Special Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, let's get ready to start. Once again we welcome everybody to this hearing on the Chemical and Biological Warfare programme, as it has been popularly or notoriously called. We were taking the evidence of General Knobel, and as I understand the position, we are further going to take the evidence of Dr Wouter Basson and Dr Mijburgh. There was an indication that an application was going to be made to the High Court by legal representatives representing certainly Dr Wouter Basson, and that we would have received court papers by now in which Dr Wouter Basson's confidence to testify in these proceedings would be placed in issue in view of the fact that he still has to appear on criminal charges in the foreseeable future. I do not know what the position is, Mr Vally, how you intend to proceed.

I may just observe in passing that there was a newspaper account of an interview of Dr Wouter Basson which purported to have appeared in Punt Geselsradio, in which he seems to have given a fair amount of testimony about his goings on in the period under consideration by this Commission, and I'm stating that because it seems he's prepared to talk to Punt Geselsradio, if that report is true, and he is ready to come and talk to us. But I don't want to jump the gun.

Mr Vally can you indicate to us what the position is, and then maybe the legal representatives of Dr Wouter Basson if they're here will put us in some position to understand what is going on. Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, for the record I want to put the following things - bring the following things to the attention of the panel.

On the 8th of June 1998 we were advised that Dr Basson wished to make a legal challenge to the ruling that he has to give evidence before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He was called to give testimony on the 9th of June 1998 and argument was led, and a ruling was made by the panel on the 12th of June 1998, turning down the application of Dr Basson. After the ruling was given, Advocate Cilliers, counsel for Dr Basson, indicated on the record that a court application on behalf of Dr Basson, at that stage possibly Dr Mijburgh as well, would be prepared within a few days. On the 15th of June we were advised telephonically that Dr Basson and Dr Mijburgh would not be prepared to testify at the reconvened hearing and that they were in the process of finalising their applications. We were advised that the applications would be served on us by no later than Thursday 18 June 1998.

On the 17th of June 1998 we were advised in writing that they were not in a position - this is - sorry, correspondence with the attorneys, Adolph Malan, of Dr Basson, we were advised that they were not in a position to let us have papers formally by Thursday 18 June, as they were still busy finalising the papers. We then got an indication that we would receive the final papers by close of business on Friday the 19th of June. Between the 17th and 18th of June we also were advised that Dr Mijburgh would be prepared to testify and that the legal challenge would only be brought on behalf of Dr Basson. On the 19th of June we received a fax which advised us that Mr Malan was in Harare at the time and he apologised for not sending us a draft application, he would enquire about this from Carelson and would revert to us. We asked for the application to be served on us by no later than Monday the 22nd of June.

On the 22nd of June we received a telefax which said they would keep us informed as to the progress of the application. Eventually - I'm just cutting through - we had dealings with them right through, on the 23rd of June, etc. At some point we received draft papers. We received initially just a draft founding affidavit on the 24th of June, thereafter on the 29th of June we received a draft notice of motion and draft founding affidavit, neither of which were attested to or issued by any court. To date we have not received any formal application.

Now, we have said in our letter on the 1st of July 1998 that should we not receive any application by the start of the hearing, then we expect Dr Wouter Basson to be present here at this hearing. We repeated this in a letter dated the 3rd of July 1998 and subsequently as late as the 6th of July 1998 we again pointed out, and I quote from our letter -

"Finally we wish to point out that we still have not received the duly issued application on behalf of Dr Basson. From your correspondence it seems that we should receive this shortly, but we would once again state if we have not received it prior to the commencement of the hearing tomorrow, we will require Dr Basson to be in attendance at the hearing from 09h00 on the 7th of July 1998. If a booking is required for Dr Basson please contact us at your earliest convenience."

Clearly we have not received any application, we've been told for a long time it's imminent. We have, both at the last hearing and after the ruling by the Commission, requested Dr Wouter Basson's presence here.

I would ask the panel to formally call Dr Wouter Basson and thereafter we can take any steps necessary if Dr Basson does not accede to our request that he appear before this panel of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware - is Dr Wouter Basson represented by any of legal counsel here today?

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you, Chairperson, I am one of the persons appearing on behalf of Dr Basson, and perhaps at this stage I could say the following in terms of the drafting of the application and the negotiations between Mr Chaskalson and Mr Vally, I was not at all involved in that, and I also wasn't involved in the drafting of the application. My colleague, Mr Cilliers is also appearing on behalf of Mr Basson, is also present here -I see he's not present at the moment. He dealt with that aspect, and as far as I know he also had talks with Mr Vally and Mr Chaskalson via my attorney, Mr Malan. I'm not in a position at this stage to answer, irrespective of what Mr Vally has now put on record since I wasn't involved in those discussions.

As far as I understand my attorney, Mr Malan, is currently at Silberbauers Attorneys in Cape Town, they're the correspondent attorneys and it is my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, that the application was filed yesterday, but that is second-hand information and I can't vouch for that.

Apart from the fact that I also appear on behalf of Mr Basson I am specifically here today to assist Mr Mijburgh in testifying and I would request that if these aspects should be taken further, that as soon as Mr Cilliers is available, and he is present, I'm assuming that he is probably also at the Attorneys at the moment, that the matter regarding Dr Basson then be dealt with later with my colleague, I don't have any specific instructions regarding the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, do you have anything to say to what Mr van Zyl has said?

MR VALLY: Clearly Mr van Zyl doesn't have any information which can help us, he's speculating. I would ask that the panel formally call Dr Wouter Basson for the record and then we can take whatever steps necessary thereafter, but I think it's important to do so so that we can apply the law in the instance of Dr Wouter Basson's absence if he is indeed absent.

MR VAN ZYL: If I could perhaps say at this stage, as I indicated, Mr Cilliers and my attorney, Mr Malan dealt with the matter and I understand from Mr Vally that he is requesting that Mr Basson be called immediately and then to take the necessary steps, but I would like to suggest once again that the matter perhaps be taken up once Mr Cilliers is available here because he knows what the position is and what arrangements have been made. In the circumstances I would like to suggest that it is fair that the position be clarified with Mr Cilliers, he might have facts which I don't have at my disposal and that we at this stage continue with the evidence of Mr Mijburgh, and that when Mr Cilliers becomes available, then that matter in relation to Mr Basson be taken further. I am not in a position to place any facts on record in respect of the application, the filing of the application and in those circumstances it would be only fair for the situation to be clarified with Mr Cilliers by the panel, and that he should explain to you what the facts are, then you would be in a far better position to make a proper judgement.

In these circumstances I would like to request that the matter in respect of Mr Basson stand down until later in the day, until Mr Cilliers is present, and that we continue with the evidence of Mr Mijburgh.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van Zyl, I appreciate all your efforts to really endeavour to represent Dr Wouter Basson's interests in a situation where you have not been dealing with those issues that have caused delays in the application to court as well as the circumstances surrounding there. My own impression, and I must state it is a very prima facie impression, I would stand to be persuaded, is that we are being treated with the utmost contempt by Dr Wouter Basson, but then that's a very prima facie impression.

It is also my impression that if there was any endeavour to treat this panel and the Commission with the respect that I hold they deserve, legal representatives of Dr Wouter Basson would be here to make the explanations that you so endeavour to make. It's not about whether there is evidence that can be called, it is about whether officers of the court who know their responsibility to this Commission in the same way as they have a responsibility to their clients are here at the time appointed for the resumption of these proceedings. They are not here, neither is their client. It's a matter of grave concern. I just want to note that and place it on record.

I think Mr Vally's application is validly made and it shall be granted, and Mr Vally if there is anybody here who would go and call Dr Wouter Basson's name outside there three times, I would stand that that should be done.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you, Chairperson. I take note of the remarks which you've made. Once again I'd to place it on record that, as you've said, your approach is a prima facie one regarding the position of Dr Basson and your other remarks as well. I would just like to state that it is my submission that you would probably be in a better position to take a view as to this matter once you've been fully briefed. As far as the presence of Mr Cilliers is concerned, as I understood the arrangement today, was that we would immediately proceed with Dr Mijburgh's evidence. I did not foresee that the issue of Dr Basson would be immediately taken up. As I indicated earlier, I wasn't involved in any of the correspondence or arrangements in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, we appreciate you have made those points and they are on record, and I exonerate you totally from all sorts of blame, but those who were dealing with Mr Vally, Mr Adolph Malan and an advocate who may have been instructed in that connection, they at least owe this Commission and panel their presence here. As far - if Mr Vally's submissions are correct then they will be subject to contestation by the other lawyers, but if on the basis of what he has said, there was a fax yesterday re-emphasising the need for Dr Wouter Basson to be here at 09h00 today in view of the fact that now application has been submitted as had been promised, then we hold that in a very serious light. But then as I say, subject to whatever submissions they may make subsequently, we may be persuaded otherwise, but at this stage I personally, and I think I speak on behalf of the panel as well, I'm taking the strongest exception to this type of treatment from colleagues. Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Chair, for the record we have called out Dr Wouter Basson's name three times outside the hearing room and there has been no response.

CHAIRPERSON: Subject to whatever submissions may be made by Dr Wouter Basson's lawyers on his behalf it is my impression and certainly the view, I believe, of this panel that there has been a contravention of Section 39 of our Act and that that is the present view of this panel. As I say, subject to whatever submissions may be made on his behalf later on. Mr Vally is there anything further that we should do?

MR VALLY: Not at this stage regarding Dr Basson, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we go on?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, we were busy with General Knobel's evidence, but we are standing General Knobel down to start with Dr Mijburgh. I would suggest that we put all the attorneys present on record as to who they represent, and then we can commence with Dr Mijburgh.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Vally. Mr van Zyl, you are already on record.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR TOWEEL: Mr Chairperson, C R Toweel, instructed by Du Plessis attorneys, acting on behalf of General Knobel.

CHAIRPERSON: You are already on record as far as I believe, Mr Du Plessis as well. You are certainly not going on record now.

MS REYNOLDS: Kate Reynolds on behalf of Brian Currin for Jan Lourens.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are on record as far as I also remember from the last time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Dr Mijburgh, you are reminded that you are still under oath.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, just for the record, advocate Norman Arendse has indicated he will be coming, he's slightly delayed. And again for the record as regards proliferation issues, we will hold back using certain documents provided to us by General Knobel, pending discussion with Advocate Arendse on those documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is going to look after the interest of those Mr Arendse represents? I'm just asking for the record.

MR VALLY: I do not know, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mike Kennedy will have to act as a lawyer in the circumstance and step into the breach. Well raise your hand, Mr Mike Kennedy if you feel that we are veering into an area we shouldn't. Mr Vally, if we could proceed.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair. For the record I want to first ask - or maybe I should put this on record, I have arranged with my learned friend that Section 31(3) of our Act, Act 34 of 1995 applies and I'll read it into the record,

"Any incriminating answer or information obtained or incriminating evidence directly or indirectly derived from a questioning in terms of sub-section 1..."

this is questioning at a hearing of this kind,

"...shall not be admissible as evidence against a person concerned in criminal proceedings in a court of law or before anybody or institution established by or under any law, provided that incriminating evidence arising from such questioning shall be admissible in criminal proceedings where the person is arraigned on a charge of perjury or a charge contemplated in terms of Section 39(d)(ii) of this Act, or in terms of Section 319(3) of the Criminal Procedure Act, no 56 of 1955."

So for the record, this would apply to Dr Mijburgh.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair. Before I start, Dr Mijburgh, do you wish to make a statement which you wish to read into the record?

DR MIJBURGH: No thank you, sir.

MR VALLY: Chair, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was that reply was that you don't have any statement you would like to read into the record?

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, let me put this on record, there is no pre-prepared statement which my client wants to read out, he's simply here to answer questions, there's no prepared statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van Zyl.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, maybe we should swear Dr Mijburgh in.

CHAIRPERSON: He has been sworn in.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, as I understand it also he is still under oath.

CHAIRPERSON: I reminded him that he is still under oath.

DR MIJBURGH: (s.u.o.)

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair. Dr Mijburgh, what are your formal qualifications?

DR MIJBURGH: I have a degree in medicine from the University of Pretoria and a B.Com from Unisa.

MR VALLY: So in effect, you are a medical doctor with an accounting degree as well?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you have any special qualifications in the area of chemistry?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: In the area of biology?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Can you briefly tell us when you were a member of the Special Operations team in Special Forces in the South African Defence Force?

DR MIJBURGH: Could you please repeat the question?

MR VALLY: Okay, were a member of the Special Operations team in Special Forces?

DR MIJBURGH: Mr Vally, I'm not aware of a Special Operations team, there was a medical section at Special Forces or a medical division of which I was a part and a member. The Special Operations terminology is not known to me.

MR VALLY: Fair enough, when was this?

DR MIJBURGH: 1982 to '84.

MR VALLY: Now this special medical detachment of Special Forces, this was later constituted into the 7th Medical Battalion, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: At the time when you were in Special Forces as the medical doctor, did you participate in Special Forces operations?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: What was your role?

DR MIJBURGH: I was a medical officer, I gave medical support services, often at these Special Forces bases, such as Phalaborwa in the hospital section, and also head office, Special Head Office quarters in Pretoria.

MR VALLY: So you did not participate in any operations whatsoever of the Special Forces?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I was not a qualified Special Forces operative.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your way of saying you did not?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, that's right.

MR VALLY: Was your Officer Commanding in this medical unit at Special Forces Dr Wouter Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes it was Dr Wouter Basson and I think Dr Wynand Swanepoel at some stage when Dr Wouter Basson went on a course.

MR VALLY: And Dr Wynand Swanepoel is the dentist who later became Managing Director of Roodeplaat Research Laboratories?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And when the Seventh Battalion was formed, Dr Wouter Basson was the Officer Commanding of the Seventh Battalion?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so. When the Seventh Medical Battalion was established I was only a civil force member. I think he was in that position, yes.

MR VALLY: Regarding other doctors in Special Operations, was there a Dr Chris Blunden there?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Was there a Dr Gerrie Odendal?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Dr Deon Erasmus?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Dr Hennie Bester?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Dr Ben Steyn?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you've mentioned Dr Wynand Swanepoel. Are you aware of Block C, which is located I believe at Military Headquarters or close to Military Headquarters?

DR MIJBURGH: It was a laboratory at Special Forces Head Office at Voortrekkerhoogte.

MR VALLY: Were you involved in any work at Block C?

DR MIJBURGH: Not personally, but Delta-G produced some substance whilst the plant was being built at Midrand.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that Block C was in operation before the establishment of Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: But you were working for Special Forces at the time?

DR MIJBURGH: That's right.

MR VALLY: So you're not aware of what happened at Block C?

DR MIJBURGH: No, apart from what Delta-G did there.

MR VALLY: And what did you hear about what happened at Block C from other doctors, it was part of the Special Operations unit?

DR MIJBURGH: Not was far as I know.

MR VALLY: Well, we'll come back to that at a later stage. When did you leave Special Forces?

DR MIJBURGH: I was never a member of Special Forces, I was a member of the South African Medical Services and I resigned in 1985.

MR VALLY: And when you resigned in 1985 where did you go?

DR MIJBURGH: I was then appointed as Managing Director at Delta-G Scientific.

MR VALLY: And are you aware that Delta-G Scientific was a military front company at the time?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now these doctors, these other doctors I've mentioned, we know Dr Wynand Swanepoel was also in a military front company which was RRL, do you confirm that?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And Dr Ben Steyn?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm not aware that Dr Steyn was ever involved in any front company.

MR VALLY: Are you aware at some stage - well, let me ask you about Project Coast, are you aware of Project Coast?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Who was the project manager?

DR MIJBURGH: Dr Wouter Basson was the project officer.

MR VALLY: And the project manager?

DR MIJBURGH: I assume he was the project manager and the whole project fell under the Surgeon-General.

MR VALLY: I think it's the other way around - the project manager was the Surgeon-General, I think the project officer was Dr Basson, would you accept that.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, that's fine by me.

MR VALLY: And are you aware that Dr Ben Steyn took over as project officer of Project Coast from Dr Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: So if he took over as project officer then he was involved in some of the military front companies?

DR MIJBURGH: Not as a member of a front company as far as I know.

MR VALLY: Fine. Dr Hennie Bester, can you tell us if he was involved in any of the military front companies?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm not aware that he was involved in any front companies.

MR VALLY: Dr Deon Erasmus?

DR MIJBURGH: Dr Erasmus was employed at Infladel, which is one of the front companies. What exactly his involved was I don't know.

MR VALLY: Dr Gerrie Odendal?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know what his involvement was in front companies, or that he was so involved?

MR VALLY: Dr Chris Blunden?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm not aware that he was involved in any front companies.

MR VALLY: You say you left in 1985 and you were appointed the Managing Director of Delta-G Scientific - Delta-G, what company were you first involved with, I just need clarity on that because we have a myriad of companies and I'm trying to place you? Which company did you first get involved in after you left SAMS, South African Medical Services?

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G Scientific.

MR VALLY: Were you not first involved in Medchem Consolidated Investments?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did you not become a director of Medchem Consolidated Investments on the 26th of January 1989?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, that's very possible. Medchem was established much later than Delta-G Scientific, well the company was bought much later.

MR VALLY: And wasn't Dr Willie Basson the first Managing Director of Delta-G Scientific?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, that's correct.

MR VALLY: So when you worked for Delta-G Scientific, you're saying you were not the Managing Director?

DR MIJBURGH: I was the Managing Director.

MR VALLY: At which stage?

DR MIJBURGH: From '85, May '85.

MR VALLY: Because according to my information you took over as Managing Director from Dr Willie Basson, are you aware of that?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, I was appointed after Dr Basson had resigned.

MR VALLY: I'm going to give you a list, and I don't expect you to be in the position to respond immediately, and maybe during the break for tea you can have a look at the list. It's a list of some 102 companies which are possibly military front companies or companies related thereto, and if you can indicate to us when you have a chance to look at the list, as to which of these companies you have knowledge of, and which companies you were directly involved in.

What was your relationship with Dr Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: Dr Basson was the project officer, he was initially my Commanding Officer at the medical division at Special Forces, and later in my capacity as Managing Director of Delta-G Scientific, he was the project officer who was responsible for the Defence Force's chemical research needs, and he liaised with us in terms of the work we did for the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us, your appointment at Delta-G as Managing Director, was this at the behest, at the request or on the recommendation of Dr Wouter Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know what Dr Basson's role was in that, but the job was offered to me by the former Surgeon-General, Nico Nieuwoudt in 1985.

MR VALLY: What is your personal relationship like with Dr Wouter Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: Over the years we became friends. I first got to know him as a medical student when he was a clinical assistant and over the years we became friends and we shared an interest in road-running and we ran together in the mornings and we also played squash, and we also socialised.

MR VALLY: Would you say that he trusts you implicitly?

DR MIJBURGH: I would think so, yes.

MR VALLY: Now when you were at Delta-G, remember you were a medical doctor and this was a plant producing chemicals, what was your role there?

DR MIJBURGH: I was the Managing Director, so I was responsible for the overall management of the company.

MR VALLY: And what about control over research, were you aware of what research was being conducted?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Were you aware of what was being produced at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And were you aware that the substances which were produced at Delta-G were tested at Roodeplaat Research Laboratories?

DR MIJBURGH: I was not aware of that because we didn't have anything to do with the testing of any substances, but I would assume that it was to be tested at Roodeplaat if it had to be tested.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what you manufactured?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't have a complete list at my disposal, but we produced CR, which is an irritant and was specifically produced for the Defence Force, and then there was a variety of products such as potassium hydrochloride, ATPB, as you already know methaqualone, MDMA and a variety of other substances such as chloroconsulphate, etc.

MR VALLY: Let's just stop there, you mentioned methaqualone and that's confirmed that this was the active ingredient of mandrax.

DR MIJBURGH: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Are you saying you were manufacturing it on a large scale?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, we did.

MR VALLY: Can you give us approximate quantities?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know exactly how much was manufactured, but there was an order from the Defence Force for 1000 kilograms, as far as I can remember.

MR VALLY: In addition to that were there any other orders you received besides the 1000 kilograms?

DR MIJBURGH: From the Defence Force?

MR VALLY: From anyone.

DR MIJBURGH: Various orders received from various companies. I mentioned some of the substances to you, and we made these substances for a variety of people.

MR VALLY: I'm sorry, let's focus on methaqualone, the active ingredient for mandrax. You had an order of 1000 kilograms from the Defence Force, did you receive any other orders from any other source?

DR MIJBURGH: For methaqualone?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any other quantities of methaqualone that you manufactured?

DR MIJBURGH: Not as far as I can remember.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of manufacturing any tablets?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you absolutely certain?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, Delta-G did not manufacture tablets.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any other institution which you were involved in which made tablets?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any institution you were involved in which encapsulated mandrax?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Now let's go on to what you called MDMA, is this what is commonly called ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: I'm not a chemical expert, I'm not exactly sure what is ecstasy and what isn't, but the substance we made, I don't know its exact chemical name, but it was an amphetamine type substance. The name ecstasy I only heard about a year or so ago after the arrest of Dr Basson.

MR VALLY: You aware of the code name Baxil?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, that was the code name for the project for the manufacture of MDMA.

MR VALLY: And you're aware that it's potentially illegal and that you may risk being arrested for being in possession thereof?

DR MIJBURGH: We were given the assurance that it was not illegal in terms of the approvals which Delta-G received for it.

MR VALLY: So you were not concerned?

DR MIJBURGH: That it was illegal?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You didn't need any indemnity, you were not concerned that in case you were caught in possession of this substance that you may be arrested, and you wanted someone higher up to protect you from such arrest?

DR MIJBURGH: We had such an assurance which we received from the Surgeon-General at that stage.

MR VALLY: But you were concerned enough to raise the issue?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: So why were you aware that it was an illegal substance, you didn't know what it was?

DR MIJBURGH: I know it was some kind of an amphetamine and amphetamines were scheduled substances in South Africa.

MR VALLY: Because you know what I'm getting to, I'm getting to TRC 77(a), I'm sure your counsel has it in front of you. It's got a long name, which we think is a code name, and in brackets it's got Baxil, do you see the document?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: I want you to read the third sentence onwards into the record please. This is a letter addressed to you, Dr P A Mijburgh at Medchem Technologies on the 7th of August 1992, signed by D P Knobel, Surgeon-General. Will you read it into the record please?

DR MIJBURGH: Reads

"In respect of your request for protection and

indemnity against prosecution I would like to notify you that it is only within our capability to give this indemnity in so far as the raw material and successful delivery of the product to our project officer is concerned."

MR VALLY: Carry on.

DR MIJBURGH: "Any irregularity which exists or arises during the production as a result of any illegal delivery to any other clients directly or indirectly as a result of theft from the plant, it will be the full responsibility of the managing board of your production plant."

MR VALLY: So you were aware that you were potentially making an illegal substance which may result in y our prosecution?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, but we had the assurance that was not illegal in terms of the approval or permission which we had received.

MR VALLY: Where did you get this assurance from?

DR MIJBURGH: From General Knobel.

MR VALLY: Do you have any other document besides the one I've shown you?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: And is that the approval you're saying that you received, the indemnity you received?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: I see. So you believe this was sufficient to protect you from prosecution?

DR MIJBURGH: I thought so, yes.

MR VALLY: And at that stage you didn't know that Baxil was what we call ecstasy today?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: So you didn't know what you were manufacturing?

DR MIJBURGH: No, we knew what we were making, the name ecstasy was just only not known to me then, but only became known to me about a year ago.

MR VALLY: And at that stage what did you think you were making?

DR MIJBURGH: An amphetamine derivative.

MR VALLY: And where did you get the formula from?

DR MIJBURGH: Are you referring to the formula ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I'm talking about the formula for MDMA, your code name Baxil, where did you get the formula from?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm not sure what you're referring to, are you referring to TRC 77?

MR VALLY: I'm talking about the 1000 kilograms of what you call Baxil, which we know now is ecstasy.

DR MIJBURGH: We had an order from the Defence Force for a specific substance.

MR VALLY: Where did you get the formula from as to how to manufacture it?

DR MIJBURGH: The manufacturing method was established and developed at Delta-G. Dr Johan Koekemoer developed it.

MR VALLY: What was this made for, the ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: It was - the MBMA was manufactured for the Defence Force, for their order.

MR VALLY: What for?

DR MIJBURGH: The Defence Force indicated that they wanted a certain quantity of it as a potential incapacitating substance.

MR VALLY: Was the head of research at the time Dr Koekemoer whom you referred to earlier?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know if he was the head of research, there were three senior researchers, it could have been him or Dr Gert Lourens.

MR VALLY: Well you just advised us that Dr Koekemoer was the person who determined the process.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: So he would have been closely involved?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: He had given us evidence to the effect that he didn't think that ecstasy was a very effective incapacitant, that he was concerned about this issue, concerned enough to have raised it with various people. Did he raise his concerns with you?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Do you know General Neethling?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Personally?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did he visit you at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: Not as far as I know.

MR VALLY: He may have?

DR MIJBURGH: It's possible, but I can't remember that he ever came to Delta-G.

MR VALLY: What dealings did you have with him?

DR MIJBURGH: I met General Neethling in the early 80's, the Defence Force sent me along with him to a conference in Israel, I think it was a forensic conference, and the purpose for my going along was to look at certain water canons from a medical point of view. The Police wanted to procure these at the time in connection with the security aspect, whether it could injure people, etc. And from time to time, I in my capacity as Managing Director of Delta-G had contact with the Forensic Department of the Police and purely on the basis of courtesy I would have phoned him to talk about analytical methods. And on a social level, my in-laws or my wife's father also studied with General Neethling and they were friends. So on that basis, on a social basis, I also had contact with him and got to know him.

MR VALLY: So your dealings with him, if I understand you correctly, were in the early 80's, you went to Israel together, while you were still with Special Forces?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, when I was with SAMS.

MR VALLY: When you were with South African Medical Services to look at water canons?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: But you were an ordinary doctor at Special Forces?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, I was a medical officer at that stage.

MR VALLY: Why would they send you to look at water canons?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm assuming that the Police requested a medical doctor to go along.

MR VALLY: I see. You're not sure why you were chosen?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't specifically recall why I was chosen to go, I was relatively junior as a medical officer, and I went along as a doctor.

MR VALLY: Where did you qualify?

DR MIJBURGH: University of Pretoria.

MR VALLY: Which date?

DR MIJBURGH: 1979.

MR VALLY: So it was shortly after your qualification as a medical doctor you were sent to Israel with General Neethling to look at water canons?

DR MIJBURGH: Three or four years afterwards, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you got there, what did you then understand, what was the purpose of your being asked to be part of that delegation?

DR MIJBURGH: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: When you got there, what did you understand to have been the reason why you had been asked to accompany ...(intervention)

DR MIJBURGH: I had to comment on the safety aspect of the water canons in terms of the jet of water, whether this could injure people's eyes, whether the pressure was too high, etc. It wasn't a particularly complex issue.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was a purpose for you?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You understood that before you left?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Surely the Police have their own medical doctors, why did they need a military doctor?

DR MIJBURGH: The Police didn't have medical doctors at that stage that I was aware of.

MR VALLY: Well fine, your other dealings with Dr Neethling is out of courtesy you'd phone him about certain analytical details.

DR MIJBURGH: If people wanted to consult with him, yes. It happened from time to time that from Delta-G's analysts phoned the Forensic Department.

MR VALLY: So there was regular on-going contact between Delta-G people and General Neethling?

DR MIJBURGH: It wasn't on such a regular basis, it happened from time to time. If you want me to say how regularly, it was once or twice a year, if that often.

MR VALLY: I see. No other dealings with General Neethling?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You're not aware of 200 000 mandrax tablets being brought to you?

DR MIJBURGH: I think at one stage we extracted methaqualone from tablets at the request of the Defence Force, but I cannot recall this specifically. I just read this in the notes which were mentioned here.

MR VALLY: You're not aware of it personally?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I wasn't personally involved.

MR VALLY: As Managing Director of Delta-G would you not have known if such a thing had happened?

DR MIJBURGH: I would have know about it, yes.

MR VALLY: Did you have the facility to crush the tablets and extract methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm sure that we would have been able to do it, yes.

MR VALLY: You're not aware of it ever having being done while you were at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot recall this specific case.

MR VALLY: Can you recall any case where you crushed tablets to extract certain active ingredients?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I cannot recall one specific case.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't understand that, Mr Mijburgh, with respect. What is your reply, are you saying there could have been an occasion where this happened, except that you don't recall it, or are you saying in fact it never happened?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I cannot recall the specific case, but it could have happened. I think it did happen, but I cannot recall the specific case.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words you know that it did happen, that you know, you know that these things were crushed there for the purpose indicated by Mr Vally, but you can't say it happened on such and such a date and I was present - so and so was present? You don't recall that details, but you know that an event ...(intervention)

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, we did it, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Your answer to the Chairperson is slightly different from what you told me earlier, and let me get clarity on this, you are aware, other than what you heard at our hearing, that there was an occasion where tablets were crushed and certain active ingredients were extracted?

DR MIJBURGH: Methaqualone was extracted from tablets, yes.

MR VALLY: When?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know exactly when it happened because I cannot recall the specific case.

MR VALLY: Was this when you were Managing Director?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: Well can you please tell us?

DR MIJBURGH: It would have happened after '85 because prior to that they did not have the facilities to do something like that. It was only involved late 1986, so it would have been during the time that I was Managing Director.

MR VALLY: Alright, can you just briefly tell us, this happened when you were Managing Director after 1985 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, can you just allow Dr Randera to follow that question up.

DR RANDERA: Dr Mijburgh, just tell us, from what I understood in the - what's come out earlier on, your company actually had the facilities to actually produce methaqualone as well?

DR MIJBURGH: That's correct.

DR RANDERA: Now when did that start, and when you - earlier on you said you were aware of what research that was being done within your company as the MD, now something like methaqualone is not produced everyday. Now can you recall when your company started producing methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot recall exactly when it was, there is certain documentation that was here that indicated that it took place during '88, so it would have been after '86 in any case, because before '86 Delta-G did not have the equipment to make it.

DR RANDERA: No, what I'm trying to understand is, if you have, and again from what I understood earlier on, your company wasn't just there to do research on certain chemicals and medications on drugs, you actually had the facility to mass-produce substances. Now why if you had the facility to produce methaqualone already, you had the - Dr Koekemoer if I understand correctly, had started working more or less the same time as you had come to Delta-G, he had the formula for producing this substance already. Why if you have the ability to produce that already within your company, you still get tablets from the Forensic Department, crush it, extract the substance, can we understand that? Surely it would be easier and cheaper just to produce it from

DR MIJBURGH: I do not think so, I'm not trained in chemical ware, I cannot say how cost effective it was to manufacture this versus extracting it, I would have thought that there were not sufficient tablets available to extract it for the needs of the Defence Force at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair. We keep hearing this word, for the needs of the Defence Force. What would happen, does the Defence Force say, we need 1000 kilograms of methaqualone, produce it for us?

DR MIJBURGH: That's correct.

MR VALLY: But I thought you were the front company which provided the research facility and the research into possible incapacitance. You were the people who would say, yes this works, no this doesn't work. Would that be correct?

DR MIJBURGH: We worked on certain substances, we could only say on a theoretical basis whether it worked or not and our objective was to manufacture this substance, not to comment on its effectiveness. Yes, in the research thereof on a theoretical level one can say that one thing would be more active than another, and then we attempted to manufacture this specific substance, but we did not set the need for the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that you would get an instruction from the Defence Force asking you for certain chemical derivatives?

DR MIJBURGH: In certain circumstances, yes.

MR VALLY: In the case of methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And whether it was effective as an incapacitant or not was irrelevant?

DR MIJBURGH: To us it was not relevant at all.

MR VALLY: And for ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: For the MDMA the same.

MR VALLY: So whether it works or not, whether it's useful or not, you got an order, you manufacture?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Where would these items have been researched, where would someone research?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot comment on that, I do not know.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that Delta-G was specifically created for the purpose of researching chemical substances, such as incapacitants, and if research was not done at Delta-G, it would not have been done anywhere else. I put that to you, what's your response?

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G was established, no - as far as I heard it was initially established to do chemical research for the Defence Force. By the time that I became involved in Delta-G it was specifically there to on a chemical level do research for the Defence Force, and later on contract, and to manufacture substances for the Defence Force, whether we developed them ourselves or whether the Defence Force requested it.

