MR ALLY: (tape starts) .... down please. We will continue taking statements, and we certainly hope that we will be able to come back here if not towards the end of this year, then definitely some time next year.
Can I please ask our next witness to come forward. Mr Tshikalange. Good afternoon to you sir, welcome and thank you for coming. Are you following the translation okay, is it coming through?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Yes.
MR ALLY: Thank you, I am going to hand you over to Commissioner Lyster who is going to assist you with your evidence and he is also going to ask you to take the oath. Thank you.
MR LYSTER: Thank you. Good afternoon Mr Tshikalange, can you please stand and take the oath?
RANGOEZI TSHIKALANGE: (sworn states)
MR LYSTER: Before we start, can you just tell us who you have with you there at the table?
MR TSHIKALANGE: I've got the people who are the leaders of the country and they are citizens of Tsififi.
MR LYSTER: Right, we welcome them too, today. Mr Tshikalange, you are going to tell us today about the consequences of your banishment, we understand, we have read your statement. In your statement you have told us that you were a traditional Chief of the Tsififi area and that you
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were banished by one of the previous Presidents of this country to, you were deposed and banished and you were sent to live under house arrest many, many miles from your home and that you struggled in these conditions for many years and that you finally managed to be reinstated in your rightful position.
This deposing and banishment had consequences for you and that really is what you have come to tell us about today. In so telling us about what happened to your family, members of your family, your wife and your children, you can make mention of your - the fact that you were deposed and the fact that you were banished, but that isn't essentially what we are here to listen to today.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission is only allowed to hear evidence of severe human rights violations and gross human rights violations.
And the violations which you suffered took place in the context of your deposing and banning, so if you can just bear that in mind when you are giving us your evidence.
MR TSHIKALANGE: The Chairperson and the Commissioners and everybody who is here, the audience, I am thankful. What led me into being deposed and getting this banishment and some of the consequences that was on the 9th of September 1965.
Personally my father died in July 1963, then I was made the Chief in 1963, December on the 15th. Then I was working in Pretoria, staying in Soswell Hostel. Before I became a king or a Chief, I asked other people as to why Mr Tsowasa was deposed and he was in Natal, why Mr Tsikonelha went to Zeerust.
Those people replied as follows: they said there are
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some people who have authority and power who can put people in power and sometimes remove them and I asked them who are these people and they said this one White man who is using a car, who does it.
I wanted to know, I enquired, I wanted to investigate as to where do they get such rights, how does one get power. That is not the way it should be. As I was still finding out, I realised that there was something written down, they had the powers because it was according to the rules, it was legal, you can put somebody in power and sometimes, as long as he complies with what they wanted.
Then I realised that it was an act which was enacted in 1927, and I realised that the very same act, it was during the time when the Whites arrived here. They went back to London and came back with this Act in 1927 and gave it to the Governor General so that they shall put the Chiefs in rural areas, that led into the situation that I am.
Then I realised that there was no other way other than getting committed that I shall be (indistinct). Fortunately on the 17th of July 1965, when we were at Mbele, there came some letters, some letters arrived, which were written by Mr (indistinct). These letters explained that somebody could just be deposed and they know how they could do that.
The letter that challenged me together with other people was, I am going to read it as follows. The letter reads as follows, it was addressed to the Chief (indistinct).
Firstly I'd like to create, the people who are in Pretoria, they wanted me to address the law which was enacted in Parliament, last session, which gave us the power so that there shouldn't any appeal made when we are going to VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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deal with this. If somebody is going to be very opposed to what we are doing, we are going to send him to prison, where the other people are. Since I am given this power to put anybody in power the people who are in authority have some, are in unity.
This letter is the letter that I received on Friday which was responding to the report that I had given to the people of Ramwoda. They told me that it is the only letter is like for the Minister.
That is what happened, it was so difficult. I'd like you to help me in the secret which is not being given to somebody so that we shall get the laws and rules. We want to contact people like Tshikalange and Maqowe and other people who I've already done a recommendation.
Now I feel that, I hear that some people who are in power in (indistinct) what worries me is that Ngadeni is the son of Maqwesa, now are you not giving a platform for conflict?
According to my views, we wanted Maqwesa to be in power, then he took Ngadeni and took him somewhere where there will be a space. The people who will be creating some conflicts, we are going to give them court order, deposition order.
I'd like to arrive there now, let them write if there is any possibility of us seeing each other and other people who are going to arrive this week. We are going to tell the Chief Commissioner that we are electing this person, we don't want to go for Christmas before we know who is going to have the Chiefship.
This is the whole thing. If you read this, just burn it because this is witchcraft, thank you.
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These letters are six, I am only going to read two. This letter is going to make you feel that if at all you are a leader, you should know how Chiefship is so that one should not just simply be deposed as we are called Chief's orders. I am just going to read two letters now.
