CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlupheki Ntshinga would you please go next to Mr Bishop Tiya. Before I pledge the oath, I would like to express that I have known you for quite a long time. I would like you to take an oath, both of you. Firstly, I would like to say that I have known you for quite a long time as I have already said, I have also known you for the businesses as you are a taxi owner. You've been involved for quite a long time with the Taxi Association. Your son whom you have brought up has paid the biggest price when our country was under stress. I am quite certain that although it was very painful for you, and when all this took place, I am quite sure that when you see that we are all liberated presently, you will feel proud about your child who was also part of the struggle, because we know everybody was going to forward and looking forward to this liberation. Your son paid the price and I am sure everybody is part of the people who are being thanked for what has happened. It is a day for which you can celebrate and we hope that for coming here and giving evidence it would be very satisfying for you and you would be consoled for what has happened to you. Mr Ntshinga is also known to me as he is now sitting next to you, he is in a red suit. I also knew him for quite a long time. He always helped and assisted the young and the youth to cross the borders. He was also a herbalist and he used to say the children whom he helped where - his initiates. You'd go across with them and then you would come back alone, with a different lot of children and all this he was doing to be smart for the Boers, so that they do not understand what was happening, because he would pretend as if he was going along with the others and he would pretend as if he was going to get some medicine herbs and would come back with another load. Having taken another group of the recruits across the river. When I was still at Norwood, they used to ask me when I have known you, I always told them that we have been one of the staunch members of the Organisation and you played a very big role in the struggle. We know you were one of the best during that period. I'd like all of you to take an oath at the same time so that we can be able to get you going without having to take you one by one. Please stand up.
MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: (sworn states).
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi to lead the witnesses.
MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I just want to make sure that on the Tiya family side, we would like to know who is giving evidence - is it the mother or father who is going to give evidence, because during our lunch Mrs Tiya stated that although it is Bishop Tiya who has given the statement he preferred that she will take over and give evidence because she is trying to protect her husband who is ill, is that so Mrs Tiya.
MRS TIYA: Yes, it is so.
MR SANDI: Could you please take an oath. Please stand up.
MRS TIYA: (sworn states)
MR SANDI: Mr Ntshinga did you say you would be the first to speak?
MR NTSHINGA: I'm not going to say much because Aga was attending school here, you could see he was deeply involved in politics, he came and stated and told me that he would be leaving - he will skip the country and this was very difficult for me to go and report to the parents because he said he was going to fight for the country. I was a close friend to the family, but at the end I had to give him the information of how he can go and ship. I'm not quite sure how he did ship, it was quite a long time when he left, when I approached the family and gave them this information but I stated that I didn't know his whereabouts, but the father went out, he went to Lesotho, but you could not ...(indistinct) that the ANC members will never tell and give information of the person's whereabouts, this happened also with the Tiya family. After a long time, I was also not aware of what was happening now - we saw him coming at about nine in the evening. I cannot state how, which route he did follow, but I know that he came through the Ngobo route, he took a car from there and he came to my place. I hid the child from the father, I didn't even tell the father that I am keeping his son, I kept him for five years because I knew that this would affect the family, especially the mother because he could have bore a grudge against me. We stayed for quite a long time. At a certain period we realised that he was communicating telephonically with the other Comrades and in Zimbabwe there was another group of Comrades and he stated that he would like to get some money. He was given orders that he could go to Swaziland so that he can get some money from the other Comrades. When he went there he struggled to get the ANC members, but he couldn't get any of them. Everybody was hiding from the police so it was difficult to get them. Most of the time the police would go after you and harass the family to find out where the child or anybody who has gone to but at the end the Aga who was staying with me at the time gave us the information of how he crossed the borders. There was a day when we just found everybody was on edge because the police was surrounding the area at my place. We were told and given orders to lie on our stomachs, we were so shocked and we were in fear because they happened to know that I was hibernating one of the youth who was involved in the struggle. There were Boers amongst the police and then they arrested the child.
MR SANDI: Mr Ntshinga were you also arrested?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, I was also arrested.
MR SANDI: Can you please explain what happened inside the cells?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, I could state what happened to me. I was arrested the same day when Aga was arrested. We found Dangani and Myeki who said I had been a liar for quite a long time so they took me to the - Ngqeleni Police station I was then assaulted by the police, the used rifle butts to assault me and this ear on my right is not working. I was severely beaten up, they kicked me, they would take their rifle and put it through my anus, and they would say they would blow my head because I was a liar. Aga was also assaulted severally and they used to screw his testes and take his genitals and squash them. They alternated amongst themselves and would beat him severely until he lost consciousness. The police was leading all these brutalities was Mr Mtabeni.
MR SANDI: Is he still alive?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, he is in Butterworth. He is the one who is a Station Commander in Butterworth.
MR SANDI: Where you detained in December?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes.
MR SANDI: Were you arrested because it was said you were keeping Aga?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, I stayed over a month in the cells.
MR SANDI: What happened?
MR NTSHINGA: When I stayed there for quite a long time, until they were satisfied that I had given all the evidence that they wanted.
MR SANDI: What happened, how were you released?
MR NTSHINGA: Mr Tsebesa is the one who was campaigning that I should be released.
MR SANDI: Do you mean Mr Tsebesa was he your lawyer?
MR NTSHINGA: No, he wasn't. I would just hear him broadcasting over the radio, all over and stating that I should be released.
MR SANDI: Do you mean this Mr Tsebesa was here in the morning?
MR NTSHINGA: No, I think he is the one who was - who is a lawyer, I'm not quite sure whether he is the same one - the one that was here in the morning.
MR SANDI: Is it the one who was here this morning?
MR NTSHINGA: No, I didn't see him.
MR SANDI: OK. Let's go on and proceed with your evidence Mr Ntshinga. What else did happen to you when you were arrested and detained?
MR NTSHINGA: I can mention one of the most painful things. They used to threaten me and state that they have already killed Aga and they were going to do the same with me. The person who used to say and always threaten me was this police who is now a Commander, a Commission Commander in Ngqeleni. He used to say they don't know why I am still alive, so they were going to kill me also.
MR SANDI: Did you believe it when they said they had killed Aga?
MR NTSHINGA: I didn't care, because I knew why he died. I didn't believe it but at the same time I couldn't turn my back and say I didn't know anything about it.
MR SANDI: How did you know that Aga has died?
MR NTSHINGA: There was another one with a beard, I have forgotten his name. Another policeman who is Ngogo was conversing with the others and he said, there were boys who will go along with Aga and they have killed one of them. So they were all laughing and were very happy, they were rejoicing and celebrating for what they have done. So they said I am the next because I was a big liar.
MR SANDI: Where you in the cells during that time?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, I was.
MR SANDI: Where you there when Aga was buried, during his funeral?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, I was already released so I was able to attend the funeral.
MR SANDI: What took place there?
MR NTSHINGA: I didn't see much what took place, but what I can state is that there were bullets which were shot at the victim, the bullet seemed to have gone through the back of the head right through the forehead. What I know is that he was severely beaten. I also know that they tried to cut his ear and during the time when he was released, they would ask me when he had already died, they would ask me where was he. I couldn't identify where he was. I was under police guard all the time. The police who came very early in the morning was together with Mathafeni and I believed them.
MR SANDI: Did you see when you were arrested because you had been keeping Aga? You were an ANC member since 1963.
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, it is so.
MR SANDI: Did you help with the others who wanted to cross the borders?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, I used to help them very much. They would always ask me about all those who had disappeared. Kangulela was one of them and they would say I was a liar, I know where he is because they believed I was recruiting the youth.
MR SANDI: Is that all that you can say to us?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes.
MR SANDI: When I look at the statement that is presented here, you state what has happened to you and what has happened to Aga?
MR NTSHINGA: Yes, it is so.
MR SANDI: What would you like the Commission to do?
MR NTSHINGA: I don't need much except that the Commission should pay me. ....(tape ends)
