Amnesty Hearings

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson the next applicant is number 8, Mr J Venter. He is sitting in the witness seat.

MR BRACHER: Well I will be here whenever there are other witnesses relevant to the case.

CHAIRPERSON: As you know that the representatives of the applicants plan to consult this afternoon with possible witnesses and they will only be in a position to indicate who and how many they are calling I suppose tomorrow morning. So if you can contact the evidence leader perhaps.

MR BRACHER: I will do that. I have got a cell phone number.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you would be in the know.

MR BRACHER: I will excuse myself if you don't mind. Mr Sinjatsi will be here just now to sit in. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

MR BRACHER EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR J J VENTER: (sworn states)

MR PRINSLOO: The application of the applicant appears page 138 up to 151 and the B section, 214 to 223. May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: 214 to 223. Thank you.

Mr Venter, you together with your co-applicants were prosecuted in the High Court in the Witwatersrand and Judge Flemming found you guilty on what is now generally known as the pipe bomb incidents in the Randfontein area as well as the Pretoria pipe bomb attacks.

MR PRINSLOO: From that there were charges of murder in Pretoria and also attempts to murder for the Western area, Randfontein and also incidents of deliberate damage of property, do you confirm that?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And also for the possession of explosives?

MR VENTER: That is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And on these charges you were sentenced for 21 years.

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And at the moment you are out on bail.

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you are applying for amnesty on all those charges as well as the murder charges in Pretoria as well as explosives and the damage of property, is that correct?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, you were involved with the Ystergarde of AWB, is that correct? You were a member of that?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have any rank?

MR VENTER: I had the rank of captain.

MR PRINSLOO: And how long were you in the service of the AWB?

MR VENTER: For the AWB as such, beginning of the '80's I joined the AWB and I got actively involved in 1988 and in 1990 I joined the Garde.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was your relationship with the leader of the AWB?

MR VENTER: For a time I worked at Ventersdorp as the bodyguard of the leader and also I worked as a Garde at the head office.

MR PRINSLOO: Sorry, Mr Venter, while you were a member of the AWB did you attend specific meetings if you get close to the events which happened in 1993, 1994?

MR VENTER: Yes Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And these meetings you attended were they addressed by the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche, amongst others?

MR VENTER: Yes, amongst others the leader himself and also at other meetings which we attended there was Ferdie Hartzenberg and Constand Viljoen as well, as well as the rest of the right-wing groups.

MR PRINSLOO: Were these open meetings or were some of them closed meetings? What was the position?

MR VENTER: Some of the meetings were open meetings in public and I would say ninety percent of the meetings which I attended with the leader were closed meetings at predetermined places, for example restaurants.

MR PRINSLOO: Now some of these closed meetings that you attended, you already mentioned Constand Viljoen's name as well as that of Ferdie Hartzenberg, was there some of the Generals of staff present?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was the message in these meetings, shortly?

MR VENTER: Shortly it basically came down to the fact that we had to prepare ourselves for the fight that was lying ahead or the war as they called it. We must prepare ourselves for the struggle as we are going to fight for our Volkstaat. We must gather ammunition and weapons and at each meeting this was more and more emphasised.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you mean Volkstaat?

MR VENTER: Yes, I meant Volkstaat.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter did you also look at news reports?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, you are also aware of a specific broadcast with regards to a video which can be shown to the Committee, do you know about that?

MR VENTER: Yes. It is a point that can be emphasised or it can be proven, the fact that the leader made certain utterances.

MR PRINSLOO: And the incident you are referring to now what is that concerned with?

MR VENTER: Mr Terreblanche, I do not know if it is a punishment but he has got a way of whipping the people and it was very expressive and strongly emphasised that we are going to fight and we are going to pull it off.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson we would like to show you a video. It is quite short. This is what has been conveyed to me and we would like to show you. If it hasn't been done yet we can go onto something else until it is ready. Apparently there is a technical problem at this stage Chairperson, so we will do it shortly. We are going onto another aspect.

Mr Venter were there any instructions with regard to preparations given or not?

MR VENTER: Yes, there were instructions with preparations, we had to get food, medical supplies, ammunition. We had to get it all ready so if there is call-up instructions as they put it to us, that it would be ready for the war.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter if you look at page 6 of the typed, it is 147 of the records in front of you and paragraph 14 of the statement in front of you. Can you tell the Chairperson or the Committee what was the run-up to your involvement with Clifton Barnard who is also a co-accused in this matter?

MR VENTER: Chairperson if I can I would just like to start by saying that I was called up from Lushof which is just outside of the Lichtenburg district, and after the call-up instruction on the Wednesday I went to Ventersdorp. I arrived in Ventersdorp and Mr Clifton Barnard asked me on the Friday or he told me rather that I must accompany him the next morning on a mission. We are going to pick up a person.

I also worked with Clifton Barnard in head office where he was my direct senior under Mr Leon van der Merwe. After Mr Barnard approached me and told me: "Look we have got a mission to fulfil", I accepted it coming from a senior instruction as I know him before at head office.

MR PRINSLOO: And where was this mission, where did you go with Mr Barnard?

MR VENTER: He did not tell me what the destination was on the Friday night. The Saturday morning we got into the car and we arrived in Welkom.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that the Saturday?

MR VENTER: That is the Saturday morning.

MR PRINSLOO: Who accompanied you?

MR VENTER: Philip van Coller and together with Clifton Barnard in his vehicle was Koper Myburgh.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Coller was he also a member of the AWB?

MR VENTER: Yes of the AWB and the Ystergarde.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry Mr Prinsloo. Can you just give us the date when you and Mr Barnard went to Welkom?

MR VENTER: That is the Friday before the elections when I arrived at the Garde house in Ventersdorp, the Saturday before the elections we left.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter in your statement you say it is the Saturday. It is supposed to be the Friday when you saw Barnard and the Saturday morning you left?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And then what happened when you arrived there?

MR VENTER: We arrived in Welkom, there is a big parking lot at the circle at the Holiday Inn and Cliff Barnard there told me that I had to wait there in the vehicle they are quickly going to conclude their business.

MR PRINSLOO: You did not know what business he was referring to?

MR VENTER: No Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Well when was the business was concluded?

MR VENTER: Well that was about 45 minutes to an hour later then Mr Myburgh alone arrived, Cliff Barnard was not in the vehicle. I noticed that the vehicle was heavily loaded and I asked Koper what do you have in the boot of the car, why is the car so heavy, and he said: "fertiliser". That is where we finished the conversation.

MR PRINSLOO: And that same day after Koper and Barnard arrived was there an incident where another person turned up?

MR VENTER: Yes. Myburgh told us at that stage that we had to wait there, he specifically is waiting for Barnard and about 15 to 20 minutes later a vehicle arrived. At that stage it was an unknown person to me. Mr Barnard got out of the car together with Koper Myburgh got into their vehicle and we left and returned to Ventersdorp.

MR PRINSLOO: And that person, is he still unknown to you today, his identity?

MR VENTER: Afterwards I made enquiries and I found out that it was the Commanding Officer, the General of Bloemfontein and Welkom district.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was his name? ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter, the glasses you are wearing, are they prescribed glasses?

MR VENTER: Yes, I have light-sensitive eyes so they are prescribed glasses.

MR PRINSLOO: So did you determine what that person's name was, the unknown person that is, the General of the Free State?

MR VENTER: Yes. I forgot his name now, I will get back to it.

MR PRINSLOO: Very well. From there you went to Klerksdorp, is that correct?

MR VENTER: Ja, on their way to Ventersdorp Koper turned off at Klerksdorp and we went around a small holding and when we stopped there Cliff Barnard told me to take the Golf of Philip van Coller and to reverse it in so that we can pick up things at the specific smallholding.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you remember the colour of that Golf?

MR VENTER: It was yellow.

MR PRINSLOO: And then what happened?

MR VENTER: I reversed the vehicle under the verandah. There were sand bags or plastic bags which the army used. We got the bags from that and underneath that there were still other bags, so Cliff told me to make room, we must make room in the car so we can load these things and then I realised that it was heavy and I asked why is it heavy and at that stage I was told it was the pipe bombs which we must take up to Ventersdorp.

MR PRINSLOO: And from there you left?

MR VENTER: Directly after we packed the Golf we went to Ventersdorp.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you go to the game farm?

MR VENTER: When we arrived at Ventersdorp we just got our kit from Garde house and we followed Koper Myburgh. I didn't know where this place was until we actually got there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter just explain how do the pipe bombs work? What is a pipe bomb?

MR VENTER: Chairperson at that stage of the fight I did not actually see the things, they were inside the bags. I just asked what is it and they said it is pipe bombs and I said: "Are they safe"? and they said no they are already loaded and the fuses are already inside them. I rebelled a bit against that, I didn't actually take it out and looked at them. I loaded them into the vehicle and at the game farm I only heard what the form is and how they work.

CHAIRPERSON: Please describe them to us?

MR VENTER: Chairperson for me at that stage a pipe bomb is a pipe that is a bomb and when I saw the things physically in front of me, there were long ones, there were short ones, thick, thin ones, they had different shapes. What I could determine from what I saw in front of me, it is a normal piece of metal like a water pipe which they welded together at the bottom and then they threw explosives inside of it and at the top it is covered up and it was nutted, there was a bit of metal there and the fuse stuck out of that and that is where you ignite it and then you throw it. That is all I know about these things Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, at the game farm on Sunday the 24th of April, were there certain specific instructions given to you and others with regards to the pipe bombs?

MR VENTER: The Sunday evening, yes. During the day we did guard duties that type of thing and we slept the evening we woken up or I was woken up and I was told to go outside. I got outside and the men were already busy explaining the pipe bombs to the people and they told the people that they wanted specific groups to go and do certain missions.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter were you chosen to accompany a specific group?

MR VENTER: Yes a specific person, Cruywagen that is, asked me if I know the Randfontein area and I said I know it well and they asked me to be the driver of a vehicle and to accompany them to Randfontein.

MR PRINSLOO: In your group you have mentioned Cruywagen?

MR VENTER: It was me, Cruywagen and Clint Ellish.

MR PRINSLOO: Ellish. What was the target?

MR VENTER: We were told that we must target a taxi rank in Randfontein.

MR PRINSLOO: You and Ellish and Cruywagen, did you then go to Randfontein?

MR VENTER: The next morning early we left the game farm and we went to Randfontein, that is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So was there a target targeted and was there an explosion?

MR VENTER: Yes, we arrived in Randfontein, we approached the taxi rank in Randfontein, we drove up and down a few times to make sure we are at the right spot. The bomb was planted at the taxi rank in Randfontein in a toilet and when we left, several seconds afterwards the bomb exploded and we returned to the game farm.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, you already told the Committee of what you were found guilty, would you just go to page 9, it is at page 150 of the record and in this paragraph 21 of yours you say amongst others

"I identified myself with these deeds because I was doing it for the freedom struggle"

And this is with regards to the explosion in Johannesburg?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you involved in any way with the explosion in Johannesburg in Bree Street?

MR VENTER: Chairperson, I became involved when I arrived at Ventersdorp until I knew that the fertiliser was loaded into the vehicle. I was tasked to load pipe bombs and from there we went to the game farm, at the game farm. During the whole Sunday the bomb exploded in Bree Street. After the bomb exploded - we had a television at the game farm, during that time I realised that this was the struggle for freedom which is now in progress, this is the war they were talking about, this vehicle bomb which exploded and I identified myself with that.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you contribute to the explosion in Bree Street?

MR VENTER: No, I did not contribute to that at all. No I was not involved at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

MR VENTER: Not, at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know it was going to explode?

MR VENTER: No, I didn't know it was planned.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not part of the plans?

MR VENTER: No, I was not.

CHAIRPERSON: So first time you heard about this was when you heard that it actually exploded?

MR VENTER: Yes, only afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it seen on television?

MR VENTER: Yes, I saw it on television.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, did you know what was happening at Koesterfontein?

MR VENTER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: And the bomb in Bree Street which exploded did you learn who was responsible for it?

MR VENTER: Yes. After the bomb actually exploded, first we heard it on the radio and at a later stage I saw it on television and on television I made the conclusion that it was Koper Myburgh's vehicle in which they were driving because I went from Ventersdorp to Welkom and back to Ventersdorp and I was in that vehicle so I noticed the parts in the street where the cameraman took the shots and I turned to Koper Myburgh and I said that is your vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, was there any specific reason why you had to make a bomb go off at a taxi rank?

MR VENTER: Chairperson, the reasons of the commanding officers at that stage was about the freedom struggle, the war that is now raging and my instruction was to take a bomb and to stop the elections which is only a few days away. We had to sow panic and we had to withhold the people from taking part in the elections.

MR PRINSLOO: At the taxi rank were there mostly black people or what was the situation?

MR VENTER: I think the person who gave the instruction had his purpose because it was definitely a black taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Mr Venter anything about the planning of the Germiston bomb, do you know anything about that?

MR VENTER: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you contribute to the explosion of the Germiston bomb?

MR VENTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know it was going to go off?

MR VENTER: No I did not know at all about the proceedings or the things which were happening at Koesterfontein, I did not know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were found guilty of that?

MR VENTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And Bree Street?

MR VENTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not found guilty?

MR VENTER: Bree Street, Jan Smuts, Koesterfontein I wasn't found guilty of any of those things.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, do you confirm the statements as they are contained in Annexure A and B?

MR VENTER: Yes I confirm them.

MR PRINSLOO: Now since these explosions have happened ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue Mr Prinsloo. Mr Venter when you started testifying you said you are applying for amnesty for all the charges?

MR VENTER: Yes, all the charges I was found guilty of.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which you were found guilty?

MR VENTER: Yes. I was found guilty of the incident in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Please go a bit slower, I want to write it down. For which cases did you apply for amnesty?

MR VENTER: I apply for Randfontein where I was personally involved and then in court because of conspiracy I was found guilty of Pretoria, Western area and I am not sure about the others, attempt to murder, possession of explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: This attempt for murder where did this take place?

MR VENTER: Pretoria and I think Western area and Randfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Western area, Pretoria and Randfontein is it those three incidents?

MR VENTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So everything that you have been found guilty of happened at one of these incidents?

MR VENTER: Yes, at these pipe bomb expeditions.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, how do you feel about these specific deeds that you were found guilty of and the specific application and with regards to the people who were involved?

MR VENTER: Chairperson, the people who were involved and the people who lost people because of the bombs, my sympathy, my condolences for the family. It was a freedom struggle that we had to fight, it was war. After all these things happened, the bombs and also the criminal case, I came to the conclusion that it was not really our goal, it was the leaders and the people behind us who motivated us to do these things but they did not even assist us in what we were doing. I am sorry that we fought a senseless battle and that people died from that and they had to experience senseless suffering. Once again I can only emphasise that I am really sympathetic towards all the people who suffered because of what we did and because of us who did not really have a goal, did not really have a purpose after these things were indoctrinated into us.

CHAIRPERSON: A question was asked yesterday with regards to a message which was sent to a specific family after the case. Do you know about that?

MR VENTER: I do not know about it. I was in prison for three years and (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, this is in the court.

MR VENTER: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know?

MR VENTER: No. I learned it yesterday here but otherwise I do not know anything about it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] yesterday asked that after the case was concluded or finished or during the court case a message was sent to one of the victim's family members to say that they are really sorry that a white child died or something to that effect and this was not accepted on the condition that a message must go to all the victims' families and afterwards there weren't any other messages sent. This witness says he doesn't know anything about the message.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, the message was not from the applicant but from a wife of one of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: I misunderstood it.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do not carry any knowledge with regards to any message being sent?

MR VENTER: No, not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter, are you still a member of the AWB?

MR VENTER: No, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair. So you are not applying for the Bree Street, you are not applying for amnesty for Bree Street, is that correct?

MR VENTER: That is correct yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you. You said that you realised in paragraph 21 page 150 that the AWB was responsible?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: But you also say that, that is only an assumption that you made (...indistinct)

MR VENTER: Okay I made that assumption afterwards. While I was there busy with the war as they called it, I knew that with all the meetings and all the leader figures that was involved with this, that it had to come out of the AWB. I also know that all these bombs and all these things wouldn't have been prepared if it was not for the leaders in this that had actually gave the order for this to happen.

MS CAMBANIS: But you were never told that the AWB were responsible for the Bree Street bomb?

MR VENTER: I knew they were responsible.

MS CAMBANIS: But you were never told that by anyone in the AWB?

MR VENTER: The people that were involved are direct from head office, direct people in the leader network there and it had to come from the head office itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter, you say the first time that you heard about this was on the television that evening.

MR VENTER: That it was these specific people who were involved in?

CHAIRPERSON: No, that the bomb exploded there.

MR VENTER: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume it was approximately 8 'o clock that evening when this news report was on television?

MR VENTER: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there no suggestion in that report that the SACP were involved, or can you not remember or did you not hear that?

MR VENTER: At that stage what I saw and observed what I did the day before in transporting the bombs and when I saw the vehicle on the television I immediately asked Koper Myburgh and I said to him: "It is your vehicle". I do not know what was said on the television and what the people or who the people thought planted the bomb but my conclusion was that I immediately went back to Koper Myburgh and said to him: "It is your vehicle".

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you see Koper Myburgh's vehicle?

MR VENTER: On the television, and the car was in pieces and it was lying almost in a radius of two blocks.

CHAIRPERSON: And you just saw it on the television, the Bree Street bomb was that evening on the television?

MR VENTER: Yes, and when they showed it I saw that it was that Audi with which Koper Myburgh and Cliff Barnard drove and directly after that I took it up with him.

CHAIRPERSON: This Audi was that close to the explosion where it occurred?

MR VENTER: It was the car bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, I see it was the car bomb.

MR VENTER: And then I knew it was them.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairperson, can I just say that the video material is now available if the Committee would like to see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you still like to show it Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, we would like to show it if some of the members would like to see it first and then continue with their questions later. I do not want to interrupt them. We can show it now. We will show it now, can it be set up?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman apart from what they have I would like to say that the video material regarding the Bree Street bomb and the car it is available on video if necessary.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry Mr Chair, I understood that we were also going to see the video material of the remnants of the Audi in order to establish whether, if I could place it on record that I would like to view the remnants.

Mr Chair, may I reserve further questions until we have had an opportunity to see that video.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I indicated to the legal representatives that I had the material. We could have arranged and we still can arrange a private viewing for their benefit if they require to ask questions. I simply said it is available if necessary. Yes, we can probably do it later on in the day.

COMMITTEE VIEWS VIDEO FOOTAGE

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, the video material that was showed to you now, we have got a transcription of it and we will have to make copies of it and submit it as to what the specific words were.

CHAIRPERSON: If you think it is necessary yes.

MR PRINSLOO: If it was clear enough to you then we do accept it. Can I just clear this aspect up with the applicant?

Mr Venter you saw this material on video, what is your comment concerning this?

MR VENTER: Mr Chairperson, the action there was every day

or it occurred every day and in various other meetings it also happened like this: "Prepare yourself, find weapons, get ammunition the war is on its way".

CHAIRPERSON: The way I understood your evidence earlier on was one of the main reasons for this Volkstaat is that the country was taken away from the Afrikaner volk by the British etc, did I understand you correctly?

MR VENTER: By the British, the then National Party. It was struggle that we wanted to fight with the background of the AWB against these people because they basically signed our country away and took it away.

CHAIRPERSON: And in this Volkstaat would only Afrikaans speaking people be allowed there?

MR VENTER: At that stage yes, that was my conclusion. They told us that it would be a purely white city or town. We would have workers or labourers but it would have been a white state. I would not say only Afrikaans speaking people, there are English speaking people, there are Germans or Dutch people as well. The conclusion I made it was for the people who identified themselves with us and who were on our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly, a child that is born between a German and Dutch person would be a pure Afrikaner?

MR VENTER: For me, my personal view was that it will not be the Boer speaking person, there would be other languages, English or whatever. Concerning the strives and goals of the Volkstaat, they would be involved in this struggle for the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please tell me what is an Afrikaner?

MR VENTER: It is a Boer, not necessarily someone who plant mielies or tobacco. It is a white South African Boer who were born in this country, grew up here.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a Boer if he is not on a farm?

MR VENTER: Our ancestors, all of them were basically farmers and in South Africa in the first few days the existence of the white race in South Africa, during that time when they formed Afrikaans in South Africa ninety percent of those people were farmers and the way South Africa developed people starting taking up other jobs but Boer comes from the South African Boer or farmer. That is my view Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I was told that I was born in South Africa, I see myself as a South African but I was told by my parents that my ancestors came from India and that they farmed in the sugar plantations in Natal, would they also be considered as a Boer? ...[transcriber's own translation]

MR VENTER: Mr Chairperson, in order to prevent confusion, I am not a politician, I am not in the leader element who did the planning and who told you what to do and not to do, I feel today that I was a usable chess piece in the struggle and what their ideals were and differs from mine I do not know but my conclusion of this whole matter was that a Volkstaat would be for the white farmer. If they had other view points and said that it was racist in saying that an Indian person or a Jewish person were not allowed there, they did not inform me about that and now to have a conversation with you which is not within my league, I cannot answer you.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I asked this question was your view of this whole thing was or why did you become a member of the AWB and why did you take part in everything that you did? That is why I asked the question.

MR VENTER: Mr Chairperson, you make it difficult for me. The question was do I identify myself with the ideology of the AWB? Yes, when I was an AWB member I do reject, I reject the ideology and the view points of the AWB and the right-wing. Through that ideology they opened my eyes of their viewpoints or motivational points. I thought yes, after the Defence Force and National Party government this is what we need, let us do it. They motivated us to do it. That motivational point, the using of us as pawns, their ideology now means nothing to me because they said with the conclusion that you can make that these people would assist us for God, fatherland and the nation so I cannot follow their ideology. I reject it completely. So now that my view point has changed, I cannot now talk about it because I cannot place myself in that situation again.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the important point is that you apply for amnesty on the basis of what you thought at that stage and that is why I ask it.

MR VENTER: That is correct yes, it was my ideology. I followed them through thick and thin for what they promised us. After all these things I realised it was not my struggle or strives. At that stage yes, I agreed with them and I fought in a war, in a struggle against ANC, the National Party, SACP, for a Volkstaat and under that motivation I did it as a freedom fighter but today I can tell you that I reject it. I was there, I am not there any more.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Venter, how old were you when you joined the AWB?

MR VENTER: Mr Chairperson, I am not very good at dates but I was still in the Defence Force in the mid eighties, 1984, 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: How old were you then approximately? Was it just after school, you must certainly know.

MR VENTER: No, I was 16 when I left school and I then went to the Defence Force. It was the beginning of the eighties so I would say 21, 22.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Thank you

Chairperson. As I indicated earlier on my biggest interest is the Germiston bombings so I would limit my cross-examination to that.

Mr Venter let us talk straight, you said that you were a usable pawn?

MR VENTER: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Mr Chairperson, I think my learned friend, although he has got no interest in the other bombs, on what basis are these questions then put to him? Can he just indicate that to us please?

MR KRIEL: In order to find out the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue please.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR KRIEL: When you left the Defence Force you were ready for war, is that correct, or were tired of war?

MR VENTER: Yes, I was tired.

MR KRIEL: The time when you did border service did you ever see a communist or did you ever catch a communist?

MR VENTER: Is this relevant to my application?

MR KRIEL: You mentioned that you went to Angola?

MR VENTER: Yes, during that period I fought for the government. We did tracking, we caught a lot of communists, we were in contact with them yes.

MR KRIEL: And then you left the South African Defence Force and the AWB was for you a similar vehicle during that period?

MR VENTER: What I experienced in the Defence Force was for me a new principle, a new idea. Although I was member I was not active, I was involved in the Defence Force but when I left, the ideology and the objective something that I could make my own because of the circumstances why I left the Defence Force after they handed over Angola and South West and handed over the struggle that we fought.

MR KRIEL: That is a point I wanted to make, that at that stage the head of the Defence Force was Viljoen in other words your leader in that war used you, is that correct?

MR VENTER: I would not say my leader at that stage but my commanding officer yes.

MR KRIEL: He was your commanding officer?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR KRIEL: And then your next commanding officer was Mr Terreblanche?

MR VENTER: That is correct yes.

MR KRIEL: And he also forced you to eat dirt.

MR VENTER: I think it is in the Afrikaner's bloodline.

MR KRIEL: Sir, concerning Welkom, if you look at the statements of Mr Barnard and Myburgh, they didn't want you to know anything about what was going on there, you and van Coller just drove with them. Your words was "We drove shotgun."

MR VENTER: He said that I must go with him. He gave me the order that he needs a vehicle. He did not give us a destination. He didn't give a reason or a purpose, he said that we are going to pick up an undercover person and that was the impression that I was placed under and that is why I drove with him.

MR KRIEL: You drove shotgun and you did nothing else?

MR VENTER: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: And the Saturday afternoon, I assume it is the 23rd, that was the weekend 23rd, 24th, you arrived together and then you went to a smallholding in Klerksdorp?

MR VENTER: When we turned from Welkom, yes. Basically when you come from Welkom through Klerksdorp on the left-hand side there are a few smallholdings and we directly went in there, it is directly next to the tar road.

MR KRIEL: Whose smallholding was it?

MR VENTER: No, I do not know.

MR KRIEL: When you loaded the items did you know that they were pipe bombs?

MR VENTER: I did make enquiries and they said: "Yes, they are pipe bombs".

MR KRIEL: And this was taking to the game farm?

MR VENTER: Yes, through Ventersdorp where we first got something and then went to the game farm.

MR KRIEL: If you look at Barnard and Myburgh's statements it seems as if those pipe bombs were immediately taken to Koesterfontein?

MR VENTER: When we arrived at the game farm we opened the doors, lit a cigarette and immediately the people were there and they said to us we must take the bags, the pipe bombs out of the vehicle. Some of the pipe bombs that I observed, I was not involved in the unloading of it, some of the pipe bombs in the bags let us say were put the hall there where we slept. We took them to one of the toilets in this building.

MR KRIEL: It did not go back to Koesterfontein?

MR VENTER: I do not know. That it where my involvement with the pipe bombs ended.

MR KRIEL: So in that day you were used as a pawn?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR KRIEL: You did not do anything actively?

MR VENTER: No, I just had a headache of the explosives in the vehicle.

MR KRIEL: Fertiliser or explosives?

MR VENTER: No, the pipe bombs were in our vehicle, and it is a terrible headache that you get from it.

MR KRIEL: And you continued with the actual order that was given to you and that is to remain at the game farm in order to protect the borders and the farmers in that area?

MR VENTER: That is correct, that is what was told to us and the reason why we have to go to the game farm.

MR KRIEL: And that is what you did there up till the Sunday evening when Prinsloo and Myburgh arrived.

MR VENTER: Prinsloo and Myburgh?

MR KRIEL: General Prinsloo and Koper Myburgh.

MR VENTER: I do not know when they arrived there.

MR KRIEL: But later that Sunday evening you were woken up and I assume at that stage that Koper Myburgh and Nico Prinsloo were already there?

MR VENTER: I did not see Nico Prinsloo, I saw Koper Myburgh and Clifton Barnard and the people who were with us in the hall I did see them.

MR KRIEL: So you didn't see any leader figure?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect the applicant said there was no leader. He said he did not observe them or see them and they woke him up and there was a meeting before that and he was woken up for that. It is misleading to say that there were no leading figures there. To go to the point that was referred to the time and the run-up of events, with respect Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, if I can just put it as follows

Did you see any leaders at the game farm?

MR VENTER: Yes, but not on that specific question that you put to me.

MR KRIEL: Who were the leaders at the game farm?

MR VENTER: At one stage I saw Nico Prinsloo, Brigadier Leon van der Merwe, Cliff was there, one General Cruywagen as well as at a later stage General Ackerman.

MR KRIEL: But Cliff and Koper were your co-colleagues who worked with you in the office, they were not leaders as such in the Generals and staff?

MR VENTER: No, they are not general staff.

MR KRIEL: Did any person whose name you just mentioned of the Generals in staff that Sunday evening give you instructions and told you: "Men you must take pipe bombs and target taxi ranks in order for them to explode there, the target is black"? Any of the Generals in staff did they ever convey that to you?

MR VENTER: Mr Chairperson, I did not see any of the Generals in staff. The orders were given to us, as a militant person, a person who comes from the Defence Force, the officer above me will not give me an order if he did not receive an order so my conclusion or view there was or what I accepted was that it came directly from them. I did not find a General who said go plant a bomb J J. I had Commandants and people above me who gave me those orders.

MR KRIEL: So although there were generals in staff that Sunday evening at the game farm, did not one of them the officers from the officers corps of your men give such an order?

MR VENTER: After I saw the Generals and with the orders that I received it would have come from them but a General did not directly give me an order.

PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG: I hope you heard that one?

MR VENTER: Ja, I heard you.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay thank you. Sir, having had a glimpse of that video excerpt I have some idea of the war talk that you say went around. Now tell me during this war talk was it ever mentioned to you as to who your targets would be in the war?

MR VENTER: Is this now before the election, before the bombings, in the meetings itself?

MR MOTLAUNG: Let me put it this way, at any stage before the bombings.

MR VENTER: I can put it to you this way, that the general target in this time and period in every meeting or in any meeting at that stage was the people that was against us for the Volkstaat,

in other words I will say the majority were black, the ANC, the SACP and of course the National Party but ninety nine percent I will say yes, it was black.

MR MOTLAUNG: Including the people who belonged to the IFP?

MR VENTER: No, that is the one percent of the blacks that we weren't against because we were together with the IFP.

MR MOTLAUNG: So is it fair to say that the way you saw it you saw black people generally as a legitimate target, any black person for you was a legitimate target?

MR PRINSLOO: That is not what the witness said. He said he saw black people and Generals that targeted, he clearly stated he saw black people with the exception of the IFP so it is not correct to say generally he saw black people as a target.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if ninety nine percent isn't general I don't know what is. The witness himself said the one percent they regarded as the IFP who were with them and they were not against the IFP. Ninety nine percent of the black were, he associated ninety nine percent of the black population as against the AWB, as I understood it. Do you want to clear it up with him? I will give you an opportunity to clear it up just now if you want to.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you. Sir, just to take the matter further, would it be fair to say that when you looked at the black people, bearing in mind that for you ninety nine percent do not belong to the IFP, you wouldn't in fact be able to detect where the one percent lied within the black community?

MR VENTER: On your previous question, if I may make a statement there, what I meant is for the majority of people on the black side was ANC. If that person wasn't ANC I really wouldn't have known then. I didn't go about and ask the person are you ANC or IFP, I knew that the IFP's was Inkatha Freedom Party and the rest of the people I saw as ANC, not individuals as in: "Listen are you ANC or not", I saw them as ANC.

MR MOTLAUNG: I see. Did anybody, up to the stage that you went about throwing bombs, did anybody specifically say to you that black people generally should be targeted by these bombs?

MR VENTER: Beforehand and with the orders that were given it was not said especially: "Don't kill blacks", it was said: "Go plant the bomb at taxi ranks", and that is what we did.

MR MOTLAUNG: In fact if I understand your evidence well - in fact let me put it the other way around, may you please look at your application, page 149 paragraph 18 and I quote

"And then we went to Randfontein and I drove the vehicle, considering the fact that I knew the area well. We must ourselves choose an appropriate target and our target was the taxi rank at Randfontein."

Is that correct what is stated there?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: So you chose the target yourself?

MR VENTER: No. I was told to go to Randfontein and plant a bomb at the taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, I am talking about this particular taxi rank was your own choice?

MR VENTER: Alright.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sorry?

MR VENTER: No, I was told to go there. Now I got there and I saw that this is the taxi rank in Randfontein, so I knew where my target was. We brought the car to a standstill and we planted the bomb at the taxi rank where it was told to be planted. I didn't go and say: "Ah is this taxi, no it has got two or three or ten people in it", my order was to go and plant it at the taxi rank so I didn't go pick and choose. I just did and saw. alright this is the general area that I must plant it and I planted it there.

MR MOTLAUNG: What does this phrase mean

"We had to find an appropriate target ourselves"

MR VENTER: That is what I just explained to you.

MR MOTLAUNG: But what does it mean Sir? You yourself had to choose a target?

MR VENTER: The appropriate target yes, and we did. The taxi rank in Randfontein, that was the target.

MR MOTLAUNG: Who chose it?

MR VENTER: I was told to go there, I didn't choose it. I got my order to go to Randfontein taxi rank and I got in the car and drove to Randfontein taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, I think I hear what you are saying but ...(intervention)

MR VENTER: So that was not my choice.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter your application reads as follows

"We had to ourselves find an appropriate target and our target was the taxi rank in Randfontein."

I think the problem lies with the fact that your application reads:

"We had to find an appropriate target ourselves."

So he understands that it was the instruction, but who told you that it has got to be a specific taxi rank? Did some one tell you that or did you yourself choose it? Out of all the taxi ranks did you choose this specific taxi rank yourself?

MR VENTER: Chairperson, then I refer back to the circumstances where I became involved at the bomb mission with regards to Randfontein. People asked me: "Do you know Randfontein", I said: "Yes". They said: "Okay you are going to drive the car, you are going to Randfontein". There were already people chosen to go to Randfontein. They wanted some one else to go and the instruction was: "A taxi rank". So the general direction in which we had to head was Randfontein and the choice about the planting of the bomb was a taxi rank and that is the conclusion I made. It was said that we must go to Randfontein, we went there. The instruction was to place a bomb at a taxi rank, a taxi rank at Randfontein. That is what I was informed.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you said: "We ourselves had to find an appropriate target"?

MR VENTER: At the taxi rank itself, an appropriate target.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. An appropriate target?

MR VENTER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Motlaung.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Venter, I put it to you that the interpretation that you now wish we should attach to your evidence cannot be because if you look at the same sentence that I quoted, you say:

"We ourselves had to find an appropriate target and our target was the taxi rank Randfontein."

It cannot be that you intended here that you actually mean a specific target now at this same taxi rank. You make it clear that the target was the taxi rank, Sir.

MR VENTER: Okay can you go to paragraph 18, the first sentence, what does it say there?

"In our mission to Randfontein"

Do you see it there?

"In our mission to Randfontein I drove the vehicle"

My order at the game farm was the taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Any taxi rank, you were not told which specific one, correct?

MR VENTER: Okay but we were on our way to Randfontein. MR MOTLAUNG: Were you told which specific taxi rank in Randfontein, Sir?

MR VENTER: No, that wasn't a specific taxi rank. If there were six or ten I really didn't know.

MR MOTLAUNG: So this specific one was chosen by yourself, correct?

MR VENTER: Yes, if you ask the question that way, yes. If you come to the point to say I chose that exact taxi rank, yes, because I didn't know if there was 5 or 6 but if you say my objective was that my choice, no, that was an order.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay Sir, let's talk now about your target being taxi ranks. What made you think that an appropriate target for you would be a black taxi rank?

MR VENTER: That was not my choice Sir.

MR MOTLAUNG: Whose choice was it?

MR VENTER: The people, the superiors that gave me the order, that was their decision and their choice.

MR MOTLAUNG: So their decision and their choice was specifically to say to you that it must be a black taxi rank?

MR VENTER: That is correct Sir. I just did what was asked and told to do.

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir, looking at the position that you held within the Ystergarde, the meetings that you say you attended, particularly apparently also the closed meetings which one may term closed meetings, I get the impression that you were very close to decisions that were being taken at the highest levels within the AWB, is that impression correct?

MR VENTER: No, that is the wrong impression you've got Sir, I was mere a bodyguard. A bodyguard looks after the leader as Terreblanche now. I had no say in what they decided or when it was decided, I just protected the person itself.

MR MOTLAUNG: But when they discussed things you were present?

MR VENTER: No.

MR MOTLAUNG: Were you not there?

MR VENTER: No. Some of the times, minor meetings yes, I was present in the vicinity standing 10 or 5 yards away from Terreblanche himself but in closed meetings in this capacity we got feedback to what was said via Mr Terreblanche himself but we did perimeter protection. Perimeter protection is like these people standing outside now, they don't know what is going on inside here, but I was there and I got feedback from what was said and this is what we are going to do, this is how we are going to fight, we need arms, we need this. That is in a manner that I served Mr Terreblanche.

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir almost finally tell me, you know the way you talk about how Barnard gave you certain instructions, how Koper Myburgh also gave you certain instructions, it looks like, and correct the impression if it is wrong, it looks like there was a big secret that they were busy about, Barnard and Myburgh. Even you the people who were in the Ystergarde, fairly higher levels within the Ystergarde, did not know what they were up to, is that correct?

MR VENTER: Sir, if I must put it to you this way: At that stage I left the head office and I was farming in the Lushof district which is between Lichtenburg and Mafeking, when these people phoned me and said: "Listen this is time, now you must come up to head office". I did not know of any bombs, any pipe bombs or vehicle bombs or whatever they planned, I didn't know of it. I walked into a situation where they told me: "From now on you do this and that". At that stage I was told to do it, I was given a command.

MR MOTLAUNG: I understand but it seems to me even at that time, this command there was something secret about it because initially you were told that look there is some business that we want to finish, that is what Barnard told you, and then at some later stage Koper Myburgh told you that what was loaded in the car apparently was something like manure if I understood the term correctly.

MR VENTER: No, Sir, not manure.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay, fertiliser. Now I mean, can you see that they were not even being open with yourself?

MR VENTER: I don't know, I don't know if I must even try to put you into that frame of mind. In a circumstance like this I cannot ask questions to those people and I can't question them for what their ideas and goals were because they were told to do something, they got an order, the way I see it. I am not there to go and question them: "Listen what were you told, what is the plan of action here"? I cannot go question them on that. So if he doesn't tell me about it I am not going to ask him about it. If its secret and if it is kept one side, that is his business because he has been delegated to do that and I can't question him on that. That is how I see it from the Army's side, that is how I saw it as a para-military organisation in the AWB. I cannot go and question him.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, let me put it this way ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VENTER: Or manure.

MR MOTLAUNG: Let me put it this way, did you expect Barnard and Koper Myburgh, that when you ask questions, they should give you sincere answers?

MR VENTER: When I asked Koper Myburgh what was in the car, because I mean it is so obvious the car came there empty and now he comes back to the Holiday Inn parking and this car is packed like this, and I asked him: "What's that mate?", and he said: "kunsmus". I mean I am not an explosives expert, I don't know. I mean "kunsmus" for me goes into a mielie land, so he said "kunsmus" and I took it "kunsmus", "What the hell you going to do with kunsmus?" was not my question, I accepted that it was "kunsmus."

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] symptoms were evident before this whole operation started.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Venter, you know with simply following orders in this manner and with this whole secrecy issue, didn't you run the risk of being drawn into a splinter group in the sense that the splinter group would not being doing what the AWB has authorised as an organisation? If you didn't ask questions would it not be running that risk or did it not matter?

MR VENTER: Mr Chairman, at that time I did not know what these people were planning. I was told to go to Ventersdorp and from there I would have gone up to the "wildplaas" or wherever

they were because I didn't know. But at that stage when these two people approached me and said I must drive shotgun for them I did not know what it was for. Yes, maybe if we had to get to Welkom and they had to assassinate somebody or plant a bomb there yes, I would have been involved but I didn't know what it was and they didn't tell me, I walked blindly into something.

At the stage where we stopped at Klerksdorp and we loaded the pipe bombs, it came to, well I realised bang, here is it now. They spoke about war and: "Get the things and we going into it", and here is it now back to reality here is the stuff here in front of me. I accepted it, I didn't ask questions.

ADV GCABASHE: So if indeed they are found to have been on a frolic of their own to have done things that were not authorised by the organisation, where does your amnesty application fit in with that, because you are saying to us you were acting as a member of the organisation?

MR VENTER: Yes, Ma'am.

ADV GCABASHE: Where would that fit in, because it has been submitted that these were things that were done by people who were not necessarily following orders.

MR VENTER: No, Ma'am.

ADV GCABASHE: What do we then do with your application?

MR VENTER: That is how these people might see it. The way I saw it I come from head office or used to work at head office, I must add that I used to work there. I left for a couple of reasons that time but at that stage people working at head office, being at head office in the Ystergarde house, Cliff Barnard came to me and asked me: "Have you got a vehicle available"? and I said: "Yes, he said: "Right come, we are going or you must drive shotgun for us", I said: "Okay".

But my state of mind at that time was AWB and everybody in it, Terreblanche, the General staff, Cliff Barnard, Koper Myburgh, myself and whoever was involved at that time already, so I did not question whether this was direct from ET himself or from the Generals staff or from whom. I accepted that this was a AWB's decision and I acted as an AWB on that decision.

So if they had to tell me jump in the sea I think I would have followed them because that is what they wanted me to do, and I went for it because I saw it as AWB. I didn't know there was a splinter group. I didn't know maybe Mr Barnard had his own agenda, I really didn't know. We or myself in my view acted as a AWB at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you now think that it was in fact a splinter group?

MR VENTER: No, it was a direct order, as I see it and I understand it and know of it, that it comes from a General staff and Mr Terreblanche had to know about it because all these things were in preparation for this weekend. All these trips that we made to Welkom was in preparation for this weekend, the pipe bombs and all.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Venter let's think about it now and relate it to the circumstances of the time. Here Mr Terreblanche gets onto television and he makes all types of statements openly, publicly. The whole world knows what the AWB's attitude and principles are in respect on a number of matters including the elections, but here in preparation for this war everything is so secretive amongst its own battalion, why?

MR VENTER: Mr Chairman, at that stage being involved in a couple of other incidents, I think these people what I see now is not what they did, it is what I say now. I see these people were very secretive about it for one good reason, we had so many elements inside the AWB, inside the "Boervolk" that was back-stabbers.

One of these people in front here, the attorney asked me earlier on how do I see it and that is how it is. So they were secretive because of so many elements inside of us that were back stabbers, hey, people made money out of this selling information.

So I think these people were okay stupid in planting bombs but also clever enough not to get back-stabbed before the time. That is why it was so secretive. That is my motivation of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this then, you seem to insist that Terreblanche must have known about all ...[intervention]

MR VENTER: He had to yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the other possibility that he didn't know it and it was in fact a splinter group, do you discount that?

MR VENTER: In my small brain capacity as a little Captain in the Ystergarde no way he had to know, he had to know because the elements and the people right around him, the Generals staff, I mean him and Barnard is like brothers, wherever he goes Barnard is there. They have done so many things on their own that I cannot even explain to you what they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you include the Generals staff then also must have known about all these things?

MR VENTER: Yes of course. The way I see it Generals staff as in total all the other Generals, alright there might be a couple of Generals that did not know about it but the Generals who was involved at those certain meetings at Ventersdorp, at that Trim Park, on the "skietbaan" and on the "wildplaas", those Generals including Ackerman, Cruywagen, Smit, General Terreblanche himself, ET's brother and Nico Prinsloo. I mean that was the main frame of the General staff, those were the main peanuts in the packet and they had to know about it, they had to know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Very interesting example.

MR VENTER: That is how I see it Sir, that is how I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: But why couldn't - I am just investigating I am not saying that you are wrong or right.

MR VENTER: No, I am not wrong Sir. I am definitely right.

CHAIRPERSON: You are drawing your conclusions which may be correct.

MR VENTER: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I am just investigating other alternatives, why could it not be that those Generals whom you refer to, why could they not be the splinter group?

MR VENTER: Without Terreblanche's knowledge? No ways Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR VENTER: Then he was part of the splinter group as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you insist that he would have had knowledge of that?

MR VENTER: As I said they were the main peanuts in the packet, they knew exactly what he knew and he knew what they knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying their relationship was so close that they could not be separated?

MR VENTER: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was his relationship with his brother who was also a General, close?

MR VENTER: Close yes, very close.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that ...(intervention)

MR VENTER: Some days ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There is no way that Mr Terreblanche the General would keep secrets from his brother the leader?

MR VENTER: There I must just correct myself. General Terreblanche although he was a bigger brother between him and Terreblanche, sometimes I think the AWB would have gone much further if he was the leader because he had the heart for it, he had the, I mean his heart was like, he is a good "ou". Some things were sometimes in a very big fighting mood between them, amongst them. Because ET did things that General Terreblanche didn't agree with, so I cannot say he knew about the bombs ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Does ...(indistinct)

MR VENTER: Maybe Terreblanche kept it from him but I think they knew.

CHAIRPERSON: It increases the possibilities that Terreblanche senior may very well have been part of a splinter group acting without the knowledge of the leader, is that not so?

MR VENTER: Sir, I wouldn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Given that they had disagreements also.

MR VENTER: Yes, then I will say yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you concede that as a possibility? I am not saying it is so.

MR VENTER: As a possibility yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you attend the meeting at Trim Park Mr Venter?

MR VENTER: No, Ma'am.

ADV BOSMAN: But there was evidence yesterday that at the Trim Park ET as you call him said that all this war talk must first be sort of investigated, people should go back to their commanders and enquire whether they are in fact ready for war. Is it not possible that there from that could have come a split between Mr Terreblanche and his Generals who were all hyped up and psyched up to fight? I am just asking your opinion, obviously you can't say whether this was so.

MR VENTER: Okay, if I can correct my opinion that side. If I say the way I saw it, it was not said: "Go and find out if your people are ready", "go and make them ready, get them ready, let them get medical supplies, let them get their arms, their ammunition, let them be at a readiness level for this order that is supposed to come". I didn't see it as go and find out, I saw it as: "Get the people ready for that what was coming".

CHAIRPERSON: You see that enquiry in terms of the evidence that we have heard, was a direct result of a call to war by one of the Generals. And then according to the evidence Mr Terreblanche said: "Hokaai, let us find out if our people really want war or are prepared for war".

MR VENTER: Okay there I cannot say what happened there Sir. What I can say is I got the feedback on my farm where I was told these were the decisions made in Ventersdorp so you must prepare yourself for whatever is on its way, and I did my preparation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which message, which information may have been incorrect that you received, although you believed it?

MR VENTER: Yes it might be.

MR MALAN: May I just follow up on this splinter group which might have been lead by the General Terreblanche as a scenario or possibility. You said if I heard you correctly that the General was a good "ou" and he had a heart like this and you made a gesture. Are you saying that compared to the leader he is a softy or a toughie?

MR VENTER: No, no, no I didn't say he was a softie. I said ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Or more caring or?

MR VENTER: More caring.

MR MALAN: More human?

MR VENTER: Much more so.

MR MALAN: Now if that is so would it be likely that he would lead a splinter group that would take harsher decisions than the leader would approve of because that is how I understood you initially and I want to make sure what the frame is.

MR VENTER: No, General Terreblanche himself won't lead a splinter group like that, he would not even suggest it.

MR MALAN: He would rather be a check on his brother than sort of fire under ...(intervention)

MR VENTER: The aggressor yeah.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Did you mean then that his brother would have gone further than?

MR VENTER: No, he would have been a better leader that is why I say because his got the heart for it. He would look after his people. He won't drop them in the deep side and turn around and walk away.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

ADV GCABASHE: Just to round that off. But if you compared the two brothers the one more likely to get cold feet would be junior, ET not senior the General?

MR VENTER: In your words yes Ma'am.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you agreeing with that?

MR VENTER: Correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Please explain what do you meaning with getting cold feet? I am now confused because I get two messages please.

MR VENTER: I just want to bring it under your attention that what I am saying here is totally my words and my view. While I was in the AWB it was Ystergarde special task force and the elite and all that and we were boosted by the AWB the leader, this is my man or this is the greatest or this one is a good captain or whatever, but when it comes to the question of cold feet I refer back to the bombing. As the lady next to you said cold feet I will say, once the ...[indistinct] hit the fan and he had to give us full back-up on it and said: "Listen these are my people, they did it for us". He could have got up and said it but he never did, that is why I say cold feet, not as much as cold feet. I think he wasn't there to get the cold feet.

We did it in belief for the leader that stood with us that said "sa dood." Now when the "sa dood" was done there was nobody for us and I think he got cold feet. That is why he sent you a fax, he didn't come here in person and deliver it.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir talking about the Germiston bomb would it then be fair to say that as far as that particular bomb is concerned for you as an AWB member it came as a shock? You knew nothing about it or had an idea that something like this would happen in Germiston?

MR VENTER: I didn't know Germiston was going to happen but when it happened I knew it was us. It didn't come to a shock to me because the previous day there was a bomb that went off and this is the struggle, this is the struggle that is going on, this is what we were told to do and we went for it. So the Bree Street bomb I think was the ignition, the beginning of it and when the pipe bombs went out and Germiston went, it was just a snowball effect and it was running.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir let's put it this way. As far as the pipe bombs were concerned you knew about them and that they were going to go off, correct?

MR VENTER: That is correct, yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: As far as the Bree Street bomb is concerned you had no glue, no slightest idea that it was going to go off, correct?

MR VENTER: No, I did not know about the Bree Street bomb, only afterwards I found out then I made the assumption that we were involved.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, because look for me I may be prepared to accept that certain people who belonged to the AWB planted these bombs but now I am saying, and I want you to go along and guide me, I am saying to myself these may have been some very few individuals within the AWB who decided to do their own thing at that particular stage?

MR VENTER: No, Sir. I do not agree with that because coming from the West Transvaal, my area Lichtenburg, North West as it is being called now, there was a lot of AWB's Wen Kommando that was gathered there. There were so many people gathered all over the West Transvaal where the Volkstaat would have been, so I did not see it as a splinter group or just a couple of us that was doing the terror. I accepted, I waited for the rest of the people to get up and go, to get active as well because that was what was said, that was what was told that they are going to do as well, they are going to pick up the arms and take over and defend. Alright, back to reality, it never happened because they didn't go that far, we went and we did it not as a splinter group, we got the command to do it. We expected the other people that were called up to certain areas to go about and do exactly the same. Okay not exactly the same as plant bombs but also to fight the struggle and it never happened because back to the reality again, once two or three people got arrested, the rest ran like cowards back to their houses, they weren't there for support for us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, in conclusion, what I am saying to you is the following: When the Bree Street bomb went off and when the Germiston bomb went off you loved the result, as an individual you loved the fact that black people were dying there but you had no prior knowledge that this is what the AWB planned?

MR VENTER: Can you just turn your question because I never agreed to saying I loved what happened, I did it because I was a soldier and it was my task to do it. I won't go toyi-toyi if your brains lies on the floor. That was something we had to do, I didn't love it, I did it because I was a freedom fighter. So you can state your question again, just don't use love.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay. Look, you see the possibility that I am seriously looking at here is that I am actually shocked in the first place that bearing in mind what position you held within the AWB and the Ystergarde and that you were not somewhere here in Jo'burg, you were at the place where the things were happening. That when these bombs come for you they also come when you didn't expected them. You didn't expect the Germiston bomb, you didn't expect the Bree Street bomb, correct?

MR VENTER: No, I did not.

MR MOTLAUNG: And tell me if anything, if you later find out that anything has been done by an AWB member, do I understand your state of mind correctly that you would then assume that it must necessarily have come from the leadership?

MR VENTER: Sir, Mr Chairman, in this situation that we were placed in there is no doubt in my mind that it did not come from head office, that it did not come from the superiors and the Generals staff. There is no doubt in my mind that it was a splinter group that had to do this, it was the AWB. It was told and said by the leaders and the General staff to do it and we went and did it. Where I got involved my state of mind said pipe bombs in the back of my vehicle, I associated myself planting pipe bombs. When it came to my surprise that it was a Bree Street bomb, as soon as I saw it I questioned Koper Myburgh on it. The next thing that went off I was not at Koesterfontein, I was at the "wildsplaas." The next thing that came to my mind is this big bang down in Germiston and that I only heard when I came back from Randfontein. I did not know about Germiston bomb that left because this was done at a different spot, more or less as you heard the other evidence 30 km, 15 or 10 or whatever. I wasn't there. I never went there and I never discussed it what was going on there, so when those bombs went that is when I knew about it.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Venter I think what Mr Motlaung is asking or suggesting to you, that while you may not have expected certain explosions, the overall intended chaos when it did come to your knowledge that certain bombs had gone off, it was gratifying given the policy as you understood it where the targets would be mainly blacks. Now that is what he is suggesting to you, that the successes was gratifying to you.

MR VENTER: If I can put it in different words I can say that every bomb that went off I knew it was us that put it off. For every bomb that went off I knew it was us that put it off.

ADV BOSMAN: I think Mr Motlaung goes further, he said that you experienced a feeling of success.

MR VENTER: I did reach my goal, no success, it was not successful. I did follow my order and reach my objective. There is never success there is always the loss of life, so for me I would just like to refer you back to my statement. It stands here that

three of the pipe bombs were a success and the Krugersdorp group buried their bomb next to the road. I wrote in here because the word success I don't deserve.

I wrote here three of the pipe bomb missions were executed according to the plans and that is my view. It was a plan, it was delegated and said do it and that is how I saw it, I did it and I think the other people they went and did the same was also in the same state of mind of doing it. I won't say a success. I will say yes, we accomplished our goal.

MR MALAN: Mr Venter, I cannot think that you were completely uninvolved in this, you either had to feel positive or negative about it if you saw this. In other words it is either at least on the way of reaching your goal or it was a negative feeling or awareness that was left with you. Now the question to you was did you support it, were you satisfied with that. You said that you wrote it in here, it was executed according to the planning, do you not feel positive about it?

MR VENTER: I was positively motivated yes.

MR MALAN: But the question that was put to you what was your reaction?

MR VENTER: I would just like to move away from the word success which this person used. I did not feel excited or feel really good about it and jumped up and shouted yes. Positive, I would say that we reached our objective. In the whole set-up I was motivated for the goal or I would say that we did obtain or reach our goals.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

And Sir tell me as a trained soldier looking back, would you say that you have killed innocent civilians by your conduct?

MR VENTER: In this situation of the pre-election bombing?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he conceded that.

MR VENTER: Just to come back to your question yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: And at the time that you went about your deeds, did you realise that in the process you will kill innocent civilians?

MR VENTER: Yes, Sir but my motivation was for Volkstaat, for this determination of the Boer and the Afrikaner. I did it in that manner. Now I can say we killed innocent people.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes. Just as a parting shot, you see why I am saying these things is that I will be inclined to argue maybe later that maybe you had a just war to fight the way you perceived it, but looking at it the way you went about it that you didn't have a target, you chose innocent civilians.

MR VENTER: No, Sir I do not agree there.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman there is not much left for me but there is one or two points that I may, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Venter reference was made to Exhibit F, that was a statement attributed to Mr Eugene Terreblanche on the 8th of February 1994, where he said inter alia that the bombs that had gone off in the Western Transvaal and the Free State, he said that this would increase if the Afrikaners never obtained their Volkstaat. My question is were you aware of that speech or that report, that is before you went up to the "wildsplaas"?

MR VENTER: Yes, Sir, I was aware of this and I was also aware of the bombs that went off before the free election.

MR PRIOR: So when you heard on the Sunday that the 24th on the news that the Bree Street bomb had gone off you weren't surprised that this bomb had in fact gone off. This was now the start of something because the bombings had been around for some time.

MR VENTER: Ja. It was going on for a while.

MR PRIOR: Another thing that strikes my eye when I went through the bundle is that there was a substantial amount of weaponry seized by the police from the "skietbaan."

That appears at page 19 and 20 of bundle 2, that is volume 2 Mr Chairman.

I noticed there were 16 machine guns or automatic weapons. Mainly R1's, R4's and R5's.

MR VENTER: That is correct ja.

MR PRIOR: Something like 30 000 plus rounds of ammunition of various calibre, there were about 11 unlicensed weapons and 40 licensed weapons amidst the whole host of explosives. Were you aware of that type of weaponry available at the "wildsplaas"?

MR VENTER: Yes Sir, it was told that we must steal otherwise get otherwise bring, but we brought it. I knew that there was a lot of people with R1's and R4's and R5's and ammo and that.

MR PRIOR: The point of my question is at the "wildsplaas," this camp that we have heard of, Mr Fourie said the camp was set up more or less along the lines of a conventional army camp operating in a war type situation, was there a central place where weapons were stored and ammunition was stored?

MR VENTER: No, Sir.

MR PRIOR: So where was the - I beg your pardon, this was found at the shooting range, but in the camp itself where was the explosives held or where was the thousands of rounds of ammunition, where was that kept?

MR VENTER: Okay the explosives I wouldn't know where it was kept but I know for a fact that each and every individual person there carried their arms and ammunition with them, if not in a kit bag in the car or wherever but these people had their own little arsenal of rounds of ammunition.

MR PRIOR: My next question, was there an expectation that weapons, conventional weapons like machine guns, etc., would have to be used over that period? Was that told to you, that there may be an attack or there may not be an attack or why there was a necessity for such a large amount of weaponry?

MR VENTER: You see the idea that I formed around this whole this whole situation is for us to protect ourselves as an individual, as Ystergarde Captain or whatever the rank may be, is to bring your own firearms and as many rounds as possible to protect yourself and if needed, because the whole idea was going out to the farms and protect them, to have enough arms and ammunition to be able to do this for the Volkstaat when the "oorlog" would have come and we had to protect the borders of that. So yes, I think that was, in the back of your mind you prepared yourself for this type of war.

MR PRIOR: Let me get closer to what I am actually driving at, were you ever instructed or informed that you would have to attack for example a military type installation for example the military if they never supported you or the police if they were against you or for example the ANC if they were going to take up weapons to stop what you were doing up in the Western Transvaal?

MR VENTER: It was said we will get our Volkstaat over the barrel of a gun.

MR PRIOR: Who said that?

MR VENTER: Eugene Terreblanche.

MR PRIOR: But wasn't that just political rhetoric, hot air?

MR VENTER: Hot air if you see it that way but for me every time he spoke, every time he got to the act of: we had to do this, that was all a growing stage for this "oorlog" he was planning.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever question what Eugene Terreblanche was saying at meetings?

MR VENTER: To whom am I going to put that question, to him?

MR PRIOR: Well were you not - was it not a democratic type organisation?

MR VENTER: No, Sir, you don't ask that man any questions.

MR PRIOR: Well I needed to ask you. You indicated that after the Bree Street bomb and certainly after the Germiston bomb and the pipe bombs, there were 4 or so Generals at the "wildsplaas" and/or "skietbaan."

MR VENTER: Before and after yes.

MR PRIOR: I need to know from you did any of those Generals at any stage say anything about the bombs, whether they agreed with that or it was to continue or not to continue?

MR VENTER: If they had anything to say about it negatively, if they had to say: "Hey, why did you do it"?, I think he would have shouted it out and shot us or kicked us in or something, but they walked around satisfied with smiles on their faces. They didn't say: "Hey gents that what you have done is wrong", never not once so they knew what was going on.

MR PRIOR: That was from their silence that you are drawing that assumption?

MR VENTER: No, they went about normally. So he walks up to you, you meet him or you greet him say: "Morning or afternoon or evening General". They didn't say: "Hey, you people just made big ...(indistinct) in this country", they were happy with it.

MR PRIOR: What I need to know was there ever a order group or a meeting where the Generals, those who you have mentioned: Terreblanche, Prinsloo, Cruywagen, etc., called the men there together and said: "Listen what has been happening here is not our policy or it is our policy"?

MR VENTER: They never came back and said this that what happened wasn't our policy, they never said that.

MR PRIOR: Or did they say to the men there that it was their policy?

MR VENTER: Well we were carrying on what was told.

MR PRIOR: Just answer the question. Did they ever say positively that it was their policy or are you simply assuming it from their conduct, the smiles and the way they greeted you and greeted the men and treated the men?

MR VENTER: I think for the General to discuss that manner with me as a Captain would never happen. He had his people that they spoke to, so that line of me going into a General's office and say do you like the idea that I planted a bomb is out.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying from their general demeanour?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You certainly accepted or assumed or believed that they knew?

MR VENTER: Accepted and believed yes.

MR PRIOR: What was going on.

MR VENTER: That is correct, Sir.

MR PRIOR: There is just one other aspect I need to ask you about. The Ystergarde, were there any ordinary troops in the Ystergarde because we know that there were either lieutenants or captains?

MR VENTER: We had what they called candidate officers.

MR PRIOR: Sorry and candidate officers.

MR VENTER: Yes Sir, that is the lowest form of rank that was in the iron guard, candidate officer.

MR PRIOR: How did you understand it, could you take as a lieutenant now could you give another lieutenant orders?

MR VENTER: Sir, as a para-military unit as is called the AWB Ystergarde, if we look at the rank structure if I am a Captain and let's say Vlok or whoever is also a Captain and you as Brigadier came to me and told me to do something.

MR PRIOR: Brigadier who? The Wen Kommando?

MR VENTER: Yes, even a brigadier of the Wen Kommando.

MR PRIOR: Sorry I don't want to confuse the issue let's stay with Ystergarde candidate officers, Lieutenants, Captains and who was in overall control of the Ystergarde?

MR VENTER: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

MR PRIOR: So he was the only other rank other than a captain or the captain to give ...(intervention)

MR VENTER: No, no we had Majors, we had Commandant Major, Brigadier.

MR PRIOR: Sorry I was, now it is more clear to me.

MR VENTER: Okay so out of that structure if one told, if the higher ranking officer told a lieutenant to tell another lieutenant to do something he had to do it because that instruction came from the brigadier or from the major or whoever. He never questioned that, he had to do it.

MR PRIOR: There seems to have been some confusion of orders filtering down whether it was from a person in the Wen Kommando or the Generals staff passing it on to for example some one like Cliffy Barnard. A lot of the men or the applicants testified here that they didn't know really who he was accept that he was close to the leader and they didn't know what his rank was.

MR VENTER: Cliffy Barnard acted like the "Skim". He was underground always busy with something different to what you were busy, so you never knew what Cliffy Barnard was doing only he himself knew what he was doing.

MR PRIOR: But you say he was very close to the leader?

MR VENTER: Yes, he was.

MR PRIOR: So he wasn't just an ordinary office worker?

MR VENTER: No, he was not.

MR PRIOR: In the head office. He was some one that?

MR VENTER: He was the trustee of Terreblanche.

MR PRIOR: Did he have recognition in the Ystergarde?

MR VENTER: Yes because of his rank in the Wen Kommando - look I also had two posts that I filled. In the Wen Kommando ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: What were you in the Wen Kommando?

MR VENTER: Commandant.

MR PRIOR: A Commandant?

MR VENTER: Yes, until the decision came through from head office that we had to make the choice of the split, do I want to serve just the iron guard or do I want to serve the Wen Kommando.

MR PRIOR: So if you serve, let me interrupt you there, so if you served only in the Ystergarde you would be a captain?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So some one in the Wen Kommando a commandant could give you orders and tell you what to do or was he not allowed to give orders to Ystergarde?

MR VENTER: If it was accepted by my chief in charge, Leon van der Merwe, if he went to Leon and said listen we going to use Captain Venter in this and this area is it allowed then I had to take orders from that man yes.

MR PRIOR: But then that would have to be imparted to the men, that the order was approved of by some one senior?

MR VENTER: Yes, and that was every time said. That is how we accepted Clifford Barnard as our superior officer.

MR PRIOR: I want to ask you just one thing finally, of the 10 applicants that we have with us today, are they all Ystergarde?

MR VENTER: Yes, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Is no one of the applicants that you know of is just purely Wen Kommando?

MR VENTER: They had posts in the Wen Kommando.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR VENTER: Ja, but not just Wen Kommando no Sir.

MR PRIOR: The people that were called up to and were stationed at the "wildsplaas" in Magaliesberg district were all Ystergarde?

MR VENTER: Out of us here yes but there was Natalians as well.

MR PRIOR: I will come to the Natalians. The Natalians seemed to have done very little there that weekend.

MR VENTER: No they were ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: They weren't chosen to go and through pipe bombs or to go and assist.

MR VENTER: Yes, they were.

MR PRIOR: Alright. There was just one other thing.

ADV GCABASHE: Again of the applicants who are here today, how many do you know of were ET's personal bodyguards?

MR VENTER: Each and every one of us.

ADV GCABASHE: I thought so. No, no, no except for Mr du Plessis. I didn't get that impression from Mr du Plessis, and Mr du Plessis?

MR VENTER: Can I just correct the whole idea here. When Mr Terreblanche went to Durban, there was iron guard protecting him there as bodyguard, when he went to the Cape or West Transvaal there was bodyguards to do that in those areas but out of head office it was myself, Jan de Wet and Mr Vlok that were directly there with the leader. Okay, we were a couple of other people as well but in each and every district as we travelled for the meetings we had people there. We couldn't take 10 people from head office there. We had people in the areas so one or two goes with the leader to a certain area and there we get the other people as bodyguards doing the protection there.

ADV GCABASHE: But are you then saying that every member of the Ystergarde was therefore a bodyguard no that is not what you are saying?

MR VENTER: They were trained for bodyguards but they weren't always in a bodyguard position. Ninety nine percent or most of the time as a training instructors for the Wen Kommando.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Leading on from that would I be correct in suggesting then to you that the people responsible for the bombings were mainly or exclusively Ystergarde personnel?

MR VENTER: We served Eugene Terreblanche as his guard, so he picked us specifically for that task, yes it was.

MR PRIOR: Ja, but he never picked you specifically to go and plant bombs, that was your assumption that the order came from him. You got the order at the "wildsplaas" on the 24th.

MR VENTER: Now my question is why would it just be Ystergarde?

MR PRIOR: That is my question Mr Venter. It seems to me from listening to all the evidence that the only people responsible with the bombings were Ystergarde.

MR VENTER: There was a couple of Natalians of the Wen Kommando, they call themselves special task force or ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Who were they that went along, are you able to name any names? Were they part of the 26 too?

MR VENTER: Yes, in the court there were 5 or 6 of them.

MR PRIOR: Alright, I don't want to leave the Committee with the wrong impression that it was only Ystergarde from Ventersdorp that were ...(intervention)

MR VENTER: No, there was Natalians involved. There were 5 or 6 of them involved in the court case itself. There were a couple of them that got sentenced as well with us.

MR PRIOR: But they haven't asked for amnesty?

MR VENTER: I am not sure, I think Oelie.

MR PRIOR: Is he one of the Natalians?

MR VENTER: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Okay. I think that is all thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt, you have no questions?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR MALAN: Mr Venter, the thing which is bothering me all the time is also this question of the "Ystergarde", it seems to me the Ystergarde members were called from all over the country to Ventersdorp despite the fact that as the evidence has been lead, there was different places where people gathered together in the Western Transvaal. Do you know of another place in the Western Transvaal where there was a big concentration of "Ystergaard" members?

MR VENTER: No, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So it would seem at least one person had an agenda which was to bring together the "Ystergarde" members who had a lot of experience, bring them together at one point?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you say this must have come from the Generals in staff, that is your evidence? You say that the Generals in staff must have planned this. Would that include the call-up instructions?

MR VENTER: That is correct. Mr Terreblanche would have known about us being together there.

MR MALAN: Ja but this is still looking at the other possibility, why for example could Cliffy Barnard not have had his own agenda, and whilst he had contact with all the "Ystergaard" members he could have gotten them there himself?

MR VENTER: No, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Or General Nico Prinsloo but an individual might have had his own agenda with regards to this big gathering of people.

MR VENTER: Then it would not have happened in this context. Let me put it this way, we had the two divisions, the ones making the car bombs and the others the pipe bombs. The two operations would have been separate completely if that was the case. Mr Terreblanche had to know because the Generals in staff were involved, the Generals in staff were involved because Nico Prinsloo knew about, Nico knew it because Cliffy was involved, Cliffy because Koper was involved. There was no way if you look at the circumstances of the AWB and the head office, there is no way that this could have happened any other way because then everybody could have gotten into a vehicle and like the previous bombs exploded, then everybody would have gone separate into a vehicle and go and plant a bomb and then come back, everything under the table, then it could have happened like that but in this situation it was planned and it was given to us in that fashion otherwise it would not have happened.

MR MALAN: But then it seems to me that it must have been planned that whichever bombs went out, whether from the game farm or the shooting range, it doesn't seem that there were any other bombs going from any other gathering point.

MR VENTER: That is correct, that is why I am saying it was very well planned attempt, a pre-prepared attempt to do these things. That is why I am saying we had to go and get the explosives. Somebody told us to go and get the explosives in Welkom. The pipe bombs had to go and get loaded after loads of them were made in Klerksdorp, so it was fine planning, it wasn't a question of like okay let's go and make pipe bombs, let's make things. The bombs were already there, that was the reason and that is why they got us together to go and do all the dirty work.

MR MALAN: Do you know how many pipe bombs there were in total?

MR VENTER: I do not know, I did not count them, they were in bags but the Golf's boot was loaded.

MR MALAN: Would you know about the pipes that you took out and you talked about thick pipes, would you say they were 80, 300?

MR VENTER: With the evidence that came out they talk about round about 20. There was these big sand bags - there might have been one or two in a bag. We stuffed them underneath the seats. We let the seats down and we placed all these bombs there right up into the boot. And later we learnt in the court that there must have been around 20. I did not go around and count them.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. A related question in a sense. It would therefore be correct for me to say that all the other people you say were gathered at other farms who had responded to the call-up those people really responded to the call-up on a defensive note. They had come together to be together with people of their kind to defend themselves. They weren't in an offensive mode as your specific group was. Would that be fair?

MR VENTER: No Ma'am. I was under the conclusion that these people were called-up for war. It was put, it was said, it was told, it was brainwashed this is going to be "oorlog". This is going to be war. And once the things happened they disappeared. Not to say that this was a question of they were for the offensive. They were there to fight with us. And they never came to it. It never came to - the order weren't given to them to carry on from there. The people sold their houses, sold their cars got caravans and bought packets and packets of tin food for this war. I mean why the hell will a man sell his car and his house to go to war and then two days later or a week later sit in the middle of the street with nothing. They were prepared to go to war but they turned around and ran away. So I say they went for war. Nothing else.

ADV GCABASHE: You see because my interpretation just in my own head of the turning around and running away is a natural reaction where there is no major upheaval as had been predicted in the country generally. I mean black people were collecting all kinds of things. Because everybody thought we will be under siege, there is going to be a problem. So it wasn't just anything the Boere or the AWB's were doing as a special group. Everybody had a fear that things would go wrong. But this is why again I say in my interpretation of the events therefore is that they were there thinking that things would go wrong, they gathered with their families and friends and the people they are related to and when things did not go wrong they then went home or went back to where they thought they could pick up the pieces again. So they were there to look after themselves, to protect themselves and the people they identified with. Not to come and offend against others.

MR VENTER: In a sense yes Ma'am. I can say that some of them went back to pick up the pieces. Others went back to nothing. They couldn't pick up pieces. So their motivation to get rid of those things to be on just you know protect the people around me and my family no ways. There were a more superior command or they had a different point of view to this because they would not go as far as leaving - I mean family splitted up, man and husband, divorce. Why would you go to this extreme measurements of just sitting at a place and waiting for might this happen or not? They went for it fully and it gone wrong. They had nowhere to go after that except walk back like dogs with their tails between their legs because there was nothing. And I won't I mean if I tell you we are going to war you sell your car and you motivated for this what is going to happen the next day if there is not war? To whom are you going to turn? That is the motivation I say these people had to go to war because they were prepared to do all these things and they turned around and they had nowhere to go. So the motivation behind this was for war, for empty promises that was made for us to believe in. And there was nothing at the end of the day.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter I just want to ask you one question. And this is with regards to the background of the evidence you have given earlier. How do you feel about those ideals which you no longer identify with. If I listen to your evidence in the last ten minutes are you not glad, happy that everything went wrong in the end? Do you not think that it could have been a slaughter and nothing would have come out of it anyway?

MR VENTER: Because of the leadership we had if it went further it would have been chaos. I think it would have been the greatest defeat the Afrikaner Boer could ever have experienced. We were motivated yes but it would have lead to disaster because we were told stories and we were motivated by things like for example the army is going to be there. The police is going to help us. There is going to be a "Volkstaat." And at the end of the day there was nothing. And all those people would have fought against us. So it would have been terrible. I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: But also you talk about the defeat of the Afrikaner Boer but also the destruction that you would have caused if it was planned better and it was executed better the whole concept. I am referring to the whole concept now. Are you not glad that the whole concept failed?

MR VENTER: I am glad about that.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Venter the video which we looked at I am not sure whether this is on record. When did Mr Terreblanche make that speech? The date have you got any idea?

MR VENTER: It was the beginning of the year of the elections, so January, February, March.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to force you. I don't want to put pressure on you to give us a date. It is no worries. Now with regards to you ending your membership there was evidence here about people who just did not continue paying their subscription fees or their membership fees. How did you end your membership with the AWB?

MR VENTER: I packed my bag, I turned around and I walked away. Afterwards I wrote in a written resignation.

ADV BOSMAN: But you actively resigned?

MR VENTER: Yes I have.

ADV BOSMAN: About the pipe bombs in Randfontein. What time of the morning did you plant them? I was wondering how it was so easy for you to get into the toilets.

MR VENTER: I think it was just before eight if I am not wrong. The taxi ranks is at the back of these toilets, behind the toilets and the people from the taxi rank had access to these toilets. It was public toilet.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell me how busy it was that morning?

MR VENTER: There were 4 taxis there at the taxi rank.

ADV BOSMAN: And people, how many people were in the vicinity?

MR VENTER: Chairperson from what I can conclude at that stage you do not really look around because your state of mind is a bit messed up. You are not functioning properly.

ADV BOSMAN: Let's put it in general terms. Eight 'o clock in the morning in Randfontein is it quite a busy time or not?

MR VENTER: It is quite busy.

ADV BOSMAN: Then on further question. Maybe it is not very relevant but I would like to know. Who guarded Terreblanche when all you "Ystergaard" members were at the game farm?

MR VENTER: There were people who were delegated or were tasked to guard him during that time.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it Ystergarde members?

MR VENTER: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know where he was when everybody was at the game farm?

MR VENTER: At his house and also on his farm in Ventersdorp.

ADV BOSMAN: At the head office?

MR VENTER: I cannot tell you whether he was at the head office.

ADV BOSMAN: But I mean that Ventersdorp is the head office?

MR VENTER: That is correct yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And now I am just very curious. Where does a Western Transvaler learn to speak English the way you do? I was just wondering.

MR VENTER: Now we are getting to the purity of race. I grew up in an English home. I went to school in Nelspruit.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you an English speaking Boer?

MR VENTER: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter how long were you a member of the AWB?

MR VENTER: I finished there in 1996 after I got out of prison. '85,'86 I joined them, so around about ten years.

CHAIRPERSON: And in all that time there was only one leader which is Mr Terreblanche?

MR VENTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand that he has been the leader for 21 years already?

MR VENTER: 21 years I think that was in the early nineties. That was the birthday. I think then he was leader for 21 years. I think now it is about 28 years that he has been the leader.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand your evidence he is a man you do not ask questions, you cannot ask him questions he'll shoot you or kick you or do whatever he wants. It is a strange question which I am going to ask. Was there democracy within the AWB? Was there an attempt made to get another leader?

MR VENTER: I know for a fact that because of medical which Mr Terreblanche is suffering from diseases or whatever at one stage there was a sub- or vice-leader chosen who would take over if Terreblanche died or if something happened to him. I do not know why they decided before that to get a new leader but I know a vice-leader was chosen.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that he would have been a leader of the Volkstaat as well.

MR VENTER: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that during these incidents in general the black people were the target at that it worked out that way?

MR VENTER: I wouldn't say the black people. I would say our enemy the ANC. If you look at the time in which we acted we were told that the ANC/SACP alliance was our enemy and the political struggle which was in progress at that time we were told that an ANC/SACP was our enemy. I wouldn't say all the black people or all the races outside of the white race. I would say ANC/SACP.

CHAIRPERSON: It is also said that this Volkstaat black people would be able to live there but they would not have a vote to right?

MR VENTER: That is how I accepted it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you have left the AWB what is your attitude towards black people?

MR VENTER: I am now in the position where I have got the approval of the ANC, their youth league and some of their other institutions in the area where I work. A good friend of mine a mayor of Phalaborwa, Joe Matabula. I am building wooden houses.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am not talking about your job or anything.

MR VENTER: But this is now what I am saying. The circumstances I do not know what the word is but my interaction with these people on a daily basis changed completely. I never thought that I would go to the ANC and ask for help in building houses. So my motivation changed completely.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you now live with black people?

MR VENTER: Yes I do get along with them. I have got no problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Things now changed since 1990, life changed a few peoples' lives improved and life continues. Can you live in the New South Africa?

MR VENTER: Well I am here to ask you if I can live in the New South Africa because the sentence I have got I find it difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us put it this way. We grant you amnesty will you be satisfied in the New South Africa?

MR VENTER: Yes I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't you got plans or looking forward to living in a Volkstaat now that you get to know these people?

MR VENTER: No like I have said to you I have rejected all these principles.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by building wooden houses?

MR VENTER: That is the business I am in. I am in timber frame houses. I physically build wooden houses. And they were also fabricated for the RDP project.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you are involved in this project the money that you make out of this job is that not the reason why you are willing to change or is it from your heart? If you will now make money out of it or not.

MR VENTER: I haven't made money out of it yet. We are still working on that to get the money in to say that we are making money. No the motivational point is not now that I will become rich out of the RDP. They gave me a possibility to begin a business. They created a possibility to do something for myself. I could not have done that if they did not make it possible. So it is not about the money.

CHAIRPERSON: Your feeling?

MR VENTER: It is about the feeling. It is about I have got a work and I live compared to what I had when I left jail.

CHAIRPERSON: And the change towards people is that from your heart or is it connected to what you can make out of this?

MR VENTER: It comes from my heart otherwise I wouldn't have told these people how I felt under these circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused. Let's take a 15 minute adjournment.

WITNESS EXCUSED: .

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .