ON RESUMPTION
MS MKHIZE: Mr Ozinsky, welcome. I will as you to stand up so as to take an oath before this Commission.
SAUL OZYNSKI: (Duly sworn, states).
MS MKHIZE: Thank you. Mr Ozynski, I will assist you giving your testimony before the Commission. First of all, please tell us a little bit about yourself.
S OZYNSKI: I think this fits in with what happened to me later. My parents came from Poland, my father's parents got killed by the Nazis, he had left to come to South Africa. I was brought up by him to have an absolute revulsion against any form of racism or Fascism or right-wingism. That's how I grew up. The story really begins there. I don't know if you want me to proceed? Is there anything else you want to know?
MS MKHIZE: If you can switch off, Zodwa, please. Thank you. I will ask you to talk about what you refer here as the unlawful arrest at a demonstration, please.
S OZYNSKI: Okay. I think it goes beyond this, but I think I must give a bit of the background otherwise it won't make sense.
Growing up, as I did in the house that I did, at school I had made friends with a few people, and there were a very small clique of White pupils who were against the Government SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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and we spoke out at school, which in the early Fifties was something quite original. I am not trying to say we were something special. It was just that we were singled out. At the same time I was very interested in music and played in a band. My next-door neighbour happened to be a guy called Manfred Lulovitch, later known as Manfred Mann. We formed a band and played jazz. It is here that I think a lot of things started happening. We were joined in the band and we held similar political views by a Chinese chap, called Lennie Lee, who in those days, Chinese were regarded as Blac or other, and had to live in Soweto or surrounding areas. The group became very good and we had no venues to play, having so-called non-White/Other in our band. But eventually a place was found in Fordsburg, a place called Uncle Joes, and that's where we played. We played with a number of Black musicians and were the first probably White musicians to actually go out and do this. We were, I don't say, we were harassed, but we were photographed and our names taken and generally regarded as - by the people that came around, as being not quite right.
At the same time I had left school and I had gone to university, I was going to do law. My father, having his friends and being of left-wing calibre, got me a job with Jack Levitan, who previously Joe Slovo and Joel Carlson had articled with. I felt very much at home. This was very much what I wanted. I wanted to be a lawyer that dealt with political things and I went out a number of times with Joe Slovo and in fact with Ruth First, on a number of cases, and admired him and this was going to be my profession.
At the same time, playing music at Uncle Joes, this remains important. At this time my first year at
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university, my father and I decided that it would be a good thing to call a meeting of the Congress of Democrats for recruiting purposes at my house, my father's house rather. I was happy about this. I got the few close friends that we had and we were an isolated little group of White people who felt this way. The meeting was held at my house by the Congress of Democrats. I joined and made a donation and did everything else. I can't say whether other people joined or not, I wasn't sure. I was very pleased.
Back to university, Manfred, myself and the band decided we wanted to try our luck in England and we went over duly to England and we were reasonably successful, not the millionaire he is today. After a year there I decided that things weren't working out. I wasn't playing in the band, I wasn't studying law, which I had previously done at Wits properly. I felt I needed to come back and rethink my position in my personal life.
On my arrival in South Africa I had been here probably less than a week, when there was a little note squeezed under my door. I came home one day, working in a factory as I was then with my father, asking me to please report to the Grays. I reported to the Grays. I was made to sit down at a table with lights shining in my face and told that I belonged to a now banned organisation - in the interim of my being in England and coming back to South Africa, the Congress of Democrats got banned. The interrogator, funnily enough, quite apologetically even said that they had lost most of the list of members of the Congress of Democrats, but I was there; do I deny it. I was almost about to say yes, I was frightened, but he said don't bother to answer. He said you were, he showed me my signature and this form. SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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He then said that I should identify people who were the Congress of Democrats by photographs that he was going to show me. Strangely enough, the first photograph he showed me was the man who had addressed the meeting at my house. I naturally wanted to keep this away from my father, to keep it away that the Congress of Democrats was at my house and my father and everybody else would get into trouble. So I lied. I said I joined at a place called Uncle Joes where I was playing in a band. They said immediately, who are the members of your band. I immediately realised I am going to have or not give away people and my story would look bad. Fortunately I was let off the hook. He said you don't have to tell us, we know who they are, Manfred Luvovitch, et cetera, Harold Miller. He said okay, so you joined the Comrade of Democrats, someone shoved a piece of paper in front of your face and you signed. Okay, we will show you some photographs.
