took them off. I realised that I had cuts, there are still marks on my wrists, but they were not really bleeding except to say that they were superficial. Then, I was taken by this young man called Bahlekazi, who suddenly came into the picture and took me to the kombi, I asked him, where were you all the time? He said "who are the people who beat you up, who were the people who assaulted you?" I said I do not know, I am asking you, you are the one who should know, what are you doing here? ... I could not sleep that night, my whole body was painful, it was difficult because we were sleeping on mats, I can still see some of the prisons that are still using those mats, there are no beds as yet. You had to go down to the floor in order to sleep or to sit. I could not sleep that night, I remember I was begged time and again by Reverend Soga and Reverend Mbethe to relax. I told them I cannot go down to the floor because of the soreness in my body, the pain that I had. Well of course they prayed for me, and I ultimately, I think in the early hours of the morning forced myself because I was tired, I was nauseous, I managed. Then the following morning, the trolley came around, the famous prison trolley, and then I was given some, just ordinary pain tablets, then I was told the doctor will be available on Monday. Since that time and the time I was referred to the doctor at Livingstone Hospital, I could not pass water, I could not eat. I remember on a Sunday afternoon, one comrade waking me up and saying, please give me your two eggs, we could only eat eggs on Sundays, and of course the comrades were very helpful... Then, on Monday I sent to the doctor, then I was referred to the Livingstone Hospital. I saw the doctor, he was about two metres away from me. It was the white policeman, uniformed policeman, the two who had escorted me to Livingstone, who was talking to the doctor on my behalf. Then the doctor prescribed

X-rays and treatment on my behalf through the policeman, gave the policeman everything. This was an Indian doctor, I do not know his name. Then I was taken to X-ray, fortunately there were no cracks or fractures whatever, but muscles were torn. This reminds me that during the time I was being. It is just brief, I am sorry I have to go back, just when I was lying on the floor with this people trying to do this, I realised that the pick handle that they were using to knock me at the back, they had put in between my hands, and they were twisting them. I am reminded by the fact that the doctor said I had torn muscles on my left and right. The of course prison life was prison life, I think in as far as torture and everything...

At some stage lastly when I was in prison, I was called by this notorious Nieuwoudt for interrogation in the prison premises, in the presence of his Sergeant called Koen, comrades will remember, "that red head" Koen. The I remember Niewoudt's words, his very popular statement. I do not want to go into details of the interrogation, he was trying to involve me in one case, but unfortunately for him he could not. He said, "Dennis, you seem to be very arrogant and not wanting to tell the truth, what I think I should say to you is that I will make you famous." This "famous" statement, most of the people he had said those statements to has died, then I got worried when I heard that, unfortunately for him I am still living. Then after that, this Sergeant Koen, this collaboration. I am trying to show this collaboration. This Sergeant Koen, who is a prison warder, he is a Sergeant then, said to Niewoudt, "Why do you not take this man and put a tyre around his neck and put him on fire?" Niewoudt, never replied to that , he even stopped that warder from saying that. But I faced Koen the other day, and he apologised, that was whilst I was still in detention, he apologised to say no he was joking, but I said to him that is a very serious joke. Anyway, I wanted to say that, that is briefly what I wanted to say, if that testimony is brief.

(?) : Mr Neer, you have mentioned that one of your children fell from her cot during the course of the scuffle that took place in your house, what effect has this had on her health, both emotionally and physically?

WITNESS: Well, whilst we were in detention, the first three months we were not allowed to see any family member, Comrades will remember 1985. We were not allowed to see any family member, those that were fortunate did see, but the rest of the so-called activists, or leadership within the organisation did not. The first visit, I was told my child had fits, epilepsy. Then this happened of course for the next two years, because it happened one time, she got the episode of fits when I was with her the other day ... then I took her to Doctor Mtye who helped me a great deal. But I have noticed that child that she is very withdrawn, and she has problems at school. Unfortunately for her, she could not get any psychiatric or psychological treatment, because I am also busy in my work and sometimes it causes a situation that you may find yourself not being attending to some of your family problems.

I think she does need that, I was fortunate that, through contacts with the United Nations Commission on Human Rights of which invited me at one stage to Zimbabwe to go and testify, and I did, and through efforts of other people that a trip was organised for me to get psychiatric or psychological treatment in London. But because there was a doctor available I agreed to attend to the doctor here, who was recommended by that group in London, and I am saying fortunately for me I did get that treatment.

(?) : Thank you, that is all

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any questions, Doctor Borainne?

Dr BORAINNE: Mr Neer, thank you very much. I want to ask you a question in terms of South Africa's commitment to build a human right's culture. It seems from what we have heard from you and many others who have testified in different parts of South Africa, the torture was wide spread in South African jails. Do you, as someone who has enormous responsibility now, do you think that torture is still being used in our jails? And do you think that torture can ever be justified in any country?

WITNESS: Firstly, I think I am of the view that some elements of torture are still being used in the prisons, we do get some reports that this is continuing. It is continuing because I think the South African Police service members, some of them are not yet transformed, and I do not think, of course it is my role and everybody's role to see to it that the SAPS is transformed. You know, there are a number of things that you can see that people are not ready for transformation, I was searched this morning by one Sergeant here.

He does not know me that I am his boss, then one of my guards intervened and showed him the SAPS certificate, then he withdrew, I went back to him, I said, "what did you want to do to me"? He said, "I am searching everybody". Then I said, "Do you know who I am"? He said, "No". Then I said, "Please go and find out" I hope he has, he is still inside the building. Well, I am talking about transformation, that we have a very big role, and I am appreciative of the initiatives taken by this forum to be helpful in trying to be a catalyst in this transformation process. I am saying some members of the SAPS who are still conducting these elements of torture are giving us a problem in our transformation. The second question is that torture is a form of action that cannot be tolerated. I have undergone through it, most people have undergone it, it is a situation that a prisoner or somebody in detention or custody is a helpless person. He or she has no form of defence physically that he or she can use, because of the situation in which one person finds himself or herself. Therefore, torture is totally not acceptable, it is a gross violation of a person's human rights.

Dr BORAINNE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobode?

Ms P GOBODE: Thank you. You have shared with us a number of very unhappy stories, experiences that you had. What I want to ask you is sort of a general question, but perhaps specific as well because it relates to your experience. I would like you to share with us what you think the consequences of the kinds of experiences that you have are on young people? A number of people in this room and elsewhere experience similar torture, finding themselves humiliated in front of others, finding themselves helpless in situations where they are rendered totally impotent and powerless to deal with a situation. What are the consequences of this suffering when you look back?

WITNESS: It is going to be difficult to say these are the consequences. But I can only say that torture has a psychological effect, a very prolonged psychological effect on anybody, I have experienced it. Well, of course it depends on the extent that one has undergone pain in certain areas. For instance, if I may quote myself, I have a lifelong damage to my lower back vertebrae, I am constantly under treatment from my orthopaedic surgeon, that is the result of that.

Ms P GOBODE: How did it change who you are, if it did?

WITNESS: It changes one emotionally. But being a politician I do not allow myself to be guided by emotions because of the torture. Because I would not be able to help transformation, particularly within the SAPS. It has such negative impact, it depends on who has received what kind of treatment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Suka?

Ms Y SUKA: I think you know that part of our job is to make recommendations about how to put measures into effect, so that things like torture never happen again in our prisons. You said that you know that at certain levels it still happens. There is a view also, that there are certain people who should never be placed in command, because when they are in control of people in particular situations they abuse the authority they have. Do you have anything that you can recommend to the Commission about how this can be reformed in our prisons and with policemen as well?

WITNESS: Well, part of the process has been launched yesterday, and I am grateful for that, that is the launch by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission by Commissioner Dumisa Ntsebeza. I would also want, further to that, that, a Committee be put into place to visit the prisons, and interview people, maybe through that process we would be in a position to extract the brutality that is still continuing. Because our democracy is only two years old, I do not assume or think for a moment that people who were conducting this brutality will automatically, within two years change and be other people. They will from time to time commit mistakes, I would call them mistakes, because I do not think they can do that deliberately, if they do we do not need such people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ntsiki Sandi?

Mr N SANDI: Mr Minister, in the process of implementing the reforms which you have mentioned, is there any interaction between your department and what people normally call the organs of the civil society?

