Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr Sifiso Malevu.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear the name?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Sifiso Malevu.

CHAIRPERSON: I can hear you now. What did you say the name was?

MS MOHAMED: Sifiso Malevu.

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, Mr Nel would like to know whether he could be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: I am in your hands until when? Mr Nel, do you want to leave Durban?

MS THABETHE: No, no.

MR NEL: (Indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can we reassess the situation at about quarter past eleven? Is that convenient for you? Okay. Yes, Malevu, what language would you like to use?

MR MALEVU: Zulu.

SIFISO MALEVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Malevu, isn't it correct that you are presently serving a term of imprisonment at Westville prison?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I am.

MS MOHAMED: What were you convicted of?

MR MALEVU: I was sentenced for armed robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: You were present when Mr Mpanza testified?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you convicted for the same offences?

MR MALEVU: Yes, we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you. What term of imprisonment did you receive?

MR MALEVU: Eight years imprisonment.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Malevu, did you make an application for amnesty?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I did.

MS MOHAMED: When was that?

MR MALEVU: In 1997, around May.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you see, tell us, did you make it on a separate form and did you sign that form, or what is the position?

MR MALEVU: I used a separate form, which I signed.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you tell your Attorney then about that?

MR MALEVU: Please explain which Attorney you are referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: The one that is presently representing you.

MR MALEVU: I did explain it to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what did you tell her? That you made the application on a separate form, or that you associated yourself with the application of Mpanza and you thought that his application was sufficient to cover you as well?

MR MALEVU: I filled in my own form.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, we have two versions here, as to how we are not in possession of a completed form as required by the Act. Are you telling us that in fact the correct version is one, that you in fact completed your own form?

MR MALEVU: What happened was, I filled my own separate form.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what did you do with it?

MR MALEVU: I submitted it to Capt Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did the story about you associating yourself with one application form, come from then?

MR MALEVU: I do not have knowledge of where that came from.

CHAIRPERSON: But you heard yesterday how we were arguing about it, did you not approach your Attorney and tell your Attorney exactly what the position was? You were sitting here in the hearing, she made an application at the beginning of this hearing, asking for condonation for you and Shandu to be joined as applicants, despite there being no formal application form, an application before us, and she explained one time, that you believed, you were one of the people who believed that Mpanza's application was in fact an application on behalf of all of you? Admittedly there was a second version, that seems to suggest what you are testifying now, but that gives us problems.

We would like you to tell us how this came about.

MR MALEVU: With regards to our applications, sometime last year, I think in July, Mr Cele and Mrs Mkhize arrived at prison to inform me that Mr Mpanza had made an application for amnesty and they enquired if we were also applicants in the matter, or we were just implicated persons.

At that point, I impressed on them that we were applicants, because from what I knew, we were all applicants in that matter. I was not aware that I was implicated, just implicated in the matter. They then explained to me that they could not locate our forms. They said I was then required to make a statement, so that the matter could be processed.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, all I am asking you is where this other story about a globular application arose from. Isn't that what you told your Attorney?

MR MALEVU: I think that that must have come from the people who took the statement from me, because I am not aware of it.

MR LAX: Mr Malevu, have you read the statement of yours, that appears at page 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 which was signed by you on the 7th of July 1999? If you look at page 10, is that your signature there? Page 10? Is that your signature?

MR MALEVU: Yes, it is.

MR LAX: Right. Just bear with me for one second.

CHAIRPERSON: Page?

MR LAX: Page 10 he signed. Have you read that statement?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I read it.

MR LAX: And is that what you told Mr Cele? You told him the story and he wrote down the statement for you? Is that right?

MR MALEVU: I would like to explain that Mr Cele was writing the statement in English, but I was conversing with him in Zulu.

MR LAX: He is a Zulu speaker, isn't he?

MR MALEVU: Yes.

MR LAX: So you didn't have any trouble understanding each other?

MR MALEVU: We did not have a problem communicating.

MR LAX: Precisely. So you related the story and he put it down in English?

MR MALEVU: That is correct. He would write it in English and I would be telling him the story in Zulu.

MR LAX: When he finished writing the story, he asked you to sign it?

MR MALEVU: After completing writing, he asked me to sign it. He also asked me if he should read it back to me before I sign it, but I opted not for him to do so, for several reasons.

MR LAX: Why?

MR MALEVU: I will just explain that. The circumstances under which we live in prison can sometimes make you not to think clearly. For example, at the time at which Mr Cele was supposed to read the statement back to me, I was supposed to go and get my meal. In that way, I entrusted the statement with Mr Cele, for the reason that had I missed my meal at that time, I would not have had anything to eat for that day.

The reason why I did not ask Mr Cele to read the statement back to me, was that I trusted him. For example whatever you are noting down now, I believe that it is correct.

MR LAX: Yes, well, even if you didn't believe it is correct, it is being recorded on the machine and we can always play you back the tapes, but that is irrelevant. What is important here is has he recorded accurately, apart from this business about your application form, has he reported everything else accurately?

CHAIRPERSON: As you told him?

MR LAX: Just a yes or no is good enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this, have you been able to read that document, that statement?

MR MALEVU: No. Are you referring to today?

CHAIRPERSON: No, any time after it was ...

MR LAX: Mr Malevu, I asked you earlier, had you read this document and you said yes, you understand what is in this document, you have read it?

MR MALEVU: I did read it, but at the time I did not specify when I read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you satisfied when you did eventually read it, that it was properly recorded as you told Mr Cele?

MR MALEVU: After we received the statements from the Attorney, I complained to her about the portion which pertained to the application. That is why the matter was taken to the High Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the first time that you read this document?

MR MALEVU: Yes, it was for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR MALEVU: It was in March, before we went to the High Court in Pinetown?

CHAIRPERSON: In March?

MR MALEVU: Yes.

MR LAX: My question to you was, apart from that last portion, everything else in this statement is accurately recorded, is that not correct?

MR MALEVU: I believe so, yes.

MR LAX: Now, why would Mr Cele go and write some other total nonsense there that you say is not true? He was writing it all in one go? As you were talking, he was writing, isn't that so?

MR MALEVU: That is so. I do not know.

MR LAX: And when you had finished talking, he finished writing? Correct?

MR MALEVU: Please repeat that?

MR LAX: When you finished talking, he finished writing, isn't that so?

MR MALEVU: That is correct.

MR LAX: And then he asked whether he should read it back to you and you said no?

MR MALEVU: I said "no, I trust you, I can just sign the statement." Since the time they arrived, we had not experienced any problems, so I had no reason to distrust him.

MR LAX: Yes. You see, he will say he wrote exactly what you told him?

MR MALEVU: I understand that.

MR LAX: Can you tell us any reason why he should make up a lie about what you told him?

MR MALEVU: I am not in a position to explain.

MR LAX: He had come there to help you, to take a statement that would help you, isn't that so?

MR MALEVU: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you understood that?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I did.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, if I may, this is a convenient spot for me to bring this up, but my instructions at all stages from the applicants were that they filled in separate application forms, and this version about the globular application, came from the affidavits themselves. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, I would like to ask you something. Mr Mpanza makes an affidavit to which he attaches the application of the High Court?

MS MOHAMED: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday he told us that he doesn't know about the applications of Malevu and Shandu, he wasn't present when they whatever, if they did sign any documents, he wasn't present. That cut out the idea of a globular application?

MS MOHAMED: yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But yet he says in his affidavit to the High Court that he is able to confirm their versions, how is that possible?

MS MOHAMED: On instructions received, Mr Chairman, it seems that they had discussions about the application, after the applications were made.

CHAIRPERSON: No. These affidavits to the High Court specifically states that that paragraph in the original statement is incorrect and what in fact happened is that this witness and Shandu completed separate amnesty application forms, in terms of the Act, but yet, Mpanza says that he didn't know anything about it, he wasn't present when that occurred. How is he then able to confirm that they completed separate application forms?