MR LYSTER: We would you please to summarise the letters or just give us the gist of the letters to us.
MR TSHIKALANGE: Okay, fine, I am not going to read them, I am just going to read one. I am just going to read one. Mr Chairman, forgive me because I just said that the case took about thirty years, I think thirty minutes is going to be very limited, so I think we are still going to go further, but it means that, you are well aware that in South Africa people depose you, you are only given 300 years to return, that means there is conflict.
The first letter, listen to this, the letter is dated the 12th March 1965. I am writing this letter to you to notify you that where it has worsen.
Since I read that letter it had increased, it is my view to announce that into the point that I am, we have heard about I wipe tears from your eyes. Now that I realised that you gained opulence, you have turned against me, I am on my way to go to the people in authority, who are going to look into this.
If you knew that the stool that is on top of the mountain, is of less importance than the one on the platform, I made you sit where you are. Now when you have a family, you know how much you have at the bank, one of the people, or young brothers or, who could not know how much it hurt.
If you know opulence can just disappear any minute,
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thank you.
After that, the Commission, now that I come before the Commission, I knew that I would get some help. I said it is 30 years without saying this. Now what really worried me was after I had travelled a great deal, there was a time, one day on the 9th of August of 1965, when the Commission of Enquiry who was led by a Chief Commissioner, VNP Leibrandt together with Mr JJSP Stassen and Oliver, Chief of Conventional, that day it was propelled that I was going to be killed.
And I got people who alerted me on that aspect, I didn't go home to sleep, I went to Sebasa. This is confirmed by the letter that was written by the (indistinct) that I was going to be killed. It is right here in the letter, I got this from Pretoria.
It was on the 9th of August 1965 when they wanted to kill me, but then they could not succeed. I ran away from where I was, I went to Dopede, because I kept on moving from one place to another.
When I was at Dopede, I had to go into Pietersburg because the (indistinct) wife had been arrested. When I arrived at Mogewa's place, while I was on the (indistinct), two traffic officers came with Mr Ravela. They had gone through the bus, they asked me as to where I was going.
I told them I was going to Pietersburg, and they asked me to leave so that they shall give me a lift and then I got out of the bus, I alighted and then they gave me a lift.
When I reached Louis Trichardt, I was so surprised it was something to six. This police was driving on the way, said are you (indistinct) Tshikalange, I said yes.
Are you not the one who is being looked for, and then
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I kept quiet and I realised that he had some news. Then he went to the police station, he then opened the door, the back door, then got hold of me, then he grabbed me, so I was made to sleep in a cell before I could consult my lawyer.
The lawyer, whose name was Ritswalda, I told him that I was getting to the cell. Then I slept there. They came early in the morning, something to six, they took me back to Sebasa, that was when I had already been arrested and I was being returned to the cell.
When they told me that, they made me to write down a statement and there was some other people who had been bribed by somebody who knew that the people had taken my file.
Those people said we were asked to kill you, they gave me the names of those people. They said we were told that we should kill you, but we are not going to kill you.
As I was seated there in the cell, somebody arrived. A policeman who is now in the security services (indistinct). He opened the door and said to the people, listen you people, this is Mr Tshikalange, he is the Chief.
And those people said to me look Mr Tshikalange, that person is saying you don't have to make a noise, he is saying we don't know you. Can you now realise that we were told to kill you?
Those people were M.C. Botha, Mabasa, Josef Machari, William Tsesikure, Thomas Raninal. Those are the people who really saved me that day.
Now, when I had been taken from Louis Trichardt by this, the ones I mentioned earlier, I was just been taken back again to the police station. I resisted to be locked into the cell, I wanted du Preez. I told Mr du Preez that VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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I wanted to tell him something, because we want him, I want to see him, because I hear of him.
When I approached, he told me, oh, you are so young and I said, yes, I was very young then. I said, it was me. They said okay take him to the Station Commander. When I went to Visah, Visah said we've got something for you. We understand they want to kill you.
Then he said okay take him and lock him in the cell. If he dies, then we will accountable for his corpse. Then I realised that it was in line with what was said and those people was from the Station Commander.
That is what I want from the Commission to investigate. In saying that about the Act which says the Governor General has power to put somebody in power and remove and I did say I wrote to the (indistinct) in 1964. In so saying that only led me to jail, that is what I want the Commission to investigate, because I was innocent.
As I am saying in accordance to the Act which says we want people to sit down and talk, we want them to sit down and talk and discuss. There are a lot of things that one could say.
The Black Administration Act in 1947 says if we look at the way how homelands were created, there are certain areas especially when they are creating towns, where Black people who are six in one area, when six people can stay very normal. If you look at how we're living around, we are so crowded, three this side, three the other side.
