CHAIRPERSON: Upon starting this hearing, I explained that the hearing we had this morning dealt with the issues between the UDF and the Ama-Afrika conflict and that we did not have any statement covering the aspect on the side of the Ama-Afrika people so during the course of the hearing, we received a request that there was somebody who wished to give the perspective of the Afrika people.
Normally we do not allow that because normally we receive our statements timeously and we are able to give the order of the day as Ms Maya indicated this morning by calling out the names of the witness, but because we feel that it is important for the sake of peace, the peace process, which has already started here in Uitenhage between these two sides, we feel that it is important for this peace process that we as a Commission encourage the peace process and affirm it and hope that is goes forward, so we felt that we should make a concession, even though, strictly speaking we are not supposed to allow this input, if it was not given to us before the time giving, in the form of a statement, but we felt that we should allow it because we would like the peace process that has begun here in Uitenhage to go forward and because of that reason, we are going to give Mandla Nelson Nkoki, who is the chairperson of the PAC branch here, and Fikiswaya Futi, who is the secretary, the opportunity to step forward. They have promised that they will assist us by giving us a picture so that we are able to put it into perspective and to be as brief as possible so that we can proceed with the days business.
I would request that we all keep quiet, like we did this morning, and we will hand over to Rev Xundu who will swear in Nelson Nkoki and there after very briefly lead his evidence in the form of questions from the Commission.
MANDLA NELSON NKOKI: (sworn states)
REV XUNDU: Sir, as the Chairperson has indicated, we would like to welcome you and we are very happy that you are in our midst to give us a perspective so that we can have a complete picture of the events that took place then.
Please tell us what your clan name is?
MR NKOKI: No, unfortunately I am Xiya Laauw. My clan name is Gwashu.
REV XUNDU: Let us now proceed and get down into business. Very briefly, if there is anything that you would like to explain, I would ask you to do so very briefly, as briefly and as precisely as possible?
MR NKOKI: Firstly I would like to say that our coming forward is not to awake sleeping dogs, not to say that we don't want to let sleeping dogs lie, but what has been said here, some of the allegations that have been made here, we would like to come and respond to. What we have come to do is to ensure that the peace that we have established in Uitenhage, and that nobody should disrupt that.
Reverend, the situation in Uitenhage, I have heard being described by comrade Sitoto, so much so that some of the things that he described in a political sense are true, when he said that from 1976 forward, we were all united in the struggle against apartheid, but where things changed and where there was division was after 1985. The reason that caused all this is that some of the things that could of happened did not involve us as individuals, and also ideologically. That caused some of us to stand aside as spectators. While watching from the outside, we used to like standing on the corner of Gwamsa Road at the old Kwanobuhle area. This group called the Afrikaners and we knew ourselves as Africans because we believed in Pan-Afrikanism and also because we had been exposed to the PAC manifesto of 1959. This made us call ourselves Afrikanists.
Things happened here in Uitenhage, including the incident on the 21 March.
REV XUNDU: Excuse me, up until that time, you did not have any name, you were merely Africanists?
MR NKOKI: We had no real name as such, we only met as the Uitenhage residents that knew each other, and fortunately we all lived in the area called Angola, that is the entire area including Mapalo and the other areas.
What happened then was that since we all lived there, there were rumours that we were trying to establish Azapo, whereas that was not our intention because Azapo was already in existence by 1985, in the location. Being lead by comrade Tose and Andile, he has since passed away, but him brother is still here, he is a priest.
There was once a rally held at the stadium, and one of the speakers there was comrake Fikile Nkobose, and he mentioned a clique which lived at the corner of Ngwamsa Road that was trying to establish Azapo, and that rally was on a Sunday afternoon. On the Monday morning after that rally, pamphlets were strewn on the corner where we lived, saying that we were banned from all the corners of Kwanobuhle and they did not want to see us walking around as groups and we laughed at this because we thought, how can we fight with the Boers about banning orders when there are still going to be other Africanists that are going to give us other banning orders so this caused great dissatisfaction and on the following weekend, on the Sunday, when those pamphlets were distributed there was a meeting at Mlwinana where all the structures under the UDF, from the top team, the area committee's, the street committee's and the action committee's, held a meeting there and we met at Malaw Nagase at Mlene Street and we wanted to discuss what this pamphlet has said and a delegation was sent out to me to the men who were in charge on the side of the UDF.