MS MOHAMED: The instructions that I received is that he didn't physically see them filling the forms in, but he ...

CHAIRPERSON: But then how is he able to confirm it?

MS MOHAMED: He says that he is aware that they said that to him, and on that basis he confirmed it.

MR LAX: As a lawyer, you know that that, if you are confirming something, you are confirming what you know? What you saw, that is the purpose of giving evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: He says

"... the facts contained herein falls within my personal knowledge and are true and correct. I confirm that I have read the first and second applicants' affidavits and confirm the correctness thereof in so far as they relate to me."

How is he able to do that?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, in the first and second applicants' affidavits, they had said that they dealt with this bit about the globular application, and Mr Mpanza merely confirmed the fact that he didn't make the application on behalf of the other two.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Malevu, which incident did you apply for amnesty for?

MR MALEVU: About the incident of the robbery that took place in Empangeni at Avocas Wholesalers.

MS MOHAMED: Now, you have earlier said that you have heard the evidence of Mr Mpanza, can you tell us how it is that you became involved in this incident?

MR MALEVU: I was contacted by Mr Mpanza about the situation that he found himself in at the time.

MS MOHAMED: What situation was this?

MR MALEVU: Firstly, the situation at Mkababa, about the violence that was going on there. That was the first incident.

The second incident regarded Empangeni. That is the harassment and attack of comrades in Empangeni.

MS MOHAMED: Why did ...

MR LAX: Just before you go on. You say he contacted you and he told you about these two things?

MR MALEVU: That is correct.

MR LAX: At the same time, on the same occasion?

MR MALEVU: On different occasions.

MR LAX: What did he want from you?

MR MALEVU: Mr Mpanza required my assistance in helping him attend to these problems.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you, what did he need your assistance for?

MR MALEVU: The most important issue was the question of acquiring firearms to assist the people who needed them, the people who were being attacked by the IFP at Mkababa, that was the first instance. That is the sort of assistance he required from me.

He wanted to know what idea could I come up with to help attend to this matter.

MR LAX: What did you do about it?

MR MALEVU: We discussed the matter on several occasions, trying to identify places where, from which we could obtain firearms, places such as police stations. We would go and do some reconnaissance at those places. The people that we could meet and make progress with, were the people who sold firearms, however we did not have money to purchase them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and rob them?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and rob them of their arms, why didn't you break into a shop where they sold arms and ammunition? That would have solved your problem immediately?

MR MALEVU: We felt that was unsafe. We did consider it.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet it was safe to go and rob a wholesalers in broad daylight, early in the morning, eight o'clock?

MR MALEVU: Yes, it was, although it was not a hundred percent safe, however, we felt it was safer than the places we have referred to.

MR LAX: What else did you do?

MR MALEVU: Whilst we were still busy trying to solve the issue of the people of Mkababa, I think after three or four weeks, a report was brought by somebody from Empangeni. I was not aware who that person was who brought the report to comrade Ziba.

That person explained their situation in eSikhaweni, that things were not going well.

MR LAX: You misunderstood my question, I want to know what other steps you took to obtain firearms? You have spoken about discussing robbing firearm shops, you have spoken about discussing police stations, you have discussed the issue of maybe buying firearms, but having no money, what other steps did you take, or is that everything?

MR MALEVU: We abandoned the idea of robbing gun shops and police stations. We felt that was unsafe, so we abandoned that idea. A more suitable idea that crossed our minds was ...

MR LAX: You didn't take any other steps?

MR MALEVU: We did not take any other steps about robbing police stations and gun shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other steps about acquiring firearms, that is the question?

MR MALEVU: Yes, there were some.

MR LAX: I have asked you about five times now to tell us what other steps you took, and you haven't told us.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct there were not other steps that you discussed?

MR MALEVU: The steps that we took, or the step that we took, was to go rob money so that we could buy those firearms.

MR LAX: Why didn't you take the most obvious step, the one that Mpanza says you took, which was to find, obtain the assistance of other comrades, find out about their DLBs, check what weapons they might have? He says you did that? You didn't do it?

MR MALEVU: We did do that.

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell us that you did it, before I put this question to you in this way? I gave you enough chance to tell us what other steps you took?

MR MALEVU: I thought you were asking about what we intended doing that was close to what I had explained before, that was robbing of gun shops and police stations.

MR LAX: Carry on, your record will speak for itself.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.

MR MALEVU: Although I am not absolutely certain of Mr Mpanza's movements of where he went, because we were not always together, however, there were people that I approached and asked, although I knew that it would not be easy to obtain firearms that would be taken to another place on a permanent basis.

Whoever had a firearm at the time, did not want to part with it, because the situation was not okay, so that if you borrowed a firearm from somebody, you would have to return it after use. It would have been difficult to obtain firearms from other people to take them to Mkababa permanently, because there were problems around the area that we were in, itself, and the firearms were not many.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Malevu, when you were having all these difficulties about obtaining firearms, what did you eventually decide to do to obtain your firearms?

MR MALEVU: I would explain that whilst we were still faced with the problem of acquiring firearms for the Mkababa area. I think after about three or four weeks a request came from Empangeni. Mr Mpanza then sent me to Empangeni to attend to that request.

It concerned the killing of ANC comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: And?

MR MALEVU: Mr Mpanza then organised that I should go to Empangeni to meet a certain gentleman. I think his name was Mayibuya. We contacted him by telephone prior to my departure for Ngoya, I did not know this person, but he was known to comrade Mpanza.

We introduced ourselves over the phone and he explained what car he was driving, so I left after arranging a date over the telephone. I left for Empangeni, where I met comrade Mayibuya.

Comrade Mayibuya took me to ESIkhaweni township. We remained there for a short while.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Malevu, what was the purpose of your going to Empangeni and meet Mr Mayibuya?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malevu, you heard Mr Mpanza testify about what happened and how this thing was planned, correct?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I did hear him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm what he says as far as it affects you?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you want to change or alter about what he said about you or do you agree with what he said?

MR MALEVU: From what I heard, I agree with what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Is there any more questions, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chair, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Malevu, was the situation in Mkababa urgent to get firearms?

MR MALEVU: It was urgent.

MR PANDAY: Why did you not consider robbing a bank to get these firearms, to get the cash?

MR MALEVU: Normally banks are situated in public areas where most people could be found. We were trying to avoid a place which were likely to expose members of the public to a danger.

MR PANDAY: But wasn't a wholesaler situated next to the public, a place where the public was?

MR MALEVU: In that area, or that place, is not situated near a public area, there were not many people around there, and even then, the people would be moving around there at certain times.

The place would be busy at certain times.

MR PANDAY: Did you see who took the weapon of the security guard?

MR MALEVU: No, I did not.

MR PANDAY: Okay, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Malevu, I would like to inform you that I spoke to Ms

Mkhize yesterday and she confirmed to me that the statement that you and Ziba and Mzwake Shandu gathered and applied for amnesty unilaterally, in one application form, which was signed by Ziba, it is what you have told her. I just want to put that to you. She is going to come today and give evidence to that effect, what is your response to that?

MR MALEVU: There is not much I can say about what Mrs Mkhize alleges.

MS THABETHE: What I want to know from you is, do you still insist that you never told her that you signed one application form, and through that you had intended to apply by signing one application form? I want you to tell me whether you deny that, or whether you agree with that?

MR MALEVU: I deny having made that statement.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I would like to speak to Mr Cele quickly, because he is the one who took the statement as well, with Mkhize. He is right next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: How long is that going to take?

MS THABETHE: He is right next to me, I just want to speak to him quickly. Thank you Mr Chair, I am ready to proceed with my cross-examination.