The living itself is not so big. It is equal to what the White man has. We want to talk before the (indistinct) were removed from here, we want equality in land.
That is one big issue that I was facing with the
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Government at that time, besides the (indistinct). If there are some questions, I would require you as Commissioners to ask, thank you.
MR ALLY: Thank you. Before I ask Commissioner Lyster maybe to go through some of your testimony. I just want to reassure you Mr Tshikalange, that we have all those documents, you did give us copies and we are looking at them and that your documents do help us to put, to have a broader picture and a broader context in which gross human rights violations were taking place.
The issues that you speak about of deposing traditional leaders and hand picking and putting people who were more sympathetic through the apartheid Government then, but as the Commissioner has said, what we really want to focus on, is the consequences of that policy.
We will be writing about those policies in our report, but in this hearings we really want to bring out so that people can actually see the harm that those policies did and how they ruined peoples' lives and in your statement you go through some of those things particularly with your wife and your child, but I will now hand over to the Commissioner to go through those issues.
MR LYSTER: Mr Tshikalange, the area in which you lived, in which you were a Chief, was this area here where we are presently and I understand from your statement that you were deported to Kuruman in the Northern Cape is that correct?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Yes. Where I stay is Tsififi, when I was there I am just normally a Headman by way of saying, but I was not the rightful Chief.
I am the fourth person, that is not the big issue, because we've got a family tree and the history, that is
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what the Government should look into and investigate that some people were denied their rights and what worried me really was that the White people, some of the White people are senior members in the Government now, these are the ones who tortured me. I am not going to arrest anybody.
Even if the Bible there is nothing saying that I have to forgive in the Bible, if you see three times you are to be judged, there is nowhere were it is written that one has to forgive three times or so, in the Bible.
MR LYSTER: Statement that you were banished in June 1969 to the Northern Cape which is many thousands of kilometres, many hundreds of kilometres from here and that you were restricted to a very isolated farm. You weren't allowed to have contact with any local people except for the local police and that your wife and the child that she was carrying, died at that place, that you weren't allowed to have easy access to proper medical and hospital facilities and as a result, your wife and your child died, is that right?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Yes, it is true.
MR LYSTER: And then after many years, after five years the banishment order was lifted in 1974 and it was replaced the same day with a banning order which prevented you from having contact with - how in fact did it work? What did the banning order mean, did it mean that you could not communicate with more than one or two people at a time, or did it restrict you to a certain area? Perhaps you can just give us a brief explanation of what the banning order meant?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Yes, these people gave me this banning order and told me that there was a letter which was written by the file, saying that I am not expected to have three
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people, I am not supposed to go to church or to the funeral.
And again whilst I am at home, I am not allowed to go to Louis Trichardt, I couldn't even go to any other place ten kilometre beyond my house, while I was at (indistinct)
I had to go to the Commissioner to get permission. Even if the child was sick. What is surprising is that when you are sick at home, you are also allowed to stay at home and bear children, now these people die whilst you are looking at them.
MR LYSTER: Is that due to the banning and curfew restrictions that were placed upon you, you lost another child Emmanuel Tshikalange - he was only one year old. He was ill and you could not take him to hospital because of the curfew restrictions on you and that he died as a result of that, is that correct?
MR TSHIKALANGE: The child died right in the house. That was when I was in the bush in the Northern Cape. I didn't know that these people were sending me there. If they had sentenced me to jail, there is breakfast, you bath, there is all those facilities, but the jail, the cell they took me, if you were to go now, I don't want to go there, if you are sentenced in jail yourself, that things do happen.
They only give you R3-00 for food, they only tell you that the ANC people and the (indistinct) people who will give you money, but they only give you R3-00 a month.
Now, you only die of sickness. Even then, she died when I was watching.
MR LYSTER: You say that the banning order and the house arrest order on you were lifted in October 1976 and that thereafter you were restored as Headmen in the Tsififi area and this was after the recommendations which were made by
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the Moswaswa Commission of Enquiry, is that right?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Well, not entirely true. As I am referring you to this people who are the king's people, they are going to give a statement, some of the people did really fought to make me go back.
If these people really struggled and say they wanted their Headmen and now as I am restored, the Commission after having given recommendation, the year expired before they could even explain to me that I was ... it is not through the leadership of Ramaswana, that is why I am here.
This people who belonged to my area, they are the ones. I wasn't restored, the people themselves really struggled. That is why I am made the Headman.
MR LYSTER: Just tell us briefly, you haven't really informed us, what was the, as you understand, as the reason for your banishment and your banning and your house arrest, what was the reason? We know who did it, you said it was done in terms of the Black Administration Act of 1927 and the people involved were MC Botha, who was Minister of Bantu Administration as it was then called and the Chief Commissioner for the Northern Transvaal, Mr Leibrandt, but what was their reason for doing this, for banning you to an area in the Northern Cape?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Okay, fine, we are talking about this thing, we are rushing these matters otherwise, these people, it was due to the fact that at Humpaphule there was a Headman called Taramepha. He died later and the other one succeeded him who was just in the place of Mr (indistinct).
This Taramepha that I mentioned, the ones who made recommendations said that he shall be the one and Taramepha was expelled and had to get to the (indistinct).
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I realised that there are really some copies. They made copies, petition, wrote to Prime Minister Verwoerd and the (indistinct) that there shall be some recorrection because the people themselves did not do that, (indistinct). Dr (indistinct) was the one who was responsible.
That is why on the 9th of August 1965 when the Commissioner of Enquiry led by Reverend, they asked for minutes to confirm that Taramepha was expelled. If they think Taramepha is mad, the only people who are, they are the ones who are to say he is mad otherwise somebody could have been put there, who was a rightful person.
That is why I am saying at Humpaphule there is no more than 10 Chiefs, who can say that the Chiefship belonged to ... these people bought Chiefship from (indistinct). That is why I didn't get support from the people who are now leading.
The people who did that just bought this Chiefship and I've got documents here how they bribed, how they bought Chiefship.
MR LYSTER: You also mentioned in your statement that your banishment and your deposing caused you severe depression over a period of years, it also removed you from the place where you rightfully should have been and you were not able to promote and encourage development in the area as a result not only you and your family suffer, but the people in the area suffered and we understand that. We are very pleased to know that you are back now in that area as a Headman.
The copies of those documents, Dr Ally says that he believes that we do have copies of everything that you have there in front of you and we will in fact, staff at our
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Johannesburg office are already going through that, those documents in order to ascertain exactly how it came about that you suffered in the way that you did. What, the people that were responsible and we will be looking at that over the next weeks and months to come.
But you have given us very clear summary of what happened to you, the consequences of your banishment and we are very grateful that you have come in and given us that information.
I am going to ask the Chairman now whether he has any questions that he would like to ask.
MR MANTHATA: Don't answer it if it is an unclear question. You seem to be angered by enlarge to see the people who arrested you, still being in a position of power. How do you see that being remedied?
MR TSHIKALANGE: Well, I am thankful, well there are certain things that cannot be restored, other than being put right. You can imagine when (indistinct) addressed Kaunda and said he didn't want to hold a meeting with him, because apartheid cannot be addressed.
If I am ... (tape starts) ... I am going to give it to you, but I am going to write as schools go properly and eight class rooms and five pre-schools, thank you.
MR MANTHATA: Well, we can then talk of reconciliation, because now it is taboo in Tsivemba, if I told somebody had sent you about the cattle which broke and went to the fields and asked for forgiveness for the cattle, do you think you can just go literally out of that place, because that is why I am saying, the guilt that happened over about 300 years, one it is unforgivable.
If I talk to you and say you slept in midlands, zone 5
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in that block which is in (indistinct), now that has to be corrected, but how we are going to break through all these things, because somebody built 700 000 house, who is going to buy that house which is so costly?
I am not in particular talking about the Tsififi area, but the only way we are going to discuss these things, I am going, these people who died, the Prime Ministers and Cabinet, they do have a lot of money in that bank. We are going to take that very same money, we are going to withdraw that money and to (indistinct) those things. Thank you.
MR MANTHATA: Mr Tshikalange, thank you, no further questions.
MR ALLY: Mr Tshikalange, thanks, I must say thank you to you because I know that there is a lot of things that you want to speak about and that you did suffer quite a lot as a result of the policies of that former apartheid Government.
You've given us quite a lot of your files and your letters and your correspondence with the different departments and the bad way in which they treated you. If you have any more files, we'd really appreciate you giving it to us and I want to thank you for confining yourself to 30 minute. I know you had a lot to speak about.
And certainly the issues that you speak about, concerning yourself and your family and what you suffered, that is very important for us to hear and you also make recommendations in your statement about the village in particular, that there is a need for compensation and you know that there is a Committee that is looking at those issues, the Reparations and Rehabilitations Committee on which Mr Manthata serves, and they have to make
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recommendations to the President.
I am sure Mr Manthata as well as other members of the Commission listening to what you were saying and that the consequences of the apartheid system, the policies, the harm it did, I am sure that the new Government must realise that there is a moral responsibility to look at those issues and to try and redress all those ills, all the harm, but thank you very much for being so considerate, because you know that we have got other witnesses and I know that we cannot cover 300 years in 30 minutes, but thank you for confining yourself to 30 minutes. Thank you very much sir.
MR TSHIKALANGE: What, something that I want to say is there has to be a committee to come and investigate on the field and the bush, if they send the committee, that's when I am going to present the documents.
If the representative from London must carry this bag from London.