The delegation was led by myself and Dwarf Nkusu and we went to Mlelwana and there we were met by comrade Bihlwa and Stinki and what they said was that there was a problem that seemed to be arising there in Uitenhage. There is a balloon and it seems that this balloon could pop at any moment and it is not good that something like this should happen. Please remember that we all grew up together, we know each other, we have been at school together and we used to fight together at school, so if there should be conflict here, I don't think that there is going to be anyone who is going to submit to the whole process. Abrey said that he understood that but on our side as well that we would try by all means that this balloon should not pop. We then left.
Giving rise to this situation, where there were these allegations, it came from where the SSC was established in Uitenhage in 1982. The SSC was the Service Starving Community and it was established by ex-political prisoners who had come back from the 1976-1977 political era. The SSC was established in 1982 and late in 1983 the UDF was established. The UDF called upon all the structures to be it's affiliated and that it would be like an umbrella, but because the SSC was like a welfare organisation which fed people, Mr Nugashlepro Jones, and Hokie Ndondashe and also Jankie, served in the committee in this SSC and as Africanists, they had a problem to take the SSC at an affiliate of the UDF because the UDF had already expressed that it had adopted freedom charters and that is where the problem started, and these allegations that we were groups living at corners of Wamsa are mere additions to this problem that had been in existence already as I have mentioned, because in that committee, there were people like comrade Sais, who were serving on this SSC.
What happened was that we were there because nothing seemed to have been happening because Abrey and them gave us an assurance that nothing was going to happen. Then on the 13 March, a boy by the name of Lulama who lived at Kwane, came to me. This was in 1986. Lulama from Kwane Street came to me, he came to live there by me. I had a shack at home, and Mr Makosindondo, an ex-political from the SSC came and we were sitting for a few minutes but since the previous day, which had been a Tuesday, and Lulama had come to me and I had drafted a speech for him which he was going to deliver at Mtongeni Street where the school children had asked that all parties should be given an opportunity to state their positions. I then helped Lulama with the speech, he went and delivered the speech and on Wednesday the 13th, he came to sit by me in this shack. At approximately 2pm, when school came out, Mbueseli came to me, he is currently serving a jail sentence, and they came in, he and other comrades, and they asked to see Lulama, and I said to them that Lulama lives at Kwana and I have got a problem that you should come and look for him here at my place, I feel that you should go and wait for him at Kwana Street where he lives.
They then left, but after a few minutes, they came with a group of students who came into our house, and took Lulama and left with him. Then Pilele Dolo came and said to me, look, we can't just leave Lulama to go like that, let us go with them. We went up Palo Street where the other profession was walking up the other road and we got near to Rev Xhaxa's place when there was a road going down towards Neqa where Abrey Spila was because they said that Lulama had taken a gun from the Action Committee that belonged to Stoogo. We then went, and since they couldn't find Abrey, Pilele Dolo was assaulted and loaded into a combi and taken to comrade Gomomo's place at Mabanhle.
REV XUNDU: Excuse me please. I understand the details but I would like you to tell us about the political strategies of the time, because it will help us to see what the cause of the conflict was, and you have already mentioned that the UDF adopted the freedom charter, that is a political stance but what other political strategies inhibited the action which caused the conflict?
MR NKOKI: I don't want us to go on particular events. Very briefly then Reverend, as I had mentioned that by then we had not formed any political party. We were just staying there as people who believed in an Afrikanism and then as far as programs were concerned, we did not have any specific program, except to say that we were busy trying to establish contact to establish Aznio as a youth wing of the Pan-Afrikan congress. The conflict arose while we were busy with that process.
After there were certain developments, we were forced to go and stay in Khayelitsha as early as April. Thanks to the ministers preternal of Uitenhage, we could facilitate peace meetings and the first peace meeting which they facilitated was due to take place at the spectrum hotel on a Saturday, where we had to go back to our homes because after this incident of the 13th, we went to live at Buyele Nogasi's place in Khayelitsha.
When we got to Spectrum, we were surprised to find a note saying that there was no meeting that was going to take place between us and these leaders. We were merely told that we should disband and hence the meeting couldn't take place, though the priests were there to facilitate the meeting. We then left and went to go and stay at our homes until the meeting in May 1986, when our first victim, Vuyele Nogase was killed, and then that was where the feud in Uitenhage started.