MR VAN ZYL: At this stage there is an aspect which I do not find quite clear in terms of the way in which Mr Vally asked the question. If he referred to research, does it mean research done prior to the establishment of a need ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I think, with respect, I have to interrupt this. I think he's trying to give an answer to his client. If his question is not clear he can ask me to repeat it, but to answer on behalf of his client is certainly not his role in this hearing.

MR VAN ZYL: If I would like to give my client a reply I wouldn't put the microphone on, I'd do it softly. It is unclear to me and I think that a distinction must be made.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, Mr Vally, do I understand you to be objecting to the question, Mr van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, on the basis that it is unclear. As I understand it research can be done depending on the need for a chemical substance, or research can be done prior to the need being established and the establishment of the need can then be made. I think this distinction should be made, which is not being done in the question set by Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Mr Mijburgh, I asked you a very specific question, I asked you whether you were involved in the research into the possible uses of methaqualone, trade name mandrax, and ecstasy, what you called MDMA, and the code name you used was Baxil. Your answer was, no, you were just involved in the production thereof. Do you stand by that answer?

DR MIJBURGH: I was not involved personally, but Delta-G was involved, but I cannot recall that Delta-G was involved in any other research, except for the methods to manufacture it and the manufacturing thereof.

MR VALLY: Fine. Now, you're aware that Delta-G was a military front company, who did you get orders from to manufacture these substances?

DR MIJBURGH: From the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Who, to your knowledge, was the - let's talk about ecstasy, who was it delivered to?

DR MIJBURGH: It was delivered to the Defence Force via Medchem Consolidated's offices, where Dr Basson received it.

MR VALLY: And what happened to it thereafter?

DR MIJBURGH: Later it was destroyed, apparently.

MR VALLY: You lost - it was out of your control once you manufactured and delivered it?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Well, let's track one item. I've shown you TRC 77(a) which was an order for 1000 kilograms of ecstasy, do you accept that?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: At this stage was Dr Koekemoer responsible for the manufacture of the ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: You were not aware of his concerns about the ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot recall that he made any such comments at that stage.

MR VALLY: General Neethling told you nothing about this?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: What would happen - and you're not aware any research being done at Delta-G when you were Managing Director into ecstasy, into MDMA, other than manufacturing it?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I'm not aware of any other research.

MR VALLY: Just for the record, and you may have been here when Dr Koekemoer gave evidence, I am not sure, but Dr Koekemoer stated that he was extremely sceptical about the incapacitant qualities of ecstasy, and he's a chemist, he would know better than you, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: I would think so, yes.

MR VALLY: So you manufactures 1000 kilograms of ecstasy and these were delivered in certain batches. Who were they delivered to?

DR MIJBURGH: The MDMA was delivered to Dr Basson or in his capacity as representative of the Defence Force, as project officer.

MR VALLY: Delivered to him personally?

DR MIJBURGH: Excuse me?

MR VALLY: Was it delivered to Dr Basson personally?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot recall exactly how the delivery took place.

MR VALLY: You're the Managing Director of a company, here's a substance where you're concerned about getting arrested and prosecuted, you go so far as to ask the Surgeon-General for an indemnity, but you don't know anything about security regarding delivery. You were responsible for it until it was in the hands of the project officer, this is what General Knobel told you in TRC 77(a), but you can't tell us what happened to it.

DR MIJBURGH: I had full confidence in Dr Koekemoer, that his security measures would be sufficient.

MR VALLY: Do you know Steven Beukes?

DR MIJBURGH: Repeat please.

MR VALLY: Do you know Steven Beukes?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Tell us how do you know him.

DR MIJBURGH: Mr Beukes was an employee at Delta-G Scientific, and later on he became the manager of Medchem Pharmaceuticals. I knew him in the Defence Force, he was in the Army at the same time as I was.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that there's an allegation that you asked Steven Beukes to put MDMA into capsules?

DR MIJBURGH: I am not aware.

MR VALLY: Are you denying that you did it?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, I did not give him such an order or place such a request at all.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of a front company called Kowolsky International?

DR MIJBURGH: Kowolsky International was never a front company of the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Was it a private company?

DR MIJBURGH: It was a private company, yes.

MR VALLY: And who were the directors of Kowolsky International?

DR MIJBURGH: Drs Kowolsky, I was a director as well and Mr Ben van den Berg as well.

MR VALLY: Did Kowolsky International ever receive an order or a delivery of ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Why are you so certain?

DR MIJBURGH: You are referring to how the transaction was structured for the MDMA order and we did this - at that stage Kowolsky International was an affiliate company of Medchem. It was structured in such a way that in the first place, for purposes of VAT or GST, I'm not sure which one it was at stage and secondly, we wanted Kolwolsky’s figures to look a bit better, so it was instructed by Kowolsky. It was a transaction on paper.

MR VALLY: Let me get clarity here, it was a paper transaction which may have shown that certain drugs went to Kowolsky International, we're talking specifically ecstasy.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, if you are referring to the MDMA, it was a paper transaction which was structured by it, yes.

MR VALLY: So when we say that Kowolsky International, of which you were director, possibly were the final recipients of the ecstasy, it was all just a paper transaction for tax purposes?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: How would you use a private company for these purposes?

DR MIJBURGH: It was a subsidiary of Medchem and at that state, Delta-G was also a subsidiary of Medchem.

MR VALLY: But Kowolsky International is not a front company?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Medchem is a front company?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: And Delta-G is a front company?

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G at one stage was a front company, yes.

MR VALLY: If Delta-G is a subsidiary of Medchem as a front company as Kowolsky is a subsidiary of Medchem, I fail to understand why you say Medchem wasn't a front company.

DR MIJBURGH: A front company I would regard as a company, to use the English words, where the beneficial owners of the company were the Defence Force. They were never the owners in the case of Medchem and Kowolsky. I cannot think of the Afrikaans term at the moment, but the beneficial owners.

MR VALLY: Who set up the chemical for Medchem Technologies?

DR MIJBURGH: Medchem Consolidated Investments.

MR VALLY: Was that a military front company?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Who gave them the capital?

DR MIJBURGH: I gave it myself.

MR VALLY: You personally put up the capital for that?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Which was a holding company for Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: It was in the privatisation process of Delta-G, it became the holding company, yes.

MR VALLY: We're talking 1985, when you started?

DR MIJBURGH: No, we're talking about 1989. Medchem was established or taken over by the auditors in '89.

MR VALLY: In '89 you say that Delta-G was no longer a front company?

DR MIJBURGH: It's difficult to say exactly when, one could say that it was no longer a front company, but during the privatisation process which took place from 1991, Delta-G changed from a front company to a company of private ownership.

MR VALLY: We have a myriad of front companies, and I've given you a list of 100 and some odd. You mentioned Kowolsky International wasn't a front company, but a private company, but was used in paper transactions to conceal actions of the front companies, including for the drugs. Do I understand you correctly, maybe I'm tangling myself a bit, let me start again. Kowolsky International as a private company of which you were director is the final recipient of ecstasy, purely for the purposes of VAT?

DR MIJBURGH: No, it was not the final recipient, there was a transaction via Kowolsky International to Medchem Technologies.

MR VALLY: And they were involved in between regarding the drug ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: For the paper transaction, yes.

MR VALLY: I see. How would you mix private companies and front companies like this, wouldn't that be a major security risk? Wasn't Dr Kowolsky a foreign citizen?

DR MIJBURGH: He was, yes.

MR VALLY: So what about the security risk?

DR MIJBURGH: There was no security risk, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Dr Mijburgh, you're concerned about being prosecuted for this substance, you actually write and ask for an indemnity, you have a foreign doctor who is a director of a company, you have ecstasy, MDMA or Baxil, all the same thing, being manufactured on a large scale by a Government institution, and you tell me there's no security risk. Is that logical?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, Dr Kowolsky was not aware of what the substance was and in his capacity as Managing Director of Kowolsky International, it was a very nice transaction which made the figures look much better.

MR VALLY: Were you a director of any air-charter company?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of Aeromed Services?

DR MIJBURGH: I know the name, yes.

MR VALLY: Are you aware whether it was a front company?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of Global Air-charters (PTY) Ltd?

DR MIJBURGH: I am aware of that company too, yes.

MR VALLY: Were you involved in it?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware if it was a front company?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know whether it was a front company or not.

MR VALLY: Did you ever use the services of these two companies?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, I think we did use Global, I'm not sure about Aeromed.

MR VALLY: What for?

DR MIJBURGH: To rent an aeroplane.

MR VALLY: To fly where?

DR MIJBURGH: I can remember that we went to Malawi with a chartered plane.

MR VALLY: Because from what I can understand, potentially you had all the resources at your disposal to manufacture and airlift drugs to any part of the world. Potentially you could have done that, do you agree or disagree?

DR MIJBURGH: It's most probably possible, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Let's talk about 1000 kilograms of ecstasy, we're talking huge money here if it was put into capsules. We're talking anything from R600 million to R1 billion, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know what the value of that is.

MR VALLY: I need to understand something, because it's one of two things, either you prepared it as an incapacitant, we're talking ecstasy, MDMA, and you can't be sure, you were just given orders to manufacture and your earlier state, and again I'll ask you that question, prior to your arrival in 1985 they did not have the manufacturing capacity at Delta-G, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Not for 1000 kilograms, no.

MR VALLY: So it was only done after your arrival in 1985? Medchem Technologies is created in 1990, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: An order is placed with you for 1000 kilograms of MDMA, ecstasy, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, for MDMA.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of when this order was placed?

DR MIJBURGH: I am not exactly certain what the date was, but it would have been more or less when the quotation was issued in July, so it should have been after the 30th of July 1992.

MR VALLY: After that date, you say it's after that date?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, it would have had to be.

MR VALLY: We find it very strange as to how you used front companies, and let me tell you why. Were you ever involved in Medchem Technologies?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Were you a director of Medchem Technologies?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: Were you a director in 1991 of Medchem Technologies?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, I'm not quite sure.

MR VALLY: Why would Medchem Technologies change its name on the 11th of December 1991 to Data Images?

DR MIJBURGH: We used a company which was available and Medchem Technologies was not a very active company and I think that this was the company that was in position. I cannot comment specifically why Medchem Technologies was used for this.

MR VALLY: You're not aware of Data Images at all?

DR MIJBURGH: I am yes.

MR VALLY: You're not aware that Medchem Technology's name was changed to Data Image?

DR MIJBURGH: Not specifically.

MR VALLY: I have a letter - certificate of change of name of company,

"This is to certify that Medchem Technology has changed its name by special resolution. It's now called Data Image Information Systems."

And it's dated 11th of December 1991. Are you aware of it now?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, if reference is made to a document and the witness is asked to reply to it, I would like him to have it in his possession.

MR VALLY: We are forwarding a copy to Dr Mijburgh right now. As you can see, I've given you three documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to go into a completely new field, Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: I just need to ask three questions regarding these three documents.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, Mr Chaskalson has only now handed us the document. Could my client please have an opportunity just to peruse it?

CHAIRPERSON: It looks like they are fairly straightforward documents, company documents.

MR VALLY: These are very straightforward documents, there are two documents which said "Application for change of name of company", and there's a document referred to as "Certificate of Incorporation".

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Mr Vally, place your three questions.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you, Chair, my client will now answer the questions.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the change of name?

DR MIJBURGH: On these documents, yes. I can't specifically recall why we used Medchem Technologies and changed its name to Data, I'm not aware of the specific reason or I simply can't remember at the moment.

MR VALLY: Well, I'll put it to you, you've got a company called Medchem Technologies, it changes its name to Data Image Information Systems. Apparently on the same date you establish another company called Medchem Technologies again, but with a different company number. Do you see Certificate of Incorporation, do you see that document, Certificate of Incorporation, one of the three I gave you?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you see the sentence "This is to certify that Medchem Technologies (PTY) Ltd was this day incorporated under the Companies Act"?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, it still exists to this day.

MR VALLY: Do you see the date, the 11th of December 1991?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you see the date on the Change of name of Company, "Medchem Technologies (PTY) Ltd has changed its name by special resolution, it's now called Data Image Information Systems?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you see the date, 11th of December 1991?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: The same date.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, do you see that under the certificate of change of name of company, the company registration number is 90/03541/07?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you see the certificate of incorporation of the new company, the company registration number there, it's 91/07197/07?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you have any explanation for these changes?

DR MIJBURGH: Mr Vally, at the moment I don't know why it was done, I would like to find out because I assume that there must have been a financial reason for this structuring, but at this stage I can't give you an answer.

MR VALLY: Was Data Images a private company?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, it was.

MR VALLY: It is still a private company?

DR MIJBURGH: Is, it still exists.

MR VALLY: And who is the directors?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm the only director.

MR VALLY: Is it possible that company orders made up and delivered in terms of one company number and payments would be made to the same company number, but with a different name?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think company numbers are generally used in orders, we work on the name of the company.

MR VALLY: Is it possibly a mechanism used to divert funds which were payments - you go to your bank, you say here's my cheque for Medchem Technology, but I've changed my name, here's my certificate of change of name of company, it's the same people, please deposit this in my account. Are you aware of the possibility of that happening?

DR MIJBURGH: No, you're losing me here, I can't think that new current accounts were opened.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this should be a convenient stage, before we all get lost, to take the tea adjournment. Mr Vally, may we after the tea break move on to, quickly I would hope, on these companies and fraud and everything else, to establish the real purpose of these hearings in so far as they should impact on our understanding of how this facility was used for perpetration of gross violation of human rights. We'll adjourn until 11h00.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

DR MIJBURGH: (s.u.o)

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR VALLY:: (cont)

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start I would like to welcome Mr Cilliers.

MR CILLIERS: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard all the bad things I have said about you in your absence.

MR CILLIERS: I understand that you made the allegation that my conduct borders on contempt and I don't understand that. I'm appearing here as part of a team with my learned colleague, Mr van Zyl, for Dr Mijburgh. Now how the absence of one member of the team could border on contempt I don't understand, but I've taken note of that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're really abandoned you, if I must say so, because he didn't seem to know about all the issues, but I think we'll deal with that between you and Mr Vally, but if you've heard all the bad things, you must have heard also I said it was subject to whatever representations you might make, I might be persuaded otherwise.

MR CILLIERS: I can only refer you to page 58 of the record where it is put very clearly that Mr van Zyl and I are acting as a team on behalf of, amongst others, Dr Mijburgh.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the matter of Dr Wouter Basson and his presence, or otherwise will be dealt with between you and Mr Vally and then we can deal with that possibly after the lunch break. Certain things were placed on record in your absence.

MR CILLIERS: Yes, I've heard of those, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We also welcome Mr Norman Arendse, who was not here at the beginning of the proceedings.

MR ARENDSE: I didn't hear anything bad about me, so I've got absolutely nothing to say, but I did try and make prior arrangements that I'd be late. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Brian Currin, we also would like to welcome you. Your interests were well looked after by....

MR CILLIERS: May I find out why I was the only one who was criticised in my absence?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, before you begin, I would also want to recognise the presence in our midst of a group of researchers from Austria, from the Southern African Documentation and Corporation's Centre in Vienna and my pronunciation will not be one of the best, but I believe that they are a group of people, one of whom is Alfie Hochner, if they came welcome Alfie, Juta Jorend, Andrea Klausgreber, Isabelle Oliver, Alfreda Petton, Walter Sauer and Juta Wagley-Uninger. Welcome to South Africa, and welcome particularly to these hearings.

I'd also want to recognise the presence in our midst of Ellis Gouws who is the contributing editor to the News Week Magazine, and he's from New York. Welcome Mr Gouws. Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: For the record we have received the court application by Dr Wouter Basson and it will be attended to immediately when we have a break. It's dated - we received it on the 7th of July 1998, according to the note on it at 09h30.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could go ahead then Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Dr Mijburgh, we were busy with the change of the name of Medchem Technologies on the 11th of December 1991 to Data Image Information Systems and the company registration number starting with 90, and on that same date the creation of another company, also called Medchem Technologies with a different company number. Did you have any explanation for us for this?