WITNESS: Yes, we do have what we call the Secretariat within the Ministry of Safety and Security, both nationally and provincially. The role of the Secretariat is to assist the Minister or the MEC in its community policing strategy, to link activities within the community with those activities within the police, so that it would also in a way facilitate a quicker process towards transforming the SAPS.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dumisa Ntsebeza?

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Thank you, Mr Minister, I just for the record want to ask you if everything you have said here to the best of your recollection is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth?

Can you confirm that?

WITNESS: Again, I want to reiterate what I responded to initially that the details I have given here is the whole truth of what had happened. I am prepared to face whoever is trying to contest what I have said here. Mr D NTSEBEZA: Just to round off that point, is it your evidence that you have not falsely accused any of the persons you mention here, including Niewoudt? And I understand, you will correct me if I am wrong. Is Niewoudt, you are mentioning here the gentlemen who is known as Lieutenant Colonel Niewoudt, who brought an application for certain names not to be mentioned, certainly not his name, is that who you are talking about?

WITNESS: That is exactly the person I am talking about, and I do not make a mistake about everything here. Instead I could have forgotten some of the things, but I wish to also indicate that this may be the beginning of statements like these. A lot more will be coming, I am sure during the process you will be exposed to.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: I am asking because as you indicated at the beginning of your testimony, you had not given the Commission any statement that on the base of which he could have been given notice that his name is going to be mentioned, and therefore, I would just like to make sure that we have the names of all the people that you have mentioned so that we can in terms of the Act then go on to mention them, including the rider that you say you are prepared to meet them and face them at any forum. Can I just confirm that you mentioned a certain Mr Faku, but you say that one died in the Motherwell bombing? Is that correct?

WITNESS: That is correct.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Niewoudt, you have mentioned?

WITNESS: Yes.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: He is still very much alive. Now Mr Taylor?

WITNESS: Taylor, I do not know his rank, but I can try and get hold of it as to what rank he held at that particular time.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Is he still serving?

WITNESS: Well, I have not found out, I am trying to find out some of them, like for instance, Loots himself, it is only then that I got hold of him when he was exposed in this case. I do not know where this Taylor is.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Thungatha?

WITNESS: Thungatha, yes both of them I mentioned.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Yes, Thungatha is he still serving?

WITNESS: He is still serving.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: van Wyk?

WITNESS: van Wyk, is in the VIP in Bisho.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: He is the one you say is your protection?

WITNESS: He is one of our body guards.

APPLAUSE

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Do you know if he has anything to do with the so called "spyker" van Wyk, you do not know whether he is the same person?

WITNESS: Well, I would not know, I only know him as van Wyk.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: As van Wyk?

WITNESS: What I have noticed is that he is not with his famous beard anymore, he is clean shaved.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: I see. And Lords, you have accounted for. Mr Strydom, is he still a serving member?

WITNESS: I was trying to trace him, I have asked about him when I visited Louis Le Grange, people seem to behave like they do not know where he is. But I am still tracing them, I think history will expose them like it did to Lords.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Alright. Now there was a name I did not get, is it Cornway?

WITNESS: Cornway.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Cornway, was he also a member of ...

WITNESS: He was the one who was interrogating me during the assault.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Yes, is he still serving?

WITNESS: I have not found him.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: Are these from, and Koen was he from prison?

WITNESS: He is in the prison.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: He is still there?

WITNESS: I hope he is still there.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: And Steyn?

WITNESS: Lieutenant Steyn, I met him when we visited with the Premier, he has been promoted now, he behaves to be a very welcoming chap when you are there. He is no more the stain that we used to see, because I think he is doing that because of our positions.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: So he is still in prison?

WITNESS: He is still there at the time when I met him I think sometime last year.

Mr D NTSEBENZA: I am sure you were not made to strip naked with the Premier when you visited this last time? Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mcebisi Xundu?

Mr M XUNDU: The question I wanted to ask is, would you be prepared to undergo cross-examination by Niewoudt and others, should they desire to do that?

WITNESS: If it is from the Truth Commission yes, but not any other

person that wants to come and cross-examine me.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you for your very clear account and we will want to take very seriously as we do with everybody the submission that you have made to the Commission. We hope as you do that people will be rehabilitated, people will change as our country has changed and thank you for your own contribution to ensuring that this change will have taken place. Thank you.

ADJOURNS RESUMES

Mr A BORRAINE: I will be grateful if he could come up to the witness stand, please?

CHAIRPERSON: If you do not keep quiet we would not be able to start people.

Mr A BORRAINE: Mr Wandile Appolis, first I am sorry that you had to wait such a long time. Let me just check to make quite sure you can hear my voice. You can?

WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you clearly.

Mr A BORRAINE: Thank you. My name is Alex Borraine and I am addressing you on behalf of the Commission and sitting in front of you is the Chairperson, Archbishop Tutu. Other members of the Commission are sitting right in front of you and they are waiting to hear your story. Without getting up, please remain seated.

Mr WANDILE APPOLIS D.S.S.

Mr A BORRAINE: Mr Appolis, you are going to tell us the story of what happened in 1985 which changed your whole life where you were shot and had become blind and have the other injuries which you would tell us about. It is a very dark story that you will tell. But you have already shown today your great courage and we are very grateful indeed that you have come before the Commission and we are very interested to hear from you in order to try and assist you as we have done with everyone else. Whatever the Commissioner is going to take from you now and guide you as you tell you story. Her name is Yasmin Sooka. She comes from Gauteng and she is a lawyer, very experienced and she is going to take over from me now. Can you har me?

Ms Y SOOKA: Hello Wandile, I greet you. Can you hear me?

WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you clearly.

Ms Y SOOKA: When you tell us your story about when you join the UDF, how old were you? Why you joined? What actually happened to you on that particular day? If you will just start and tell us your story.

WITNESS: On 13 April 1995, I was twenty-one years old then. What happened then was, there was a time when I was a member of UDF. We were going up and down the streets trying to announce meetings. We could not jump anyone. We were supposed to go through each and every house. When we got a certain house, and when I was getting out of the house entering the street now, and we were going. I felt that I was bumping into one of the people I was walking with. When I tried to look only to find out I was facing the bullets, then I fell. That was the last time I had my sight. I do not know who picked me up then. I woke up on the 16th, on a Tuesday, the following week. I was in the hospital. As weeks went by, when I was getting treatment in the hospital, my sister came to visit me. While I was lying down on the bed in the hospital somebody shook me and said, "we are here to fetch you." Then I got up. I could hear the policemen talking to the nurses and the doctors. I did not know who these policemen were, but because of the mercy of the Lord, when I was on the way to the Special Branch police van, my sister was following me. She said to one of the police, "So and so, here is money. Please go and buy cigarettes for me." That is how I got the name. When I got to the Charge Office at Addo, the made me make a statement. They put me into another place which I do not know. It was on the ground. One of these people made me stand up. I asked them, "Where are you taking me?", and he said you will see when we get there. We then left. I could feel that they were now opening a door. He said to me, "We are now arresting you." Then they arrested me, they locked me up. While I was still locked up, I shouted but I realised I was the only one. When I reached the floor it was wet. I thought now what I was going to do now. I crawled trying to find a safe place for me to sit. While I was still crawling I bumped a bucket and I fell. You can imagine the smell inside. Then I found a place where I could just lie down. In a while I heard somebody opening a door and a crew of people came in who were arresteda s well. That is how I got help when these people got into the same room as I was.

The following morning somebody came to open. They said, "We want a police." Then I was taken. They left with me to some place. They did not go inside wityh me at the Charge Office. They only went inside and then they came back to me. The squad left with me. I was at the back only to find out that I was coming to the Royal here in Port Elizabeth. I went into the Royal. They did not say anything to me on that day of my arrival. I was given a bed and that is where I stayed. The following day I was called. This man took me away. He left me at a certain place which I do not know. I stood there for a long time. After a long time I heard white men talking to themselves. I heard on saying to me, "Appolis, listen very carefully here. There is a list that is going to be called out." They said to me, "Do you know these people?" I said, "No, I do not know these people." They said, "You do not even know a single one?" I said, "No, I do not." They said, "You are going to tell us the truth." They took me and put me on a chair. One of them handcuffed me behind my back. One pulled my head back and then I had to face up. They inserted something that I do not even know now in my head, something that was very tight in my eyes. It really pressed my eyes. Tehn I felt very dizzy and then I fell. That time I was bleeding though my nose.

After a long time I felt something piercing through my finger nails. I was put on the chair again and they said, "You still say you do not know these people?" I said, "No, I do not know these people." I said to them, "Please, I prefer to die compared to what you are doing to me now." They removed me from this spot.

They put me at another spot that I do not know as well. I sat there for a long time again. While I was sitting there, other people arrived as well only to find out that there was where I was going to sleep. I stayed there for a long time again. The following morning I met my brother just by luck. My brother said, "We have been looking for you a long time. We heard you died." I asked, "How did you come here?" He said that he was arrested when they were waiting for certain victims. That was it. Then we parted.

Then on Wednesday when we were from the Magistrate, the Magistrate set me free and aid I must come back on a certain date. I went there four times. On the fourth time, they said there is no case. I must just go back. I am not guilty. I had a representative, a lawyer. I tried to contact my lawyer. He also told me that there is no case and he has got nothing to with the case. That was the end of it.

Ms Y SOOKA: Few questions, so that I can just get it clear on record. You said that after they shot you and you went to hospital. The last thing yu remember taht was the last time you could see. So when you were in prson, can you remember how long you were held there before you were released?

WITNESS: I stayed for two weeks at Royal.

Ms Y SOOKA: Did you ever bring any case against the Minister of Police for the damaged to your eyes by the shooting of you by the policemen?

WITNESS: Yes, I did charge the people. But it never really got it anywhere.

Ms Y SOOKA: Could you tell us all the time that you had to go to hospital for treatment on your eyes? Who paid for that?

WITNESS: You mean somebody paying for the expenses?

Ms Y SOOKA: Yes, did anybody [Inaudible...] THE MICROPHONE WAS OFF.

WITNESS: No, I would not say. I would not know anything about that.

Ms Y SOOKA: ... need antoher operation. Can you tell us a little more about that please?

WITNESS: I would appreciate it if the Commission can have me to have another operation so that they can take out the pellets that are inside my eyes. The treatment that I got at Roayal it was very very bad. These pellets are still inside. My head is still full of these pellets. It is very difficult for me to sleep. I still sleep on one side only.

Ms Y SOOKA: ... told us that at the time when you were shot you had of becooming a musician. But your blindness has put an end to that. Could you tell us, you have told the Commission that you want the Commission to do something about music in the township. Could you tell us more about your dreams, please?

WITNESS: I have a lot of talent. I am a keyboard player. But now after this incident when I lost my eyesight I could not do anything else agian. I tried to form a gospel group formed by some youth. That is the youth now that I am still singing with at home. So I thought I am going to ask the Commission to please get me an instrument, full instrument so that it can help me and the group I am still practicing music with.

Ms Y SOOKA: How do you support yourself at this point in time?

WITNESS: Right now I am on pension but that pension does not cover all my expenses. I depend entirely on my mother. I do not even wish to go to the street and beg from people. I decided no, I must come to the Commission, cry to the Commission, see if it can please give me some money. I do not want to burden anyone. If I can just get some amount of money from the Commission to help me out.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Borraine?

Mr A BORRAINE: Thank you, very much, Wandile, for telling us what happened to you. You know, we in the Commission talk sometimes about victims and sometimes we talk about survivors. You are the survivor. You have been able to overcome something which I think many of us would have given up on. I hope you will not giv eup on your dreams. There are other musicians you will know their names, who are also bling and they became very famous. So keep it up. I just want to ask a little bit more about the time when you were shot. You and the group of young people were going from house to house preparing for a mass meeting. A constable in the Police Force opened fire and shot you and many ohthers. According to the statement you gave us two of your colleagues were killed. One lost an eye others may have been injured and you yourself were blinded. Ms Sooka asked you whether you had a court case. Can you remember, weas there any court case concerning the two young people who were killed and the others of you who were so badly hurt? Was the constable ever taken to court?

WITNESS: As I am speaking to you here now, he is working. He was a policeman then, now he is a detective.

Mr A BORRAINE: Do you know of any court case where he was charged for killing people?

WITNESS: You mean him?

Mr A BORRAINE:MICROPHONE WAS OFF.

WITNESS: I heard a lot about hime that he hs been charged by a lot of people because he did a lot of ugly things to people.

Mr A BORRAINE: Did you say that he is still now a detective?

WITNESS: Yes, he is still working even today.

Mr A BORRAINE: We will try and follow that up. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions? Dr Borraine says, do not lose hope because look at Stevie Wonde, look at Ray Charles. I would like to say to you, what I am interested in, what you have just said, is that when you talk about your hurt? You tried to think for other people as well. In your request you said, "the Truth Commission should help you to get musical instrument, not just for yourself but for the youth also so that you can go on with this gropup to continue to practice your music". These are the things that make South Africa to be a successful country. It is because of people like you. People who are still struggling, people while they are crying, crying painfully but still thinking for other people. We thank you for your great humanity. I wish everybody here is listening. They should know that in the end this new South Africa is going to be successful. Because we as the citizens of South Africa, are the people who are going to help each other. People should not be selfish. People should think that something that I am doing now how helpful it will be for the next person. We thank God for people like you. Thank you. People, I am sure that people like Mr Appollis. Even the people who are here, people who are like him. Please, [Inaudible...] for him and thank God for people like him.

Mr A BORRAINE: Chairperson, the next witness we call is Bhekapi Gladys Maqolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

Mr A BORRAINE: Ms Maqolo, will you please make sure that he headphones are answered? Ms Maqolo, can you hear me? Ms Maqolo, can I ask you? Can you hear me?

WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you.

Mr A BORRAINE: Thank you, very much. I have been watching you sitting waiting your turn and you have waited a very long time and you have been very patient. You have a very sad story to tell the Commission. We are very thankful to you for coming. You are most welcome. I think that the person next to you is Mbuyseli, your son. Is that right?

WITNESS: Yes, he is my son.

Mr A BORRAINE: We are very glad to welcome him also, he has got a long word. You are going to tell us in the moment what has happened to him and to you and your family.

Ms BHEKAPI GLADYS MAQOLO D.S.S.

Mr A BORRAINE: Thank you, very much indeed. You are going to tell you story to the Commission and to try and assist you to do that, Ntsiki Sandi, who is sitting on my left hand side. He is going to take over from me. Please, in your words just tell the story of what happened to you. Thank you.

Mr N SANDI: Thank you, Ms Maqolo. By the way, Ms Maqolo, you said you live here in Port Elizabeth?

WITNESS: Yes, I live here in Port Elizabeth.

Mr N SANDI: Are you here to talk about your son, the one next to you? Mbuyiseli?

WITNESS: Yes.

Mr N SANDI: You said you have three sons, this one is one of them?

WITNESS: Yes.

Mr N SANDI: When you gave us your statement, you said you will talk on behalf of him because he cannot express himself well. Is that so?

WITNESS: Yes, that is so. You woul dnot be able to hear him. Even in my case sometimes I cannot even hear him properly becasue...

Mr N SANDI: Are you going to elaborate on your story?

WITNESS: In short the story goes. Mbuyiseli went to the Police Station.

Mr N SANDI: Could you start there and go on, Ms Maqolo?

WITNESS: On this day, Mbuyiseli has been robbed by certain people. After being robged he went to the Police Station. When he got there he said he could identify the person who robbed them and the detectives went to fetch the person. When they brought the person to the Police Station, this person said, "Please, I want to bring back the watch and a pair of shoes and maybe some money. I cannot remember the amount. I want to bring all these back to him. My word is, "He mus tgo back to that detective and they must file something saying that this person wants to bring back all these things that he had robbed." They went back to that detective and that wa the last time I saw Mbuyseli. That day it was on a Monday. Then on Tuesday even on Monday, we started looking for him. Even on Tuesday, we tried looking for him. We could not find him. Then on Wednesday, a certain lady in a car arrive. She was a social worker. She said she has been called by the Central Park. They told her that Mbuyiseli is very sick, he is in hospital. I sent somebody, one of my grandchildren who was a student at that time. That is the one who is taking care of him now. I sent him to go to the Central Park. She got a private to go and see him in the hospital. When I got to the hospital, I saw him lying on his back. He was tied up, his hands and feet were tied. He had a bandage from here to the.... His eyes were twised as you could see that they are as we speak. He had a cerain cry. He sounded like a jackal. But you could see that it is somebody who is very much in pain. While I was still standing there looking at him, it was around 08h00 at that time. One of the nurses approached me, you could see that he was trying to still what he was doing. He wasnot allowed to come to me. He said to me here is the doctor, he is coming. Ask him. So when the doctor arrived I asked, "What happened to him?" He said to me, "I was going to ask the same thing to you, why is he like this?" I said, "I do not know. The only thing that I know is that he was on his way to report the people who had robbed him. I do not know why is he here. This man siad to me, he has been injured in his head. So I asked, "who did this to him?" This man said to me, "He has been injured in his head". So I asked, "Who did this to him". Then he said, "He probably was fighting with other prisoners at St Albans." Then I could not do anything when the doctor said that. Then I went home because there was nothing that my son could say. The only thing he could do was to scream. Then I just left. I went home. When I got there...

Mr N SANDI: So when you got there you told them the story, they did not know anything?

WITNESS: Yes, I told them what happened in the hospital.

Mr N SANDI: When you got into the hospital, was there anybody else who was with him besides the doctors and the nurses?

WITNESS: There was a policeman. But I did not get a chance to speak to this policeman becuase I was about to ask the policeman when this doctor arrived. Then the sister came to me and then told me this is the doctor. But at home I woke up in the morning and I told them what happened. His brothers and sisters went to him in the hospital. They said they also cannot do anything with him because he cannot speak. He was tied even at that time. Again in the morning I went. When I went there on the third day I was still with him. I was with other two women, we said a short prayer. One of the hospital security came to us. He said to us, what are we doing with this man because this man is a prisoner.

I said to him, I do have a permit to come to St Albans. He smashed the permit and he left with it and then he said we must leave the hospital, then we left. When I got home, my youngest son was also wanted by the police. He was not at home at that time. But fortunately Afrika arrived while I was at hom and told him what had happened. When I went to Majodini, he said "Yes, Mama, we are going to go there on Saturday." On Saturday we went to the hospital. My son was still like that and he did not even know where he was. Majodini took a statement from the police. I did not even know what he was asking this police. During that time one of the securities, same security, came back.

Majodini asked, "Is it not the same man who smashed the permit from you?" Then Majodini asked, "Why did you smash the permit from this woman?" This man said, "No, we are supposed to keep the permits." Then he took back the permit and gave it back tome on that Saturday, then we went home. I did not go back on Sunday. Then on Monday I woke up and went back to the hospital. When I got to the hospital he was not in his bed. After we discovered that he was not in his bed I looked for him in the whole hospital. I asked the same sister, "Where is the person who was lying here?" When she looked at the chart she said, "No, this person has been discharged." Then she said, "Maybe you have missed him on the way, he has gone home immediately." I took a bus and went home.

When I got home he was not there either. Then I called the hospital and told this sister that no, but this man is not at home. Obviously he has not come home yet. When the sister was telling me that she is still going to look for him, police van arrived at home. I cannot remember how many policemen were there in this van. One of the black policemne came in and said to me, "Is Max Maqolo your son?" He asked, "Are you Gladys Maqolo?" I said, and then he said "I am sent by St Albans. I am here to tell you that Max is very ill, he is still at St Albans. So get the use of a transport and go and get him from the hospital. Is aid to this policeman "when prisoners are sick in hospital, are they taken home, now why are you taking him home, that is not procedure?" This policeman said, "No, but it is your mercy not everybody gets that kind of mercy."

I said to him, please tell this government taht I say that mercy taht he wanted to give me so that he can go at the same government that is giving me this mercy, I did not want that mercy. Becaue I want my child as he was, I do not want that mercy. He must give that mercy to those people who need it. I do not need it. I want my child as he was. I said, "sorry, what is your name?" Then he said, "Why do you want to know my name?" I said, but you asked my name so I also want to ask you name. I want to know who you are. Then he said his name is Segeant Makeleni, then he left. Then I called the hospital again and talked to this sister at 4A. She said, "Mama, do not worry. Relax." I said to her I am going to tell the doctor he has been discharged. These people had stolen him. The procedure says if he is still ill he is supposed to stay in the hospital. He is not supposed to come back to you.

I waited for a long time until the sister should call me back. AFter a long time I saw many vehicles of the police standing in front of my yard. He got out of that, he was just like a piece of rag. He could not clean himself. He could not even eat. I had to feed him because he could not do it himself. Even if he goes to the toilet, I had to pick him up. When they put him into the room, he could not walk. They had him in their arms. I said to him, "What about the hospital? Why do you bring him here when he is still so sick?" They said, "No Mama, his prison term is over, he is now your problem. If you want to take him to the hospital, you do that. It is not our probelm anymore, he is not our burden anymore. This is now your duty. If you want to take him to the hospital, he is yours." Then I called the hospital again. This sister said that, "They were told to bring him here, I do not know why they brought him to you." Now I am making a mistake, they first started... they brought him to the hospital before they brought him to me. I am sorry for this mistake because it has been a very long time since this happend. The sister said to me when I called her, here is Mbuiseli next to me, Mbusyiseli is still in the same condition. When they brought him back again the second time to me, taht is the time now I called back at the hospital saying that are they here, are they bringing him back to me again and he is still in the same condition. In the evening when they brought hi mto me again they said to me, no, but his prison time is over. That was somethinng to six in the evening. They said to me, we are here to take Mbuyiseli again from yuou. I said, did you not say now his prison term is over? They said, no, we made a mistake. His prison term is not over yet, his date has not arrived yet.

Then we argued about thisk. When they came back again, Afrika was now in the house. I could see that these people who came here did not know who Afrika was, saying that Afrika was wanted by the police. He said, "No, Mama, allow them to take him back to the hospital." So I thought let me not argue more about this just in case they take Afrika as well. When I went into this room with this police then he had started to raw down at his cheek, when he looked at his eyes. He has just raw down his cheek. They took him away that particular night. We slept, then on the followng day while I was still sitting at home, they brought him again.

Mr N SANDI: On this occassion was it now the following day?

WITNESS: Yes. They said to me, yes, now his prison term is really over. We are now bringing him back for good. We woul dnot take him back again. This time he was being helped but just say he is a very young man. His head was hanging just like he was holding a dead thing. He said, "Mama, here he is. Mama, I want to tell you that my hands are clean in this case but here is your son." When I got there his clothes were in a [Inaudible...] bag. He was still in a check pyjamas. When I took out these clothes, his jsean was very clean. It looks liek it has been washed and ironed. There was not underpants and his T-shirt was still very clean, exactly the way that it was before he left hom. My question is why... INFORMATION LOST THROUGH CHANGING OF CASSETTES. ... They said they do not know anything, So I decided to just stay with my son.

Mr N SANDI: Ms Maqolo, when you asked him, is there anything that he gave you? Any explanation or about what happened to him?

WITNESS: Now, as you see him he can speak better than he was before. WE could not even understand him. You would think that his throat has been tied up. I do not know now what is going on. Youw ill fin out every now and then... You will find out that he can think of something that happened a long time ago. I remember we were listening to the news on the radio. They were talking about the case of the policemen who were bombed in Motherwell. My Faku's name was mentioned. He was also listing and he jumped when he heard Faku's name. So I asked, "How do you know Faku?" He said, "Faku was there when I was beaten up." Then after that he was just lost again but he did mention taht Faku was on of those people who did it to him.

Mr N SANDI: Ms Maqolo, we are in a certain problem now here because the person who is a victim here cannot tell us exactly what happened. In your view, as you know him as a son, you know all his movemnets. What makes you think he was arrested? What do you think happened for him to be arrested?

WITNESS: Sir, he was just an ordinary trade union member but because that whole household was wanted by police. His police was a member of the ANC and his brother was a member of the UDF. These boys was used to say that house ws a Communist house.

Mr N SANDI: You were told that your house was a Communist house?

WITNESS: Yes. One of these boys used to say to each other, do you know that their father is an ANC member and the son is a UDF member? So this house is a Communist house. Yess, their father was a ANC member, a very strong ANC member. As a result I could not name a boy at home. The first one is Hitler, he is Russia and he is followed by Afrika and after that is Stalin. Those are the names that were named by their father.

Mr N SANDI: Is the last one Stalin?

WITNESS: Yes, that is what I am trying to say. I was jsut an ordinary member. I was the only one who was not a strong politicia, I would say. When the policemen arrived, they knew all this information. Then they called it the Communist house. Unfortunately, he cannot give us this report.

Mr N SANDI: Is there any treatment that he is getting from the hospital?

WITNESS: He is taking treatment from St Albans. Even his surname in the hospital, he does not have my address. The doctor who is treating, I do not believe him as a doctor. I have never seen him. The only time I saw him was that very mornign when I saw him.

Mr N SANDI: As we speak to you right now, is there a treatment that he is getting?

WITNESS: That is where I am coming now, sir. He has been receiving treatment from the hospital. Then after a while they told me that he will never recover. There is nothing else taht they can do unless we see aything else that comes out from him. He has been just damaged now. I went to the doctor, the Black Sash took me there. This doctor is in Rank Street. That doctor examined him. I think that is the doctor who actually examined him properly. At that time, if he had to speak something to you, he had to hold one of his eyes. While he was banged against the wall, some of the veins of the eyes got damaged. This is now how he is getting his double vision when he looks at somebody.

Mr N SANDI: The details of his illness, where can the Commission get all those details?

WITNESS: I have tried to get the details also from the hospital because I knew that the Commission would want documentation from the hospital. They examined his eye and they gave him some eye drops but then I was told taht I am not going to get any doctor certificate.

Mr N SANDI: When you conclude, Ms Maqolo, after that I would hand over to the Chairperson. You are here to the Commission, what is your request to the Commission?

WITNESS: The reason why I am here, sir, I want to continue with this case. I have tried by all means, now even the lawyers that I have asked, there is nothing that they can do for me. I would like to find out, is there anyone else who knows anything about the condition of my son except the person who did this to him. Because now, as he is at the moment, he cannot get any wife, he cannot even get a house. He cannot even wash himsef, I have to help him. I would really like it if the Commission can please get me that particular person who knows. His brothers used to say that he is a "sissie" becasue he is quiet. He is not a rowdy person. I do not know happened to him now. I do not know who did this to him.

Mr N SANDI: I am sure now the Chairperson who is sitting here next to me has listened to your request, that there must be an investigation as to the inquiry of your son. I am going to hand over now to the Chairperson. Thank you, Mama.

WITNESS: Thank you.

Mr N SANDI: Anyone else with a question? Dr Borraine?

Mr A BORRAINE: Quite quick because you must be very tired, but we need the earphones again. Can you hear me alright?

WITNESS: Yes.

Mr A BORRAINE: Good. First of all, and I want you to listen very carefully, what was the state of your son's health before he was arrested or before he was in jail. What was the condition of his health?

WITNESS: He was healthy. He was a very good person, he was very healthy. That is why I am saying the person who did this to him, I know that my son did not do anything to that person.

Mr A BORRAINE: The secon question is, can you remember the name of the doctor that first saw your son in hospital, when you saw him lying there and teh sister said, here is the doctor. Can you remember his name?

WITNESS: No, I would not be able to because there is something that I found out when I was on my way out of the hospital. He did not write his name on the chart. I remember on one occassion I asked them to plase take me to a certain place. I was taken into this building. He asked a certain doctor to sign for him. That doctor, when he looked at the file, I heard him talking to a sister in Afrikaans. "They are not goin gto put this nonsense on my file", but I did not understand Afrikaans. Then the doctor said "You must go and get a Panado." I said to this sister "No, sister, what is this nonsense that he is talking about? What nonsense is he talking about?" He said something about nonsense before he threw the file. The sister said, "No, if I can just say something to you, there is no doctor written in this file. Nobody wants to sign his name in this file." So I do not think thename of that doctor is in that file. This is why I do not know him today. When he was going itnto the hospital, any doctor was seeing him. He did not have his own doctor.

Mr A BORRAINE: Just one last question. Was your son ever charged by the police? Did he ever go to court? Was there a case against him or was he detained?

WITNESS: No, I have no ledger of that but I did ask them. I asked one of the policemen, especially that one that was guarding him. He said my son gave cigarettes to some of the prisoners and that was his offence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama, I do not know what to say now except taht we are proud of people like you because as we are listening to your story. You look like a person who should have said to these people, the police, somebody who was supposed to be afraid but your ourage and your bravery, we applaud it. That is what I had said jsut before that. There was no way the Apartheid could succeed when there are people like you in this country. That is why now we have defeated all those people who did not want us to be free. We thank the Lord for people like you. We feel your pain with you. We can see what kind of pain your son is in. It is something that we cannot change. We will try by all means to investigate what happens until we get the truth. We will find out what happened and why this happened, but Mama, you are wonderful. I said once that I am proud that I am African and Black. Thank you, Mama.

WITNESS: Before I step down Reverend, if I do not say this, it will be like I did not say anything. I want to give the Black Sash a big thank you for their role during the illness of my son. Their role has been a big role. The Black Sash took me to the doctors. At that time it was very difficult to do anything. You would even be afraid of your neighbours becuase they would tell what you are doing, all your movements. At that time we were not even loved by our community but the Black Sash took time and they fetched my son and took him to doctors. I thank the whole of South Africa. Thank you. May God bless all of you.

APPLAUSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mama. Thank you. Order please. Thannk you. Those who want to lelave, please do so quickly. We are not going for tea anymore because we are going to conclude now. We are going to try and finish with those who are left quickly. Those who want to leave, please do so quickly. There are only two left. Those who did not leave will not be able to do so anymore. Order. Thank you very much.

Mr A BORRAINE: Chairperosn, before I call the next witness, could I just say a special word of thanks to the translators. They have had a long day and they really need a bread but because we want to try and finsih so that people who need to get busses or need to go home, we are not going to have a break. We are very grateful to them. I hope they will translate that for themselves. Chairperson, we call now Nokuzola Caroline Folani. Ms Folani, you are very very welcome. Do you need the earphones, please? Thank you very much. Ms Folani, I must thank you too. You also had a very long wait and we are grateful to you for your patience and we are thankful to you for coming to the Commission. YOu have a very sad story to tell about the murder of your husband. In a moment I am going to ask Mr Finca to lead you in telling that story. But please, could we first take the oath? If you will stand please.

Ms NOKUZOLA CAROLINE FOLANI D.S.S.

Mr A BORRAINE: Again I say you are most welcome and we are now waiting to hear your story. I will hand you over to my colleague, thank you.

Rev B FINCA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mama Folani, as you understand that nobody buys anyone here. People just come in here and go back to their seats. I want to understand that is the reason why you are here, the death of your husband. Could you please explain to the Commission shortly how you lived with your husband before this incident? How you were relating?

WITNESS: We used to stay at Kwa-zakhele at Magaleni. We used to live in peace and I had two children from him. One was with us and the other one was in Grahamstown. At that time I was pregnant with the third one.

Rev B FINCA: How did you relate with your neighbours? Were you in good terms with your neighbours or were there any trouble? Just in your neighbourhood.

WITNESS: No, we were all living in peace. We are happy.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

Rev B FINCA: You were saying, Mama? As you were telling us, Ms Folani, the way you used to live with your neighbours. What do you think caused all these things that led your husband to be killed?

WITNESS: He was a policeman. that was the time when policemen were not wanted at all. That was in 1985. On 28 April 1985, it was on a Sunday afternoon. I was just resting in the afternoon. He used to like reading andn he was wearing a tracksuit, just resting on a blanket. Around 19h00 or 20h00 in the evening I just heard people going into the room. They started shooting when he was tryin gto run for his firearm. They got him before he did that, then they shot him in his leg. Then I was shocked. I woke up and I fell when I woke up.

They dragged me out. There were two cars and there were too many people outside. I do not know how they got here. He was put into a boot and I was put into a Golf. I did not know where they were going, only to find out they were going into a certain place called Soweto here in Port Elizabeth. He was in another car and I was in anotehr car. On the way we were been beaten up. They were asking me "What are you doing with a police?" At that time I was being beaten up, there was another lady in the car. They told me that if you stand in front of a wheel, the wheel will go over you. I did not understand at that time what that meant.

We went into a big house at Soweto. My husband was already there. I found out that place was full of people. The car that I was in, stopped in front of this house. The question that I heard tha tthey were asking from inside. They sai dto him "Do you remember some of the people that you were arrested with?" and then he said yes, he remembered all that and he is asking for forgiveness for all those things. They took him out of the house. They had black plastics and 5 litres of petrol and some tyres. I was offered taking him out of the car. Then I was made to watch him. I was made to look at him for the last time.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

Rev B FINCA: Mama Folani, take your time. If you wnat to take a little break, the Commission will give you that. Do not rush yourself. WITNESS: During all this time, I had only a nightdress on. I was told to stand outside and look as this dog was dying now. Then I asked them to burn him with me bbecause I could not endure to listen to his cries. They said the petrol that they had was only for him. They were going to burn me up tommorrow. They made him drink petrol and he was also crying that he must be burnt with me. That is how they did it. They burnt him right in front of me until he died. They left with me. They were looking for petrol because they aslo now wanted to burn me out as well. They went to Kwa-zekhele, to Njoli, to Daku. At that time you use to get petrol from the houses. We went to another shop called Makhaya at Jonson raod. There they knocked, threw stones on the roof of the house. They were looking for petrol and then the man said "No, I do not have petrol but here is money if you want to buy petrol. Here is money." It was at night. He used to say "No, I could not even draw petrol from my car tank."

At that time it was already during dawn. Currently now the nesws has spread taht I have been taken by the police and my husband has also been taken by the police. I was taken to a place called a base but apparently there was no chance for me to be burnt at that particular time becaue these policemen were still going around. Some people were againnst my being necklaced. Some said no, I must be necklaced bcause I watched my husban being necklaced. But now those who said no, do not burn her up. One, because they said I am pregnant. That is how I survived.

When I realized now that I was not going to be necklaced, I asked them to be taken home. It was already during the day. They said they were all going to take me home and I must not tell anyone aboutr what happened. They were going to keep me to maek sure that I am not going to say anything. I am going to be a part of them. Then I promised taht I am going to do exactly that. So I left with them. I wnet to where I stayed. When I got there, my clothes and my goods in the house have already been taken by my brothers and sisters. My stepmother asked "What happened, Nokuzola?" I was told to shut up, not to say anything. If I say anything, I was going to be killed. So I said "No, let me jsut go back to these people."

I washed and I put on my clothes and then I went back with these people to where we were. People were very afraid. They could not even ask what was happening to me. The neighbours were standing outside, watching, but they wer every scared to ask any questions. When people got to Soweto, they said, "No, we saw what happened to Nokuzola, but it was even difficult for Nokuzola to say anyting." Then I asked them "I want to go back to work." I was working at Mentone at that time. Then they said "Go to work, we are going to fetch you from work. What are you going to say when people are asking you about your husband?" Then I said I am going to talk aobut people that I do not even know. At that timee it was during the day.

When I went to Mentone, my supervisor asked, "Caroline, where are you from? We have already heard that your husband has been necklaced, but where have you been?" So I told them what happened. I said I have been taken by certain people who have ddropped me here at the gate but I do not have anywhere else to go. They told me even if I can go to Cape Town, wherever I can go, they will find me and when I say anyting, they are going to kill me. So the police came and I made a statement. They told me if this car comes back again I must just get inot it. So I did that. When it was time for me to knock off, these people did not come back to fetch me. I am sure they were afraid of teh helicopters that were flying over us.

I found a place to sleep at Algoa Pass. There was another policeman called Steve Ntuza. When he realized that I was pregnant, he said I must go back to my house and stya there with Mr Ntuza. One of Aubrey Jacobs's friend who was called Grootboom. They said "No, but this woman is due to give birth at the time. She must come and live with us." Well, I stayed with them until I gave birth. My father came to me and he asked me to come back. Now it is 1986. He must go back and live at home. Things now have calmed dowdn, there are aslo committees. I must go back. My mother was not even living with my father at that time. He took my child and he stayed with my child.

I used to attend church quite a lot and I was a member of the guild in our church. I would be in and out of consultations. Still in 1986 we had a church convention in Uiitenhage. When I cam eback at night, my father said "Nokuzola, this is getting dangerous. I am scared of this now. This is really getting dangerous. I am telling you, if Uitenhage was right next door, people would have gone to Uitenhage and fetched you because there are people who said you must be killed. You must not go to court because you saw what happened".

While I was still taking my clothes off, there was a knock. My father said "Go into the room and stay there, hide there, it must be them at the door". So I hid. I heard them saying "Is she not back", and he said "No". Some said "Let us wait for her". One of them said, "No, there are so many places we have to go". One of them said "She must be killed becuase she saw what happened to Jacobs. So we have to kill her, we do not want to keep her. We have to kill her". My father said, "When she comes in I am just going to tell her not to go to court". Then they said "If you do not tell her, we are going to shoot her in that court". At night I escaped. I went to Ngqikana. I stayed there until the morning. My father came in at 03h00 am, saying that I must run away. I must go to the police because these people keep coming back to him. I could not even wear my shoes becuase the steps that I was making felt like they were steps made by somebody following me. My feet were very hot and I was very afraid.

Rev B FINCA: Ms Folani, I am going to disturb you there just for a while. It is very clear in the statement in front of us. The question that I want to ask you is, these people that you are talking about who were in a Kombi, those who said they want to kill you, how many were they?

WITNESS: I did not see them with my naked eye. I was hiding in the room, so I could not see them.

Rev B FINCA: So you do not know their names either?

WITNESS: No, I do not know their names. While I was kept in the base, there were names like Mzimba Tatise. Some of those people are here in this hall. I saw one of them. Well, when the exiles were coming back, they also came back. During the struggle they went outside the country. I saw soem of them in this particular hall as we speak.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

Rev B FINCA: So while you were hiding behind the baby's cot, you heard some of these men saying to your father they were sent by their lawyers, Mr Pillay and Mr Tshabalala, to come and kill you. Did you believe what these men said when they said they were being sent by laywers to come and kill you?

WITNESS: No, I was not sure about that.

Rev B FINCA: My last question, Ms Fulani, is that we would like to continue now from your story. Were there any people arrested for this incident?

WITNESS: Yes, they were all arrested. Some brought themselves forward. Most of the time they brought themselves forward. They would say "No, I am happy. There is a certain cry that I hear in my mind of Jacobs".

Rev B FINCA: So what was the verdict? Were they sentenced to years?

WITNESS: I do not know how many years they were sentenced to but now they were all released during the time when everybody else was released from prison.

Rev B FINCA: Lastly, Ms Fulani, you told your story to the Commission, is there anything that you would prefer the Commission to do to make a follow-up on your story or you just wanted to tell the story to the Commission so that it can just know it?

WITNESS: I would like the Commission to take care of me and my children because from the salary that I get, I cannot fulfill all the things that I would like to do for them because it is too little. When things get really difficult, I think that if Jacobs was alive, I would not be in such difficulty.

Rev B FINCA: Thank you very much, Ms Fulani, for your story.

WITNESS: But the people who burnt my husband, I have forgiven them. Only God will do something to them. But their day is coming. I have forgiven them.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

Rev B FINCA: Thank you, Chairperson. Your pain is our pain as well and I am sure that the Commission is going to try by all means to help you as much as it can. I do not know if you were here already. Ms Kinikini gave her statement. He said there was a Presidential Trust that President, not this one. It looks like victims were being paid from that trust, people who were victims of the struggle at that time. I just want to find out now, if we can investigate on how we can help you, we want to know from the statement that you have given us, is their anything that the government has done for you or the government did not do anything for you to help you out. Is there any amount of money that you received from the government since your husband was working for the government and he died as a policeman and he died because he was a policeman of the then government?

WITNESS: I did not receive a cent, sir.

Rev B FINCA: I want to make sure of this, Sissie. You did not receive a cent from the government?

WITNESS: No, I did not receive a cent from the government.

Rev B FINCA: Thank you, Sissie.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Nokuzola, I just want to comment about your pain. IT is very difficult. We cannot weigh any pain. We cannot say somebody's pain is better than somebody else's pain. When somebody feels that pain, we know that it affects all of us. But what I have noticed in what you were telling us is that if somebody is in this kind of pain, then it looks like no one wants to sympathize with you. People are afraid that they will also be necklaced. People are afraid that they will also be called informers, just like there were you who became a victim and your husband.

Perhaps what is positive out of this is that there are people who came to you who ask for forgiveness, saying that they can still hear your husband's cries in their heads. They could not rest because they could still hear your husband's cries during his death. We appreciate the fact that you have forgiven those people.

WITNESS: They did not bring themselves to me. they brought themselves forward to the police saying that now they are still being haunted by these cries.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mama. Thank you very much. I have already said that during the struggle these things used to happen on all sides. Please accept our sympathies. We are going to try and see if we could fulfill your request. thank you, very much. We would now like to call the last witness.

Dr A BORAINE: Chairperson, the last witness for today's hearing is Mr Gungqile Mpanda. You are very welcome. Could you please put the earphones on, Mr Mpanda please. Is it coming through alright?

TAPE 5 BEGINS

INTERPRETER: Yes, I can hear clearly.

Dr A BORAINE: Could you please tell us who the lady is sitting next to you?

WITNESS: She is my wife.

Dr A BORAINE: Thank you for coming with him. It is very difficult for both of you, especially for you, Mr Mpanda. But then your wife has to live with you which is also difficult, I ma sure like the rest of us. Mr Mpanda, you are going to talk, not about a family member, but about yourself. Of the struggle that you went through , how you were violated or tortured and the attempted murder on your life. I will have to ask you firs t if you will please stand for the taking of the oath.

Mr GUNGQILE EBSON MPANDA D.S.S

Dr A BORAINE: Thank you very much. Mr Mpanda, if I can just say, it will help us quite a lot if you will speak to us when you tell your story so that everybody in this very crowded hall can help you. In order to assist you, my colleague sitting next to me, Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza is going to help you to tell that story. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr D NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Dr Boraine. I would like you to tell the story in your words. As we are now approaching the end of the day I would not want you to have any problem and complain saying that "No, I have been around. I was not given enough chance to say my story". I am going to lead you so that you can be on the right track. I am going to lead you here and there, try to put you on the right track. Is that right?

WITNESS: Yes.

Mr D NTSEBEZA: Could you please tell us who is Gungqile, where he was born, where he grew up, what is his plain name. Are you married etcetera. Up to when you started with this politics.

WITNESS: I am Gungqile, I was born at Ndikedeni in Uitenhage. I am married, I have six children.

Mr D NTSEBEZA: Now let us start with the struggle. Could you please raise your voice?

WITNESS: It was during the 80's. We were involved with the Civics. There was a Service Staff Community which was responsible for the people who were not employed at that time. We used to collect food from certain wholesalers for those people who were unemployed. We stocked with this until it was 1985. I was the one responsible for it especially. It was during that time that I was interrogated by the police. I ma just going to say this in segments. In 1984, on 1 December, my Kombi was burnt down which I used to transport the Comrades. It was in the morning. They put a tyre in the engine of my Kombi which I had only for four months.

Mr D NTSEBEZA: Sorry, sir. Do you know the people who burnt your Kombi and why they burnt it?

WITNESS: The person who we held there, he told us that he was sent by Silumko, Silumko of Kinikini. the police arrested him. He was in my house. The police arrested, he said "No, this man looks like he is not really well in is head". I said, "No, I am not a doctor, that is not my business".

Mr D NTSEBEZA: Let us go back to 1985. As you said between 1985 and 1987, that is the time people were arrested quite a lot tortured and beaten up. You were one of those victims that were assaulted. Please tell us, from May 1985, tell us what happened.

WITNESS: On 4 May 1985, there was a funeral of Mr Magobiyane who was a member of UDF. There was a conflict between Cosatu and UDF. I was not in that funeral, I was at home. At midnight on Saturday, meaning now on 5 May, boere came to collect us in our houses. It was around 15h00 or 16h00. We were put in security offices in Uitenhage. At that time, all those people were from Port Elizabeth, not from Uitenhage. There were three rooms in the place. In the first room there were just black policemen. People like Tungata and Macici. I did not get a chance when i got there. I was just beaten up until I fell on the ground. They burnt my beard with matches.

While I was still on the ground, I was still lying on the floor, Nieuwoudt came in. He did not say anything. He just showed me with his finger to come to him. So I stood up. We went into this second room. That room had only boere. when I got there, there were two chairs. One boer sitting on the other chair and there was an empty chair in front of him. I sat on that chair. He said to me, "A kaffir cannot sit in a chair". So I stood up. I was told to put my hands into my pocket, so I did. I was told to sit in front of him, in front of this boer that is sitting on this chair. I was told to put my feet on my knees. One of them had his feet on my shoulders. He held me with the collars of my shirt. He asked me about the top ten. I think that top ten was a group of people who wanted to replace Youth Co. But we had a big problem with the Chairperson of that Youth Co. Those people now wondered who those top ten were. As he was asking me these questions, he was throttling me. When my chin touched my knees, he tightened his grip. When I tried to get up, this man called Man tried to work me up. He said "What is this one doing here". I told these people that I do not know anything about the top ten. One of these "boere" said "Take the thing out of here. Take him out of here".

So when I got outside the people were forced to kiss the wall. If you tried to look, you were slapped on your face. At that time my waist had already been damaged. I said to Tungata, "Man, I want to sit down. I am tired. He said, "You are not going to sit down". He was wearing a certain scarf on his neck. He said we are from Uitenhage now. We damaged a certain house belonging to the UDF people. Now we are in port Elizabeth. Well, he was just talking to himself. I did not really take any notice of him.

At 11h00 in the morning, security from Uitenhage arrived. They offered us curry and rice. I said I do not want anything to eat. Thy said, "You better eat because now you are going to Pretoria and in Pretoria you would not eat". So two of us were taken, that was now Matiwane and myself. We were taken to Jeffreys Bay. Some went to Humansdorp, some went to Despatch. We were eight. We went into one cell in Jeffreys Bay. Matiwane was in the first cell, the second one was empty and I was put in the third cell. In the cell the toilet was blocked. When I reported the toilet, I was told that I must just leave the door open.

Supper came at 17h00. We were given "stywe pap" and coffee. We were supposed to eat that "stywe pap" with our own hands. Then we were sent back home at 20h00 during the evening on a Monday. Then were not told where we were being taken to. From Jeffreys Bay to Uitenhage I found this "boer" that was driving. He just said to me "No, do not worry".

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Gungqile, there is something that I did not really catch properly from what you said. I did hear it, but it was just that you were too fast. So the interpreter could not get all of it. You said something about the sheds that.... Please repeat about that.

WITNESS: When I left the first office that had the "boers", while I was standing I realized that my back and my waist was very sore. Is aid that I wanted to sit down. He said "Yes, you can sit down." So I did. He said to me, "You know, we are from Uitenhage, from Grahamstown. That is where we damaged a certain house belonging to the UDF. When they responded to this, we left. Now we are here in Port Elizabeth".

Mr D NTESEBEZA: .... that they, the police, go to Uitenhage and pretend to be members of AZAPO by wearing AZAPO shirts. Is that correct? Must I repeat the question?

WITNESS: Yes, the way you are putting it is correct. Yes, they used to go to Grahamstown.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Were they policemen?

WITNESS: Yes, they were policemen but they were wearing AZAPO shirts and they would damage houses belonging to the UDF people. The UDF, when they were responding to AZAPO, they as policemen would leave. All this that were happening were done by them as policemen.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Let us go back to June 1986. That is when you were now arrested by the police. You were taken to St Albans where you were kept until 11 June 1987.

WITNESS: Yes, I was arrested in 1986, put into St Albans. At that time I used to have a problem with my head. It used to be quite painful and it used to become worse if I am in a prison. There was nothing more painful to me than being in prison and not given a chance to go to court. Just sit there and count the plates of the "stywe pap". On 11 June, I was taken to a psychiatrist who was called Kid. I spent something like half and hour, handcuffed, in the office of this special branch. From there I was taken into a clinic. I was handcuffed at that time. I asked them to tell these people to take all these things from me. They ignored me. I was handcuffed in front of the psychiatrist, right through until I went home.

The treatment I received when I was in prison was even worse. There was a certain tablet that I was told not to take too much of. Then I was told to take it back. I used to report to a certain "boer" called Steyn. This guy was not right mentally. You would talk to him and before you finish what you are saying, he would answer you back. He said the person who you are reporting to, he studied for seven years, trying to be a doctor. So I thought let me just leave him alone. This went on, being in prison and the doctors for a long time.

Then I was taken from Livingstone Hospital. Then I was transferred to Queenstown at Ndumangeni. There was an argument now about who is supposed to give a second opinion. He said he is the one who is supposed to give any permission for a second opinion, not the policemen. Before I went into the Ndumangeni there was an argument. But he said I must be taken to Cape Town. The policemen said I must wait, the doctor would come to Port Elizabeth. The doctor came to me. When this Cape Town doctor arrived he asked where I was taken from. I told him that they took me from the hospital. Then he said "I am going to tell them they must take you back to the hospital again." So they did. After the doctor talked to me about my problems I was then taken back to the hospital. I stayed in the hospital for two weeks.

On the third week the security guards came to the hospital to fetch me. They took me by force. They were in four cars and we were taken into a provincial hospital. I was given a special room in the P4 ward. It had a bed and a wardrobe and there was a door that could be locked. Mr Harding who was guarding me at that time, he used to speak Xhosa. He used to say to me, here is a pen, here is a bottle. You are going to use them if you want to relieve yourself. "If you want to use the pen and that bottle, I am not going to use that floor".

The psychiatrist came and gave me some tablets which knocked me out until the following day. The following day I could not even stand up, I was shaking. I was literally shaking. It was 10 November. I was not asked anything by the security branch. Nobody said anything to me, why I was arrested. The biggest problem that I was the one who was bread winner at home and while I was sitting here there was no income at home. That really got to me.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: So you left that prison without being questioned by the security branch at all?

WITNESS: Could you please repeat that?

Mr D NTESEBEZA: You were released from being arrested without being asked any questions by this security branch after a year?

WITNESS: Yes, it was after a year.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: While you were still in prison, if I understand you well, you hear that there was a problem between the Africans and UDF.

WITNESS: It was during January 1987, I am not quite sure about that. This was discussed by the prisoners, that when we get out of this place, they must not just be loose, because we do not really know what is happening outside. Stories that people received were that people were being beaten up and they would be hiding in bushes, being chased by certain helicopters. And these policemen would burn people's houses.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Were you ever attacked by these Africans?

WITNESS: Yes, it was on 28 June.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Please tell us more.

WITNESS: What happened was, on the 27th there was a rugby match. That was the first weekend when I was released from jail. After that I went back home. At 02h00 am or 03h00 am there was another Kombi that was in front of my house. We saw it leaving and then we wondered when this car arrived as it is leaving now. We did not mind about that. In the morning we took a taxi, but this taxi took a wrong turn. I said to this driver "Please, just drop me here". And this policeman said "No." He simply ignored me.

It stopped at Khayelitsha, next to a lot of people. It is very difficult to tell you how I got out of that place. I could only identify a few people who were there at that time. We went through Marhana and Solilo. I was beaten up at Solilo until I got unconscious. I regained my consciousness in August when I was in the hospital. I lost some of my teeth. I do not know what happened to my stomach. Then I was transferred to Johannesburg.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Please take your time. Do not rush yourself.

WITNESS: I was transferred to Cambridge Clinic in Johannesburg. Even at that time I was not mentally well still. People told me that I was being assaulted, that is not true. But when I looked at the cut in my stomach and I looked at the loss of my teeth, I would believe them. But now when my mind was coming back, around September, I could feel that yes, I am becoming well. I could remember things. Then on 9 December, I cam back to Port Elizabeth. I did not go back to Grahamstown.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: In your statement you said there was another policeman who wanted to shoot at you while you were still lying on the ground after being assaulted.

WITNESS: I missed to tell you about that one. No, this was not a policeman. This man was Mbityana. He was an African. He wanted to kill me. This happened on 26 June 1987. It was during the day, right in broad daylight. People tried to stop Mbityana from shooting me. He spoke with some of these policemen. A question that I still have in my head is why do you ask him who is living here because I was on that ground for a long time. I do not know about that. People are telling me this. I was unconscious. When he was trying to shoot at me, that was the time I was unconscious. When he was trying to shoot at me, that was the time I was unconscious on the ground.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: We are going to wrap up now. I just wanted to find out, besides the injuries that you have in your stomach, this ugly scar that you have in your stomach, where else were you injured in your body while you were assaulted by these Africans?

WITNESS: Some of the scars, that still need treatment, that were not taken care of while they were still fresh. These questions reminds me of something that I wanted to expose to the Commission. Right here, this is a cut. The doctors told me that there is a glass that I still have in my lip. I still need some operations. I am very disturbed by this whole thing. I still have a loss of memory, but after nine years now my amnesia is not well cured still. I still need a psychiatrist but the problem is that I am not working. I am just at home, unemployed.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: I noticed that the charges that you laid in the Courts, when you claimed the money of about R22 000,00 by Vanessa Braalton, that was settled.

WITNESS: The charges that I laid for assault that was done in May, it was R28 000,00. They sent me a letter, offering R5 000,00. We decided, yes, we are going to take this because we do not know what is coming next. That is what I did not understand exactly, because I do not know how could they offer something for my body. This is my body. If you can, I want those people to give me the amount that has been claimed initially. Not this R5 000,00.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: You were claiming this money because you were assaulted by the police?

WITNESS: Yes.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Did you name these police at the time?

WITNESS: Yes, I did.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Vanessa Braalton might have all these files.

WITNESS: Yes, these files are still there.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Is there anything Gungqile, that you would like the Commission to do for you?

WITNESS: I have a child who is a student at UPE. I do not have a cent to educate this child. I am just taking loans. One after another. Secondly, there is a matter of the blue card. On 28 June when I was assaulted, this blue card was a discharge on 29 June. I do not know how this works. Thirdly, the fact that I still need some specialists. I do not know how I can get those specialist for myself. I do not know if you can help me with that. Thank you.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Thank you. Anyone else with a question? Pumla Gobodo?

Ms P GOBODO: Thank you. I have two questions for you. I would like to start by saying, if someone that has pain like yours, sometimes it is difficult for a person to show how painful this is to him. I would like to ask you, do you feel angry sometimes? Anger that you cannot even control, because of what happened to you?

WITNESS: Sometimes, yes. I do get furious about what happened to me. Then sometimes I want to scream. Usually what happens after that, I cannot even sleep until 01h00 am. It is still haunting me in my head. I do not know how I can help this.

Ms P GOBODO: Yes, it is because I can still see that you still have that anger in you. It is understandable because these other things that happened to you and you could not even fight for yourselves. Even the Courts could not fight for you. Secondly, you said something about when your Kombi was burnt, you mentioned Kinikini's son. Could you please elaborate on that? I am asking it because Kinikini's name was mentioned here. If you elaborate more, we would be happy to know who was that son and how did you know about this.

WITNESS: I said we caught one of the boys who was running away in the street and he said he was being sent by Silumko. Silumko was Kinikini's son. It was February 1985 when I met Silumko. We were driving cars, both of us. He was shooting at me. The amazing thing is that I was the one who was arrested, not him. The case went on, we went to court. There were three of us but we were released because there was nothing that I did. It was the security branch from Uitenhage. I had already taken the statement. The policemen said there was another bomb and he said to me "Where is Fikile Kobese?" I said to him "Do not ask me, I do not know him." Then we parted. Thank you.

Mr D NTESEBEZA: Anybody else with a question? Thank you very much, sir. We heard all about your problems. Our sympathy goes to you. We say as a Commission, we will try by all means to help you out with your request. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The Commission will adjourn until tomorrow at 09h00. We want people to be here at 20h15 tomorrow morning. Please stand as the witnesses are leaving in show of respect. Order please.

COMMISSION ADJOURNED UNTIL 09H00 FOLLOWING DAY.