ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: We will now proceed to hear the amnesty application of Jones Juda Mdluli, Amnesty Reference AM4100/96.
The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record. Yes, Mr Ngubane, do you want to put yourself on record for the applicant?
MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is E M Ngubane, I appear on behalf of the applicant, Mr Mdluli.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. And then the leader of evidence?
MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the leader of evidence as before. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Yes Mr Ngubane?
MR NGUBANE: Thank you Sir. May I call the applicant Mr Mdluli?
JONES JUDA MDLULI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Mdluli, is it correct that you were born in 1960 at a place known as Inanda?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: And are you currently serving a sentence in prison as a result of a conviction?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: And were you convicted of murder, attempted murder, robbery and you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment, correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: And how many years did you receive as a result of that conviction and sentence?
MR MDLULI: 18 years imprisonment.
MR NGUBANE: I see and do you recall when that was?
MR MDLULI: In 1992.
MR NGUBANE: Prior to your conviction and sentence is it correct you were residing in the KwaMashu township?
MR MDLULI: My house is in Inanda in a town Section A.
MR NGUBANE: So you were residing in Inanda, the new town?
MR MDLULI: Yes that is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Backs to KwaMashu township?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: And now were you a member of any political party?
MR MDLULI: I was an ANC supporter.
MR NGUBANE: I see. You were not a paid up member or you were not a member at all of the ANC, you were merely a supporter, is that correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: And you were also employed as a member of the KwaZulu Police, is that correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: What rank did you have?
MR MDLULI: I was a lance sergeant.
MR NGUBANE: And for how long had you been a member of the police force before your conviction?
MR MDLULI: I had been employed for about nine years.
MR NGUBANE: Alright. Now you committed these various offences for which you were convicted. Can you tell the Members of the Committee what motivated you to commit these offences?
MR MDLULI: I was stationed at KwaMashu. There were two conflicting organisations at KwaMashu, that is the ANC dominated in the township and outside KwaMashu there was Lindelani which was dominated by the IFP. Those IFP members collaborated with the KwaZulu Police when they attacked the ANC members in the township particularly in Section K and in Induzu.
MR NGUBANE: May I just interrupt you a little bit? If you speak can you take it step by step because there are people interpreting so that they can catch up with you? Right, carry on from where you ended?
MR MDLULI: This killing of ANC by IFP members and sympathisers and the police affected my family, friends and neighbours. This affected me very deeply and I felt that I had a responsibility to do something to assist. There were defence units that existed in the areas to protect the communities. I knew those units and they were responsible for protecting the community, my friends, my family and the people of the section as well as M Section as well as the rest of the KwaMashu township.
I saw it fit to render assistance and the first thing that I did was to give them ammunition. After a while we acquired firearms which we used to assist them with although these were later confiscated by the police when we were arrested.
MR NGUBANE: When you say you were arrested and neighbours were affected, did you have any specific relatives that were killed by Inkatha?
MR MDLULI: No.
MR NGUBANE: Now how were your relatives effected there?
MR MDLULI: They were effected because the section of M would be attacked and that is where I had relatives. My children would also be effected there as well as my neighbours. They knew me and I had rendered some assistance to protect that family that housed my children.
MR NGUBANE: This background you are giving it as a motivation for you committing these crimes you are serving in respect of which you are serving a sentence, is that correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: I take it you planned to commit this robbery at Ntwetwe, is that correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: What did you hope to achieve by actually committing this robbery?
MR MDLULI: We wanted to acquire firearms so that we would be able to assist different units who were protecting the township. I have already mentioned that is KwaMashu and Ntuso.
MR NGUBANE: During your planning did you at any stage plan to commit murder or attempted murder?
MR MDLULI: No, that was not planned.
MR NGUBANE: Right, I take it that you proceeded from wherever you were on the day of the robbery to Ntwetwe area, correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Were you driving any motor vehicles?
MR MDLULI: We were in two vehicles, a BMW and a Toyota Corolla.
MR NGUBANE: Who were driving these motor vehicles?
MR MDLULI: The BMW was driven by Dunsani Dlamini and the Toyota Corolla was driven by myself on the way to and on the return journey it was driven by James Lucky Hlengwa.
MR NGUBANE: And the people you have mentioned are the people that were convicted and sentenced together with you by the high court, they were accused number 3 and number 5 in that case?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Right, were you armed in any manner?
MR MDLULI: Yes we were armed.
MR NGUBANE: You personally, how were you armed?
MR MDLULI: I had my service pistol, a 7.65 as well as a 9 mm pistol which belonged to Constable Kamboli.
MR NGUBANE: Alright and did you know where you - well sorry, can I just rephrase it? Did you discuss ...(intervention)
ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Ngubane, let's get a clear picture who was armed with what before you go on?
MR NGUBANE: Thank you. You have described how you were armed and were the other people also armed? People in your company?
MR MDLULI: I had my own firearm as well as Sangoni's firearm. When we arrived at the scene I handed my firearm to Bheki who was a member of the defence unit.
MR NGUBANE: Bheki who?
MR MDLULI: Bheki Dlamini.
MR NGUBANE: He was not one of the co-accused when you appeared before the high court?
MR MDLULI: Yes he was not one of the accused.
MR NGUBANE: And how were the other members armed, members of your group?
MR MDLULI: James Lucky Hlengwa had his 9 mm and Ukunuleko was also a member of the self defence unit, he had a 9 mm in his possession, that was his firearm.
MR NGUBANE: Was there anyone in your group who had a firearm known as HMC?
MR MDLULI: Of the people who were at the scene, no one carried a big firearm. I do not recall correctly which firearm Dumsani Dlamini had although he was not at the scene of the crime.
MR NGUBANE: But when he did the planning and after the robbery did anyone of you possess a firearm known as the HMC?
MR MDLULI: On our way back we left three firearms at KwaMashu K section, there were two HMC's and one shotgun. Dumsani Dlamini took one HMC to Hammersdale, that would have been used to assist defence units there because there were similar problems prevailing there.
MR NGUBANE: Okay, let's go back to the stage now when you were travelling and before you could do that, before you could commit robbery did you target any particular area where you were going to commit robbery?
MR MDLULI: What happened was that Dumsani Dlamini came to us and informed us that the opportunity to acquire firearms to assist defence units has presented itself. He then told us that there was a certain gentleman by the surname of Luthuli, a Constable Luthuli who was stationed at Ntetwe. This person had come up with a suggestion of robbing a vehicle that would be paying out some monies. Mr Luthuli was a member of Inkatha but at the time he was our friend.
MR NGUBANE: Right?
MR MDLULI: We then agreed that what we are after is the firearms but we were not going to inform Luthuli about that because he was a member of the opposing organisation and he was stationed at Ntwetwe, he worked with the police there.
MR NGUBANE: So Luthuli suggested to you that you should commit robbery and rob people of money, is that what he told you?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: Did he tell you anything about the firearms?
MR MDLULI: He informed us of the type of firearms that those people carry and exactly how many there are that escort the PL team.
MR NGUBANE: Did he tell you where these firearms are kept?
MR MDLULI: As far as we knew the police would have the firearms in their possession.
MR NGUBANE: Okay, then you went to the spot where this robbery was to take place, correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct, we did go there.
MR NGUBANE: Where was that?
MR MDLULI: It's at Tapuka's Store.
MR NGUBANE: And you arrived there and what did you do?
MR MDLULI: When we arrived there it was myself, Lucky Hlengwa, Bheki and Gunuleko. There were four policemen, one was seated in the vehicle and three were outside the shop. We then instructed them to drop their weapons. The one that was directly in front of me, I had pressed my firearm against him on his back. He tried to turn, carrying an HMC, to fight back. At that precise moment I heard gunfire which I did not know where it came from. I then shot at that policeman and then took cover behind a van that was parked on the scene.
MR NGUBANE: The policeman that you shot whereabouts did you shoot him?
MR MDLULI: On the head.
MR NGUBANE: Do you know who that policeman is?
MR MDLULI: No I do not have knowledge with regards to his identity.
MR NGUBANE: Do you know what happened of him or he was merely injured or he died?
MR MDLULI: He died on the scene.
MR NGUBANE: But surely in the High Court you must have been told that you had committed murder in respect of a certain person whose name was mentioned, is it not correct?
MR MDLULI: I do not remember it being mentioned.
MR NGUBANE: Okay, when you say you shot him on his head did you shoot him on his forehead? Did you shoot him on his forehead or the back of his head or the side of his head?
MR MDLULI: If I remember correctly it was on the side towards the back.
MR NGUBANE: How many times did you shoot him?
MR MDLULI: Once.
MR NGUBANE: Okay, besides that shot that you fired, did you fire any further shots, you personally?
MR MDLULI: Yes, after that I took cover behind a van. There was then a shoot out that took place between us and the police for quite a while. At the end two of them fled and one other died on the scene. In total there were two policemen who died on the scene and two fled.
MR NGUBANE: And were those the two people who were killed at the scene?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: What did you remove from the scene?
MR MDLULI: We removed all firearms on the scene and we saw a trunk that was in the van. As far as we knew any truck that is in the possession of the police was used for the storing of firearms and ammunition. We then assumed that there might be firearms or ammunition inside the trunk so we took the trunk as well.
MR NGUBANE: Who actually took the trunk?
MR MDLULI: It was Gululeko.
MR NGUBANE: And then what did you do with all the things that you removed at the scene of the robbery?
MR MDLULI: We took those firearms and the trunk with to K Section and when we opened the trunk there was nothing except for a slab of zinc. We then left three firearms with Gululeko at K Section as well as Bheki. Those two were members of the self defence unit. One firearm was taken by Dumsani Ernest Dlamini to Hammersdale. As I've already mentioned, there was also fighting going on there.
ADV SANDI: You say you left the firearms with who?
MR MDLULI: With Gululeko and Bheki.
MR NGUBANE: Thank you. When you decided to commit this robbery were you under command of anyone or any political organisation or local defence unit structure?
MR MDLULI: No one had given us the authority to go fetch those firearms but we were forced by the situation that prevailed, that is we felt we had to render assistance to ANC structures who were unarmed, defenceless and were suffering attacks from armed people such as Inkatha and KwaZulu Police.
MR NGUBANE: So you are asking that you be granted amnesty in respect of all the offences that have been convicted of and in respect of which you are serving sentence is that correct?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR NGUBANE: According to the charge sheet you were charged, that is the indictment, I think it's page 12 to 13, towards the end of page 12, you were charged with murder in that you killed one Samwe Sipho Hlongwane and murder again, that you killed one Ngongo Jerome Kuzwayo and attempted murder and robbery of various people. The point I'm making to you is that there are definitely families of these people present here and who may not be present but who are aware of your conviction of your sentence. Do you have any message for them?
MR MDLULI: Yes. When the incident occurred it was during a time of war. During that time, the '87, '88, '89, '90, 1991, everyone knows that there was a war going on in all the townships, that is between the ANC and the IFP. What we did then, that is to fetch those firearms, even though it added up resulting in the death of their loved ones, that was not our intention. We wanted to help families who died day in, day out being killed by people who were armed and trained as well as the IFP which was armed as well. Therefore I will say to those relatives please understand the situation that prevailed at the time. We are now faced with a different situation where we reconciled with regards to past conflict. I will then ask that maybe what took place, before then, before the present government, led us where we are today so I would ask them to please forgive and forget the past and let us look towards the future. Thank you.
MR NGUBANE: Thank you, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Mapoma, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.
Mr Mdluli, you were a member of the KwaZulu Police?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: And in fact in KwaZulu during that time you will agree with me KwaZulu Government was led by the Inkatha Freedom Party, isn't it so?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: And the KwaZulu Police themselves had allegiance to the Inkatha Freedom Party, generally?
MR MDLULI: Generally the KwaZulu Police were aligned to the IFP but it was not everyone but yes, most of them did support the IFP.
MR MAPOMA: And in fact your friend who was an Inkatha member, what's his name now?
MR MDLULI: Constable Luthuli.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, he was an Inkatha member and worked closely with Inkatha and the police, KwaZulu Police?
MR MDLULI: We knew him to be a member or a supporter of the IFP but we had never seen him committing acts on behalf of Inkatha or for instance killing, murdering people on behalf of Inkatha.
MR MAPOMA: I see. Now you yourself, were you not a supporter of Inkatha?
MR MDLULI: Throughout my service at the police station or even before I've never been a supporter of the IFP.
MR MAPOMA: Before you became a policeman were you supporting any political organisation?
MR MDLULI: Yes I supported the ANC.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, so when did you join the police?
MR MDLULI: In 1981 I joined the South African Police then and in 1984 I wanted to work in the department of the finger printing unit. I then made a request to be moved there but because of discrimination then I was not accepted. I then heard of the KwaZulu Police where I met somebody who was in charge of the finger printing department. That person then requested me to go work in his section. I was then made to fill in a pro-forma form which released me into the KwaZulu Police.
MR MAPOMA: And in 1981 the ANC was a banned organisation and in fact it was known by the police force then as an organisation of the terrorists, you are aware of that, aren't you?
MR MDLULI: Yes I'm aware of it.
MR MAPOMA: Yet that was the organisation you were supporting when you went to join the police, that's what you want to tell this Committee now?
MR MDLULI: I will explain that. When I joined the police it was after my schooling at Gugulabasha. That school is in Dusoma, very close to KwaMashu. I and other pupils from that school and neighbouring school we supported the UDF at the time which I think was a branch of the ANC. When I joined the police in 1991 you made to take an oath and you were informed that if you are a police officer you should be apolitical so that you are able to protect the community fairly. That is what was on my mind when I went to college and when I returned from the college that was also on my mind. When I was with the KwaZulu Police in 1984 I arrived there in April. I was told then that when you joined the KwaZulu Police you should become a member of the IFP and also that the police force is under the command of Mangosutho Buthelezi who was the Minister of Police and an IFP Chairperson there. I then attempted to make an application to return to the SAP because that was against my policies. That application was turned down in Ulundi. I went to the police commissioner at C R Swart to explain my problems. He said he would accept me provided Ulundi gives me permission to do so. When I returned to Ulundi they refused, they said I cannot go back to the South African Police. I then decided that I shall continue working then and then I had an idea that my colleagues were members of an organisation that I opposed therefore I felt it was time for me to do whatever I could to support that organisation which I supported and that which was supported by my family and my friends and neighbours. Therefore I continued being an ANC supporter although I was working in an environment which was dominated by the IFP.
MR MAPOMA: So you're saying you started being a KwaZulu Police in 1984?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: Okay, it is in 1984 when you were told that if you are KwaZulu Police you're supposed to support Inkatha?
MR MDLULI: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: Okay. Now on this day when you planned this robbery what were you intending to rob actually?
MR MDLULI: We wanted to acquire firearms for the reason I stated previously that is to assist defence units who protected our families, our friends in the township who were under attack from the IFP from Lindelani and Richmond Farm and they would do this with the assistance and collusion of the KwaZulu Police, such police whom I knew. Sometimes things would happen even in front of me.
MR MAPOMA: During your service as a policeman, nine years service, I suppose you knew where the storeroom with the service firearms was, is it not so?
MR MDLULI: That is correct, I did know.
MR MAPOMA: And it has never been your plan to rob the firearms from the storeroom of the police service weapons, is that so?
MR MDLULI: After nine years of service in the police I had knowledge of how well guarded those firearms were.
MR MAPOMA: No, no, Mr Mdluli, just answer my question. My question is very clear and it just needs a very simple answer. I am asking you when you were planning to rob firearms, it never came to your plans that you had to go and rob from the storeroom. I just want yes or no.
MR MDLULI: No.
MR MAPOMA: Okay. And what was happening at that shop where you went to rob? What was actually happening there?
MR MDLULI: It was a pension payout point.
MR MAPOMA: And you were aware that was what was going on there?
MR MDLULI: Yes I knew very well.
MR MAPOMA: And you were aware that the van which keeps money is escorted by police?
MR MDLULI: Yes I knew that.
MR MAPOMA: I see and you were aware when you took the trunk that that is the trunk which is supposed to be carrying money?
MR MDLULI: No, we knew that the money was kept in briefcases. In all police stations trunks are used to store firearms or ammunition.
MR MAPOMA: I see. You know of no trunk which was used to carry money?
MR MDLULI: No trunk is used to store money.
MR MAPOMA: I see. I see. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV SANDI: Yes. Tell me, the people responsible for paying out pension monies, where were they when they came back?
MR MDLULI: When we arrived those people were inside the shop where we didn't even go.
ADV SANDI: How did it go about before this incident, how exactly did you go about supporting the ANC as you've said you were a supporter of the ANC?
MR MDLULI: I explained before that I supported the ANC since my childhood until I joined the police service. When I was in the KwaZulu Police I became firm in my support in the ANC to render assistance to my community, my family and friends who were under attack and being killed by the IFP and KwaZulu Police.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: Tell me did you deliberate with anybody in the ANC about this robbery?
MR MDLULI: Yes Ugunulego was an ANC person who worked with the different units and they protected the community of peace action and Bheki who arrived later also was part of the discussions.
ADV BOSMAN: Did you know the ANC chairman of the branch of the ANC in that area?
MR MDLULI: No I did not know the chairman, the people I had contact with were in the lower structures of the ANC, that is the foot soldiers who protected the township.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Chair. By launching this attack at this particular place where you did were you not putting the lives of pensioners in danger?
MR MDLULI: Our plan was to direct ourselves at the police who were as well trained as we were. We knew that if you point a firearm at a trained police officer it is difficult for that person to fight back. Nonetheless we were surprised to encounter police officers who were prepared to fight back and we were then forced to shoot.
ADV SANDI: That police officer you shot on the head, why did you shoot him on the head?
MR MDLULI: I shot him at the side of his head that is above the ear if I'm not mistaken.
ADV SANDI: Why did you do that, was it your intention to kill him?
MR MDLULI: The intention was not to kill him but what caused all that was that when I pointed my firearm at him and instructed him to put down his weapon he fought back, he tried to turn around and he had a HFC in his possession. Also I heard a gun going off and I was not sure who was firing so to be safe I felt that I should at that person who was directly in front of me because he was also fighting.
ADV SANDI: If you had found money in that truck would you have taken it?
MR MDLULI: Unfortunately when we did attempt to open the trunk on the scene but it was locked so it could not open.
We then assumed that there must be firearms or ammunition in the trunk. We only managed to open it at K Section and we only found a zinc slab inside. Our intention was to remove firearms not money. If we had an intention of robbing cash we would not have gone to the last pay point. Secondly, we knew very well that the people who were paying out the pensions were inside the shop and after we had shot and everybody had been killed it would not have been difficult to go inside the shop and remove that cash but we only removed the firearms and we left the scene.
ADV SANDI: But that does not answer the question. What would have been your attitude if you found money in the trunk? I know you didn't find any money in the trunk, what would you have done with the money if you found it?
MR MDLULI: If we could have opened it on the scene and discovered money inside we would have left it there because that was not our intention. Our objective was to acquire those firearms to assist our community.
ADV SANDI: These people you have mentioned, Gululeko and Bheki, where are they now?
MR MDLULI: The police could not trace Gululeko. We heard that he had skipped the country. I do not know about Bheki because he has never been arrested ever since.
ADV SANDI: You've not heard anything of Bheki, you've made no contact with the two whatsoever?
MR MDLULI: We never had contact but we would contact his younger brother. On our last contact he informed us that Gululeko has not returned up to this date.
ADV SANDI: How long after this incident were you arrested?
MR MDLULI: After a week, on the 29th March.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
MR NGUBANE: I've no re-examination thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mdluli, you're excused.
MR NGUBANE: That closes the case for the applicant.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, any submissions?
MR NGUBANE IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My only submission is that the evidence by the applicant is enough either to advance or negate his case. I cannot improvise on what he has said. That is all I wish to submit.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, have you got any submissions?
MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, my short route will be that as it is from the evidence it is quite inconceivable that the KwaZulu Police could have been supporters of the ANC during that time. In fact the applicant has not tendered a
convincing or satisfactory explanation as to how this irony occurred that he could be a member of KwaZulu Police and yet be a supporter of the ANC at that time and it is quite strange indeed as well for them to turn to rob weapons at a pay point and in fact rob a container which is supposed to be a container of money yet all the time the intention is to rob weapons and unfortunately some people died there and it is my submission that there has not been any explanation which makes the killing of those persons a politically motivated act.
Without dwelling much, Chairperson, I would say the application ought to be refused.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Is there anything else that you wanted to add Mr Ngubane?
MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the Panel will take time to consider this matter and will formulate a decision as soon as the circumstances permit for that to be done whereupon the decision will be made available to the parties with an interest in this matter. Under the circumstances the decision of the Panel is reserved.
Mr Ngubane, we thank you for your assistance in this matter.
MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, we've got one more matter left on the roll. What is the arrangement with Mr Panday in regard to that?
MR MAPOMA: He is present, Chairperson and also Mr Maseko is present. The applicant and the victims, they're all here.
CHAIRPERSON: They're present?
MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Perhaps we should take a short luncheon adjournment and try and start with this matter as soon as circumstances permit. We will take the luncheon adjournment at this stage but we will only adjourn for thirty minutes whereafter we will deal with the matter of Mkhize. So we will reconvene here in 30 minutes time. We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
