REVD XUNDU: I'll start with you and then the mother will follow.
SIVUYILE GORDON MADUBEDUBE: (sworn states)
NOZIBELE NQWENISO: (sworn states)
REVD FINCA: Thank you Revd Xundu. We will still hand over to you to lead Mr Madubedube to give his testimony.
REVD XUNDU: I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. Mr Madubedube?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I am a (indistinct) of the Nozulu clan.
REVD XUNDU: Thank you, old man. Where were you born actually?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I was born in (indistinct) in the village of Tsitsikama.
REVD XUNDU: How did you come to Queenstown?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I arrived here in 1950 as a policeman.
REVD XUNDU: Is the lady next to you, your wife?
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, she is my daughter.
REVD XUNDU: Thank you. In your evidence, you are telling us that you were a councillor at Mlungisi township here in Queenstown? You were a councillor here in Mlungisi location in Queenstown, is that so?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes.
REVD XUNDU: As you can perhaps remember, was the system of councillors allowed by the people or was it that they
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were against it?
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, I think they were not against it.
REVD XUNDU: How did these people become councillors? Were you being elected to the council?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes, as perhaps we can see today. Yes, there was a system that was created. In fact Mlungisi had eight wards.
REVD XUNDU: Do you mean that you won in the elections or do you think the majority voted for you?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes.
REVD XUNDU: As now it happened that people were actually becoming against the system, so what is actually the case?
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, you can just raise up your voice, because you know, I cannot hear you properly. I'm a bit deaf.
REVD XUNDU: What made it that there were people who rose against you personally because you were a councillor? So what actually happened, because initially you say that the system of councillors was accepted by the people?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I do not know, but what I can only say is that there were some children who called themselves comrades. These were only children, and there were no elderly people. My child was burnt down by small kids who simply called themselves comrades.
REVD XUNDU: You have said that your house was repeatedly burnt down.
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, it is the kids who stoned my house.
REVD XUNDU: And ultimately it happened that your daughter was omitted?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes, they burnt her. Previously we took her to Johannesburg and when she came back, no she was actually a kid who loved his family.
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REVD XUNDU: What was the actual reason that made them to burn her?
SG MADUBEDUBE: They said she was an informer.
REVD XUNDU: Do you think that, they say she was giving information to the Government?
SG MADUBEDUBE: It is said that it is something like that, I do not know.
REVD XUNDU: Now, someone said the people who were there, when your daughter died, who are the names of the people who were there? Here in the statement you say there was some of the people who were there and who are responsible for the death of your daughter. Now do you still recall the names of those people? There she is going to help you. Go on.
Let me say once more, do you still remember the names of the people who were present or some of those people who were present at the time your child was killed?
N NQWENISO: I am going to assist him. People who came to our home whilst my father was sleeping and I was sitting under a tree, it was a group of people and when they came in, they stood at the gate because we have got two gates, they stood at one gate. One of us went to call my father. Lungelwa was sitting under the tree with my mother and my cousin.
So Lulama Mtshiselwa came and took Lungelwa from my mother, and we asked why and he said she had given information about Viwa Mtshiselwa.
There was a policeman who was once burnt down, Tato Radebe. So (indistinct) came and took Lungelwa together with Ndondosi and another child from the Mbasani family and another called Tsolwani, whose surname I don't know.
There was another one from Nogemani family, they took
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him away. Then when I chased Lungelwa, trying to go round before them, I could not make telephone calls, because they had disconnected and cut the telephone cords.
Because I wanted to call the police. Fortunately I was given a car by (indistinct), so I used it. When I got there, I found that they had locked her in a certain house nearby the place where they were intending to burn her.
I ran to tell my mother who was walking, following Lungelwa. When the policeman could not find her, they hippo drove towards the New Brighton, they took her out and they burnt her.
When I was running to her, my cousin stopped me and she was fighting, she was saying she was not an informer and she had taken the tyre out of her and she said this should be the last time that you burn someone because I am not going to die from the burning.
And I could not go close to her. I decided to run back home, then I told my parents that they had burnt her.
REVD XUNDU: Do you believe that this was just some allegations that were not true or do you think that there was a struggle between political organisations at the time?
N NQWENISO: No, there was no political organisation that was independent. We used to call us as a group, that we were comrades and therefore Lungelwa was one of those comrades. And she was one of those people who was against the councillors here in Queenstown.
And she used to fight whenever there was something that was not acceptable. So my father took her there, that is where my father was asked to resign by Lungelwa.
Lungelwa took my father to resign, because that was something that was very unpopular to the community of
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Queenstown.
REVD XUNDU: How old was Lungelwa at the time?
N NQWENISO: She was 18 years old.
REVD XUNDU: Was Lungelwa a member of a students' organisation?
N NQWENISO: Yes.
REVD XUNDU: What was the name of the organisation?
N NQWENISO: If it was COSAS then it was COSAS, but I don't know because I was a teacher then, and I was a member of the NUSA organisation.
REVD XUNDU: Now, what actually caused this attraction to Lungelwa?
N NQWENISO: In short I will say the cause was that councillors had to resign and my father resigned like other councillors, but he had a rising because I would like to say more and explain, there was a child who used to live with us.
We are close with the Mtshiselwa's who were our neighbours. We did everything together. The day a boy by the name by the name of Xolile used to come to our place and this particular day he brought some clothes from the dry clean and I did not know that he was one of the comrades.
He was a sweet boy so he took R2-00 from us to pay for the clothes and the dry clean. So I asked him to give me a cap, I am married - I am Mrs Nqweniso. So Xolile came and took the R2-00.
In the morning we were told that Xolile was found in a macapela house, shot by the police and we were surprised and hurt.
Before the end of the day there was a rumour that my
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father was responsible for his death, but when Xolile
died, my father was at home and it is quite a distance from the Macapela house to my home.
It is a long distance, really quite a distance.
REVD XUNDU: Now how do you think how did they connect the death of this boy to your father?
N NQWENISO: You see here in Queenstown you would be labelled and have a stigma that would really suit you. It was very bad here in Queenstown at that time, people would say things about you and it would take time for it to change.
REVD XUNDU: Let's continue. Now you say so Lungelwa died. Was there any inquest or any investigation done on the death of Lungelwa so that this people could be arrested?
N NQWENISO: When Lungelwa died after Xolile but, I actually wanted to talk about Xolile. When Xolile died, there was this big hatred between us and the Mtshiselwa's because our father was seen as the one who had caused the death of Xolile, then other people joined against us.
We were then those neighbours who were not in good terms from the death of Xolile. And she said, this continued Lungelwa was accused that he had been seen on a hippo and two comrades came. One of them was Bobedlo Boy and he investigated about this accusation that Lungelwa had been seen on a hippo and found that it was not there.
He came to warn us against this people that were forming stories against us. So Bobedlo was one of those who came to our home.
REVD XUNDU: I would like to ask a question. There is also something referred to as the "third force", where you find where there is a conflict they will join too. Now what QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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do you think? Do you think there was a "third force"?
N NQWENISO: Yes, there was. The "third force" were the people in our street, they were the enemy and then it happened that we sent Lungelwa away to Johannesburg as suggested by this Bobedlo Boy, until everything subsided.
That was the time when there as a consumer boycott and Lungelwa used to not go into shops to buy. If we had gone to buy, he would ask us to take it back. Lungelwa had shoes that he had got from my sister and then people thought that he had bought these shoes and labelled her as an informer.
So she went to Johannesburg, then she insisted to come back on her birthday and she came on the 8th. On the 9th these children came. They did not ask anything, they took her and burnt her.
I went to (indistinct), I said you've got what you wanted, I am sure you're happy and then I went home.
When I was there with my children and my husband, these children came and they had burnt Lungelwa already, I was with my sister Nomonde. They bound our hands together with the intention to burn us.
Nomonde escaped and somewhere at Mbengwa's place the very, this were the very children who had tied me, they asked why I had gone to Stella, then I told them that even if I were to die, I will tell them it was the truth that we were not informers, because we were brought up the way we were brought up at home.
They tied me, they put a tyre around my neck. When they were about to pour petrol on me, children from the neighbours said, no, you can's burn Nozibele, they had torn my clothes, they had smashed my goods in the house, my husband was following, crying, I did not know where my
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children were, I saw them the following day, so they let me go and I survived and Lungelwa died.
REVD XUNDU: Now you mean all this happened because Xolile had died?
N NQWENISO: Yes, that's the origin.
REVD XUNDU: Were these councillors having some guards where they would think that your father perhaps had a firearm?
N NQWENISO: No, there were no guards at home. The only time they sent guards was when they had burnt. Then there had been an anonymous phone to us saying that we should go out of the house by two o'clock, so the children phoned for the police.
The police came to be on guard. And then they stopped guarding when we had to move and relocate to the rural places.
REVD XUNDU: Were there any people who were arrested?
N NQWENISO: Yes, there were, because we named them. Even Lungelwa had named them.
REVD XUNDU: Did this people appear in court?
N NQWENISO: Yes, they did.
REVD XUNDU: Were they charged?
N NQWENISO: ; Yes, they appeared in court in Port Alfred. My father and mother were there and my cousin too. I could not go because I was not feeling good. I was so disturbed and hurt, I did not want to listen to anything connected to this.
REVD XUNDU: What did they say was the outcome or the verdict?
N NQWENISO: No, my father did not get into the court room. They were just told about the verdict outside the
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court.
REVD XUNDU: What did they say was the verdict of the court?
N NQWENISO: They were given a sentence of some years. Now my father will take over and tell us exactly.
SG MADUBEDUBE: In Port Alfred we first went to a court in Grahamstown and we did not see them. We were not asked to go in as witnesses.
Then we moved on to Port Alfred where we were told that we had to go back and they were going to tell us later, but since then we have never heard anything whether they were sentenced or what.
But we hear rumours that there were some who were sentenced. I think one of them is Notsolwana who was the main person who took Lungelwa from us.
REVD XUNDU: Is she still here in Queenstown?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I beg yours?
REVD XUNDU: Is she still here according to what you know?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I think she is in jail, I'm not sure. We left this place after they had burnt Lungelwa. There isn't anything more we know about this place, because we move to Tsitsikama.
REVD XUNDU: There in Tsitsikama, were you tortured in 1990. Could you explain to this Commission what happened?
SG MADUBEDUBE: There in Tsitsikama sir, on the times - on the day of Sebe's death, on the day when Sebe died, at about five o'clock in the afternoon, though it is the time when the Government of Sebe was overthrown, that's what he means, we saw some people from the north and we felt we did not have any enemies.
In fact even here in Queenstown we did not have
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enemies. They came, these people came and stood on top of tables. Some were taking off the pictures from the walls, throwing them to the floor, some were taking food out of the fridges, this was a great loss to us.
I can still remember the death of Lungelwa, but this was worse. The loss was great. Some people took our blankets, they took meat from our fridges despite that the meat was cold from the fridge.
REVD XUNDU: Excuse me Tata. I know the way the gentleman is giving his evidence is humorous and so the way he speaks, makes people laugh, not laughing actually at the story so I'm asking for your patience that we should control ourselves too and listen to the evidence. Now could you tell us briefly that evening they took you to 24 villages.
SG MADUBEDUBE: They took me and they came in a bus. One of them said, he was the driver, he introduced himself as the son of Mtshiselwa and he said I was the one who was responsible for the arrest of his brothers.
Then I said, yes I did, because they had killed my daughter. When they came to me they said they wanted me to take them to the Headmen because at that time I was a member of Parliament here in Wittlesea.
They wanted me to take them to the Headmen because they wanted to go with me to the Magistrate to go and ask for a piece of land. I said I wasn't the one who was allocating land to the people.
Then I said to them they had to go to the Chief in stead. Then they said, no, we are going to go with you and I could not resist, because I feared they would do the same thing they did to my daughter.
So I was prepared to do everything they were saying I
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should do. They asked me why I had run away from Queenstown and asked many questions. I said, no I did not run away, I came here to bury my child.
REVD XUNDU: Now you say you were a member of the Parliament of the Ciskei Government that?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes, it had collapsed. Yes, I was a member of the Parliament in the Ciskei but it had collapsed, so they came because they wanted land.
REVD XUNDU: Did you get there to the Headmen?
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, we did not. The policemen came to my rescue. I could not see properly because we moved the whole night and I had suffered, I was tired. We moved the whole night until seven, until the policemen came.
I kept on falling and hitting against trees, because I could not see properly and it was dark. Police came to my rescue and I was free and I felt it was just too much.
I then went away to stay in another place, running away from home in fear that they would again come. I could see they now wanted to burn me because there was this boy from the Mtshiselwa family.
REVD XUNDU: Where was your family at the time? Your wife especially?
SG MADUBEDUBE: She was there at Tsitsikama.
REVD XUNDU: So you went back to Tsitsikama ultimately?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes, after a few days I went back to Tsitsikama.
REVD XUNDU: Did you lay any charges against this people?
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, not these because that was the time Tsebe's Government collapsed. Even the busses, they had come in, I don't know where they had got it from.
REVD XUNDU: So you decided not to take any steps because
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there was no direction?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Yes, even the policemen at that time did not know what was happening because the Government had collapsed.
REVD XUNDU: Let us now conclude by asking you what would you like this Commission to do for you?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I want this people to give a full explanation as to why they killed my child and leave me in stead, because I was the person who was a councillor.
In fact no one had said that councillors were not accepted and as soon as I could see that there was a conflict, I decided to resign voluntarily.
We were not actually representing ourselves as councillors.
REVD XUNDU: What is your other request besides this one?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Sir, my wife was very hurt such that she doesn't live there, she lives in Dongwe because she wants to be nearer the Doctors.
And she has left me there and I don't see properly.
REVD XUNDU: What is wrong with your wife?
SG MADUBEDUBE: My wife is suffering from arthritis, but she doesn't live with me.
REVD XUNDU: Any other request?
SG MADUBEDUBE: So this has affected our family live because we live separately, even what I own is being stolen by people.
REVD XUNDU: Now, have you ever had any attention on your eye?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I did go to Maciwana Hospital and they say my eye is damaged.
REVD XUNDU: Is there any other thing, any other request
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you perhaps have?
N NQWENISO: Our request as a family is that the Commission should meet us half way and bring them closer to us because my mother is an urban person, she is not used to living in the rural area and she is 60 years of age.
So if this Government could give him a house here nearer in this township surround Queenstown so that they could live together with my father, because she can't walk properly too - as due to ill health.
Secondly our wish is that this Mtshiselwa family should sit with us and then they should come forward and we reconcile because this is most important that we should reconcile whilst we are living.
These are the people that we used to live with, they should also stage how we offended them and we shall also tell them how they offended us and hurt us. Thank you.
REVD XUNDU: We thank you for your evidence sir. I should ask you to take over.
REVD FINCA: We must thank Revd Xundu. Are there any other questions? Ntsiki Sandi, over to you.
MR SANDI: Mr Madubedube, you said here in Queenstown you came in 1950. When you arrived here in Queenstown, what work were you doing?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I was a policeman.
MR SANDI: Then when did you stop to be a policeman?
SG MADUBEDUBE: That was in 1952 when members of the Congress were being beaten, then I said I can't beat the members of the Congress.
MR SANDI: When you joined the Community Council, what year was that?
SG MADUBEDUBE: It was between 1979 and 1980.
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MR SANDI: Is there anyone who perhaps advised you to join and be a Councillor?
SG MADUBEDUBE: We were members of the Advisory Board and then we abandoned as members of the ANC. Then (indistinct) said we are leaving, then he said if you can't win the Whites, then join them.
So as members of the Congress, we became members of the Advisory Board, then we could see that there was no penetration because on paper it was advertised that there would be a Council so people voted for the Councillors.
MR SANDI: ; When you became a Councillor, did you perhaps know how the people felt about Councillors?
SG MADUBEDUBE: People had no choice whatsoever and there was no one who was against the Councillors.
MR SANDI: On the day mentioned, excuse me Mr Madubedube, we are here in this Commission that is trying to create peace and reconciliation amongst the people, but this reconciliation should be set on the truth. That's the reason the name of this Commission is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, so we therefore ask you to be of assistance to this Commission in this regard. Help us to get the truth that will lead us to reconciliation.
I find it difficult that quite an intelligent person as you are should say before this Commission to be a Council was something that was accepted by the people unless you are going to elaborate and tell us how the people favoured Councillors.
SG MADUBEDUBE: It is because people were voting the Councillors in according to the wards and then the residents of Queenstown can also support me because we did a lot for them and I can mention two or three of what we did for them.
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If you allow me, I can mention those.
MR SANDI: Go on. But my question has been answered, could you - you say in Ciskei it was independent, are you going to say people supported the Ciskei independence, because people were voting for it?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Now what do you say? What are you going to say because if people go to vote, don't you think they support that?
MR SANDI: Okay, you have said it. Thank you Mr Madubedube. Let me ask once more. On the day your daughter sitting next to you, mentioned that is the day when the Councillors resigned in a general meeting, did you also resign willingly or you were forced by your children to resign?
SG MADUBEDUBE: No, we were not compelled to resign by anyone. We took a decision in that meeting because people were not in favour of the Councillors, then we decided to write a letter and send it to them to their meeting and we also went to that meeting.
Some even said the Council was bribing, was making people to - was accepting bribery. Then I said who exactly was receiving bribery and even the person that said it, did not have any information to that effect, so we resigned willingly.
We even submitted a letter of resignation.
MR SANDI: Over to you Mr Chairperson.
REVD FINCA: One last question is, looking back over your life at this time in 1996, because there are such times when we look back into our lives, are there any matters that you look at and see as the mistakes of live, that you may have been involved in?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I don't understand the question?
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REVD FINCA: Do you want me to speak in English? Looking back to your life as a Councillor, as a member of the Parliament in Ciskei, are there any matters which you feel you now regard as mistakes of your live?
SG MADUBEDUBE: Please excuse me sir. I can't, I don't think there are any mistakes that I made.
From 1952 I was a member of the Congress, fighting for our people, even when we were Councillors, it was for the suffering of our people, not for any financial gain. In fact we used not to even get money as Councillors.
And we had a great contribution, you see we are responsible for the schools around here. People used to be waken up at night, then we intervened, we stopped that.
Even today our sons are married, some people were even taken out of houses. Even for the fact that this location is still where it is, it is because of us, we fought. People would sell houses and then those houses would be demolished, so that this location could be moved from where it is at the moment.
People are thankful for that, so I say I have got no mistakes that I did. If the Congress had been banned, we had to do something, so people are allowed to see it as a mistake, otherwise I do not see anything as a mistake.
We were also arrested.
REVD FINCA: How many years were you a member of the Parliament?
SG MADUBEDUBE: I was a member of the Parliament for four years. I took over from Mniataza.
REVD FINCA: But even then, do you feel that people had nothing against the Ciskei Government?
SG MADUBEDUBE: We had no choice sir, there was just no other QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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road to follow. I am through.
REVD FINCA: We thank you. I just wanted to ask that question because I think in our trying that people should reconcile, there are some people who have done certain things which they now view as mistakes.
And then they have a wish to ask for an apology and explain that they thought they did all these things out of wisdom, only to find that they were making a mistake.
But I think I explained well that all the things you were involved in, you were convinced that they were right.
Let me therefore sympathise to you on the death of your daughter, Lungelwa, who died painfully from being burnt.
We thank you for coming forward and giving us this evidence as a Commission. The Commission is going to look into this evidence and it is going to probe into it and see what it can do if ever there is to create peace between you and the people, between you and the family you mentioned.
We thank you.