Mr Malevu, my instructions from Mr Joshua Cele, who is sitting next to me, and he will give evidence to that effect is that he did give you the statement and you read through it. You even requested for a copy, which he faxed to you later on, and it is going to be his evidence that you did say to him that you completed one application form with Shandu and Malevu, sorry and Mpanza, and Ziba Mpanza was the one who signed the application form? What is your response?

MR MALEVU: I think there was a misunderstanding.

MS THABETHE: What do you mean? You were both speaking Zulu?

MR MALEVU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And both of you, that is Mr Shandu and yourself, said the same thing, that you completed one application form and by which you had intended to apply? Where was the misunderstanding, how did you misunderstand each other?

MR MALEVU: There were so many questions that he posed, that is Mr Cele and Mrs Mkhize. I think that because of the situation of the prisons, those are the factors that contributed to such problems. I did not say that we forwarded one application form. All I want to explain is this, the question that was posed to us was that, it was about me filling in the form, and in my form I stated Mr Mpanza, Shandu, Nmezela and Tekozani and even in Mpanza's form, he told me about the information in his form, I think those are such questions that led to some confusion.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something? Did you request a copy of this statement?

MR MALEVU: Yes, I did that.

MR LAX: And you received a faxed copy as he says you got?

MR MALEVU: I met with Mr Cele at the (indistinct), but I did not receive the copy. I explained to him and he told me that they couldn't send the copies. They also had a problem, but I never received that copy.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Joshua Cele will give evidence. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSES

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I am ready to call Mr Shandu, I am not sure if you want to take the short adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you. I call Mr Shandu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shandu, what language would you prefer to use?

MR SHANDU: Zulu.

MZWAKE SHANDU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Ms Shandu, were you convicted for the same incident that Mr Mpanza and Mr Malevu were convicted of?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Did you make an application for amnesty?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Which incident did you apply for amnesty for?

MR SHANDU: The incident that took place in Empangeni in the wholesaler there, the robbery.

MS MOHAMED: When did you make your application for amnesty?

MR SHANDU: I cannot remember the date, but I think it was early 1997.

MS MOHAMED: Where were you, sorry which prison were you being detained at this time?

MR SHANDU: I was in Waterval prison, Utrecht.

MS MOHAMED: How did you make an application for amnesty?

MR SHANDU: Will you please explain your question further, what do you mean?

MS MOHAMED: You said that you did make an application for amnesty?

MR SHANDU: Yes.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to make an application for amnesty?

MR SHANDU: In prison, we were being advised on how to forward the amnesty application. There was a place where one would go there and fill in the forms, and I was amongst those people who did so.

MS MOHAMED: After you filled in your form, what did you do to that form?

MR SHANDU: I handed it to a member who was dealing with such processes in prison.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Shandu, I am going to refer you to the bundle of documents before you. There is an affidavit that appears in this bundle, the hand-written affidavit appears from page 13 to 16.

In paragraph 2 of this affidavit, there is a sentence here which reads -

"... although I did not sign any form, I remember that we included our names and Ziba had to sign the application form."

Can you explain this, because there is clearly now a different version on these affidavits?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you answer that question, were you and Malevu together when you spoke to Mr Cele or were you separate?

MR SHANDU: We were not together, I was alone in Waterval and Malevu was already in Westville at the time, and I did not speak directly to Mr Cele. He was only introduced to me. It was only Sheila Mkhize that I spoke to.

MR LAX: Is that your signature on page 16?

MR SHANDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you see that it is dated the 8th of July 1999?

MR SHANDU: Yes.

MR LAX: That is the day after Mr Malevu signed his affidavit?

MR SHANDU: I am not sure whether that is a question or a statement.

MR LAX: Can you see that it is a day afterwards, he signed on the 7th, you signed on the 8th?

MR SHANDU: Where is Mr Malevu's signature, on what page?