DR MIJBURGH: At the moment no. I will have to consult with my auditors to find out what the reason for that was, I'm assuming that there was a good business reason for that, but I have no idea why it happened.

MR VALLY: Briefly, who are your auditors?

DR MIJBURGH: Who are my auditors? Coopers and Lybrandt.

MR VALLY: And at the time?

DR MIJBURGH: The same, they might have been Coopers, Theron, Du Toit, they had a couple of name changes, but they're essentially still the same firm.

MR VALLY: Not Mr Truter?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: If you look at TRC 77, TRC 77 is an offer for the manufacture of Baxil. Baxil as we now know is the code name for ecstasy. Do you have TRC 77 with you?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you advise us the circumstances in which you made this offer to Brigadier Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: We were requested to quote for the supply of 1000 kilograms, and that is why we drafted this quote.

MR VALLY: And who made the request to you?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember specifically, but I think it was Dr Basson, the quote was addressed to him.

MR VALLY: Now if you look at that same document, TRC 77, and this is now July the 30th 1992, approximately 7 months after the change of name of Medchem Technologies, and top right-hand corner if you look - see the company registration number. The company registration number set out there is the same one for Data Images now, Data Image Information Systems, you see what I'm referring to?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you explain

(NO MECHANICAL RECORDING)

MR VALLY: Very briefly, you get an order for 1000 kilograms of ecstasy, you think it's for Dr Basson, an issue which makes you nervous, because you ask the Surgeon-General for indemnity in case you're prosecuted, but you're not sure who you got the order from now, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't recall specifically who made the request for the quote, the order was received from the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Fine. You then get Dr Koekemoer to manufacture it. He has told us that he was concerned about this because he did not believe it was an effective incapacitant and he raised his concerned with certain people. You say he did not raise it with you?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember that he ever referred to it at the relevant forums.

MR VALLY: Did you ever discuss it with Koekemoer, Dr Koekemoer, your concerns about possible prosecution?

DR MIJBURGH: I will assume that I was part of the talks and negotiations because this took place at the management meetings of Delta-G where Dr Koekemoer would have been present, so for that reason I assume that it was discussed.

MR VALLY: But you're not sure?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I'm sure it was discussed at the meetings where Dr Koekemoer was present. I can't recall that I specifically spoke to him, with him alone.

MR VALLY: Dr Koekemoer, as the chemist at the time and as the person responsible for production, did not raise with you that it wasn't an effective incapacitant?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't recall that he ever said that.

MR VALLY: Would you have remembered if he had said so?

DR MIJBURGH: Possibly not.

MR VALLY: Why not, you were worried about possible prosecution, you were so worried that you in fact asked for a written indemnity? Were you operating totally as a soldier, you just manufacture whatever you're told to manufacture without concerning yourself about the product?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think so, Mr Vally, it was discussed and we did discuss how we could assure that it be a legal transaction and we received the indemnity or the approval of the Surgeon-General.

MR VALLY: The question is, the purposes for which it was manufactured, were you never ever concerned about that?

DR MIJBURGH: I assumed that it was an incapacitant which the Defence Force wanted to use.

MR VALLY: You weren't aware of Dr Koekemoer's concerns?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember that he mentioned it at that stage.

MR VALLY: You are a medical doctor, at very least you know about the abuse of certain habit forming substances. As a medical doctor weren't you concerned?

DR MIJBURGH: Concerned about what?

MR VALLY: The possible abuse of the ecstasy that you were manufacturing.

DR MIJBURGH: At the stage I didn't think there was a possibility of abuse.

MR VALLY: Why not?

DR MIJBURGH: As far as we were concerned, it was a legal order from the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: I see, fine. You manufacture 1000 kilograms of ecstasy, you told us earlier it was delivered to Dr Basson.

DR MIJBURGH: Dr Basson received it.

MR VALLY: Well we have evidence from Dr Koekemoer that he personally delivered it to you at Medchem Consolidated. Were you not the Managing Director of Medchem Consolidated?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, I was.

MR VALLY: He says he personally delivered it to you.

DR MIJBURGH: He delivered it to the Medchem Offices, that would be the normal channel. Medchem was specifically the contact point between Delta-G and the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Do you still maintain that Medchem Technologies was a private company and not a military funded company?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, according to my definition.

MR VALLY: Which is what?

DR MIJBURGH: That the beneficial owners were never the Defence Force and the Defence Force never had any say in the board of directors of the company.

MR VALLY: So if the Defence Force had no say at all in the board of directors of the company and were not the beneficial owners as you put it, and you also told us that you put up the capital for it, then the thousand kilograms of ecstasy was delivered to a private company, ostensibly ordered by the Defence Force.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: How do you explain that, a military front company gets the order from the Defence Force, a military front company then executes the order and delivers it to a private company.

DR MIJBURGH: In 1992 Delta-G was not longer a military front company.

MR VALLY: What was it now?

DR MIJBURGH: It was a privatised company.

MR VALLY: I see. Well, let's come back to that as well. You then - then what do you do with it? Clearly Dr Koekemoer gave it to you, what did you do with it?

DR MIJBURGH: He delivered it to Medchem and Medchem delivered it to Dr Basson.

MR VALLY: Medchem was you, you're the Managing Director of Medchem?

DR MIJBURGH: Medchem was a company, I was the Managing Director thereof.

MR VALLY: He said he gave it personally into your care. Would you dispute that?

DR MIJBURGH: I beg your pardon, what did he say?

MR VALLY: He delivered it to your care, he came to you and he said, here's the order as requested.

DR MIJBURGH: He delivered it to Medchem.

MR VALLY: And he brought it to your personal attention? It was put in the basement of Medchem.

DR MIJBURGH: There was a place of storage where it was delivered to, yes.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, if I perhaps could intervene here, if my memory serves, I think the version of Dr Koekemoer was that it was delivered to Medchem, but not that it was personally delivered or handed over to the witness. I can't recall that he said that specifically, I think his evidence was that because there were only certain quantities made at a time he delivered it in batches, and he used his bakkie to go and deliver it. But he never handed it personally to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what - Mr Vally, I think that's what needs to be cleared. Are you putting it to him on the basis of that evidence or are you seeking to ask the question in any event?

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, my notes, the evidence by Dr Koekemoer was that the ecstasy was delivered to Dr Mijburgh at his office in batches of 12kg drums in pure white crystalline form.

CHAIRPERSON: That seems to be the general regulation, but put it to the witness on that basis.

MR VALLY: You heard my submission that it was delivered to you in batches at Medchem by Dr Koekemoer?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Let's go on. Yet the delivery not said that the ecstasy was delivered to Kowolsky International.

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: And you stated that this was for tax reasons?

DR MIJBURGH: There would have been a delivery note from Kowolsky to Medchem Technologies as well.

MR VALLY: Which is another private company of which you are a director, together with Dr Kowolsky?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: A Polish citizen?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Your attorneys have an affidavit from Steven Beukes, are you aware of that affidavit?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: I refer you to paragraph 9 thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Where Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, you should have it, I don't have a reference number on it, but it was given to you previously.

CHAIRPERSON: And not this morning?

MR VALLY: Look at paragraph 9. Now just for the record, Steven Beukes was approached allegedly by you to sell up a company called Medchem Pharmaceuticals, do you confirm that?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Were you a director of Medchem Pharmaceuticals?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: As was Steven Beukes?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct, yes, he was the Managing Director.

MR VALLY: If you look at paragraph 9, he says you approached him, allegedly on instructions of Dr Basson, to quote for the manufacture of capsules.

Paragraph 10, he thought it was a State contract. He, paragraph 11, manufactured approximately 1 million capsules. What's your reaction to those allegations?

DR MIJBURGH: Medchem Pharmaceuticals or Mr Beukes manufactured a number of capsules, I don't know how many, for the State.

MR VALLY: And what capsules were these?

DR MIJBURGH: We were never told what the active ingredient was.

MR VALLY: Let me understand this, Medchem Technologies, and correct me if I'm wrong, asked Medchem Pharmaceuticals, of both companies you're the director, to manufacture capsules.

DR MIJBURGH: No, there was an order as far as I know from SAMS.

MR VALLY: And the ingredients for those capsules, where did you get that from?

DR MIJBURGH: It was supplied by the SAMS, by Wouter Basson, in person.

MR VALLY: Let me understand this further, how did he deliver this substance, the ingredient for the capsules to you?

DR MIJBURGH: He probably would have delivered it to Medchem, I'm not exactly sure. We'll have to accept Mr Beukes' version as he wrote it because he was the Managing Director, and he dealt with it.

MR VALLY: If I tell you that the ingredients that were given to him were the ecstasy, the MDMA as you call it, which was delivered to you by Dr Koekemoer, was the same item which was given to Steven Beukes to encapsulate, what would be your response?

DR MIJBURGH: I wouldn't think so.

MR VALLY: And why not?

DR MIJBURGH: There was never an order to encapsulate MDMA, and I can't comment on what it looked like because I never saw it myself.

MR VALLY: We're talking about 1000 kilograms of a substance. Steven Beukes is asked to encapsulate a substance. I'm asking you a simple question, he gets the substance from the basement of Medchem Technologies, I believe, how did that substance arrive there?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't comment on that.

MR VALLY: You were not concerned?

DR MIJBURGH: Not at that stage, no.

MR VALLY: Why not?

DR MIJBURGH: There was nothing sinister about it.

MR VALLY: You are aware that you people had been dealing with mandrax, you had been dealing with MDMA, which you realise was potentially illegal, yet you were not concerned about what you were asked to encapsulate?

DR MIJBURGH: No, Mr Beukes made us understand that it was a normal request.

MR VALLY: You misunderstand, Mr Beukes said that the request came from you.

DR MIJBURGH: I think Mr Beukes is wrong. I can't see why I would have requested him to do that. Mr Basson had direct contact with him.

MR VALLY: So you say you did not order or request or instruct Steven Beukes to encapsulate any powder?

DR MIJBURGH: I was part of a decision in the company to carry out an order. I can't recall that I specifically gave him the instruction to do that.

MR VALLY: And you do not know who was responsible for the order?

DR MIJBURGH: The Defence Force placed the order.

MR VALLY: Are you sure of that?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't be sure because I didn't see the documentation. That's why I'm saying you must look at what Mr Beukes wrote, and I must assume that it's correct.

MR VALLY: Well Mr Beukes said you gave him the instruction.

DR MIJBURGH: I think he's wrong.

MR VALLY: Dr Koekemoer was in fact arrested by the Police for possession of ecstasy because of a bottle of capsules he took from Mr Beukes' office of Mr Beukes had left. Are you aware of that?

DR MIJBURGH: I heard about it, yes.

MR VALLY: So potentially a million capsules of ecstasy was prepared by Mr Beukes?

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, no, with respect, that is not correct, that is not what Mr Beukes says in his statement. What he says in his statement is that he didn't know what the active ingredient was, and it was common practice that people who do the encapsulating don't know what the ingredients are, because he specifically refers to trade secrets that had to be protected. So he had no idea what was inside the capsule. So the statement is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, my question was very simple, Dr Koekemoer was arrested for capsules which he found in Mr Beukes' office when Mr Beukes had vacated his office. I said potentially Mr Beukes had encapsulated ecstasy and that was my question, would you say that is correct, or not?

DR MIJBURGH: Potentially I suppose, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words he's laying the basis for the question by referring to the arrest which you alleged, and I think you will answer it on the basis that he puts to you, the surrounding circumstances, I think you can put your question.

MR VALLY: It has been answered.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.

DR MIJBURGH: I said potentially I suppose, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Dr Myburgh, would you consider it unusual to be getting that sort of an order from the South African Medical Services, to be producing a million tablets of something you don't know? I would have again understood that as part of the health services, if any tablets were to be bought, it would through the tender system. Had you ever received and order like that from the South African Medical Services previously, whether as a front company or as a private company?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm not aware of any such order, no.

DR RANDERA: Again, from your experience of the South African Medical Services, when tablets were bought or capsules were bought, would they come through front companies such as yours?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't comment on that because I had no experience of that in the SAMS.

DR RANDERA: But you have experience of dealing with not only the front companies, but as a medical pharmaceutical company, had you ever received an order such as the one we're talking about? A million - we're not talking about a few hundred capsules, we're talking about a million capsules.

DR MIJBURGH: We had never previously had such an order, no.

DR RANDERA: So you would say it's unusual?

DR MIJBURGH: For the company at that stage, yes, it was the first time that there was such an order. We did however place such orders in relation to other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Beukes says that he returned the capsules to the basement at Medchem. What happened to the capsules from there?

DR MIJBURGH: I would not be able to say. I accept that it was taken by Mr Basson, the person who placed the order.

MR VALLY: Are you assuming that?

DR MIJBURGH: I accept that, yes, I was not involved in the order itself or the execution thereof.

MR VALLY: So you are expecting us to believe that a million capsules were delivered or taken by Dr Basson, you're not sure how, where, when? One person, Dr Wouter Basson took a million capsules. When, you're not sure - how, you're not sure.

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know, I do not know how many volume-wise a million capsules would be, I do not know how it was delivered and how he fetched it.

MR VALLY: A major order, the first major order of a company of which you were a director, and you showed no interest in something as simple as delivering?

DR MIJBURGH: I was a non-executive director, Mr Beukes was skilled enough to manage the company within his abilities, and I did not think it necessary to concern myself with that.

MR VALLY: Well Mr Beukes delivered it to the company of which you were the Managing Director. He says in his affidavit that it was returned to the basement.

DR MIJBURGH: He definitely did not deliver it to Medchem, the delivery was not from Medchem. I accept that it was an agreement made with Dr Basson.

MR VALLY: You're assuming that it was an agreement made?

DR MIJBURGH: I would assume that, yes.

MR VALLY: So Dr Wouter Basson had complete access to your basements at any stage, to come and go as he liked?

DR MIJBURGH: The specific storage room of which we are speaking about was used by Dr Basson, yes.

MR VALLY: And so you're saying he could have come at any time, no documents, no notes, he could have taken whatever he wanted from that storeroom?

DR MIJBURGH: At that stage if it had been delivered there, it was delivered to the Defence Force and I accept that it would have been invoiced as well.

MR VALLY: With respect, you just told us Medchem was a private company, it wasn't a front company.

DR MIJBURGH: It was not a front company.

MR VALLY: So if it wasn't a front company, how can you say that delivery to you was delivery to the Defence Force?

DR MIJBURGH: But it was not delivered to Medchem, it might have been delivered to the storage room, but not to the company.

MR VALLY: The storage room did not belong to the company?

DR MIJBURGH: Not the contents thereof.

MR VALLY: This deal whereby Kowolsky International, another private company, was named on the delivery note, was that not potentially fraudulent?

DR MIJBURGH: Why?

MR VALLY: You were trying to, according to your evidence, bypass the payment of VAT.

DR MIJBURGH: No, Mr Vally, it has to do with the disparity in time of the paying of GST. There would be a back to back transaction between Medchem Technologies, so we had this money for a month longer in our account.

MR VALLY: Right, so you don't see that as being fraudulent?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: A paper transaction purely for the purposes of delaying the payment of VAT?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, with all respect, before the tea adjournment you indicated to Mr Vally, if I understood you correctly, that this aspect regarding VAT or sales tax invoices did not take matters any further and with respect he must limit himself to the relevant aspects, and I object o further questioning in this line.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: My learned friend is entitled to his own opinion. I think it's entirely relevant. We have - one of the definitions of our act says severe ill-treatment is a gross violation of human rights and potentially putting a million capsules of ecstasy onto the streets, and we're coming to the mandrax just now, is sever ill-treatment, and so it falls specifically within our mandate and more so, it is set out in the subpoena which has been served on my learned friend's client. However, he will be relieved to know that I'm moving on from ecstasy to mandrax.

CHAIRPERSON: I will also be relieved.

MR VAN ZYL: On that basis I'll withdraw my objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's move on, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Let's talk mandrax. Tell us the process that you went through to crush the 200 000 mandrax tablets that you received from General Neethling?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't, Mr Vally, I wasn't involved in that personally.

MR VALLY: Before the tea break you advised us that you believed that the mandrax tablets had been crushed at Delta-G.

DR MIJBURGH: I can't tell you how the physical extraction took place, I don't know.

MR VALLY: Did you have machines to do that, I don't assume you had someone sitting with a mortar and pastel, we're talking 200 000 tablets. Did you have the manufacturing capacity, do you have machinery which could crush 200 000 tablets?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think we could have crushed it, but maybe it wasn't crushed, maybe it was just put in a solvent.

MR VALLY: ...(indistinct)

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know.

MR VALLY: You of course knew that mandrax was an illegal substance, an illegal drug?

DR MIJBURGH: Mandrax the tablet, yes, it was an illegal drug.

MR VALLY: And methaqualone, you are aware of that, you're nodding your head.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Yes, so weren't you interested in the control of this substance from point of receipt to point of delivery? Can you tell us anything at all about the 200 000 mandrax tablets that you had received, allegedly by Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't tell you any more that as has already been put out in the documents. We did an extraction, whether it was 200 000 tablets, I don't know, I can't give you the quantity.

MR VALLY: You say you did do an extraction?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, an extraction was done of the mandrax tablets.

MR VALLY: How do you know this?

DR MIJBURGH: I think that there was such an extraction, I seem to recall that there was.

MR VALLY: But you're not sure?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know exactly when it was done, how many tablets were involved.

MR VALLY: Right, you don't know when it was done, how many tablets were involved, how it's done, you don't know, you've already advised us on this. What did you do with it after whatever you need to extract, the methaqualone for example, what did you do with the methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: It would have been given back to the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Do you know this for a fact?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I can't remember it specifically because I don't have any documents to corroborate that.

MR VALLY: So you don't know that either?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Why is it that in the documents we have, we've seen no reference to research, specifically at Delta-G into methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: General Neethling advised us that 200 000 mandrax tablets were given to Dr Basson for research purposes. If that is true, did you ever have discussions with General Neethling about this issue?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: He never mentioned to you, by the way I slipped 200 000 mandrax tablets to Dr Basson, how is it going?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did he mention anything about LSD, did you ever do any work on LSD?

DR MIJBURGH: Not as far as I know.

MR VALLY: Did you do any work on dagga?

DR MIJBURGH: We did some work on cannabis, yes.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what?

DR MIJBURGH: There was an extraction of the active ingredient of cannabis from the amount of cannabis which we received from the Defence Force via Dr Basson, and I understand that it come from the Police.

MR VALLY: Alright, let's just take the mandrax a bit further. We know you got 200 - well, we know that General Neethling gave Dr Basson 200 000 - approximately 200 000 mandrax tablets. Are you aware of when you started sourcing mandrax tablets - sorry, methaqualone, directly at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember precisely when. According to the documents it seems that it was manufactured in 1988, roundabout then.

MR VALLY: Alright, so you started manufacturing it in 1988. Do you recall how much methaqualone you manufactured?

DR MIJBURGH: I think, but I'm not sure, that there was 1000 kilograms that was manufactured.

MR VALLY: So we've go 200 000 mandrax tablets, possibly delivered to you, but definitely Dr Basson, we've got 1000 kilograms of mandrax which you manufactured yourself - methaqualone, I beg your pardon. What did you do with the 1000 kilograms?

DR MIJBURGH: It was delivered to the Defence Force or the Defence Force came to fetch it, I can't recall exactly how it happened.

MR VALLY: You don't know?

DR MIJBURGH: The physical procedure followed, that I can't comment on. I can't remember that I was actually involved and I can't remember how it happened.

MR VALLY: But you were the Managing Director at the relevant time?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: What about the methaqualone ...(indistinct) from Croatia, did that come to Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I am not aware of methaqualone from Croatia.

MR VALLY: You have no knowledge of it whatsoever?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Dr Mijburgh, do you recall you went to Switzerland?

DR MIJBURGH: I beg your pardon.

MR VALLY: Do you recall you went to Switzerland?

DR MIJBURGH: I went to Switzerland on several occasions.

MR VALLY: Specifically regarding the issue of Dr Jacomet?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I had nothing to do with Dr Jacomet.

MR VALLY: We have documentation showing that you went to Switzerland regarding the issue of Dr Jacomet and his involvement ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, with respect, once again we're dealing with documentation and we have no copies in front of us. Please will Mr Vally hand it over to my client so that we can have a look at it and consult perhaps.

CHAIRPERSON: That is fair comment.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, and also as far a further procedural arrangements are concerned, if there's other documentation which Mr Vally would like to refer to, he must please give it to us now so that we can do all our consultation with the client now and then we can continue without interruption. Any further documentation to be used must be handed to us now so that I can consult my client on that, otherwise we are going to have this piecemeal procedure which is going to be very time consuming.

CHAIRPERSON: We've reached a stage where we should be talking about that. That's a very fair comment, Mr van Zyl. Mr Vally if we're going to be using documents, the witnesses are entitled to have not only sight of them, but to be able to consult with their legal practitioners on the basis thereof. It's so standard that I'm sure there's been a slip-up.

MR VALLY: I agree with that, these were the documentation that we received form General Knobel. We're still waiting for an answer from Advocate Arendse, we want to use this documentation and we're waiting for them to come back to us on that. We've had discussions with them. I apologise, and I may need to come back to this issue. Dr Mijburgh for the record said that he had no knowledge of the mandrax from Croatia and I want to come back - methaqualone rather from Croatia and I will come back to that issue, Mr Chair, but maybe we can jog Advocate Arendse along a bit.

MR ARENDSE: I don't think it's a question of jogging me along, Chairperson, the provisional arrangement the last time was that these documents would fall into category B, subject to Mr Vally and Mr Chaskalson having a closer look at them. They've come back to me during the break to indicate that they only feel there's one particular document, but I don't see what that's got to do with the witness and his counsel requesting these documents in advance.

MR VALLY: I am aware ...(intervention)

MR ARENDSE: ...[inaudible] allegation arises from which document it relates to but it's not my witness.

MR VAN ZYL: With respect Chairperson, it doesn't solve my problem yet.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I appreciate that.

MR VAN ZYL: And I in any case don't understand what proliferation there could have been in whether he went to Switzerland or whatever, I simply want to have sight of all the documents now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, are you going to be using or referring to any documents which the witness and his legal representatives have not had sight of, let alone consulting on the basis thereof?

MR VALLY: I hear you Mr Chairman. We'll sort that out by lunch time. There is some doubt in our minds as to which documents we want to use but we weren't clear that we had been given the go-ahead to use them but if that is the position that suits us fine and we'll do it over lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions which you still want to put to this witness that do not involve documents?

MR VALLY: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead Mr Vally. Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman.

For all you know, whatever was encapsulated by Steven Beukes could possibly have been mandrax?

DR MIJBURGH: It could have been anything Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: So it could have been mandrax?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Have you heard of The Citizens Co-operation Bureau, CCB?

DR MIJBURGH: I have heard of them, yes.

MR VALLY: When you were with Special Forces were you aware of them?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: When did you first become aware of them?

DR MIJBURGH: Press reports.

MR VALLY: Were you aware that they were also attached as one of the Special Forces part of the South African Defence Force?

DR MIJBURGH: Only what I read in the media.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that certain individuals involved in Delta-G had contact with operatives from CCB?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did you know Doctor Immelman?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: How did you know him?

DR MIJBURGH: He was an employee of RRL.

MR VALLY: Did you ever have any contact with him?

DR MIJBURGH: I did have contact with him, yes.

MR VALLY: Regularly contact?

DR MIJBURGH: Not regular, no.

MR VALLY: Monthly, weekly?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: How often?

DR MIJBURGH: One in two to three years.

MR VALLY: I see. I want to show you a document which you do have. This is what is called the Steyn Report or the documentation prepared for the, the information prepared for the Steyn Report, do you have a copy of that document? I'm just trying to find a reference for you, I think it's 112.

MR VAN ZYL: 111.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon?

MR VAN ZYL: 111 is the one that I've got.

MR VALLY: That's correct, it's 111. Do you have it in front of you?

DR MIJBURGH: Not yet. What are the page numbers?

MR VALLY: The page I'm referring to specifically is B12. This is off TRC111. It's the tables at the back of it.

DR MIJBURGH: On my list of documentation I don't see a TRC111, it's not part of the documentation that I received or at least I don't see it.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I think this is a document that was handed in at a later during the proceedings. I do not have a copy of it either. If we can just ensure, I do not know whether the witness was informed about this previously.

MR VALLY: The document was given to the attorneys of Doctor Mijburgh. There's only one small aspect that I want to raise there.

MR VAN ZYL: If I remember correctly it was during General Neethling's testimony that this document was handed in. It was not given to this witness as part of the documentation beforehand. We got a copy of this but we did not know that it had specific reference to this witness. It was not part of the documents that was given to him together with his subpoena.

MR VALLY: The question is very simple. The attorneys have had this documentation. I accept it was for the purposes of representing a different client, General Neethling but the question is very simple, it doesn't require intensive research to answer it. I want to put one line of the table on page B12 to this witness Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to be able to reply to that question if he doesn't know what is on B12?

MR VALLY: His attorneys have a copy of it in front them.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, we do have a copy. I don't want to prevent my learned friend from asking the question, I just wanted to make it clear that the witness didn't have it beforehand but he can now ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

If you look at page B12 and the column which is headed:

"Information by Sources"

Do you see the table I'm looking at? The very last sentence of that particular table:

"Wouter Basson also offered 100 000 mandrax tablets for one year"

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you have any knowledge of that?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the allegation contained therein?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Were you ever questioned about this allegation?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did General Knobel ever raise this issue with you?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Thanks, that's all with reference to that document Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Now as a military front company, and I'm talking about Delta-G here, who did you get instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: From the Project Officer, Doctor Basson.

MR VALLY: Was he the only person you got instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: Most of the time, yes. I think instructions were also given by the Surgeon General. I cannot give you specific examples. I think most of our contact was with Doctor Basson.

MR VALLY: Would you not have remembered if you got instructions from the Surgeon General?

DR MIJBURGH: If say instructions, it would possibly have been an approval of a budget which would have been done on the level. I cannot remind myself or remember a specific instruction from him.

MR VALLY: So you say that you have a front company with a number of people under your control as Managing Director, you knew it was a military front company but except for Doctor Basson, the only other dealings you had were with the Surgeon General who talked to you about issues like salary raises or budgets, I beg your pardon.

DR MIJBURGH: No, it was with the Committee, the so-called CMC.

MR VALLY: And when you say: "van tyd tot tyd", how often is this?

DR MIJBURGH: Very irregularly, two to three times a year perhaps on a quarterly basis perhaps.

MR VALLY: So there was no real control over your company, Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: There was absolute control in terms of the financial control.

MR VALLY: So the control that was exercised was financial control?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: And that is an issue that you were on top of?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: That you fully understood the financial position?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: But you can't explain to us why the company was changed to Data Image?

DR MIJBURGH: It was not Delta-G, it was another company.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, I accept that. Because I want to come back to Medchem just now. One of the major things you did there was manufacturing of CR gas at Delta-G, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Was this for internal use or external use?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know what it was used for, it was done on order for the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: We understand that it was also made available for riot control purposes, do you have any knowledge of that?

DR MIJBURGH: As far as I know it was used by the police as well, yes.

MR VALLY: Doctor Koekemoer said that he believed it should not be used internally because it remained in the environment for a period of up to 5 years, are you aware of that?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know if it takes such a long time to remove all traces. I'm not trained in that field but it is, yes.

MR VALLY: What form did you manufacture CR gas in?

DR MIJBURGH: We supplied powder to the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Other than being responsible for the budget and the finances of Delta-G, what other responsibilities did you have at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I was the General Manager of the company.

MR VALLY: You said you had no technical and manufacturing details, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I did not say that.

MR VALLY: Did you have knowledge of technical and manufacturing details?

DR MIJBURGH: Overall yes, I knew which products were manufactured and I know which projects were undertaken. The technical detail thereof I did not necessarily know about but I knew more or less what it was about.

MR VALLY: You weren't aware of technical details such as delivery of items?

DR MIJBURGH: I would not necessarily have been involved in the delivery of that, no.

MR VALLY: We you know that Doctor Wouter Basson travelled extensively, when Doctor Wouter Basson was not there to give you instructions, who did you get instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: I did not receive instructions on a daily basis.

MR VALLY: You are a military front company, I would assume the military is in charge, ultimately the military is in control over you?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: You know the Project Officer was Doctor Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: You know the Project Manager was the Surgeon General, General Knobel?

DR MIJBURGH: As you advised me, yes.

MR VALLY: You weren't aware of it before?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, but the term of calling him the Project Manager, for me it's about the term. Yes, the project fell under the control of the Surgeon General.

MR VALLY: Fine. Other than Doctor Basson, did you ever receive instructions from anyone else, the Surgeon General, General Neethling, anyone else?

DR MIJBURGH: General Neethling played no role in the control and management of the company, it was the CMC whose members I cannot recall. I cannot say that I received a specific instruction from any one of them. I reported to them from time to time.

MR VALLY: We've been told that close to 95% of the work that was done was done for the military, approximately 5% was private work, would you agree with that estimate?

DR MIJBURGH: In the early days of the company, yes, later the relationship changed.

MR VALLY: "Early days" you're meaning from 1985 to when?

DR MIJBURGH: I would say to about '87/'88. 95%/5% I cannot say or differ from you, I have no figures to prove t his at the moment.

MR VALLY: What precisely was the role of the Surgeon General regarding Delta-G? How did he exercise control over you?

DR MIJBURGH: Via his Project Officer.

MR VALLY: Yes. What if you decided to manufacture mandrax and ecstasy on a large scale to make private money, how would he know?

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Mijburgh?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know, we did not do it so I wouldn't know how he would have known something like that. It's speculative, I would have to speculate over it.

MR VALLY: Well you did make ecstasy and mandrax on a large scale, the question is what for? If there was a private frolic by any of your employees, which there was at one stage besides the thousand, you are aware of the attempt to manufacture ecstasy privately?

DR MIJBURGH: I understood that they did not, or at least at that stage the investigation showed that they tried to manufacture the substance but they were not successful but this was immediately stopped when they realised what was going on.

MR VALLY: You're aware it happened?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you lay criminal charges against any of these people?

DR MIJBURGH: No, because there was no proof that any criminality had taken place because they were not manufacturing MDMA.

MR VALLY: Was mercuric oxide used as an ingredient in the manufacture of ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know.

MR VALLY: You were not aware of purchasing mercuric oxide?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did you know Mr Kidger?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: As you aware that Doctor Kidger delivered mercuric oxide to Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Would you have been aware of deliveries of such items?

DR MIJBURGH: Not necessarily.

MR VALLY: Who'd be responsible for that?

DR MIJBURGH: The storeman or store personnel or the production manager there, depending where the order was placed.

MR VALLY: And who would sign the cheque for payment of that?

DR MIJBURGH: Depending on the size of the cheque, the Financial Manager or Director. I might have had to put a second signature on the cheque.

MR VALLY: Who was the Financial Director at the time?

DR MIJBURGH: When did the transaction take place?

MR VALLY: I don't have an exact date right now.

DR MIJBURGH: It could have been Mr Andrè Redelinghuis or Mr Ben van den Berg.

MR VALLY: And Mr van den Berg was also one of the Directors of Medchem Technologies?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: Did you have to check anything out with the Surgeon General before you did it? Could you spend limitless funds for example?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Was there a limit which you could spend without consulting with the Surgeon General?

DR MIJBURGH: There was a budget submitted to the Surgeon General at the beginning or each year before the company was privatised, and during that period it was a detailed budget to a reasonable level and money was spent within those parameters.

MR VALLY: Approximately how much annually was the budget?

DR MIJBURGH: It varied. When the contract was cancelled finally I think it was approximately twelve million a year. I do not have the specific amount but it started at a much lower amount at the initial stages of the company.

MR VALLY: Have you had an opportunity to have a look at the list of front companies which I gave you earlier?

DR MIJBURGH: I looked through it quickly, I did not study it in detail.

MR VALLY: Well maybe I should reserve that question for after lunch then when you have an opportunity to do so. Do you know Mr Corrie Botha?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: What was his position?

DR MIJBURGH: He was the Production Manager at Delta-G.

MR VALLY: When you asked him to manufacture methaqualone - sorry, are you aware that you asked him to manufacture methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot remember, I do not know whether he was Production Manager at that stage when methaqualone was made. It might have been Doctor Johan Botha at that stage, I'm not sure.

MR VALLY: We've got it - from our investigations, it indicates that you asked him sometime after 1988.

DR MIJBURGH: That's possible.

MR VALLY: He states that you gave him a recipe which was the formula for mandrax.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, it seems once again that there is possibly a statement from this person and if that's the case then we're in the same position, that this document was not made available to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you relying on a document Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: There is no document regarding this issue, it was in investigations, in discussions etc. We have no statement from Mr Corrie Botha. Oh, I beg your pardon ...[intervention]

MR VAN ZYL: I accept it as such.

MR VALLY: There is a statement which my learned friend does have.

DR MIJBURGH: There is a statement.

MR VAN ZYL: I'm not sure whether there is a statement or not. Mr Vally has just said that there isn't one, that this was discussions and now he says that there is one.

MR VALLY: Let me correct it myself, he's playing games Mr Chair. He has got the document, there is a document.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Vally, one time we have a statement, the next time we don't, now we have a statement, can we be referred to the statement, all of us?

MR VALLY: In any event, did you ever give ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a statement?

MR VALLY: Yes, apparently there is which was given to them. This is what I'm advised Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. Will you return to this when we are able to?

MR VALLY: However, that statement is not relevant for this particular question, apparently this arose from discussions with Mr Corrie Botha. But my question is very simple, did you ever give him a formula for manufacturing of methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: No, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: The budget issue, the budget that you worked from when you were Managing Director of Delta-G, did the Surgeon General approve of the budget initially?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did he check regularly whether you kept within the confines of the budget?

DR MIJBURGH: Within our reports, yes. We reported back in writing and sometimes orally on a quarterly basis and on a monthly basis the financial reports were handed to the Project Officer. Whether it went to the Surgeon General I cannot say.

MR VALLY: Other than the financial reporting, what other reporting did you do to the Surgeon General?

DR MIJBURGH: The CMC we reported in general about the activities of the company.

MR VALLY: What sort of activities?

DR MIJBURGH: What was undertaken, what was produced.

MR VALLY: Quantities and details?

DR MIJBURGH: I would have thought yes, that it would have been included.

MR VALLY: And to whom it was delivered?

DR MIJBURGH: The written report I think was given to Doctor Basson most of the time. On occasion I also gave a written report to the CMC.

MR VALLY: You personally appeared before the ...[intervention]

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, especially regarding the budget at the end of the previous year and when we had to submit a budget for the next year.

MR VALLY: Did you also manufacture BZ at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: Not that I'm aware of. Can I just correct that, maybe not in large quantities. As part of one of the projects, small quantities might have been manufactured on laboratory scale.

MR VALLY: We were advised by Doctor Koekemoer that there was production of BZ and its analogues at Delta-G.

DR MIJBURGH: There was a project, that's why I say on a very small scale. We are talking about a gram scale, this might possibly have been manufactured. There was not a production process that BZ was manufactured at the plant.

MR VALLY: Who would have requested Doctor Koekemoer to manufacture BZ?

DR MIJBURGH: It was part of one of the projects.

MR VALLY: Would you have made that request?

DR MIJBURGH: Excuse, I am not with you.

MR VALLY: Would you have made the request of Doctor Koekemoer regarding BZ?

DR MIJBURGH: No, there a project with the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: I understand.

DR MIJBURGH: And that specific request would have come from the Defence Force, from Doctor Basson.

MR VALLY: Yes, but you were Managing Director, would it then have come through you?

DR MIJBURGH: Not necessarily.

MR VALLY: Did people give direct instructions to people employed at Delta-G from the military?

DR MIJBURGH: Clients did from time to time work with some of the researchers, yes.

MR VALLY: And as Managing Director would you know?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, most of the time I would have found out about it.

MR VALLY: Let's understand when you talk about clients, you were a military front company and 95% of the work in the early period was military work.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: The reason I'm asking this question is, were you aware of a gas attack allegedly using BZ on Mozambican troops?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: There have been a number of code names that were used for chemicals produced at Delta-G, I was wondering if you could possibly help us. First of all we know Mosrefcat: M-O-S-R-E-F-C-A-T was a code name for methaqualone and mandrax.

DR MIJBURGH: It was for methaqualone.

MR VALLY: You are aware of that?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And Baxil for MDMA?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: What we call ecstasy. There are certain code names such as FP/003 which is referred to in certain documents, TRC61, 75 and 78 but would you, before we look at these documents, recognise such a code if I say FP/003?

DR MIJBURGH: FP/003 was CR.

MR VALLY: And FP/00T52?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I do not know which one that was.

MR VALLY: And FP/00B50?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know specifically what that is.

MR VALLY: FP/00/MO1?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, Mosrefcat, that was methaqualone.

MR VALLY: Okay, so we have two code names for methaqualone. And FP/00/B51?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I do not know what that is.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us how many military front companies or the names of the military front companies where you were a Director?

DR MIJBURGH: Only of Delta-G.

MR VALLY: Do you have TRC14 with you? I think you attorney would have it, I'm not sure it was in your list.

MR VAN ZYL: Could Mr Vally just identify the document then we can know if we have it.

DR MIJBURGH: TRC14?

MR VALLY: 14.

DR MIJBURGH: No, it's not one of the documents on my list. I did not receive that.

MR VALLY: Mr van Zyl, in your bundle, I'm sure you do have it.

MR VAN ZYL: If you can just please identify the heading or something.

MR VALLY: Oh, I beg your pardon. It's TRC14, it's dated the 25th of March 1992, it's on the Defence Force letterhead. It says

"Intelligence Division"

MR VAN ZYL: Advocate Arendse has made the first page available to us. It's once again a document which was not given to the witness. I would like to ask him to ask his questions about this document after lunch so that my client can have the opportunity to peruse it. It's quite a thick document and we only have the first page.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, anything to say to that?

MR VALLY: There is a very simple question. If my learned friend needs to consult with his client on that I will accept it but maybe if I ask the question then he can make that decision.

MR VAN ZYL: If we could just get a complete copy of the document then he can ask the question and the witness can answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, go ahead.

MR VALLY: If you look at the second page of that document, the heading is

"Project Jotta"

do you see that? On the left it says:

"Medchem Beheer Organisasie"

My question is, it appears to us that it seemed to be a military front company under Project Jotta. Do you still maintain that Medchem was not a military front company?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Is it correctly sighted in this diagram on the second page of that document?

DR MIJBURGH: There is a relationship between Medchem and Delta-G Scientific, exactly what it means I do not know but yes, Delta-G was a subsidiary of Medchem.

MR VALLY: Well, maybe we can answer this question after lunch when you read the whole document but our understanding is that this document deals with front companies formed under Project Jotta and that Medchem was one of them.

DR MIJBURGH: I never regarded it as a military front organisation. The Defence Force never had any say in its budget or the spending of its money. It did conclude contracts for the Defence Force but it had no say in the management.

MR VALLY: Can you explain one thing to me, I'm quite curious about how you as a medical doctor shortly after your graduation get involved with Delta-G and from there you are a director of a large number of other companies? I say of a large number, we know of at least three thus far. Of your own initiative, did you create all these companies?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Of your own capital?

DR MIJBURGH: Mr Vally, some of the companies I bought an interest in, some of them I established myself such as Medchem Technologies and Medchem Pharmaceuticals which was established with a specific objective and that was to market pharmaceuticals and to sell them.

MR VALLY: You see, can you tell us of other front companies that you are a director of, front companies, only Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I was not a director of any other front company.

MR VALLY: There are a number of questions I need to ask but there are certain documents I need to give you so maybe I'll ask the Chair for an early lunch and we can return from lunch early if possible, but you have a list of all the companies I've given you. I need to know from you which ones you were linked with. I also need to know why is it that you specifically were involved in certain companies which seemed to be dealing almost exclusively, and I'm talking about Medchem Technologies, Medchem Pharmaceuticals, exclusively with the military? Is there a reason for that?

DR MIJBURGH: Medchem Pharmaceuticals did not only deal with the Defence Force nor Medchem Technologies.

MR VALLY: Are you saying their dealings were not primarily with the Defence Force?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you saying most of their business was outside the Defence Force?

DR MIJBURGH: No, it was not. Medchem Pharmaceuticals still exist today.

MR VALLY: Yes, no, my question was, were most of their dealings with the Defence Force, most of their contracts?

DR MIJBURGH: No. At a specific moment in time, possibly.

MR VALLY: At the time that they were created? At the time they were established?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I do not think so.

MR VALLY: As a medical doctor and knowing the abuse of for example mandrax in this country, did you ever raise your concerns that you were manufacturing mandrax, methaqualone on such a large scale, with anyone?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You were not concerned about it?

DR MIJBURGH: No, because I did not think that was what it was being used for.

MR VALLY: I ask you this question because it's relevant to this issue but apparently General Magnus Malan is your uncle?

DR MIJBURGH: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Did you ever raise any concerns about the work that you were doing at Delta-G with him?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Was he aware of what you were doing?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know.

MR VALLY: Did you meet him socially?

DR MIJBURGH: Very seldom, yes.

MR VALLY: Was Delta-G the only company you were involved in which was formally privatised?

DR MIJBURGH: Front company, yes.

MR VALLY: Were other companies privatised?

DR MIJBURGH: I was not involved in other companies which were privatised.

MR VALLY: Only Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: When you were part of Delta-G and it was privatised, did you make a big profit?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did you make any money at all?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You made nothing?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: You heard Doctor Swanepoel saying he made quite a few million rands out of the, that did not happen at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Just before we break, because there are certain documents I need to give my learned friend so that I can question Doctor Mijburgh on, we've heard that you people led a life of real luxury and when I say: "you people" I mean people at the various front companies. Did you make regular overseas trips?

DR MIJBURGH: From time to time, not so regularly.

MR VALLY: Time to time, once a month, twice a month?

DR MIJBURGH: No, once or twice a year, perhaps three times a year.

MR VALLY: Did you in any way get any other benefits other than your salary from Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, at this point I just need to - sorry, let me ask one question or one issue rather. Did you know Doctor Jan Lourens?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the evidence he gave that he was asked to take a certain instrument which could inject poison overseas and deliver it?

DR MIJBURGH: I heard of his testimony, yes.

MR VALLY: Were you aware of that before that?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did no-one ever mention to you that he was making those substances, those items?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Were you ever asked to deliver anything by Doctor Wouter Basson overseas?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Never?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: When you made trips overseas, why did you make those trips?

DR MIJBURGH: I mainly did marketing for Kowolsky International and I went to Poland for this. We exported wine to Poland in mass. Kowolsky was a large importer of machine equipment so it was mostly to meet suppliers.

MR VALLY: I see, so you went in your private capacity?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I went for the company.

MR VALLY: For Kowolsky, which had nothing to do with Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I went for Medchem. I only went overseas once for Delta-G.

MR VALLY: And for Medchem?

DR MIJBURGH: For Medchem I went overseas a few times, I cannot remember how many times.

MR VALLY: Doctor Lourens testified that you had initially recruited him to join Special Operations.

DR MIJBURGH: I introduced him to Doctor Basson, yes.

MR VALLY: At whose request did you do this, did you do it out of your own initiative?

DR MIJBURGH: We were friends from school days, we were together at school. He said that he was unhappy in the service of the Air Force and was interested in bio-medical engineering and he wanted to be transferred to SAMS and I introduced him to Doctor Basson.

MR VALLY: Did you ever work on any projects with him?

DR MIJBURGH: With Doctor Lourens?

MR VALLY: Doctor Lourens, yes.

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did you ever do any projects at SRD?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: At Protechnic?

DR MIJBURGH: I was a director of Protechnic, a non-executive director so I was not involved directly in any projects.

MR VALLY: You were director at Protechnic?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: How did this come about?

DR MIJBURGH: I obtained a share in Protechnic.

MR VALLY: How did you come by this share?

DR MIJBURGH: I bought it.

MR VALLY: You bought a share in Protechnic?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct. Not I personally, Medchem bought it.

MR VALLY: Medchem?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: When Doctor Lourens came back from a trip to the United Kingdom and informed both you and Doctor Basson that he almost poisoned himself by mistake, do you recall the conversation he had with you?

DR MIJBURGH: The first time I heard of it was when he testified in that regard.

MR VALLY: He never told you such a thing before?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware, and we've discussed it at great length, the shopping list, the anthrax and the cigarettes, the paraquat in the shampoo, you know that list I'm talking about?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, it's a document which apparently was discussed.

MR VALLY: Do you have any knowledge of whatsoever?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Never?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Was it the first time you heard about it at this hearing?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you ever get back any reports on experiments carried out at RRL on primeds?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Involving the substances you manufactured at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You've never seen that?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did you know any of the vets that worked at RRL?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, I knew some of the people, I do not know exactly who you're referring to. I knew some of them from the days of the Defence Force. There was a Doctor James Davies who worked there who was in the Defence Force at the same time as I was. I knew Doctor Immelman and Doctor Daan Goosen who was also a veterinary surgeon.

MR VALLY: Did you ever pay them social visits?

DR MIJBURGH: In the early days when Roodeplaat had just been established I was responsible as medical officer for the emergency services with them and that stage, I'm now talking about 1984, I cannot recall the date specifically ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: When you went there at that stage and you were the medical officer for them, what ...[intervention]

DR MIJBURGH: No, I was not their medical officer, I was responsible for the establishment of an emergency medical service. I would have managed the service had there ever been an accident.

MR VALLY: And what were you preparing yourself for, what kind of emergencies?

DR MIJBURGH: At that stage at Roodeplaat it was not for anything specific, it was early days, they still worked from a farmhouse. We would have acted on their behalf for industrial accidents.

MR VALLY: Nothing to do with Biological Warfare?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I knew that they were going to do research about Biological Warfare but these were in the early days of Roodeplaat. I had no specific detail about what they did at that stage.

MR VALLY: What knowledge did you have as to what they were manufacturing or producing?

DR MIJBURGH: I had no knowledge of what they did.

MR VALLY: How could you prepare for medical emergencies if you didn't know what the items were?

DR MIJBURGH: As I said, we would have been prepared for industrial accidents. I cannot remember what we were prepared for, I think it was in '84, perhaps early '85.

MR VALLY: Are you a director of Data Images?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, and you were not clear on this, but from the document we showed you Medchem Technologies changed its name to Data Image Information Systems and you advised us that - are you the sole director of Data Image Information Systems?

DR MIJBURGH: At the moment, yes.

MR VALLY: And at the time it was formed?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm not sure who else was, I think Doctor Ben van den Berg was also a director.

MR VALLY: And Doctor Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: No, he was never a director.

MR VALLY: Do you remember the contract whereby you had to put all the information acquired about Chemical and Biological Warfare onto compact discs or optical discs?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: That was your company that was given that contract?

DR MIJBURGH: Data Image had that contract, yes.

MR VALLY: And this is these famous disks which are in a safe which the Deputy President and someone else has a key to?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know what happened to these discs.

MR VALLY: And the information that you put on the disks, what happened to it, the sources of the information?

DR MIJBURGH: The hard copies were destroyed, they were shredded.

MR VALLY: And who determined that they were destroyed, did you do so?

DR MIJBURGH: No. There were people who worked for Data Images who did this.

MR VALLY: But this was your company?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you ever see what was on these optical discs?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Do you know of anyone who has seen what's on these optical discs?

DR MIJBURGH: The people who scan these things in.

MR VALLY: And who were the people who did that?

DR MIJBURGH: There was a Doctor Klaus Sotta who was involved, a Mrs Susan, I can't remember her surname at this moment.

MR VALLY: And Doctor Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: He was not involved in the scanning in of this as far as I can recall.

MR VALLY: So he wasn't involved at all?

DR MIJBURGH: No, he was part of that project in the sense that he was the person who gave the instruction.

MR VALLY: What date was this?

DR MIJBURGH: It must have been approximately 1992/'93. I'm speaking under correction now. It could have been later as well. I do not have documentation to prove this.

MR VALLY: The person responsible for the project you say was Doctor Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: He was the Project Officer, yes.

MR VALLY: Project Officer, where all this information is put on optical discs?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Through Data Images.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: I see. And you don't know what's on those discs?

DR MIJBURGH: All the research documentation of Delta-G. I'm sure, I do not know whether anything of Roodeplaat was put on this but Delta-G's research results, all the reports, were captured in totality on those discs.