They showed me the photographs. I recognised a few people and I denied knowing anybody. I said I just didn't recognise anybody because I wasn't paying particular attention, I was playing in a band. This lasted for about two hours and they let me go. I went home.
Working in a factory again with my wife, about a year, I would say, later, I wrote a letter to the newspaper, the Rand Daily Mail, a political letter. That very same morning that the newspaper appeared, I got a phone call, this time from John Vorster Square - it was much later, it had been relocated - to either be dragged there in front of my boss or to come in voluntarily. I came - I phoned lawyers. There was 90 and 80 day detention at that point, I think. He said he could do nothing for me, I had better just go along.
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I went along to John Vorster Square. I was taken up to an office, pushed down in a seat. My letter was on a cut-out piece of cardboard and it was thrown in my face, and they started saying you Jew bastard, Communist, you told us the story about a band, we know who you are, we know who you are, and you have got to start talking now where you really joined and what happened. I said I refuse to talk and two of them grabbed me and they said "vat hom" (take him). They took me down to a car and put me in the middle between two people and drove off with me. I didn't know where I was going and of course I was terrified. They drove around for about half-an-hour. Eventually we arrived at the Rand Daily Mail to my surprise. They said get out, you go upstairs and get the letter - Lawrence Gander was the editor at that time - and you bring the letter down to us; if Mr Gander won't give you the letter we will take him to court. You had probably written - they believed, they let me know that that letter was probably censored and I had probably written something worse. They wanted to see the original letter.
I got out the car, I went up the stairs and I actually thought of running away, but I had 20 cents in my pocket and I had a wife and child and I didn't even know where to go or what to do. So I went to the newspaper, hoping to get some support there. To my surprise they just asked me what I wanted it for, handed me the letter and said good-bye.
I didn't later realise, probably that the security police, you know, they have got a full-time job, and they must have been probably examining all letters in papers and places like that, and I thought possibly the Rand Daily Mail didn't want their readers to know that letters were being examined, nobody would buy the newspaper or write in any
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more letters if this happened.
I took the letter back to the car. I was driven back to John Vorster Square. They said to me you read this letter, and you bring it back to us Monday, which I duly did. Phoning lawyers, trying to do everything, nobody could do a thing. I brought the letter back and gave it to them. All seemed quiet.
I had worked in a factory at this time. I didn't like what I was doing and I saw an advert for a job at the Institute for Race Relations. I applied for the job, got the job as publications officer and of course, got photographed and followed and whatever happens when you belong to that organisation, which in the late Sixties, early Seventies was you know, one of the few organisations - and there were no other organisations or groups that one could belong to that were actively sort of opposed in a way to the Government.
I had been there for about a year when an advocate - I think it was Unter Haltz, I had better not say names unless I am sure, came rushing in that some priest had got prosecuted in Eastern Cape for belonging to the Institute of Race Relations, having belonged to a banned organisation and that I was in a similar position. I had belonged to the Democrats and now belonged to an organisation that attacked, defended, discussed or criticised the actions of the Government, and I had to leave immediately. I left again, calling on my father for help for money which he didn't have, for me and my family.
I then got a job at a school, as a school teacher. I had done law. The job was Business Economics, I was teaching fairly well and became quite a good teacher.
During the first year of my teaching there was a
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demonstration, I had read to be held by pupils against 22 pupils who had been detained under the Terrorism Act and pupils of Wits University were going to march on John Vorster Square. I wanted to see this.
I went by car to John Vorster Square and there met up with two other of my former friends when I was at the Institute of Race Relations, Peter Randall, Prof Peter Randall as he is now, and Prof John Dugard, and a reporter by the name of Patrick Lawrence. The three of us sat watching the students arrive at John Vorster Square, sit down. They were cordoned off by the police.
Now I don't know what happened, but according to John Dugard, who unfortunately is not present at the time now, I am talking now, said that two people signalled and I got dive-tackled from behind. I fought, I thought I was in a fight, and dragged in with the students. I got pushed with them into John Vorster Square into the cells.
A strange thing happened there which you may be interested in. A lot of people were there, there were 360 students. I tried to keep away from them, I was not part of the march, I was merely watching. So I tried to keep away from them, also for the fact that I think at the time the Government were trying to imply that there were Communists and others behind Wits' students, influencing them and leading them. So I tried to keep away.
The pupils not knowing, people gave me a peppermint and we were joking around, as they do. I realised the seriousness of my position having belonged to the Congress of Democrats, now being in here with them.
I didn't know what would happen. It was peculiar that the next day in the newspaper, what had happened is that the
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police had allowed reporters of Afrikaans newspapers in the cells with the students and others like me. They had written that Wits students were handing out drugs to one another. This is just asides that happened. But the fact is that they did let reporters in to find out information as well. This is the extent that they were going at that point.
I got photographed and fingerprinted and later released. Later it was announced by the Minister of Justice, Mr Piet Pelser that of the 360 30 people were going to be charged. I am going to read an extract from Race Relations here, it is in the Star newspaper, it was on the front page. My name is there:
"Early in July these ...
It says:
" ... 30 of the marchers were to be prosecuted. They are mainly students but a few Ministers of religion, lecturers ..."
I don't recall how many -
"... teachers ..."
There was only one, that was me -
"... and ex-students were included. Early in July these people ..."
We were arrested in May -
"... these people appeared in the magistrate's court facing two very serious charges, under the Riotous Assemblies Act and Criminal Law Amendment Act respectively, and a minor charge of having contravened a municipal
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by-law. The case was adjourned to August 31."
Now the newspapers and everybody else, through my attorney -I got a lawyer - my father had no money. He cashed in what policies he had. I did not allign myself with the 29 other accused. They got free representation, Joel Carlson represented them, the late Ernie Wentzel and Dennis Kuny. I had to keep away from them for a number of reasons. Number one, I didn't want anybody to get the impression that I had led any march or that Wits students were being influenced by Communists or otherwise.
On the other hand I was terrified of my family and disbelieving that I could be charged with leading and being one of the main marchers, when I was an onlooker. So they were proceeding with the malicious prosecution.
My lawyer that I engaged, phoned the security police, the special branch, I mean, the security police the prosecutor, the Attorney-General and finally the Minister of Justice, saying that they knew that I was not in the march, that this was false evidence.
In fact, at the time of my arrest Patrick Lawrence, I was later told, going back, when I was pushed in with the students, went up to a Brig Buys, later who was to appear in the Biko case, and he told him, he said your men have arrested somebody who was not in the march. He looked at Patrick Lawrence and said what man, and he had seen the incident.
Anyhow, my lawyer phoned, contacted, as I said the security police, prosecutor, Attorney-General, right up to Ministerial level. The security police said that they had a photograph of me marching. This was a blatant lie. My
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lawyer even at the time called me and said if you were marching tell me now, because you have had it; the sentence is six years and you are going to get it, tell the truth. Well, I said, I have got three witnesses and I was not marching and this is malicious and it is because I belong to the Congress of Democrats and because of this old history.
This was put to the security police, prosecutor, Attorney-General. They all denied this, of course and went ahead. We then proceeded to get statements from the witnesses. And here's where peculiar things happened that were horrific. Peter Randall, whom I had approached, who was standign with me, said that actually at the time that I got attacked and pushed in, he had turned away and was watching something else and couldn't give evidence for me. Prof John Dugard felt that if he gave evidence, they would question him on the commencement of the march of which he was a witness and he would have to reveal who had talked about and organised a march and I agreed with him, that he had better not appear. That just left me with Patrick Lawrence only as a witness.
Now the lawyer having requested photographs of me marching, did not receive them. I don't think he was entitled to them. He felt really, and he was an excellent lawyer, that things started to look back. I, of course, was going through agony of having to face six years jail, having been recently married only for a few years, having not done anything, and that this connivance between the security police, prosecutors, Attorney-General to Ministerial level, all against me, I had no chance.
We requested photographs of the march. These weren't forthcoming. My last witness Patrick Lawrence, about two
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weeks before the trial, came to me, saying that he had been transferred by the Star to the London office as political correspondent, and this he had waited all his life for this; what should he do. Well, what could I say? I didn't certainly want him to miss the job there, but there went my last witness. I was really in trouble.
In the meantime all the money that my father had saved, policies, one or two that he had, and he had had a heart attack already previous to this, were used up. My lawyer was told by members of the Star that they would fly Patrick Lawrence out, if necessary.
Oh, it was first asked, suggested that he appear to give evidence for me on commission, his giving evidence beforehand and go to London afterwards. I had discussed this with the advocate who was advising the students, the late Ernie Wentzel and they were against him giving evidence before, saying if they have got a phony case against you now, if he gives evidence before, they will really be prepared for when you are coming to court. So it was decided against evidence on commission.
The Star then said that they would fly Patrick Lawrence out from London, if I gave them the exclusive on the story. My lawyer investigated this and found that this was not the case. They did not give any guarantees that they would do so.
Then a really good friend, and I don't want to mention his name, because if this gets into the Press, I believe these people need to be mentioned, Mr David Friedland, a poet offered to pay the fare for Patrick Lawrence to fly him out when my case came up.
Of course the distress my family and I were going
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through, possibly suffering six years jail, I couldn't describe to you. The security police and everybody were continuing to press for this.
As the case drew nearer, Patrick Lawrence went to London. The security police were in touch with the 29 other charged and offered them, as it says here:
"On 15th of August the Attorney-General had announced that he would drop the serious charges if all the accused agreed to plead guilty to the minor one and paid R50,00 admission of guilt."
The security police phoned me and they said I am not included in this, but if I don't plead guilty, they will charge all 29 with the full charges and everybody will get six years jail. So they were blackmailing me into pleading guilty.
I did not know what to do. I spoke to my father and others. At this point we were at our wits end, there was no money, there was no way of me doing anything. My family was distressed, my daughter was traumatised every time there was a knock on the door, the police coming to visit me. You burst out crying. This went on for about five years. I believe she is still affected, so she tells me, for my life.
My lawyer said there is one thing left to try and that was, he phoned the security police. I can't remember who was in charge, and the name sticks in my mind, but I am not going to say it in case I am wrong, and he said okay, you have not produced any photographs, you have blackmailed my client, we are going to the newspapers; you can do what you like, we have got nothing to lose and we are going to tell them that you are blackmailing me against 29 other people to plead guilty, to give me six years jail. We are going to go SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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to the Rand Daily Mail and every other newspaper in this country and release it. They said don't do it, and they said we will phone you back in an hour. They phoned back in an hour and they said we are going to withdraw - don't go to the newspapers, don't do anything, we will withdraw charges against your client.
I got contacted. The 29 others, as it says here, as I will read to you:
"The Attorney-General announced that he will not pursue charges if all the accused agreed to plead guilty to the minor one and pay R50,00 admission of guilt. The charges against one man was dropped. The others decided to pay the fine."
I was the one of whom the charges were dropped. They could hardly charge me when I was not marching. This they knew. They did however insist that I appear in court. My lawyer was nervous and I was doubly nervous, but I went to the court on the day. The others didn't go to court, they paid an admission of guilt, I stood there alone, and the magistrate came in and said on instructions of the prosecutor and the Attorney-General all charges are withdrawn against me.
I came out there terrified, but angry. I wanted to press charges for unlawful detention and arrest and more than that, for malicious prosecution, which I thought I could reveal, connivance between security police, prosecutors, Attorney-General and Mr Piet Pelser. I was advised by all the advocates and others that I would be mad to do this, I had just escaped getting six years jail on a
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phony charge, if I started attacking this Government I would stand no chance at all, I should forget about this. I did. Well, I didn't forget about it, I simply didn't press these charges.
