DR BORAINE: Before I call the next witness I would just like to say how glad we are to have in the ... call Jeremiah Victor Sithole. Mr Sithole, yes, thank you for putting on the headphones. Let me just make sure you can hear me. Can you hear me alright?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR BORAINE: You can, fine. Alright. Mr Sithole, we want to welcome you very warmly to the Commission. We have just heard about an incident which took place and you are going to tell us about the same incident, I think, the KwaNdebele massacre which took place a very long time ago. You must have been very, very young because you are a young man still today and the story that you are going to tell us took place, I think, in 1986. Before I ask one of my colleagues to take over from me to assist you in telling your story would you please stand in order to take the oath. Would you raise your right hand please?
JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: (Duly sworn in, states).
DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. You may be seated. Mr Sithole, you have a very, very painful story to tell and it was only, almost by a freak that you yourself were not killed that night, but you are going to tell us about that and Mr Russell Ally is going to help you to do that and I hand over to him now.
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DR ALLY: Welcome Victor. You were one of the people who originally part of the group that went to KwaNdebele and as has already been said, you were fortunate to escape death that evening. Your account is a very important account because you were part of what happened. So I am going to ask you to tell us that account, to take your time because it is very important to hear what you have to say. So will you please, in your own words, in your own time, relate to us the events of June 1986?
MR SITHOLE: It started in Mamelodi at Uitrus. We left by transport to KwaNdebele to go and help the KwaNdebele people because the Mbokodo, in other words the police, were killing the children. We obtained transport, got onto the transport and we left for KwaNdebele. When we got to KwaNdebele we got to the supermarket at JB's supermarket. We stayed there and we assisted him because the police were harassing him as well by taking things from his shop without paying. We assisted him and we found that his store was attacked with a hand grenade and that is where we went while and we went to the supermarket. We started looking for people that could assist us to, we found that these people were staying at Vlaklaagte number two.
We went there to Vlaklaagte number two and found that the place is okay and we stayed there. We went to Einel's supermarket because we were helping them there and we were getting food there. We stayed there and we found some, somebody came there in an Isuzu, white Isuzu bakkie that, at the back was written I love Tembisa. This person told us that he was coming from Diep Five Rand with Solly and that he was going to help us in whichever way he could. While we were looking at ways for this we found that we did not have
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a map which we could use to escape the country. While we were sitting there trying to figure out a way to escape he said that, give us this map and I will show you which is the easiest way because we were working at Einel and we went to Pundu because Pundu was also a place that belonged to JB. We stayed there and drank liquor and enjoyed ourselves and we went back to Einel.
From there the following day he came back and said that we were going to meet at number two Vlaklaagte where, which Mrs Skhosana spoke about and we went there. When we got there we split up because the others wanted girls and so forth. Myself and Victor, there were two Victors, myself and another Victor lived in one house with these two girls. These girls stopped us from leaving and Victor forcefully left. It was not very far from there to this ladies place and we got there, Victor and got there and they did whatever was being done there and I remained behind with this girl. At about one or two I heard gunshots and I woke up this girl and said to her do you hear what is happening here. I heard gunshots and I woke up this girl and I said to her let us find out what is happening and when we looked, we saw cars outside. We saw, we peeped through the window and saw cars outside. This girl then said we should not let them see us through the window because if they do we might be in danger. When we looked on the one side we saw a Coyoko and when we looked again we saw a police van. We saw and a Hippo and a police van. There were police there who were shooting and there was no way we could get there so we remained in the house and about five o' clock in the morning we peered and when we got there we found that people had been massacred. The people were killed, it was just chaos. There was
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nothing we could do because the people were killed. I then fetched aunty Johannah and was talking to her and before I finished talking to her the police kidnapped me and took me to the police station.
When I got to the police station they detained me and said that I know too many things, but they would not charge me. They would just detain me without pressing charges. I remained in custody and after about two days when I came out I thought that I would inform my parents, but I found that the parents are aware of the children who had been killed. I then organised the Comrades and we went from Visakugle and Tweefontein and we took taxis to try and arrange for the funerals of these children because I was also in this group of Comrades. On the way to Denneboom, before we got into Mamelodi we met up with the police from Mamelodi this time. They stopped the vans and they took me. They arrested me and took me to the T5 cells. That is where they detained me.
When I got to the cells they said you have got too many stories, you should not go and make a speech, we are going to lock you up. I was detained and the funerals proceeded. After the funerals they released me and when I got home I asked how the funerals went and we were told that the funerals went well, but they are after the Comrades. I met with the Comrades and we spoke. I went to Solly directly because he was the one in charge of everything. So I asked Solly what happens now? Solly said have you got photographs and I said, yes, I have got the photos we took at Einel and I gave him the photographs. He looked at the photos and said to me, Victor are these people, so many people died and so many are, survived and I said, no, so and so has not
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passed away. Abraham is one of the people that have survived and those are the first people that I still organised for them to get petrol to leave. Samuel is at Nzindos and Abraham, I forgot the other ones name, but there were four of them and one girl and the driver. When the girl came back, she was there, but I did not see the driver again.
I asked this girl by the name of, I am trying to get to her name, but I will get her name. I asked her how everything went, how the other people went and she said, no, the people left okay and they got to where they were supposed to go. I then remained there safe in the knowledge that they had left safely. The police then arrived from Paul Kruger and said to me we want to discuss something with you. The people that passed away at KwaNdebele, you know what happened. I said I did know very little about it, but it is not something that I would care to discuss with you people again because it would be something that would expose me too much and it seems that I am working with you people and I do not know much about it, but if you want any information go to KwaNdebele and you will get the information that you want. The police then left me and when they came back they came back with Victor's mother and we Victor's sister and they begged me that we should go with them to Paul Kruger to make a statement. Thereafter we did so and the following day we went there.
When I got there they did not let me see the other parents. They put me one side saying that I should sit by myself and I was put in a room with nine policemen. When I was making this speech they said that I should, I was saying nine, there were policemen there, but they said, no, it is
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better for us to just give you money and whatever you want so that your parents do not know. I said, no, I do not agree with that. When I got to my mother I said to my mother, mum, this is what they want to do. They say they want to do these things for me and I do not agree with that. These whites when they looked at it and saw that I did not agree with it and they sent two black policemen, sent us directly to KwaNdebele because there were photos of the deceased at the police station.
When we got there we got the general of KwaNdebele and he said to us, listen, do not proceed with this and he told the policemen too that you are going to die. That is when I realised that there is something fishy going on. I also figured out a way that I should go on because I could see that this was not going according to plan because and coming back I decided that we had to use another route and not the route we had used in the first place to go back to Pretoria. When I got there I said to my mother, mum, things such as my photographs and things I am taking and I am leaving and if a policemen should come here looking for me say you do not know me because I see that things are very bad here in Mamelodi and I can see that the police are looking for me in connection with a lot of things that when I disagree with them, it is going to get me into trouble.
Then I met up with the mothers of the people at B1 at told them how everything went and that we nearly died. I said, look mum, I think it is best if I leave because I see myself as being the polices target and it is obvious that here at Paul Kruger there are white policemen there who, one of them was a Warrant Officer from KwaNdebele and at the time this incident took place he was present and he was one
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of the people who pressed me to say everything that I had seen and what had happened and tried to force me to do a whole lot of things by giving me cigarettes and money and saying that I should not worry, that I would be okay, if you want a woman we will give you a woman, if you, do not worry about anything, leave your things at home and we will leave with you. We will make everything right for you because he said, look, we have got a camp at Johannesburg. I could see that this kind of camp that they are talking about in Johannesburg is where they want to kill me. I said, no, I am not going there and I went back to KwaNdebele.
I got to an attorney by the name of Olivier and told him and he said to me do not worry, that is not a problem. Come to me and come and work and I went to him and I worked. I could see that this was a problem for me because a lot of people were after me saying that I knew everything. Be that as it may, even though I knew quite a bit of things, when I looked at aunty Johannah, her child, she said her child passed away, but her child did not pass away, but what aunty Johannah did which I am sorry about is that she says her child passed away and her child is buried, but her child was not buried. Her child is alive and in Tembisa and the second point is that aunty Johannah is the one that directed the police. The police did not know that I was a Comrade. They pointed to say that here is Victor. So it is such things. So I know that aunty Johannah has got a lot of things and she says that the cases at KwaNdebele did not proceed, but the cases at KwaNdebele were white washed so that the facts did not surface properly and she was involved and I am sure that the General at KwaNdebele whose name was also involved. If you should go to him at any time he will
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tell you that she was involved and I see no reason why she should try and make herself look innocent saying that she does not even sell dagga and things like that because she use to give us dagga because it amazes me that she says she is not involved in any of these things, she does not sell dagga or anything where we use to get dagga from her. She never use to give us food. We use to get food from Einel's Supermarket.
A lot of things that aunty Johannah has said here I do not agree with because I know that she is included. She use to close the gates and in, on that particular day the gate was not closed. It is such things and it is when I look at it and I, when I assess this whole thing it seems that there is something funny going on because after this whole thing happened she never ever contacted me again. She wanted to have nothing to do with me. It is the first time I see here today, but I tried to force my way to see her, but she did not want to see me, but whenever I tried to talk to her she would say that I am busy and I cannot speak to you and saying that, look, my child has passed away, but the child is alive. The child is in Tembisa. We established that her, the child was alive and the child was in Tembisa and she says that, and it is, I see just as a concocted story. Even now she says to me that when we asked her about the Comrades of KwaNdebele wanting to know if the child was buried, but where is the death certificate because, obviously, if he has passed away there should be a certificate, but she has not got any such documents. She will tell you about her mother and she will tell you about her brother and tell you about somebody else in Cape Town, but you would never be able to establish anything concrete,
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but what we do know is that this child is alive and also Solly of D5 is involved with aunty Johannah because when the photographs were released he gave them to me and the photographs are not available anymore, but the photographs that she has are the photographs that the police had which we also took from the police which were photostatted and given to aunty Johannah. They manipulated this whole matter to suit themselves. When I look at this whole thing I just thought that I do not have the strength to fight all this. Even if I do try and have this thing reviewed it is not going to make any difference, but in a lot of things she is involved. So she is involved in a lot of things because we use to stay at her place and when we ran away to her she did not ask us many questions. The person from Tembisa said that he saw this child at Eersterus which was just a story.
CHAIRPERSON: What we should and try and do is to hear your story and tell us about what happened to you. We are not a Court of Law.
MR SITHOLE: I am trying to tell you everything.
CHAIRPERSON: We have to try not to attack each other, launch scathing attacks on each other. Tell us about what happened to you, how and things related to your statement, what was written in your statement so that whatever other allegations are made about other people that they would be able to come and defend themselves, but let us not try and launch any attacks on each other.
MR SITHOLE: We are not launching any attacks on each other. This the Truth Commission and we are here to speak the truth to say what happened so that would be hiding the truth in other words and that is wrong because then I would not be telling the truth because that means that I have still got
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something that I am not saying. I want to tell everything and make it public. So if I am going to omit certain things and try and omit things that a certain person did which are relevant to this case, I just want to speak the truth and let you people know that certain people are bad news. It is quite obvious that certain people are just bad news.
DR ALLY: Victor maybe it will help if I ask a few questions just to try and put all the pieces together.
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: Firstly.
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: You did not go to KwaNdebele, all of you on your own initiative. You were actually recruited. Is that not so? In your statement you speak about ...
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: ... a meeting and a Comrade called Solly. Was Solly the person who actually asked you and other youth to go to KwaNdebele or how was this decision actually taken to go to KwaNdebele?
MR SITHOLE: Solly told us that we should unite and then go and assist at KwaNdebele because the police are the ones that are killing the children and taking food from the supermarkets for free and just doing many things. So this was the cause of us meeting and then going to KwaNdebele to render assistance.
DR ALLY: Now this Solly did you know him before? What was his background?
MR SITHOLE: I knew him then and it is somebody that I grew up with. I know him up to this day.
DR ALLY: So you still have contact with him, you still see him or do you just know that he is still around?
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MR SITHOLE: Yes, he is still around. He is alive.
DR ALLY: And when Solly asked you and a number of other youth to go to KwaNdebele were you in any way suspicious or did you agree that this was something that you wanted to do? How was Solly able to convince you?
MR SITHOLE: No, there was no problem because he was okay. We got along quite well.
DR ALLY: Now the transport to KwaNdebele, and I want you just to think very carefully about this, because later I am going to ask you about some other youth. Unfortunately it is not possible for us in these public hearings to hear everybody's statement. As the Archbishop said we have to use the statements as a window into looking, as to what happened, but every statement we get is very important and there are some statements of parents whose children also disappeared more or less the same time. Now, this, the transport to KwaNdebele, now in your statement you say that it was SABTA who provided Combis. Is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: And what was the colour of these combis? Can you remember?
MR SITHOLE: I do not want to lie. I think the one was white. This is like ten years back, you know, colours are not something that you would be able to remember. I mean they are not particularly relevant.
DR ALLY: The reason I ask you that is because in many of the other statements the mothers say that the last time that they heard about their children was that they got into a white combi to go to KwaNdebele. So if you cannot remember that is okay, but I just thought maybe you would be able to corroborate that. Now, when you got to KwaNdebele the first PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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place you went to was Mr J B Shabangu. Is that correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: Now why did you go to this place? This Mr Shabangu had a supermarket. Why was that the place where you were dropped off?
MR SITHOLE: Could you please repeat the question?
DR ALLY: Why was it, why were you taken to Mr Shabangu's supermarket?
MR SITHOLE: Because Mr Shabangu was, the Mbokodo who use to take things from his shop without paying and just do funny things and Solly was somebody who organised us to go there and try and defend him and to also defend the people. Us as Comrades were to go there and defend the people that the police were harassing.
DR ALLY: Now earlier in your testimony you spoke about photographs being taken. Were these photographs taken at Mr Shabangu's supermarket?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: And the reasons for taking these photographs? Did you know why these photographs were being taken?
MR SITHOLE: I could say quite easily because JB use to take the photographs so that they, for the sake of memories when I think. I mean he was just doing it for memories, but I cannot think of any other reason why JB would take the photos.
DR ALLY: So you did not think there was anything strange about him taking photographs of all of you when you had just arrived?
MR SITHOLE: No, I never had any such kind of suspicion because we use to go to him and eat there and everything. So there was no reason for me to suspect.
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DR ALLY: Now at that time how many of you were actually staying in the supermarket? Can you remember? Do you, if you cannot that is okay, but do you know the number of Comrades?
MR SITHOLE: No. Without lying we were, there were first 12 of us that were staying there.
DR ALLY: First 12 of you.
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: Now one evening, the evening of the 12th of June 1986 the supermarket was actually attacked and you say some people got injured. Now after this attack why did you not leave to go back to Mamelodi? Why did you still stay there after realising that the situation was actually quite dangerous and some people were injured in the attack?
MR SITHOLE: Because the time they shot the people at Einel, the reason we did not go back was that we were staying there because, so that, trying to defend these people from being harassed by the police because Mbokodo use to take the people and burn their feet with, in galleys, by taking their feet and placing them in a galley of coals and burning their feet. So if we had to leave they would harass these people even more.
DR ALLY: But how were you going to defend yourself? Did you have any arms, did you, guns or and after this police attack how were you going to defend yourself because you say in your statement that the attackers wore green police overalls. Is that correct? So how were you going to defend yourself?
MR SITHOLE: We had made certain plans in the sense that we use to use petrol bombs. We would take a petrol bomb and throw it by rope to, at a distance and know that once it hit PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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it hit wherever, it would explode.
DR ALLY: Now after this incident you say that a black woman by the name of Johannah who was also employed at the supermarket offered you accommodation. Now this Johannah that you are speaking about, is this Johannah Skhosana? Are you absolutely sure about this because if you, Mrs Skhosana in her evidence before you actually said that she had no link and never worked.
MR SITHOLE: Could you just repeat the question nicely please?
DR ALLY: You say that as a result of this attack you were then offered accommodation at the home of a Johannah. Who was this Johannah?
MR SITHOLE: We left Einel and went to Johannah's place and we were told that they found Johannah and she had a place. So that was when we went to her, but JB knew that we were going to stay at Johannah's place because that is what they told us at the shop. Yes, this is the same Johannah.
DR ALLY: And she was employed by, are you saying that she was an employee of Mr Shabangu, that she worked at his supermarket?
MR SITHOLE: No, she was not working there.
DR ALLY: The reason that you went to Johanna's house, can you actually, if she was not employed, as you say, by Mr Shabangu, why was it her house that was chosen as a house for you to go and stay in?
MR SITHOLE: Because the people that knew her, that were living with her at B1, we all lived in Mamelodi and they knew her. So they knew her and they said that we should go to Johannah's. I mean somebody that knows you would not desert you.
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DR ALLY: Was this because of the family connection and because of her brother as well? Was that the reason that you went to her place because she knew about the family in Mamelodi and because her brother was, because you knew her brother as well?
MR SITHOLE: They did not know me. They knew Bung and Victor and company.
DR ALLY: Now on the night of the actual shooting you had decided to go and sleep at a girlfriend's place and that is why you were not in the house at the time. That is correct?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: Now, Mrs Skhosana in her evidence said that the people who did the shooting wore camouflage uniforms and they had balaclavas over their faces. Were you able from where you were, where you had slept that night, were you able to actually see who the attackers were?
MR SITHOLE: I heard the gunshots and that is when I woke up because there were several gunshots and it was not far from Johanna's place. I was number three and Johannah's place was approximately from where I am sitting to where this lady is sitting. My girlfriend's place was where, the distance from where I am sitting up to and Johanna's house was where the lady is sitting across from me. So when we heard the gunshots, when we heard the gunshots the first time and the second time we jumped up and ...
DR ALLY: So you are sure these were police vehicles. This was a Hippo that the attackers were firing from.
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: Now this incident took place about one o' clock in the morning and you say that at about five o' clock that same morning you eventually went to the house where this
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shooting took place and you found, you say I found my friends in a pool of blood, they were already dead. Some were badly burnt and it was difficult to identify them. This was because the bodies were quite badly burnt. Now were the bodies burnt beyond recognition that people could not actually identify the bodies? You knew all these people, I assume. Could you identify any of them?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, you could see the others, but you could not really see the others because they were so badly burnt, but, I mean, you could see, I recognised some of the others as people that we stayed with.
DR ALLY: So some you could recognise and some you could not recognise?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: Now I just want to ask you about some other youth who also went missing more or less the same time and we have statements from mothers and other family members. Now, the first person, Matthews Lerutla, was he one of those who was with you, who left with you from Mamelodi?
MR SITHOLE: We called each other on, we knew each other by our nicknames. So, I mean, if you are going to name him on his full names because, I mean, at the time I also had a nickname by Corrie van Zinzo, but, I mean, I was not known as Victor so some of us do not know each other by our real names, but rather by our nicknames. So if you could maybe give me another name I might be able to answer you a bit better.
DR ALLY: No, that is the only name. So you do not know Matthews. You do not know that name Matthews Lerutla?
MR SITHOLE: I do not know this name, but maybe I recognise a nickname.
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DR ALLY: Okay. Samuel Masemela, Masemela.
MR SITHOLE: Masilela.
DR ALLY: Yes.
MR SITHOLE: Yes I know him.
DR ALLY: Was he part of the group that left and was he in the room that evening?
MR SITHOLE: The, he was with the group that left that I still gave petrol to.
DR ALLY: Was he one of the bodies that you recognised in the room that morning?
MR SITHOLE: Excuse me.
DR ALLY: Was he one of the bodies? Did you recognise him in the room that morning?
MR SITHOLE: I would just like to explain to you. I gave Samuel and them petrol on Thursday for the Friday and they left because they were part of the group. So our group remained behind two combis left for KwaNdebele. The one group left, we do not know if they survived or if they are dead. So I would like to make that kind of differentiation that we gave the one group petrol and they left in a Honda Ballade.
DR ALLY: So Samuel was in the second group? He was not in that first group?
MR SITHOLE: He was in the first group that left.
DR ALLY: Bonginkosi Samuel Ledwaba, that name does it, Bonginkosi, does it mean anything to you?
MR SITHOLE: You know, I have got a problem with these names because we use to call each other by nicknames.
DR ALLY: His nickname was Semizintos.
MR SITHOLE: Semizintos.
DR ALLY: Yes.
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MR SITHOLE: Yes.
DR ALLY: That is right, Semizintos. Was he, in which group was he in?
MR SITHOLE: He was in the first group that left.
DR ALLY: So you did not see him after that group left? Was that the last time that you saw him when you ...
MR SITHOLE: They escaped and they got away.
DR ALLY: Was this the group that was supposed to be crossing the border that was going to be going to, was going to cross the border?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, I mean that they left the country. We gave them petrol and they left.
DR ALLY: And you have never heard from him since or about him?
MR SITHOLE: No, I have not heard from them. There are people that do know about them that are still, that know about their whereabouts.
DR ALLY: Just a, four more names. Rakoshos Makena. Rakoshos Makena.
MR SITHOLE: No, once again I have got the problem with the formal names. If it was a nickname it would be better.
DR ALLY: That is fine. Morris Nkabinde.
MR SITHOLE: No.
DR ALLY: No. That is okay, if you do not know, it is fine. It is just that these are in statements of people ...
MR SITHOLE: Alright.
DR ALLY: ... whose children went missing round about the same time. Jeremiah Ntuli?
MR SITHOLE: Jeremiah.
DR ALLY: Okay and then the last one Philip Sinyoni.
MR SITHOLE: No.
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DR ALLY: No, okay and then just lastly a name that has come up often in these statements also is of a Mr and a Mrs Alphane or Alphane. Do you know that name, that they were people who were either escorting these youth or seen around these youth? A Mr and Mrs Alphane. Do you know, does that name mean anything to you, those names?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, I can say that Mrs Alphane, I will not lie, I never saw her, neither did I see Mr Alphane, but I saw their child
DR ALLY: And who were these people, Alphane. Do you know anything about them?
MR SITHOLE: In which sense?
DR ALLY: Anything about them. Their background. I mean how do they fit into the picture? What was there part in all of this? Were they driving one of the cars or were they people who were involved in ...
MR SITHOLE: I can say that Alphane provided the transport to help the people to get out of the country.
DR ALLY: Okay, thanks Victor, I will stop there. Thank you very much.
MR SITHOLE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any other questions. Thomas. Tom.
MR MANTHATA: Can you give us the full names of Solly? You have not given us his surname.
MR SITHOLE: I have a problem with the surnames, but without lying I would say that it was, no, I just cannot get to the surname now, but the name is Solly.
MR MANTHATA: Is it possible that you get us the surname?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: How long had you been with this group that you PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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went to KwaNdebele with from Mamelodi?
MR SITHOLE: A long time, a very long time.
MR MANTHATA: And you were doing the same thing, all of you, as a group?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: And was none of them ever detained?
MR SITHOLE: You mean were we ever detained by the police?
MR MANTHATA: Yes.
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: When the police detained you did they not want to know the names of those who died?
MR SITHOLE: No, they did not want to know. They just hit us. The Warrant Office came and we were being beaten for 24 hours and we bled and bled and our wounds were left as they were and they beat us and released us after two days.
MR MANTHATA: And they did not suspect that you could have been with that group that died?
MR SITHOLE: No, they never.
MR MANTHATA: And you on your own, you could not have reported to this police about the deaths of your Comrade?
MR SITHOLE: I could do that, but I could see that there was nothing I could do about it. I did not have the strength to do anything because we were being oppressed in such a way that if we could see that they needed evidence, we needed to prove what we were saying. We needed to get at least one person and bring that person forward, but, I mean, where am I going to get such a person to come forward and give evidence.
MR MANTHATA: Did you not fear that if they detained you once, twice, thrice for a short period of time like they did, your Comrades would suspect you and if so what would
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you do to counter that suspicion?
MR SITHOLE: You see, I had the strength, because I had influence because even when I spoke and when I was detained and I was, I came back you could see on my body that I was detained and I could show the Comrades that, look, I was detained and they could see that I was from detention. It is not to say that I came back without any harm. I would come back walking a bit crooked and things like, with, showing that I had been assaulted.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you. No further questions.
MR MALAN: I have.
CHAIRPERSON: Wynand Malan.
MR MALAN: Mr Sithole, I just want to get to this question of suspicion. You say in your written statement to us that you were also under suspicion by some of your friends. That you, or, and especially by the parents and some of the people in Mamelodi that you have sold their children out in KwaNdebele. Are there still such suspicions?
MR SITHOLE: I suspected people wanting to know why did this one survive and the others have died and parents would just suspect because they were not present. Wanting to know why did these ones have to die and those ones survive.
MR MALAN: In your written statement you also say that you still suspect your Comrade, Solly, and you also suspect Mr Shabangu. You still suspect them too?
MR SITHOLE: Yes.
MR MALAN: And then that night, Dr Ally referred to that where you say you slept at your girlfriend's house. How did that happen? Was that your girlfriend of a long time? Do you know the area or was it a girl that you met there?
MR SITHOLE: You know the, in the camaraderie, you would go
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around drinking and chanting together and enjoying yourselves together.
MR MALAN: Okay. So it is not your girlfriend, it was a girlfriend. No, that is fine. I am not passing moral judgement on you, really not. Then the last thing is because this really leads to the confusion. In your written statement which, was given under oath, in paragraph six, can you read, did you read this statement again when it was taken from you? Sorry, if I may repeat the question. Did you read the statement before you signed it?
MR SITHOLE: I do not understand what you mean. Do you mean that did I read the paper before?
MR MALAN: You gave us a written statement which one of our statement takers, which a statement taker took off you. Did you read it before you signed it?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, I read it.
MR MALAN: In paragraph six you say that as a result of the attack, the following morning a black woman by the name of Johannah, which you said to Dr Ally was aunty Johannah, who was also employed at Mr Shabangu's supermarket, told ten of us that she is offering us accommodation at her place. Just tell us how did you get to aunty Johannah? I mean, the impression that we had was that she ...
MR SITHOLE: I just want to interject there. You see I said that we went to Sis Johannah's house so the person that wrote down the statement made a mistake by saying that, by giving the impression that she worked at the store.
MR MALAN: Okay. So you did not read the statement after it was taken down by that person? Okay, it is not all that important, but it was very confusing to us. I have no further questions. Thank you.
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CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine.
DR BORAINE: Mr Sithole, I do not want to delay you. You have had a long session with us. Just to try and help us again, you cannot remember the name, Solly's surname, but you say he is still around. Do you know where he is living now?
MR SITHOLE: Yes, I know where he lives at D5 Mamelodi West.
DR BORAINE: Could you repeat that? I did not hear that.
MR SITHOLE: He lives in Mamelodi West at D5.
DR BORAINE: It is not working again. I am not hearing the interpretation.
MR SITHOLE: He lives at Mamelodi West at D5.
DR BORAINE: Yes, it is fine. Thank you very much. The last question that I want to ask is you said in your written statement that, again, ten years after this event took place that you were visited by the police round about January of this year. Did they explain why they were now investigating this case after all this time?
MR SITHOLE: They did say that the, all these, the cases of those days are being reinvestigated by them at Paul Kruger by the Paul Kruger police, but I did not trust in them, but I trust them now because they came with the parents and even if I withdrew they would say that you have got the information, why are you holding back.
DR BORAINE: And when was the last time you saw them or heard anything. There has been no court case, there has been nothing that has followed or has there?
MR SITHOLE: No, they would come and visit me and say that we should go to a certain place and there were photos at the police stations and I did take them where I knew that there was a background and that you would get these things and that PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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at a certain place we lived in this way and it is the other place we lived at in a certain way. Even now they have these photographs of the deceased people and so forth.
DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. As I have said when I was speaking to Mrs Johannah, it is a very painful thing that happened, this incident. Besides the fact that people were killed others were hurt like yourself. You were detained and you would come back walking crookedly because of all your injuries. It is just that it caused a lot of bad blood between the people saying that at places where people use to get along, they no longer get along and we trust that the truth that we are going to try and expose is going to assist in at least where people do not get along, that we could bring about peace. However, we appreciate that you came forward and came to tell us your truth.
MR SITHOLE: If I could prove that this child is alive and bring this child forward, if I could prove to you that this child is alive, you could see that she is lying.
MR MALAN: She has not said her child is dead.
CHAIRPERSON: We will do everything we can. The truth that we are looking for and even if we could establish that as the truth, it is going to be a truth that is going to assist us in seeing who is telling the truth and who not. Is that okay. Okay, thank you very much.
We should have had a break for tea at 11:00. We will take a break until half past 11. Could we, as we normally do in these instances to demonstrate our solidarity, our respect for the people who are giving evidence, please stand in our places until the witnesses leave. Please stand.
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Order please. And please leave the headphones behind. If you take it out it will bite you. If there are any who want to make statements in the foyer, there are statement takers. Thank you.
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