MR VALLY: Did you ever look at those discs yourself?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Since those items were captured on a disc and locked up in a safe, are you aware of anyone who has actually looked at those discs?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know.

MR VALLY: How is it that Data Image Information Systems got this contract?

DR MIJBURGH: There was a request that this be scanned in and I think that was during the period when the research was on strike and it was dealt with, or had to be kept together in a manageable way.

MR VALLY: Who did the request come from?

DR MIJBURGH: From the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: And how did it go to Data Image Information Systems?

DR MIJBURGH: Excuse me?

MR VALLY: How did the instruction, how did you get - I assume they paid you for this?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: How did you get the contract?

DR MIJBURGH: I'm speaking under correction, but if I remember correctly there was a front company Sefmed who had computer equipment. This company was disbanded and Data Image bought all their computer equipment and their general office equipment and this front company was closed down.

This was done per contract so that for the duration of the contract, approximately 18 months, all the research information - and I cannot remember which companies it included, whether it was Roodeplaat or just Delta-G. It included Defence Force documentation as well. There were masses of printed literature which was also scanned in and it was not only from Delta-G, there was Defence Force documentation

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Dr Mijburgh I gave your attorneys a document over lunch and it was minutes of a meeting held on the 2nd of December 1994. Have you had a chance to look at that document?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes I have.

MR VALLY: Now you advised us you were not aware of the purchase of methaqualone from Croatia. Is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you see point 4 on there?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: It has to do with the claim for travel by you, D J Truter and C Malo and it was according to this to give support to Brigadier Basson during the handling of his matter in Switzerland and or to give evidence there. Do you see that?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: What were you going to give evidence about?

DR MIJBURGH: I was never there to testify. I was there in support of Dr Basson when he was arrested in Switzerland. I was under the impression that it was in connection with financial documents, forged financial documents as a result of which he was arrested.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that this was a transaction where a few million dollars, US dollars was involved in paying the Croatians for the purchase of 500kg of Methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: What were the financial documents in relation to?

DR MIJBURGH: So far as I understood it there were bonds which had been forged and which were found in Dr Basson's possession on previous occasion. This refers specifically to the time he went back for the court case and I then went with him to assist him should he be rearrested.

MR VALLY: What was your task going to be besides giving moral support?

DR MIJBURGH: To act as a communication channel. The whole case was treated as being extremely confidential and I was to be a communication channel.

MR VALLY: To whom?

DR MIJBURGH: To the defence force.

MR VALLY: Who specifically?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember specifically whom I would have contacted but I am assuming that I probably would have liaised with Colonel Ben Steyn.

MR VALLY: But there was Mr Truter there and Mr Malo there.

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think all those people were there at the same time. I think this refers to separate occasions. As far as I know I was the only person present on this particular journey.

MR VALLY: Well the explanation relates to all three of you as you can see from that minute.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes correct.

MR VALLY: What I need to know is are you saying that at all times you were ignorant of the fact that the financial aspect of this transaction related to the purchase of Methaqualone from Croatia? You did not know this?

DR MIJBURGH: No I had no knowledge of that. It is the first I have heard of it.

MR VALLY: It sounds highly improbably that you would go all the way to Switzerland to support Dr Basson and not know this (...indistinct) fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any reaction to that?

DR MIJBURGH: No Chairperson I was under the impression that he had been arrested for possession of forged financial documents.

MR VALLY: You mean you never discussed the case with Dr Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You went all the way to Switzerland to support a man for a case and you didn't discuss the case with him?

DR MIJBURGH: What was told to me, what he specifically told me was that he had been arrested for possession of forged documents.

MR VALLY: That is it, that is all he told you?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you are not aware of 500kg of Methaqualone being purchased from Croatia and delivered to Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: So to all intents and purposes that 500kg of Methaqualone may have gone somewhere else but it did not come to Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I am not aware of the fact that it went to Delta-G.

MR VALLY: Let's go on to (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sooka?

MS SOOKA: Dr Mijburgh can you tell me what the form of support was that you were rendering to Dr Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: I drove there with him and he appeared in court. I cannot remember exactly how many days the court hearing took. It wasn't published, made known in South Africa and there was the fear that he would be arrested again because he had been arrested on a previous occasion. So I had to communicate back to South Africa in this regard.

MS SOOKA: But you are not a lawyer per se. You are a doctor.

DR MIJBURGH: No I was purely there as a communication channel. I was not there to be a legal support for him.

MS SOOKA: So it was in the nature of emotional and friendly support?

DR MIJBURGH: No I think it was because the matter was so extremely sensitive that is why I was asked to accompany him. It was extremely confidential matter and treated as such and it was not commonly known in South Africa that he had been arrested.

MS SOOKA: You see what I find surprising is that if the matter was one which was so sensitive and you were supposed to be the communication channel then I find it very difficult to believe that you were not entrusted with the details of what the matter was actually about.

DR MIJBURGH: I had nothing to do with the handling of the case itself.

MS SOOKA: Yes I just find that it is very difficult to believe that you would be the person who would communicate with people in South Africa but you don't know the nature of the charges that are actually being brought against Mr Basson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Dr Mijburgh when this happened you said you were communicating with the South African defence force or more specifically with South African medical services. Now as I understand it from what you said to us earlier on you were already the MD of several companies. What was your relationship to the army at that time? Were you still working for the army?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

DR RANDERA: Can we understand why they asked you? We all understand that you are a friend of Dr Basson's. You are not working in the army any longer. You denied being a member of special forces. What was the relationship you had? Because at that time the front companies were being either sold off and you certainly have taken large - you have shares in many companies. So what is your role that you are playing? You don't have a position within the defence forces but yet somebody approached you, you don't even know who it is to go on a trip to be a communicator between the South African army and what is happening in Switzerland. Can you make us understand how this is happening?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember who asked me to go with. It might have been Dr Basson himself. If I look at the fact that there was a claim submitted at a later stage it also meant that I paid my own expenses at that stage and that I recovered it later. I don't know whether things perhaps happened so quickly that somebody had to go with him on a basis of urgency. But I will always be a liaison person. It was an extremely sensitive and confidential matter. Perhaps I did it as a friend. But I could communicate with the defence force if he was rearrested.

DR RANDERA: But who was going to tell you because you can't remember who you were supposed to be communicating with? Was Dr Basson going to tell you who to communicate with?

DR MIJBURGH: No his attorney. There was an attorney acting for him in Switzerland. I can't remember his name now.

DR RANDERA: And you saying that you still had no role within the defence forces at that time. You played no (...intervention)

DR MIJBURGH: I had no role in the defence force any longer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: These forged bonds which Dr Basson allegedly had with him can you give us a bit more detail on that?

DR MIJBURGH: No I can't.

MR VALLY: All you know is he had false bonds, he was arrested?

DR MIJBURGH: That is what he told me.

MR VALLY: He asked you as a friend to go with him to be a communicator?

DR MIJBURGH: If he was to be arrested again yes.

MR VALLY: You didn't know who you had to contact in South Africa?

DR MIJBURGH: I would have contacted the defence force if he was arrested.

MR VALLY: Some one in the defence force? You weren't sure who?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember specifically no. I would have to speculate yes.

MR VALLY: Dr Mijburgh you are being obtuse. I put to you that you know a lot more about this involvement in the defence force in the purchase of Methaqualone than you are admitting. What is your response to that?

DR MIJBURGH: That is not true. It is the first time I have heard of this transaction.

MR VALLY: But you knew that you had to send the bill to the army to pay for you flight?

DR MIJBURGH: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: You knew that you had to send the account for your flight to the army?

DR MIJBURGH: I did submit a claim at some point and the claim was approved and I was recompensed.

MR VALLY: You knew you had to do that?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember specifically whether I knew it before hand or not.

MR VALLY: But you knew it after you came back?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know at what stage I knew. I submitted a claim and I was compensated.

MR VALLY: Who paid for your flight?

DR MIJBURGH: Initially I paid but then the defence force paid me out again.

MR VALLY: Let's go onto another issue. I have given you a list, I have headed it list of possible military front companies or companies related thereto. There is 102 companies on it. Do you have that list?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Have you been able to identify which companies you were a director of?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Please tell us?

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G Scientific.

MR VALLY: That is number?

DR MIJBURGH: 25. Ecotox (Pty) Ltd, Kowolsky International, Lifestyle Management.

MR VALLY: Give me the number as well please?

DR MIJBURGH: 41, 44, I am not sure about 45. 48, 51, 53 Medchem Pharmaceuticals. 64 Protechnic. 79 Truned Investments was changed to a different name. I don't think I was a director of that companies. I think those are the companies as far as I am concerned that I can remember that I was a director of.

MR VALLY: Number 14 BSI Medchem?

DR MIJBURGH: That is not an existing company. I don't know where that comes from.

MR VALLY: Number 26 DG Chemic (Pty) Ltd.?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know such a company DG Chemicals.

MR VALLY: Number 54 Medchem Sports International (Pty) Ltd.?

DR MIJBURGH: I might have been a director. I can't remember. I don't think I was.

MR VALLY: Number 56 Midrand Consolidated Investments (Pty) Ltd?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think I was a director of that company. I was a shareholder. But I don't think a director.

MR VALLY: Now (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally is it possible to ask Dr Mijburgh which companies he was shareholder in other than those he was a director of?

MR VALLY: Certainly. Dr Mijburgh?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think I was a personal shareholder of any of these companies but there were cross-shareholdings between the companies and those that I mentioned of which I was a director I think were either Medchem Consolidated Investments I was a shareholder or the family trust which I founded to deal with shareholdings was a shareholder. I don't think there are any others.

MR VALLY: These companies that you have identified where you were a director were they involved in contracts with the defence force?

DR MIJBURGH: Some of them yes.

MR VALLY: Most of them?

DR MIJBURGH: I didn't count specifically. Can I mention those who were involved in contracts?

MR VALLY: Please do.

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G.

MR VALLY: Let's talk about - let me give you the numbers. Number 14 you say you were not sure?

DR MIJBURGH: They did not have - Medchem does not exist.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon. Well let's talk about number 25.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes it had - Delta-G Scientific it had contract.

MR VALLY: 26?

DR MIJBURGH: This company is not known to me.

MR VALLY: 27?

DR MIJBURGH: Ecotox as far as I know did not have defence force contract.

MR VALLY: What did they do?

DR MIJBURGH: It was founded as a co-operation agreement between Delta-G, Medchem, Protechnic to render services in connection with air pollution specifically in connection with the sick building syndrome.

MR VALLY: So let's just stop there. If it had dealings with Protechnic and Delta-G who we know is a military front company it certainly had contact with defence force that way.

DR MIJBURGH: Ecotox?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR MIJBURGH: No it had no contact with the defence force.

MR VALLY: It didn't do any work for the defence force?

DR MIJBURGH: Not as far as I can recall.

MR VALLY: Fine, go on number 41?

DR MIJBURGH: Kowolsky had no defence contracts.

MR VALLY: Except when you used the name sometimes when the (...intervention)

DR MIJBURGH: Yes but that was a inter-group transaction.

MR VALLY: Well it was a subsidiary of Medchem you said?

DR MIJBURGH: Of Medchem Consolidated Investments.

MR VALLY: Right we will come to Medchem now. Lifestyle Management?

DR MIJBURGH: They had defence contracts yes.

MR VALLY: Lifestyle Management Properties, 45?

DR MIJBURGH: No that was an asset company which just owned certain land and property.

MR VALLY: Maison de Medchem?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did it have any government contracts?

DR MIJBURGH: Maison de Medchem?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR MIJBURGH: No that was a company which I established in co-operation with a lady and we went into ladies clothing. Not very successfully I might add. There was a certain ladies clothing boutique operating from this.

MR VALLY: Strange name for Medchem but let's go on. You see let's just talk about Maison de Medchem for a minute. Some of your friends from the CBW programme were involved there. There is a Johannes Koekemoer there?

DR MIJBURGH: Maison de Medchem?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR MIJBURGH: Not as far as I can recall. Unless we used the company as a shelf company at a later stage but this was a boutique.

MR VALLY: Well Jan Lourens is mentioned as a director?

DR MIJBURGH: Mr Vally I think this company - you see when the boutique business was disbanded the company actually was not disbanded. And I think that is the company which had a name change and it became Ecotox if I remember correctly but I stand to be corrected.

MR VALLY: So a lot of the people here; Jan Lourens, Johannes Koekemoer, your name, Philip Mijburgh people who come from the Delta-G or RRL basically people involved in the CBW programme?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know that there were any Roodeplaat people involved.

MR VALLY: Well are you saying only Delta-G people were involved?

DR MIJBURGH: In Ecotox specifically Delta-G and Protechnic people were involved.

MR VALLY: They were involved?

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G and Protechnic yes.

MR VALLY: I see. Alright so it wasn't simply a boutique selling women's clothes any longer?

DR MIJBURGH: I think the company was used for other purposes later.

MR VALLY: Tell us what?

DR MIJBURGH: To house or accommodate Ecotox.

MR VALLY: I see. Medchem Consolidated Investments?

DR MIJBURGH: It was the holding company. In other words the chief or main company which had shares in most of these other companies Delta-G amongst others Medchem Technologies, Medchem Pharmaceuticals. So it was the holding company.

MR VALLY: Alright. We have heard about Medchem Pharmaceuticals. You had some contracts from the defence force. Is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Medchem Sports International?

DR MIJBURGH: Medchem Sports International was a company which bought property at the Fancourt Golf development.

MR VALLY: Was it before it went bankrupt?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so yes.

MR VALLY: Any contracts with defence force?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Midrand Consolidated Investments?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Protechnic we know about. It did have contracts with the defence force. Is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And that is my list. Now these are the companies that we have gone through which specifically you were a director of and in the case of one or two of them a shareholder of separately. Why is it that you are a director of a large, relatively large number of companies most of whom who have contracts with the defence force? Can you explain how that came about?

DR MIJBURGH: I obtained shares in some of these companies. Some of them had already had contracts with the defence force at that stage.

MR VALLY: Yes but how did you come to their attention? How did they come to your attention? I mean were you directed towards them? Did you just research them? Is it out of the blue that you decided to?

DR MIJBURGH: Most of the people who worked in these companies were known to me. Mr Jan Lourens I have known since school days for instance in the Protechnic case. Lifestyle Management their people I knew from my defence force days.

MR VALLY: Because I put it to you that whether you called it front companies or private companies these were all companies which were closely linked with and closely associated in some form or the other with the defence force.

DR MIJBURGH: Some of them yes.

MR VALLY: And that you were a more active player in the whole subterfuge the front companies, the facades in the projects of the defence force than you are making out.

DR MIJBURGH: I can't agree with you. The only front company according to my definition in this group of companies was Delta-G Scientific.

MR VALLY: Yet these other companies had contracts with the defence force?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: That they were engaged in activities which was private in a sense that you wouldn't want it to be disclosed to the public, some of them.

DR MIJBURGH: I think that was common knowledge that they had defence force contracts. Delta-G's connection with the defence force wasn't common knowledge but Lifestyle Management and Protechnic's connections were quite openly known.

MR VALLY: Your involvement in these companies as a director were you involved in day to day activities at all?

DR MIJBURGH: No. It depends on what you are referring to?

MR VALLY: Well Delta-G and Medchem?

DR MIJBURGH: Medchem Consolidated Investments the holding company I was involved in the day to day management. As far as the others were concerned I was a non-executive director. Even Delta-G I was a non-executive director after 1989.

MR VALLY: Was Dr Wouter Basson involved with you in any of these companies?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did he direct you to become a director or suggest you become a director of any of these companies?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Has he been getting any commission from you or any share-holding or any quiet keep-backs?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You researched these companies yourself and discovered that you wanted to buy shares in them?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: How old were you when you started acquiring directorships of companies?

DR MIJBURGH: I didn't collect directorships. I made investments in certain companies and I have provided the capital myself and then I became a director where it looked like a good investment. And there was a synergy between some of these companies which made it worthwhile to be an investor.

MR VALLY: I assume you inherited a fair amount of money?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: So straight from the medical school you go into the army. From the army after a few years, 1979 you qualify as a doctor, 1985 you are asked to go to Delta-G, a military front company. From then on you start accumulating directorships in the majority of companies which have contracts with the defence force. How do you explain this?

DR MIJBURGH: I made investments in certain companies which in certain cases were worthwhile and other cases not.

MR VALLY: Where did you get all this money from? You were working for one company, a military front company.

DR MIJBURGH: Mr Vally I might remind you there was fairly active stock exchange in the early eighties. And I like many other people played the stock exchange and worked with properties. I made a couple of very good investments in terms of houses that I bought. So I did make money.

MR VALLY: So your investment came from your own speculation on the stock market?

DR MIJBURGH: I borrowed money, I speculated with property yes.

MR VALLY: I see. There are a number of vague areas which worry me. The one is this issue of as managing director of Delta-G your lack of information is staggering when you consider the security risk. I put to you a number of issues. For example you didn't know what purpose you were manufacturing Methaqualone for. All you know is you got an order from the army. That's correct?

DR MIJBURGH: The defence force indicated that they wanted to develop it as an incapacitant. That was part of the instruction which we got from the defence force.

MR VALLY: Who in the defence force gave you that instruction?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember who specifically.

MR VALLY: Precisely. Your military front company, big order, a 1000kg and you can't tell me who gave you the order.

DR MIJBURGH: The defence force placed the order and the CMC was given instruction about the manufacture of the substance which was mentioned by name and the CMC had fairly senior defence force officers who indicated that they were aware of the project. So I assume that it was an approved project.

MR VALLY: You only had contact with the grouping once or twice a year as you put to us. They couldn't have given you the order to manufacture it. Who gave you the order to manufacture it? It is a very simple question.

DR MIJBURGH: The CMC probably gave it to me.

MR VALLY: But you only met them once or twice a year. Are you saying in that once or twice a year that is when you got the order?

DR MIJBURGH: Probably.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that is highly improbable. Highly improbable. That you know who gave you the order and for whatever reason because of your involvement, deep involvement in this military front company that you are not disclosing what you know. What is your response to that?

DR MIJBURGH: No I am sorry I can't recall specifically who placed that order.

MR VALLY: Is there besides the Ecstasy which you are aware of that General Knobel accepted the offer that was made to him - is there any order that you are aware of that came from the defence force as to who placed it with you? Any order?

DR MIJBURGH: No I am not with you.

MR VALLY: Well how would you get orders?

DR MIJBURGH: CR was manufactured as part of the instruction of Delta-G. As part of the order of Delta-G. I can't tell you today who specifically placed the order for x tonnes of CR. I can't give you a person's name. It was built into a budget. It was a request of the defence force and was incorporated into the budget and we got approval for the spending of that money of that budget.

MR VALLY: You have indicated to us that the overall control was by this group of senior army generals. You have also indicated to us that you only met them once or twice a year if that. I need to know from you who supervised what you people were doing at Delta-G? Who watched you?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think anybody was breathing down our neck to supervise. The project leader was Dr Wouter Basson. So technical matters were discussed with Wouter Basson as well as administrative matters. And that was done at regular intervals.

MR VALLY: And how often was this?

DR MIJBURGH: At least once a month perhaps more often.

MR VALLY: And did he come to Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you reported to him what you were doing and he told you what to do?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And he didn't have to tell you where he got his instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: You assumed that it came from the defence force?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes I was never lead to understand anything else.

MR VALLY: And if he lied to you, you wouldn't know?

DR MIJBURGH: Perhaps I would have noticed that at a feedback session or a report back session because then the CMC would have indicated that we were doing something which they hadn't instructed us to do. That is why I submitted written reports and these reports I understood were sent to the CMC.

MR VALLY: You were aware of questions of financial impropriety around Dr Wouter Basson in 1991?

DR MIJBURGH: I read it in the press.

MR VALLY: You never asked him about it?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes but he didn't answer me.

MR VALLY: He just didn't answer you?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: And you accepted that?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Yet you are willing to tell us - and this is 1991, yet you are willing to tell us that you delivered a 1000kg of Ecstasy to him?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't remember that there were any question marks in 1991. If you give me the dates. I understood that it was much later that certain questions were raised around Dr Basson's activities.

MR VALLY: The first questions were in that period. The financial improprieties. The allegations regarding other aspects such as poisons, etc took place at a later date. However even those further allegations took place on a date before your company - again your company Data Images, Information Images of Images Information. I forget the name right now.

DR MIJBURGH: Data Image Information Systems.

MR VALLY: Data Image Informations Systems. Yet you were working with Dr Basson on putting all the information on chemical and biological warfare onto discs.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: But by that stage you were aware of questions being asked about him?

DR MIJBURGH: I can't recall that it was being asked at that stage already.

MR VALLY: Hadn't he just been retired from the defence force by ex-President de Klerk?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: So wasn't it a big question?

DR MIJBURGH: But he was entrusted with handling some more of these or the data gathering operation.

MR VALLY: By whom?

DR MIJBURGH: By the defence force I assume.

MR VALLY: Who specifically?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know.

MR VALLY: You see there are a number of issues which worry us. And the issues that worry us are that you a managing director of a plant which manufactured a 1000kg of Mandrax, of Methaqualone and a 1000kg of Ecstasy. You very loosely told us about I don't know who delivered it. Yes it may have been in the basement. Yes the defence force has got access to the basement. Yes they may have put tablets there. I don't know. And your vagueness I put it to you is intentional because in view of your primary position as managing director. In view of your tentacles in all these other companies, a lot of which have connections with the military that you were a much more important player in front facade set up by the military than you are putting forward to us right now. And I would like to hear your response to that?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not believe that I was.

MR VALLY: Did you make a lot of money from these companies that you were directors of?

DR MIJBURGH: I did make money, not a great deal.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of anyone who made money out of the manufacture of Ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: And Methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Is there in retrospect now that you are here today and you have read a lot of the evidence and you have heard some of the evidence yourself in retrospect do you believe that you did anything wrong in your involvement with the military front companies?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't believe I did.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair. I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Vally. Any cross-examination? Mr (...indistinct)?

COUNSEL: I have got no questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Brian?

MR CURRIN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL: Nothing thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions. Mr Cilliers? Any questions from the panel? Dr Wendy Orr.

DR ORR: Dr Mijburgh why did you study medicine?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't really know today. I didn't know what I wanted to study when I went to university. And medicine seemed an attractive option.

DR ORR: Because, I may be incorrect but it seems to me that you haven't actually practised clinical medicine for a very long time.

DR MIJBURGH: I haven't and I actually wanted to stop my studies in my 4th year but my father convinced me that it would be a rather stupid thing to do, to waste. That is why I did a B.Com later because commerce interested me more than medicine did.

DR ORR: So you would not describe yourself if someone said what is your profession you wouldn't say I am a doctor?

DR MIJBURGH: Not really.

DR ORR: When you graduated did you take any oaths, the Hippocratic Oath or the Declaration of Geneva or anything like that?

DR MIJBURGH: No we didn't.

DR ORR: Is that not done at the University of Pretoria?

DR MIJBURGH: It wasn't in my time. I believe they are doing it nowadays.

DR ORR: I see so you don't feel that you as a doctor had any ethical or moral duty which bound you to certain ways or practice?

DR MIJBURGH: I think doctors are bound in terms of their handling of patients, etc by certain norms.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think the question was more direct than that Mr Mijburgh. I think she was asking if you, as Dr Mijburgh, felt that you did not feel bound to any ethical codes of contact maybe by reason of the account that you never had to take an oath like the Hippocratic Oath or any of those oaths.

DR MIJBURGH: I don't think I am bound in a legal sense by them but I think in a moral sense yes.

DR ORR: And if you feel bound in a moral sense did you not have some moral questions or quibbles about the fact that you were the managing director of a company which was producing substances which were dangerous and are certainly liable to abuse and perhaps even potentially lethal?

DR MIJBURGH: I regarded my involvement in the chemical warfare programme and specifically the way in which Delta-G was involved did not cause this moral dilemma. I think that in terms of warfare or crowd control I think it is much more acceptable to use non-lethal methods such as possibly chemical methods. Rather than rubber bullets, etc.

DR ORR: When you were in this specific medical detachment of special forces or special operations, I forget the terminology - you say you provided support. Can you give us a bit more detail with that? And I will tell you why I ask this question. It is because Dr Lourens when he gave us his evidence said that when he was with that unit one of his jobs was to develop special equipment for instance guns with collapsible butts that doctors could carry in their bags. And I am obviously very interested to know what it was that doctors were doing that they needed this kind of equipment.

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot comment on that. I am not aware of the work that Dr Lourens did. But I was an ordinary medical officer in the sense that during training we assisted. We did sick-bay duties at the bases that I mentioned. There was a reconnaissance command at Phalaborwa and I worked for 4, 5 months in the sick-bay there where we dealt with the unit or managed the unit.

DR ORR: Why was it necessary to create a special division to do this? Could SAMS not have provided that service out of their normal, usual doctors who worked there?

DR MIJBURGH: I think that this had to do with the security aspects thereof. I think that these were doctors who were specially cleared because in the dealing with patients one would hear about certain operations and I think that this is why this was dealt in a special manner. And I must add that one of the services was a medical support assistance for an emergency support assistance for the chemical and biological warfare programme and as a result of the security regarding the project it was of cardinal importance everything that we ever did at Delta-G in terms of chemical warfare programme was measured regarding security.

DR ORR: And to your knowledge, and certainly in your own experience, the only thing that these medical people did was to provide medical services to the members of special forces and certainly had no need for guns with collapsible butts?

DR MIJBURGH: No I think that I don't know why a gun with a collapsible butt would be used except in a parachute operation where a small weapon was needed. Each soldier has a weapon with him when he goes to war even if he is a doctor.

DR ORR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Dr Mijburgh I want to ask a very general question actually. I know you have been through some very tough questioning today. I suppose there are three questions I would like to ask. One is remember the way we have been posing these questions is about you as a director of a front company and director of many companies but this is all taking place within a context. The context of political conflict in our country. The context of a revolutionary onslaught, Communist onslaught. Which brings me to my first question which is; what was your own understanding of that period and your particular involvement within this whole programme? Because again today we have talked about the defence force but the companies were set up with a specific purpose and that was to develop the chemical and biological warfare programme for South Africa at the time. What are you own understanding and your own involvement?

My second question is (...intervention)

DR MIJBURGH: Can I reply to the first one or do you want to ask all three?

DR RANDERA: Shall I just pose all three questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja ...(inaudible)

DR RANDERA: My second question is what responsibility are you taking actually yourself? Because again today one doesn't - I don't come away feeling that you have done anything wrong, that you saw yourself doing anything wrong at that time. And so what responsibility if any are you taking?

And the third question is; in retrospect are there any question marks that remain within your mind? I mean the questions have been posed about these capsules that were produced by your company and the possibility that those capsules contained either mandrax or ecstasy. Are these issues that concern you today? That there is a possibility - I am not asking you whether you think it was but are you left with question marks that clearly you haven't been able to give us those questions as the MD of this company? But in retrospect and in looking at the questions that have been posed to you today are there question marks in your own mind as to what was happening in your company?

DR MIJBURGH: In terms of my own involvement in the chemical warfare programme and seen in the light of the time and the period in which it took place it was for me as a member of SAMS and later as a member of Delta-G, the front company, I was brought under the impression that there was a specific threat against the country and more specifically against some of the members of the defence force in terms of chemical warfare. So in that respect I understood it as that we were rendering a service to the defence force.

And as I said to Dr Orr just now I didn't have a moral problem with what we were doing at Delta-G in a sense that I felt that although it was quite normally there was a major and emotional outcry regarding chemical and biological warfare those aspects with which we dealt with at Delta made possible more humane warfare in terms of incapacitants and crowd control measures, etc. I hope that answers the question about my own involvement.

Yes I am surely responsible in the sense that we developed certain substances. I always believed and I never had any reason to doubt that it was a well thought-out plan of action by the defence force. My contact with the defence whether in my capacity as managing director of Delta-G or otherwise I never thought that we were actually engaged in anything underhand or immoral.

And then yes as far as the third question is concerned, yes there are certain questions in our minds today. We are living in a different era and I would be very glad if these questions could be laid to rest at some time or another. You do have questions but I unfortunately don't have the answers.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sooka?

MS SOOKA: I think you haven't really in a sense dealt with the last question. And one of the things which I think is probably going to emerge from all of this is that a lot of these things, the Mandrax and the Ecstasy probably landed up on the streets because nobody seems to be able to tell us where it actually went. Do you in any sense I mean when one encapsulates Methaqualone is an expectation that it is going to be taken orally. Do you feel any sense of responsibility for the fact that these things could have landed up on the streets turning probably hundreds of people into drug addicts?

DR MIJBURGH: If that had happened I would be responsible. I hope it didn't.

MS SOOKA: But you are not sure?

DR MIJBURGH: No and that is why I said I have some questions.

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mijburgh you testified, you were asked questions about a number of doctors, scientists. And one of the people you were being asked about was Dr Deon Erasmus. Now I am not so sure what you said you know him but what is it that you know about Dr Deon Erasmus? How well did you know him?

DR MIJBURGH: Well we were on the defence force together and he was a commanding officer of 7 medical battalion. At some point I also knew him socially. We studied together, we played rugby together and he completed his studies a year after me. And we also ran marathons together.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank did he hold in the defence force?

DR MIJBURGH: His rank? Well I am not sure. I think he was a lieutenant-colonel when he left the defence force.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to Delta-G was it your evidence that he went into Infladel?

DR MIJBURGH: Please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: When you were at Delta-G was it your evidence that Deon Erasmus was involved in a company called Infladel?

DR MIJBURGH: I think at that stage he had the responsibility for medical emergency services and the equipment and so forths were purchased by Infladel. I don't think he was a director but he had an office there as far as I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he do any work for Delta-G Scientific?

DR MIJBURGH: Not that I am aware of.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he work? Did he work at the laboratory at Roodeplaat?

DR MIJBURGH: Not as far as I know. He was a defence doctor the whole time as far as I know. He was not a paid member of a front company as far as I am aware.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. Once you were at Delta-G were you aware of any liaison between scientists at that plant with members of the CCB?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever yourself maintain any liaison with members of the CCB?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know of Dr Basson having a liaison with members of the CCB?

DR MIJBURGH: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not saying that he was not. You are saying you were not aware if he was?

DR MIJBURGH: No I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: One question. In all the time that you worked for Delta-G can you tell us what you think the achievements of Delta-G were to justify spending that money from the public account?

DR MIJBURGH: I think it developed a chemical capacity for the defence force and as far as my knowledge goes and what I read in the press about other countries' chemical warfare capacities and programmes it was developed at a fairly low cost.

MR VALLY: Specifically what achievements?

DR MIJBURGH: It established a capacity.

MR VALLY: Yes what capacity?

DR MIJBURGH: A capacity to develop chemical substances to be used (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Specifically what?

DR MIJBURGH: And to prepare the defence force (...intervention)

MR VALLY: Specifically what chemical substances?

DR MIJBURGH: CR which was a new irritant.

MR VALLY: Teargas? Is that a sum total of its achievement?

DR MIJBURGH: No there were also analytical capacities established. I would like to say it could analyse virtually any substance in the world if necessary and that in itself was a major task.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mijburgh just to finish up on Mr Erasmus. You said he was your friend. At one stage you also played rugby together. Is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: At university yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that friendship how long did it, over what length of time did it span?

DR MIJBURGH: I think it was from the mid-seventies until Dr Erasmus went to Canada. I can't remember exactly it was sometime in the nineties.

CHAIRPERSON: And throughout that period you maintained a relationship, a friendship?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know his wife, Antoinette?

DR MIJBURGH: Do I know his wife?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

DR MIJBURGH: Yes his first and his second wives.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you maintain any links now that he is in Canada?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. Well thank you very much Dr Mijburgh I must thank you for having come and for having made yourself available. As far as I am aware you are now released and you are excused.

WITNESS IS EXCUSED: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally are you calling further evidence?

MR VALLY: Yes Mr Chair. We want to continue with General Knobel but I would ask for a short break, for 10, 15 minutes just to organise ourselves if we are going to start with General Knobel today.

CHAIRPERSON: You will start with him today you can be sure of that. We will adjourn until five to three. We are adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .