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GOOSEN, MCAge Description Who did you receive that instruction from? // As I mentioned in my application at that stage it was the then head of the Defence Force General Geldenhuys, he asked me to draw up this plan. // And that would have been a plan as you indicate in your amnesty application to be of support to the SAP in ... You never authorized anyone, and if any person under your command purported to authorize someone to commit an unlawful act, that person would have been acting unlawfully. Is that correct? // That person must be asked. // That person would be acting unlawfully. // That person must be asked… // ... The fact of the matter is that it is a well known fact that every adult, white, unless this can be denied in this house, every white South African in this room has been trained by the law – which I think was the conscription law. // Just for your information I was not so trained, I’d have never ... I went and looked at just a school dictionary, initially about the word ‘elimineer.’ Then I went to a more authoritative dictionary sir, the HAT as we call it in Afrikaans and there on page 194 it says ‘elimineer’ means ‘uitskakel’ or ‘verwyder’ and it gives an example there of a ... it could employ. The regional head of investigations in the Eastern Cape was fired from misconduct and the national director of investigations, Glen Goosen resigned over clashes with his boss, Dumisa Ntsebeza. Cases like the murder of David Webster should have been cracked by the unit but in this ... You concede that at the very least those words are ambiguous and capable of different interpretations. // Yes not only those words, sir all words are open to misconstruction. I cannot go into semantics about that sir. The dictionary meaning is quite clear, but I don’t think policemen or soldiers ... We’re aware of the fact that in the early 1990s there was a, if you like, a general cleaning operation; motivated, so we’re informed, on the basis that much of that material is no longer relevant to current policing activities, particularly records of the security police. There was fairly ... It was stipulated that every adult person had to be armed, white person, had to be armed. Now if such a definition is given to an armed preparedness by a Defence Act, ipso facto, every household therefore that conformed with these instructions or with these laws was a military garrison in that ... I didn’t even see the judgement or heard about it. // With the greatest of respect General at the time of Lubowski’s death you were the Minister of Defence. In fact you made statements in Parliament in relation to that matter and in fact at a certain stage you suggested that the CCB could not ... If it was reasonable for security force members to interpret phrases like that at the time to mean that they should kill then those who formulated and used those words at the level of the State Security Council, cabinet and so on, would bear responsibility for that language use and would bear ... The basis for positions adopted in respect of the legitimacy of targeting white civilians, that by typifying white civilians in the manner in which you did carte blanch, you would have violated international law. // We did not attack white civilians but we destroyed European invaders, ... Mister Joubert’s position was that had he found out that he was acting bona fide and that the operation was in fact authorized by the police chiefs. // Are you saying to this Commission that all you could do in the circumstances was simply to say this thing should never happen again? // Mister ... I think there was one occasion when I met Minister Vlok personally. // From that meeting and from that incident would you have gained any insight into the minister’s view in regard to the approach adopted by the security police that we’ve been talking about? // Mister Chairman I think this is ... Did you claim in Parliament in relation to this matter and did you reveal to Parliament that mister Anton Lubowski was a paid agent of Military Intelligence and did you then on that basis indicate that for that reason General Witkop Badenhorst would not have authorised any action against him? // ... The National Party made its submission and the former state president made his submission. He said actions of an unlawful nature were never authorized, they were either bona fide misinterpretations of lawful instructions or they were bona fide actions as a result of people who were overzealous or ... ‘Booby-trapped Hand grenades.’ // Senior members of the South African Police implicating also senior SADF officers have applied for amnesty for a number of murders committed by SAP operatives when they supplied faulty hand grenades to COSAS members in the course of 1985. At least eight persons ... Then do I understand that it is because there was no effective mechanism to prevent abuse that you in effect now accept overall political and moral responsibility for the abuses that did occur? // That is correct. I accept responsibility because I was the political head of the department and I’m ... The politicians can say we didn”t give that order, because they didn”t give that order. It”s nowhere stated that we said so and so should be killed. We said so and so should be eliminated, but we meant that that person should be detained. And then never having any real knowledge, or real ... There was never any reference after that meeting at any time of the third force in any discussion that I can recall except for this continued discussion on do we establish another overt force or not. There was never any reference that I can recall in any way whatsoever of our policy using terrorist ... Mister Chairman my answer is as follows, Gen Joubert could make his own conclusions from what I have meant but I did not authorize those actions. // Do I understand from the answer that you gave when you were not answering the previous question that you agree that he did present to you a plan but ... |
