REVD TUTU: I would like to plead with you people, I have already requested you yesterday to behave yourselves. I don't want to repeat this today. Although we are not a Court of Law we should behave as if we are in a Court of Law.
This is not a rally, it is not a political rally. We are trying to listen to the people's stories, we would like everybody to get an opportunity. It doesn't matter to which organisation that person belong.
We need to conduct ourselves. I hope that we shall be proud of ourselves when we behave ourselves very well. Although we wouldn't like some of the details - the opportunity of telling their story, you will have your chance as everybody else has had a chance.
And I will not allow anyone to be intimidated or otherwise. I know that you are not deaf, you have taken into consideration what I have said, thank you.
MR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson. Good morning Reverend Maqina. Could you please put the light on, if you press the red button below, just help him. Thank you very much. Reverend Maqina you will recall that at the last hearing how there were a number of statements made referring to your name and you made a statement in a newspaper requesting the opportunity to come to the Commission.
We tried to honour that, unfortunately the circumstances at the time, did not lend itself, although you did come to this hall, and we said then that you would have an opportunity. We have tried very hard to keep all our promises.
And one of the promises is that this Commission is open to all who wish to appear before it and it is in that spirit that we are receiving you today. You have as much right as anyone else to put your case.
Mr Maqina, I have to ask you to stand now to take the oath.
MZWANDILE EBENEZER MAQINA: (sworn states)
DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed. As we always do, we request one of the Commissioners to assist in the giving of the evidence no matter who that person is and on this occasion the Reverend Bongani Finca, is going to lead you and I am going to hand over to him now, thank you very much.
REV FINCA: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. I'd like to give a report that before Mr Maqina could appear, we had a short discussion and we agreed that he will be allowed to take approximately 30 minutes, because we have other witnesses who are supposed to be appearing today.
He agreed that that was reasonable enough and stated that he would stick to the 30 minutes presented to him. I would like the people to understand that this was in agreement so that the people cannot expect more.
Secondly we have agreed with each other that the statement that he has brought along is the one that he is having documented, he would present this to the Commission and then he said that he would make this available to the Commission so that it would be kept as a record.
Lastly Mr Chairperson, I could perhaps say I'd like to support and expatiate over what you have already said, I would like to explain that this is a difficult period where we are going to be tested as a Commission to find out if we are tolerant enough. We know that the person who is giving evidence presently has been mentioned several times and in several instances during other hearings. We will try our best so that the period and the time that he has been allocated should be regarded as the most important one and we should all give him the dignity that he also deserves like any other person.
Mr Maqina has undertaken that when he gives evidence he would use the language which is proper and it would be proper for him to show dignity also. I'd request that Mr Maqina should confirm that he is Mr Ebenezer Maqina.
REV MAQINA: Yes, I am Mzwandile Maqina.
REV FINCA: I would like you to confirm that the evidence that you are going to give here or present here is the evidence that has been presented in the previous Commission hearing and you are also going to relate that to all the evidence given by other people, you are going to show whether there is truth or they are all lies, is that so?
REV MAQINA: Yes, that is so.
REV FINCA: Okay, please continue.
REV MAQINA: Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. I would like to be brief, I know the time is very short. I would like to start by saying I have come to give this evidence because of the community of Port Elizabeth because I would like them to understand clearly and have a vivid picture of what happened and this they should take as the true reflection of what I am going to say. Most of the time the people have been hearing one side, I never get an opportunity to explain to the community of Port Elizabeth, to state what is all this chaos and commotion that has been taking place. I would like to thank and express gratitude to the Commission for presenting to me this opportunity to present my statement so that I can show and express the side which was never known and it was never exposed to all the people.
I would like to start to briefly state the reasons for AZAPO to use my place as their hiding place. After the house arrest and burning orders which were ordered and I was given, the two borders used me to participate in their programmes. I remember AZAPO used to request me that I should be part of the June 16, when they have their organisations and their programmes and I was requested by the UDF to participate in the Dutch Reformed Church at Pengla so I am trying to show that they both used me as a person who was important.
I was known that I have formed the BPC which is a Black Conscious Movement and I am more orientated to Africanism. You can remember that all the preparations for Sobokwe's funeral were at my place, so the people understood that I was more orientated to the Black Consciousness Movement, more than the other side which believed in the freedom charter.
I want to present this because I understand that this was one of the reasons which caused all the problems. Both parties would come to my place and use me as one of their people. It was on the 28th of April in 1985, it was the Easter weekend, Batata Gani is a younger brother to John Gani who is well-known to us. He was shot by the police, so it was a very big funeral. Amongst the speakers there, I was also requested to be a speaker. This request came from the African Writers' Association because he was also a playwright. I can mention Reverend Gani, Nzamo and Hija and all others, they were the ministers who were there.
When I gave my speech I highlighted that there is this evil which has started to take the country by storm. The evil called necklacing, so I was requesting that the people should try to abate from doing that and I mentioned the Mtenigeni family, Singape who was from Magaleni and the other two children who were burnt in the park.
During that time there was no problem between the two organisations. But after this speech that I presented that day there were threats which I received from the other organisation. They said I could be targeted. On the 30th April, the same year, there were comrades, a large group of them who came to my place.
So I thought that they had come to kill me so I requested that we should go outside. Others came to my house and they ransacked the house. But I realised that they wanted Mafonqozi and Nqonbona, those were the AZAPO members, I knew them.
I tried to plead with them and they didn't even want me to talk here, they wanted to take me away. I think my daughter is the one who saved me, she was five years at the time, because she was always clinging to me and she didn't want to leave me.
I think the other person who might have tried to talk to them was Africa, I've forgotten his surname, because he was with them, he persuaded them to stop what they were doing. I want to highlight the fact that I stated that they should stop this because they had said they are going to crush AZAPO, so I said that I would like to speak to the leaders of AZAPO.
True to my word I did so and then we had discussions with the AZAPO members. I know that the UDF members were informed about the results of our discussion because it was a peaceful discussion and we were trying to stop the killings that were beginning to sweep the country.
I was at the court chambers in my offices and then I received a telephone call. I was informed by somebody and he was one of the parents, he was a parent to Dekhera who was an AZAPO member. She was requesting me to come, I went there and I found that there was a South African Police Force and there were policemen in their police vans.
I found one of the children and he directed me to the house where there were children who were injured. I transported these injured members to Livingstone Hospital. I went passed my house, just to inform my wife that I was taking the injured to the hospital.
Then they were taken to hospital and they received treatment. I took them again in the evening, be able to take them back home. When I got my place, they said there were about 40 to 50 young men. They stated that there was a battle which had started and stated that there was a lot of houses which were being burnt.
They were also threats that I would also get my house in ashes. It was not long we found that young children, I think they were between 12 or 13 years of age, they came to my house and the AZAPO members chased them away. Two were taken by these AZAPO members, that is why now I am accused of all this involvement with the AZAPO members.
The children then were interrogated and they stated that they have been sent by Mr Monopogela. They had a list of the houses that they were supposed to burn down and those that they have already burnt down.
They had already burnt 5 houses and you could see that all those houses belonged to some of the AZAPO members. And those members were already accommodated at my place. You can imagine yourself the anger that could have started to develop amongst the AZAPO members.
Then there was a suggestion that Mr Monopogela should be called so that they could come and confirm what was said by these children. Some few members went to take in. That is the reason why I say what Mr Monopogela said is half true.
The leadership amongst the people whom we can announce and mention Gona, Zinama and others, they decided that they should go and call Monopogela. Dukombena even mentioned this in the newspapers. Mr Maqlati who was in the Regional Offices at AZAPO also stated that they went to call Mr Monopogela, in other words these never came to my instructions.
I also wanted him to come so that we could iron out all the problems. Monopogela came and he was nearly injured because some wanted to attack him immediately. But we tried to stop the attack.
Mr Monopogela then was questioned by the members of AZAPO. The most important issue that was crucial was that they wanted to diffuse the situation and they also wanted to order him to go to the leadership. There were about 40 to 50 of them who were able to come.
Mr Monopogela stated that he was sent by some of the authorities of his organisation. And he mentioned that he has been to them and reported that we have discussed something peacefully.
There was an exchange of words. The other members tried to escort him, because they realised that his life was at stake because there was others who didn't even want to listen to Monopogela so he was escorted by other AZAPO members to his place.
If Mr Monopogela can speak the truth, he can state and mention the fact that really he was protected by the AZAPO members. We were also affected by the fact that he even had a scar because he was attacked by one of them. I would like to state that nobody was ever necklaced at my place. I am surprised because Mr Monopogela made a statement the following day after our discussion in the City Press and he never mentioned anything about the necklacing that took place.
He knew that I was trying to control the situation. Unfortunately Mr Monopogela was the person who tried to speak badly about the AZAPO members and myself in New Nation City Press and Weekly Mail.
Everybody who used to degrade us was Mr Monopogela. Mr (indistinct) the other day he was (indistinct), he said this battle could be between Monopogela who is a charterist and Maqina, the Black Consciousness.
I went to Liqina and informed him about the third force which might be instigating all the chaos among the organisations.
REV FINCA: Mr Maqina, could you please just stop a little bit. Could you go back again when you informed this newspaper about the third force, we would like to find out more about that.
REV MAQINA: Why I talked to probe and mentioned about the third force, I had some reasons because you would find that when there were attacks, you would find that it would be reported that it was the AZAPO members who attacked the UDF members, but I knew that most of them were inside in my place.
There was a fight between UDF and AZAPO members. Allegedly AZAPO members, and they were at Njole, but it was strange because all the members that I knew, were at my place. You would see that there were members who would fight wearing their T-shirt, it was very strange that how could they identify themselves when they were going to a fight.
And then we were trying to warn people and say it was very difficult to make things clear for everybody because we could realise that there might be somebody who was using AZAPO as the people who were causing the chaos.
REV FINCA: Excuse me Revd Maqina. I am interested in the aspect of the third force because you will notice that if you were following these hearings here in Port Elizabeth, there was mention of a conflict between UDF and AZAPO. Many witnesses were raising the point that police were posing as AZAPO and attacking UDF members.
That ties up with what you are saying about the third force, but you're not coming out clear about what you are actually saying. What is your opinion or your view on this?
REV MAQINA: This conflict between AZAPO and UDF, it created an opportunity for the third force to come in. The reason we've raised this point was that as I said earlier, that we would hear of attacks between AZAPO and we would never have been at that place. The police used this opportunity as much as they possibly could. If you were to listen to what has been stated, I remember one who was stating that the police said to her, we will take you to Maqina's house and then cut you into pieces. Now those were some of the strategies that people were being said against one another. The two organisations but at this time, this did not come out very clearly.
The police didn't end there, they didn't end there. There were many houses that were alleged to have been attacked by AZAPO when in fact AZAPO had never been even close to those houses. I can give an example of this smear campaign or the so-called character assassination which was intensified.
The police also had a role to play. I remember Benjamin Skosana who was Regional President of AZAPO, came to my place one time and told me that two students came to my house and they said to me when they were at Soweto in the evening, they saw a certain Black policeman taking rounds in the township and he called them.
The police called them and then there was a police, there was someone who as carrying a firearm, a gun and they said do you know us, do you know me and they were worried that if they said, yes, they knew, they will be in trouble, so they said, no they didn't know them.
So this man said okay, I am reverend Maqina, you can go. Benjamin was the one who was telling me the story, he is the Regional Chairperson of AZAPO.
All this time the policemen who were saying this was Tsungata. How many people this policeman went to, posing, people who didn't know them posing as AZAPO or as Maqina - how many other people, because we only know of that incident?
Which is very sad to me because AZAPO is not coming to give its side because I am not representing AZAPO here, it is a pity that they are not coming themselves to put their side of the story.
We told the ministers, the ministers of religion in PE all the time, at the beginning of this and all the time I had contact with the ministers here, like Reverend Tsonga, all the time, right at the beginning of this conflict and I would report to them, I would say this is the situation. My wish then was that the children would get a place of safety which was a church hall because I was a family. As a family man I couldn't afford to stay with so many people.
But this didn't materialise, however, the ministers did try to arrange meetings and contact between the leadership of UDF and AZAPO to discuss peace, and I would be there. I remember in the first truce which was on the 12th of May when some of AZAPO youngsters were going home. They couldn't sleep that night, they were hit again.
Zandile April was one of them, he died that time. He was a member of AZASM, which was the student wing of AZAPO. Hendricks Miela, was one of the kids that were attacked after a truce that we made on that same day.
Dr Mongaliso Maqina knows of the manner in which the AZAPO youngsters were being chased around and hunted, even at workplaces. Because at the time there was a nurse working for him who was Nospiwa Tsasjas. She was taken out of her place of work at the surgery and he tried to protect this kid being attacked in front of him. This nurse also ran to my place and we took her to hospital, she was in a terrible state.
I am trying to show here the harassment and the hitting of the AZAPO youngsters from their homes and how they ran to my place. Chairperson, I am not surprised that the majority of people whose kids were members of the UDF were talking, were mentioning my home, because it was the only place of safety that the AZAPO youngsters ran to. It is therefor (indistinct) to whom something happened who was affected by the conflict who would tell you that they ran to Maqina's house because that is where they were indeed.
It didn't end with the truce, our attempts to make peace, didn't end with the truce. Because I remember one time reverend Soka and Koserigeka and Nangoia, it was on Saturday in May, they said it was okay, I could get the opportunity to talk to the community at the service that was going to at Denqwenqwe, the denominational service it was.
Although the AZAPO members didn't want me to go I decided I wanted to go because there for me was an opportunity to the community exactly what was happening and why am I receiving and keeping AZAPO people but also wanting to get a suggestion from them as to the solution.
I was accompanied to this meeting by 12 members of AZAPO. Fortunately on that same morning, on that Sunday, Ishmun Kalvelha, the President of AZAPO came to Port Elizabeth for other reasons, just to have a look at the condition here. We asked him to accompany us so that he could talk to the community because at this stage the whole community was convinced that AZAPO was working hand in hand with the councillors and AZAPO was doing this. This was the impression that was the perception of the community and we went to explain.
And the person conducting the service was reverend Andile Mbeti. We were not given the opportunity to speak. We were not given the opportunity because the atmosphere, the atmosphere was that of tension, there was even songs, freedom songs, that was being sung and ministers got away very quickly and we were left alone, the ministers had gone and we were nearly killed there at Denqwenqwe.
But we were saved by Mr Qweqwe and Mr Siwisa and Jimmy who opened the gate for us which was closed. On our way out our bakkie was shepherded by thousands and thousands of this people, it was being shunted to Soweto.
Fortunately it was the 24th of May, fortunately they forgot an opening through the ghetto direction and the driver went through that gap and there was a rain of stones, but they missed us, but those who were at the back of the bakkie, fell, because we didn't warn them. One of them was Dumbana, the Chairperson of AZAPO. His story is in the Herald of the 21st of May, where he was nearly necklaced and the necklace was already hung around his neck at Red House where Kalvelha pleaded with the UDF that they should talk to their supporters that they shouldn't treat AZAPO as a structure (tape starts) ... and again there was an attack even at that same church.
And that is where we protected Mkozeli Jack because they wanted to hit him because how we could be attacked each time we tried to make peace. I am trying to show the steps we took to make peace, because the perception is that we didn't want peace. But very briefly Chairperson, the peace that eventually prevailed was in January, 1st of January 1986 and I was the one responsible for that.
REVD TUTU: I don't want to interrupt him, I am leading a delegation here, Truth and Reconciliation Commission to Pretoria. I thought I may be able to sit through until - the flight is at twenty to twelve so I am very sorry because we came mainly for the Special hearing for yesterday but this one, we are doing it because we have to do it, because our constitution demands that at regular interval we should give reports to the President.
I have to leave, I wish to apologise to all of you and to you Reverend Maqina, I am going with the Dr Boraine, he has gone, he has gone to fix arrangements for our tickets, I am very sorry.
REV MAQINA: ... others to come to my place because we could see that the other attempts of the ministers, as much as they did, but they were not succeeding. Mr Nqowi, Mr Fazi, Mr Malgazi, Mkozeli Jack and others came to my place. They managed to come to my place and we talked at my place.
For the first time attempts that was being made, peace prevailed because immediately they left and went to their constituencies to preach about peace and (indistinct) was the only newspaper that reported this at the time.
However, our attempts didn't end there because the Archbishop himself, I once requested the National Executive of AZAPO to appeal to the Archbishop and ask him to come down here. But I am very sorry that the National Executive issued a statement in the Herald in which they didn't take my advice. I am trying here to show our attempts at creating peace.
The steps that I took to create peace. I was never a member of AZAPO and I am not a member of AZAPO.
REV FINCA: Sorry people, please, please let's be tolerant, let's be patient.
REV MAQINA: For quite some time we tried to explain this but the newspapers always jumped into that conclusion and give me that position, because when they came they would ask me about AZAPO, but is became very clear at the first inquest of Mr Goniwe when Imran Moosa the AZAPO attorney, he was also a member of AZAPO, he explained very clearly that although there were AZAPO members, they got accommodation at my place. He explained to people that Reverend Maqina was not a member of AZAPO.
I don't know what other proof I should bring to show that I wasn't a member of AZAPO. Coming now to allegations or accusations of Mrs Xunta, who was organising the rally, who is said to have been organising the rally, asking if the evil deeds which I have perpetrated were forgotten, but he didn't mention this and he reported that AZAPO was looking for him three times or four times.
Mr Xunta didn't tell the Truth Commission that the reason for AZAPO to look for him at that time was that he had some groups which went to stop at Getje's house and Molelo Getje at the time was a member of AZAPo. He still is, I think he is in Johannesburg up to today.
They wanted him, it is his home and he was not there, he was hiding at my place. When they didn't find him at home, they took his grandmother and burnt her feet. The grandmother to whom Molelo Getje had spoken.
That was the reason that Xunta, we call him Notu, he is known as Notu, that is why AZAPO is looking for him. This accusation and this smear campaign against, didn't only start yesterday, it started way back in 1985 when UDF couldn't defeat AZAPO. UDF had some regiments, some groups fight who had been used to fight very fearsome groups at the time.
REV FINCA: Excuse me just for a moment, I just want to make a plea, maybe I don't have the system, but I am talking now about myself, maybe it would upset me if it could appear here now that he and Dr Boraine are gone, order has also gone with them. I am not going to expand more on that. Let's give reverend Maqina an opportunity to speak, whether we agree with him or we don't, let's give him the opportunity.
We talk a lot, we will react when he mentions things that we do not agree with, I want to make that clear that we should give him a chance and be tolerant. Okay, you can go on.
REV MAQINA: Very briefly and quickly Chairperson. The smear campaign because there were problems with defeating AZAPO, they even went to the extent of saying there is Maqina in a helicopter, at that time I am at home.
There he is, he is in a hippo. I've never been into a hippo, it was only Xosilo who used it when he was going to my place. I remember one of the freedom fighters at Walmer, well-known freedom fighters from the Black Consciousness Movement, got the same problem. Moqitweqisan, we were surprised and shocked, the other day he came to my place and said, hey, it is alleged that I was in a hippo and he even decided to leave for the Transkei.
I am trying to say that there was a smear campaign against some of us and reports were that Maqina and AZAPO had killed Qodolezi and this would spread, but fortunately today those people are coming out and no one is asking for forgiveness. It would be alleged that if AZAPO had killed Goniwa, but Mr Bam who explained it at the first inquest that Mzwandile Maqina is not involved in this.
He said this at court, but still this smear campaign continues, but no one came forward to say no, we are sorry, you are just being, it is just a smear campaign against you. I don't remember hippo's protecting me next to my house.
Chairperson, AZAPO never wished that there should be an intensity of conflict between itself and UDF. If that was their wish, we would stay at Masangwana, there are families that are well-known members of the UDF, they are now ANC members, those families were never touched and yet that AZAPO was predominantly in that area, which was said to be their area.
All those show that us, people at Masangwana, young or adult, they were never asked to get up to protect us because UDF was attacking. As it was happening in other places and this was the witness of the UDF strategy because they would wake people up and say let's go and fight.
People who didn't know how they were going to fight and now when they can't defeat AZAPO, in these rallies they would accuse AZAPO of any things that they had not done and they would smear them and then they would say it is because maybe these police are watching them.
Chairperson, AZAPO and Africanism and members of liberation movement, they are not members of homeland structures or structures that were created by apartheid.
It is unfortunate, it is very unfortunate that at that time when there was conflict between the structures then there would develop this conflict. Now there is a mix up, a misleading, there are allegations that are misleading. People should say that AZAPO is helping police against UDF and it was not recognised that AZAPO had no intention of standing in the way of UDF programmes.
But they wanted to defend themselves because they were being attacked. How this started, I do not know.
I am concluding now, Chairperson when I say it is becoming clear now when these stories are being investigated that there was something odd, there was something very odd about what was happening to the extent, to regard to the extent the Boers were using people. I don't say AZAPO wouldn't retaliate, but it is clear that the Boers got the opportunity to fan, to help fan the conflict so that they could disrupt the struggle for liberation, but I am glad that after peace was cemented on the 1st of January this conflict came to an end.
I tried every, I tried as much as possible to show you that it was unfortunate that I found myself between the two factions. However, for us to be portrayed as murderers who were looking for people around to burn, there was conflict between two organisations, but we were friends with the members of the UDF like Aqweni, there was no ill-wind between us.
But I am sure that even the UDF leadership were very sorry about this conflict which was there between two organisations. Thank you Chairperson.
REV FINCA: Thank you Reverend Maqina for the way you have explained and the way you have used this opportunity. Before I hand over to the Chairperson of the Commission, the acting Chairperson of the Commission, I just want to ask you a few questions.
My first question is according to your statement, I am not talking now about AZAPO that is concerning you, do you not have even just one thing that you know which could justify you asking for apology from the Port Elizabeth community so that there should be some reconciliation and acceptance so that this chapter of the events of the past, could be closed, so that you could move forward hand in hand? Is there anything that, in your opinion, anything that you know that would require you to apologise to the PE community?
REV MAQINA: Chairperson, I would like to say that, to answer your question the conflict between these two organisations, it was not good thing to witness for anyone. There was no one who wanted for people to lose their lives, both sides.
Both sides, who were killed by UDF and who were killed by kids who used to stay at my place. I believe very strongly that I am very sorry about that but I cannot erase it, because if it was there, I cannot erase it.
I just want to be open that I can't apologise, I can't see myself apologising for false accusations, because there were false accusations spread about me and I can't apologise because I didn't commit. Because if I can apologise, then it would be admission but because of lives that were lost at the time, I humbly apologise for that.
I was never able to go to Kotoloze family to show my sympathy because there was this perception, this rumour that was spread that I was responsible, I couldn't go to the Goniwe who were my relatives, because there was this perception that was spread that I was responsible.
Now if maybe you suggesting that I should apologise for those, I am not able. I am sorry about it, but to the people of Port Elizabeth, I am thankful that I have got this opportunity but if you feel that I am guilty, that is how you feel. I do not blame you for not believing, because all these years that's what you've known all these years. But that's okay.
I would just like to ask people to go home and think about this and know that there was not just one organisation. It was two organisations. I do not know if I have answered your questions.
REV FINCA: Thank you. Thank you Reverend Maqina. That was - I just want to explain to you that I can't make you say I am sorry. I understand quite clearly that potential for reconciliation does exist at this moment, without just checking if that potential can be realised. But you are definitely saying in your conscience there is nothing that would require you to apologise because you are not responsible for the tears that were shed here, you are just being accused.
The other thing I would like to understand, you have mentioned misinformation that was spread in the press about you. At that time did you take any steps to correct this misinformation that was being spread by the press about you?
REV MAQINA: Thank you Chairperson. I just want to correct what you've said because I have said that because of lives that were lost at this time of the conflict, I humbly like all those who humble themselves and apologise, but what I tried to emphasise was that for accusations that were false, I cannot apologise. I just want to make that point very clear.
It doesn't suggest that I am not apologising, so much so that I even raised that even amongst the leadership we were friends, we were scratching one another's backs. I tried as much as I possibly could Chairperson, to correct the perceptions and the accusations that were being spread in the press.
I remember I tried through the City Press when there was an article which said when I was visited by some ladies (indistinct) who visited me to try and get a solution, these were the traditional women who came to see me, who were wearing traditional wear, I said this is something good that you are going, but I would like the UDF leaders to be here.
We quoted Mr Monopogela. When these ladies went to Mr Monopogela they told Mr Monopogela. What surprised me was that in the City Press the report was that Monopogela was the head of the UDF leaders.
This shocked me. What is usually the problem when you correct statements like that is that they, if they are released they are stuck away articles, very small stuck away and the accusation is splashed at the front page and the stuck away explanation is not seen by people.
I just saw when AZAPO was reacting to accusations, there was just one small stuck away article regarding their response to this accusation. But I tried everything I could. Thank you.
REV FINCA: Thank you. The last question to Reverend Maqina, then I can hand him over to you.
Reverend Maqina, we know that at the time of the oppression, many of our people, I am one of them, who were victims. People that I say is victims, myself included, who were because the system was desperate to keep itself in power, it took some people and used them and when they were finished with them, it discarded them and threw them in the rubbish box. People who were used like disposable handkerchiefs and thrown away when it is dirty and then they are forgotten about. I just want to ask you a question.
If you find it uncomfortable, just tell me. How do you see yourself, do you in any way think that the system used you or do you think that what you did you did out of your own conviction as a person?
REV MAQINA: Chairperson, I am bitter and I am angry to a great extent, especially to my people. To a great extent, to my people.
When they could accept that their people who were in the forefront of fighting for the struggle with their own people, people that they knew because they were a nuisance to the system, in other words the system would use opportunities like this to smear them, then they believe, then they forget conveniently the things, the contribution of those people.
I am not saying there are no, none of our people who were leaders who didn't cross to the side of the White, but I say I shall like others, I am not the only one, who withdrew because their people are looking down upon them.
There are some speakers here when I was listening, who explained clearly how the system tried to defame them, but other people are not being believed when they say that this is the way the system was doing this. I find myself a victim because the system was very, very effective in making people to see me as someone who was the cause of conflict, because that's what they wanted, because I was a torn in the system's flesh.
Chairperson, it was not the first time that I was protecting kids, giving kids shelter. Kids like Kuzeni Getsi, he used to go and hide, some of them were taken by the system and projected them as people who were with them and I am one of those victims, I have never been part of the system.
I was protecting AZAPO and African kids who were members of this liberation movements, and I will say this up till I die.
REV FINCA: Any more questions? Mr Sandi?
MR SANDI: Mr Maqina, the step that you've taken is a very big one, it is a very big step that you've taken. We have very few people who could take the step that you've taken.
When they are being accused, when there are some allegations that have been made about them, and have the courage and come up in public and react publicly in respond to those accusations and allegations. I just have a number of questions that I would like to ask you.
I will summarise, I will reduce them because of time constraint. Firstly I would like you to clarify this information in connection with your membership as an AZAPO member. Did you say you were not, you are not a member of AZAPO, did I get that right?
REV MAQINA: Yes, I said so.
MR SANDI: Are there any other political parties in which you were involved or for which you have been a member?
REV MAQINA: I've never been a member of the PAC, because I was accommodating Africanists and for the method that I was an Africanist, people thought that I was a member of the PAC.
MR SANDI: The picture that you tried to present before us, you mentioned the fact that there was a conflict between AZAPO and UDF. Did the AZAPO members stay with you and you accepted them? You also mentioned that the reason for them to be at your place you said you were more orientated towards Black Consciousness and PAC, was that the reason that you accommodated them? Were they members of those organisations?
REV MAQINA: Yes.
MR SANDI: Do you have any explanation for the reason for them to run to your place?
REV MAQINA: I explained this before. (tape starts) ... mention this organisation. I was used by AZAPO mostly. Maybe I didn't explain this - when AZAPO was founded its organiser Siphaqo Njaka who is presently an ANC member went to my place and I accommodated him. That might be another reason that the people associated me with AZAPO.
The third reason I can say this was not a planned arrangement. I just saved them impulsively.
MR SANDI: I'd like to pose this question so that we will not take a very long time. ... decided to come and ask for safety at your place?
REV MAQINA: No they didn't explain anything to me. They just saw me assisting some of the children and taking them to hospital and that was the beginning for all of them to go to my place.
MR SANDI: When we had hearings last month here in Port Elizabeth there was one of the witnesses Major General Holomisa, I think you know that he submitted some files to the Truth Commission, and there was a question that was directed to him, which went like this. And I would like to state that your name had already been mentioned frequently during that period.
There was a question to ask that was your name there, Mr Holomisa said yes. Can you explain this?
REV MAQINA: Mr Chairperson, unfortunately I didn't have those files, I have never seen them before, but I said to you I was never used, I still say I have never been used. I have never seen the files. I want to explain this.
In the first inquest, during Goniwa's inquest I was mentioned as a person who was responsible for some of the killings, but thereafter when investigations were made, the findings were that I was innocent. I cannot comment about those files, because I didn't see them, but I am not afraid of anything.
MR SANDI: Did you make any public statement when there was this conflict between the two organisations?
REV MAQINA: Yes, I did. I explained that I was not a member of either of the two.
MR SANDI: Thank you sir.
ACTING CHAIRPERSON: We'd like to thank you very much Mr Maqina. I'd like to express this - probably the Archbishop would also say the same.
I just want to add on what Mr Sandi has already said. I still want to thank you for your bravery and courage to appear before the Commission so that you can give the other side of the story. You have been courageous because there have already been stories alleging your involvement in all the problems that were prevalent at the time.
I also heard about the fact that you were mentioned during the death of Goniwe and I was interested because we were arrested and detained together with Goniwe.
I also attended the inquest, I heard what was said about you. I was disturbed, because I regarded Matthew as my brother, I still regard him so and as such you say you have nothing to do with his killings.
You have sworn and you say that in public. Truly speaking we might not know the truth presently, until we meet the other perpetrators of the violence and the evils that took place at the time.
Probably they will tell us the reasons and the real information of what happened. As Reverend Finca has already said we would also encourage that we should reconcile.
We've heard what you've said. You have expressed yourself in the public and specifically you communicated directly with the community of Port Elizabeth. I am certain there will be other talks again about your name, we hope that what you'd hear when the people are thinking over of what has been presenting here today, they would also attend and pay attention to what we have said in connection with reconciliation.
We hope that one day the truth will come out so that even the community in Port Elizabeth and South Africa as a whole, should reconcile and be healed because they would have got the truth that day. Thank you very much.