REV XUNDU: I would like to ask you on that point, the feud that started in Uitenhage, do you think that that is where policemen took the opportunity to divide the location and fan political fire and conflict between people, in your opinion?
MR NKOKI: Reverend, that is the first thing that I felt that we would like to agree and affirm, is that the Boers thought that they had got people that they could use, yet is was an opportunity for them to fan the situation in Uitenhage and make it worse before this whole situation of the feud.
REV XUNDU: I would like to ask you a question, that I hope you will answer in the same context, and that is, the system wanted to create the impression that is was working with one side, so that it should appear to the people as if these Azapo people, or whatever, were in the police Hippos and were working with the police, so they were trying to aggravate the conflicts?
MR NKOKI: I wouldn't agree with that allegation because I heard them saying so here. For example, when we first got to no.9 Sodwayi Street, there were a lot of hippos and police vans and we were loaded into them and we were taken to Poswa Bottle store where we were also assaulted.
REV XUNDU: We gave the other side an opportunity to present it's evidence, so would you please keep quiet?
MR NKOKI: As I said Reverend, this surprised us a bit that we should hear rumours that we were working with the police, but what I would like to stress the most is that the police, on their part saw this as an opportunity for them to use whoever they thought they could use at the time.
REV XUNDU: You are trying to tell us that they were trying to use individuals and not organisations as such?
MR NKOKI: Yes, we could not point out specific individuals and say that the police were using them, but as an organisation, there was no such thing.
REV XUNDU: When as a organisation, you discovered that you seemed to be drawn into this conflict, did you try, at any of these meetings, to distance yourself from this perception?
MR NKOKI: Yes, we did hold meetings, plenty of meetings amongst ourselves, trying to analyse the situation with the boers. For example, a certain Boer boy by the name of Conradie was mentioned, he once tried to infiltrate our ranks via a group known as the Youth in Progress, that was known in Khayelitsha, but fortunately for us, we were able to detect that timeously and we said to him, sorry, we do not want any assistance from you because the assistance that you try to come with was in the form of food parcels because there were these people that were living at Joksville that were living in the shacks there and we had a progress at the PCC, where we were trying to give these people food, and shops such as Jiva, with people who used to give us food and we used to distribute the food in Joksville, and this is where Conradie tried to get in.
REV XUNDU: Tell us now, the PAC, at head office level, were they aware and were they supportive of your stance and the operations here in Uitenhage?
MR NKOKI: Reverend, the PAC was then a band organisation and it could not openly claim that these were our supporters but I would like to remind you that when you came to Uitenhage, and when we met you at Rosedale, you said that you were sent by comrade Tambo and comrade Mlanbo to investigate our situation here in Uitenhage, so that you could go back to Harare and report to them what was happening. That, I am sure even you got the idea that the PAC knows these people so much so that it's chairman could give you a mandate to go and meet with these people.
REV XUNDU: I wanted to get an idea. Was there support for this entire operation?
MR NKOKI: The PAC, as an organisation, never condoned the feuding here in Uitenhage, I am sure that you can remember that Beni once said in the papers that what happened here in Uitenhage between the Afrika people in the Uitenhage, the PAC does not support.
REV XUNDU: This picture, Mr Chairman, it the one that is thus painted because this is not a court of law, this is merely a picture being painted by the parties and organisations that were involved in the peace making process here in Uitenhage and sketched to us by comrade Mandla in front of us.
Is there anything that you would like to say lastly, before I hand back to the Chairperson?
MR NKOKI: No, there is nothing else that I would like to say, except to say that in this house at large, we as the PAC, now and Ama-Afrika then, we would like to extend our hand of peace once more as we have done before through the people that I have already mentioned and in saying so, I would like to say that people scheming from time to time together with people that they thought we would have been killing each other by today, but because of the fact that we had realised that what we were fighting for all along was not there, and that in this feud, there were no winners and there were no losers, and we are saying that we wish that our coming forward to speak here, is not going to create any more animosity amongst us as the residents of Uitenhage. Thank you very much.
REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Thank you Mr Nkoki, we would like to receive a written statement from you in order for us to be able to include it in our files, but we are not sorry that we have granted you this opportunity to come before us and what surprises us is that there are no witnesses from the Ama-Afrika camps and we hope the it will be an issue that will be addressed. We don't know if it was a collective decision that was taken, but we have not received anything from that side, Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Nkoki.