I went away a really angry man. Now the consequences of this were; later that year I got fired. At the end of the matric year, this happened in the middle, I was still teaching matrics. I am not going to mention the names of the people, I'm sorry, from now on. I got fired from my job, again calling for help wherever I could financially, being married and having a child. My father were at his wits' ends. He later had a heart attack, which a year later he died from. I am not saying that he got it purely from this. He had had one before. But certainly the stress of all this was enormous and enormous on all my family and myself.
I later got another job at a really good school. Sorry, before this. I got a job at a school and taught for a year when the day that Achmat Timal got thrown from the window, that very same day when it was reported, the security police phoned my mother to tell her they were coming to fetch me from my house to do the same thing to me. She quickly phoned the school and I got out of the school and dashed home, fetched my wife and went to my parents' house where we waited. Later on that evening we felt it might be a bit of a bluff. My wife had certain papers which she felt valuable to herself and said she was going home to fetch it. When she went home, they weren't bluffing, there they were, and they chased her and followed her everywhere. They didn't arrest her or do anything, they just followed her. Of course, she had gone round to a number of her family and they took names and addresses, until she realised this
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is what they were doing.
She came back to the house. We didn't know what to do. I couldn't go anywhere, I couldn't live with my parents at their house. So we decided at about 10 o'clock to go back to my house. If they were there, they were there; if they weren't, they weren't. So we went back with the fear of what happened to Tamil in my mind. We went back to the house and they weren't there. It was just a scare.
Anyway, this all added up to the aggravation and horror that I was going through. Later - I am talking about this new job at a very good school, which I am not going to mention again, and this was an excellent job. I was doing a really good job when somebody mentioned to the principal of what had happened to me. I got called in and again summarily fired as a Communist or as something, I don't remember exactly. Again, out of a job, no money and looking around.
I finally got a job at Vanguard Books, where strangely enough, I was photographed and chased around again. I am just going to look to see if I have given you everything in sequence. I think that's the end of the story.
MS MKHIZE: Mr Ozynski, thank you very much. If there are any aspects of your experiences which you have left out, I am sure you will have an opportunity of coming back to them.
What I will do now, is ask you just a few questions so as to clarify some aspects of your statement here and then other Commissioners will examine carefully the statement that you have made.
For a start, I will as you to tell the Commissioners the aims of the Congress of Democrats, briefly.
S OZYNSKI: I was very young at the time and my aim concern
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was that it was against the Government. It was an organisation that seemed to be mainly of White people, which wasn't strange. There was an Indian Congress at the time, there was an ANC. I am not a hundred per cent sure, but I have a feeling that my father signed for the ANC for me as well. I can't remember exactly what forms I signed, but when I was interrogated it was put to me about the Congress of Democrats. I think they were very interested in the fact that the liquidator - a nice name for him - had lost a lot of the list of people who belonged to the Congress. I, being an inactive minor figure though - I was - I was one of the few they managed to get hold of and thought I could reveal the rest. But the aims were, as I have said, to oppose this Government, to form a, what I believe I suppose, a non-racial position. Even although it had racially divided itself, but so as I said, had the Indian Congres, and the African National Congress.
MS MKHIZE: Maybe a related question. Can you just tell the Commissioners whether you used peaceful modes of opposing the Government or violent modes or strategies?
S OZYNSKI: We never used a violent move every in my life. The only time I ever used any form of violence is when I was dragged in by these two plainclothes men who I thought were hooligans. I did hit one as hard as I could. That's the only violence I had ever used. I had never used violence. I played in a band, I joined an organisation and that was as far as my political - and race relations, okay, it was a pretty peaceful organisation, fought for freedom with facts and figures, as people used to laugh at it, saying, ja.
MS MKHIZE: Thank you. Also you mention that you had been detained for interrogation by the security police. Can you
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just clarify that for the Commission, as to what exactly was done to you? To explain the interrogation.
S OZYNSKI: Sorry. The first time they pulled me in, they pushed me in a chair and put a light on my face, not unlike the lights that are on me now, a la Hollywood style, and although I could look back and talk on it jokingly now, it was pretty terrifying. There were three of them. They kept asking me questions and not letting me answer, by saying did you join an organisation in 1950 so-and-so and I am standing there, puzzling to say yes or no, and they said don't bother to tell us, here it is. So trying to indicate to me that they knew everything about my life and that you know, that there was no way that I was going to get out of this. The only thing that I could do was - they weren't violent at that stage with me at all. They were just very fierce, determined and very frightening. I might add that a few weeks previous to this, it also seems to happen to me, I can't remember the name of the gentleman who got shoved or whatever outside the Grays, the first step there. So I was in a fairly nervous situation and - but no violence was used against me. Just interrogating me on an on and on, showing me these pictures and urging me to co-operate with them and telling me it was within my interests to co-operate, to co-operate, and tell them. I got out of this by, as I say, by saying I joined playing in a band, which they knew all about. This justified it. Somehow this convinced them that this was so.
The second time I got interrogated was when I wrote a letter to the newspaper. When they picked me up and I reared back, I didn't know what was going to happen and they were altogether changed and were extremely threatening.
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They dragged me down to the car. They didn't ask me to come with them, to go to the Rand Daily Mail to get this letter, dragging me along, pulling me, pushing me, shoving me into the car. I accepted this. I mean, at this point one is just numb, you know, there is nothing I could do.
MS MKHIZE: In terms of food, were you, did you get the food which you considered to be appropriate?
S OZYNSKI: Sorry, I wasn't detained long enough to have meal. No, I was not given anything. Just a number of hours interrogation, there was no food or anything given.
MS MKHIZE: You mentioned circumstances surrounding, what you say here, as an unlawful arrest at demonstration. You simply ran over there. I would ask you to slowly go over it again, so that the Commission can get a sense of what exactly happened, especially circumstances around your arrest. If you can try to recollect. You mentioned that you were with Prof Dugard and Prof Peter Randall. If maybe you can just talk about how you were seated and their appearance and how many were there, what exactly happened. If you can slow down because that is the gist of your statement here.
S OZYNSKI: Sorry, okay, the reason I am rushing is, I believe there is a shortage of time. I will explain now in more detail. I do remember, obviously quite a lot.
I had driven there by car. I parked my car some way away from John Vorster Square and walked over. It was by chance that I met Patrick Lawrence, whom I had known from the Institute of Race Relations, and John Dugard, whom I had known. The three of us stood, together with a number of other onlookers, quite a way, I would say about 20 metres, 30 metres away from students, a lot of whom had seated themselves and were cordoned off by police. So we were a
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distinctly different group. It was not just Patrick Lawrence, Peter Randall, John Dugard and myself. There were a number of other people who watched this. In fact, there were hundreds of people.
We were standing, the three of us together. Arrests were taking place all over. So I accept that Peter Randall was probably looking somewhere else and not seeing me being tackled and shoved in. This was done terribly quickly. I mean I resisted as much as I could. Mainly because I thought I was in a fight. It never occurred to me that all of this was going to happen. I was just being tackled by two long-haired plainclothes men, they were long-haired hooligans. So John Dugard and Patrick Lawrence saw this happening. I was near them, maybe two metres away from each of them. I mean, we weren't standing huddled in a little group, we were next to each other. He immediately went to this Brig Buys and said you have arrested somebody next to me who was not in the march. For myself, I was standing there, I was dive-tackled from behind. I didn't see any signals that Prof Dugard says he saw, I just know I was tackled from behind, and I hit the person who had tackled me, and I was grabbed by another person and being dragged. I then realised I was being dragged towards the students. This made no difference. So I, you know, fought as much as I could, I was in there and once I was in, I was taken over by other policemen and shoved into John Vorster Square's entrance, and was up the stairs, into the cells with the other pupils, students, I mean.
MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much. I will ask other, the Law Commissioners to ask you a few questions. Tom Manthata? Glenda Wildschut? Yasmin Sooka?
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MS SOOKA: Mr Ozynski, who were the other members of the Congress of Democrats?
S OZYNSKI: I have left this out, I didn't know if it was relevant or not. My father was friends with, and I don't know his name, a Mr Ben Turock's father and so Ben Turock was one of them, and the other people I am not terribly aware of. My father, as I said I didn't attend meetings, I wasn't an activist. I joined because of my political sympathies at the time, although I was politically aware, I was interested in music and studying. But I was also interested in the injustice that was happening. But as far as I know my father was great friends with Joe Slovo and a lot of people who were involved, but Ben Torock's name springs to mind. There was a lady, a girl by the name of Kaplan, I can't remember her first name, and a few other people. At my house where the recruiting meeting was held, there was only the person whose name I forget now, he had a bad skin, that's all I remember. But they were all friends of mine. It wasn't a meeting of the Congress of Democrats, it was a meeting of my friends, with a member of the Congress of Democrats attempting to recruit people.
MS SOOKA: Thank you.
MS MKHIZE: Joyce Seroke?
MS SEROKE: You mention this letter which you sent to the Rand Daily Mail, would you just tell us the context of that letter, what was in that letter?
S OZYNSKI: Now this is 26 years ago, I think. I can't remember exactly, but I don't think it was a letter out of the ordinary. It was a letter which was a response to somebody else who had written a racist letter to the Rand Daily Mail and I had decided I would reply to this, and I
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replied. I don't think the Rand Daily Mail would have printed it if it was in any way going to get them in the sort of trouble which it did. Well, it really didn't, it got me into trouble, but the letter was anti-Government and anti the person who wrote the letter. The laws were so strict at that time, with 90 or 180 day detention, I can't remember again, but you know, people were very careful what they wrote and I think the Rand Daily Mail were very careful of what they printed at the time. This may have happened even after Lawrence Gander and Benjamin Pogrom were arrested, I am not sure. So the letter, I don't think was the strongest letter in the world. The security, however, believed that I wrote a much strong letter and that was their decision to drive me to the Rand Daily Mail and demand the original letter, which was handed over.
MS SEROKE: Thank you.
MS MKHIZE: Mr Ozynski, partly the Commission has got to assist the Government in formulating a reparations policy. I would like to ask you to tell us what you are thinking is around what should be done for people whose rights were severely violated in the past.
S OZYNSKI: I have waited for an opportunity to talk about this a little. I won't go on for long on this. I believe you are running late.
I think if there is any importance in the case, and I am leaving out my own personal agonies and the family and everything, and loss of money and the sort of poverty that has existed since then with me and my family ever since. They took away every cent for the defence, loss of jobs and things like that. I think the lesson that must be learnt, I learnt, and which followed with Achmat Timol and Biko,
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was that the independence of the judiciary at times can be a fallacy, and that when a judiciary ceases to be independent, it should be interfered with, and I am distressed to see that the lesson has not been learnt. In my case the Attorney-General, the Minister of Justice, the security police as in all the following cases with Steve Biko, with Achmat Timol and if I might add today, there are people who may shoot five people on a farm and the Judge may turn around and say the case was ill-prepared by the police. To me this is appalling. I don't believe in cases being ill-prepared. There is no such thing as ill-prepared. And if the Government will not interfere in situations where Judges will not act in a way they are supposed to act, this is a derogation of their duty, then the independence of the judiciary, I don't say should be abolished, but there should be some method whereby Judges - I have got to bring another case, even a non-political case, two cases. One of - and I could be accused of having, talking libel here. I am not going to say ...
MS MKHIZE: Can I just stop you there. I don't want you to be interrupted. I have read your statement, you seem to have strong feelings about how the judiciary should maintain its independence.
S OZYNSKI: Yes.
MS SEROKE: Thank you very much. I will ask Yasmin Sooka to formally thank you now.
S OZYNSKI: Right.
MS SOOKA: Mr Ozynski, I think your story is an example of what happened in our country during the early years, especially when people were harassed simply for belonging to different parties. I think your views on the judiciary is
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a topic which is discussed quite frequently by lawyers themselves. I think that there are efforts being made to conform the judiciary. In fact, tomorrow we have a leading human rights lawyer who will be making a submission on how she thinks the judiciary and the legal system should be transformed, to support human rights, no matter who the political party is in Government at the time.
Thank you for your story.
MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.
(APPLAUSE).
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