MR LAX: Page 10. Sorry, I should have indicated that to you. If you look at the bottom of page 10, you will see that.

Do you see where he signed, your lawyer is pointing it out to you?

MR SHANDU: Yes, I can see that.

MR LAX: Do you also notice that the same person attested both statements and that was Mr Cele?

MR SHANDU: That is possible that it is the signature of the same person.

MR LAX: Yes. So Mr Cele must have spoken to you and said "is this affidavit the truth, do you swear that it is the truth" and you would have taken the oath and he would have signed it with you, is that right?

MR SHANDU: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it happen that you signed the statement?

MR SHANDU: I sent this statement after it was compiled, by Sheila, meaning Mr Joshua Cele and Sheila Mkhize came when I was sick there in prison, I didn't get time to read the whole statement.

I was just satisfied that he had written the statement the right way and decided to sign.

I even explained to them about my health condition, as a sick person.

MR LAX: Can I ask you a question, you see next to your signature there is a date, 8 July 1999, did you write that - 1999-07-08?

MR SHANDU: I do not remember writing the date, I only remember signing the document.

MR LAX: Is that your handwriting, is that how you write?

MR SHANDU: It is very difficult to identify the handwriting, when it is written in figures, but if it was just a handwriting, words, not figures, it would be easy for me to identify.

MR LAX: How did Ms Mkhize take the statement from you? Did she ask you questions and then you gave her answers and then you wrote them down?

MR SHANDU: I was sometimes asked questions and sometimes I would be expected to explain.

MR LAX: But basically she wrote down what you told her? Is that right?

MR SHANDU: I was not looking at her while she was writing, I cannot confirm that she was actually writing exactly what I was telling her.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, what is the position about the other matter? Have we got any response from the search?

MS THABETHE: No Mr Chair, I haven't had any indications from Mr Madlala, sorry from Mr Mpanza, who has gone to follow it up.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't received any response?

MS THABETHE: I haven't had any response.

MR LAX: Your phone has been off in the meantime?

MS THABETHE: But Molly would have told me what was happening.

MR LAX: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you in the meantime see if Molly can contact him and find out what the position is?

MS THABETHE: Okay, Mr Chair.

MR LAX: Just to finish off that issue, Mr Shandu, did you read this statement when it was finished, being written?

MR SHANDU: No.

MR LAX: Did she read it to you?

MR SHANDU: I cannot remember whether she did that, but as I explained initially, I was not as patient to listen to everything, even if she did that, because I was very sick. After compiling the statement and I trusted her, I signed the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a policeman prior to that, is that not so?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank did you hold?

MR SHANDU: I was a constable.

CHAIRPERSON: How long were you a policeman?

MR SHANDU: For five years at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were acquainted with the procedures as to making statements and the rights of people making statements and so forth, not so?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were quite acquainted with the importance of making statements? Not so, and the accuracy thereof? Correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How is it that you paid such a reduced attention to a statement that you were making, which would possibly secure your release from prison? Why is that?

MR SHANDU: If you are seriously ill as I was at that time, it is possible that such things can happen, because a person in my condition, even if I was supposed to appear in court for a certain offence, that would be postponed.

MR LAX: Mr Shandu, you knew that there was a problem with your application, isn't that so? Because they came to see you as perpetrators, not as applicants? Isn't that so? As implicated parties and that is when you found out that there was something wrong with your application?

CHAIRPERSON: Or that you did not make an application?

MR LAX: Isn't that so?

MR SHANDU: Will you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: I understood him, I will try to put it as simply as possible, the reason these policemen and investigators from the Truth Commission had come to see you, was because it wasn't clear whether you were an applicant or an implicated party. You must have therefore realised as a consequence of that, how important getting the right facts down now, were going to be as to how the Truth Commission would deal with your application? Isn't that so?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And yet you, an experienced policeman, knowing what the meaning of affidavits are, didn't bother to check it? The only explanation that you can give us is that you were sick?

MR SHANDU: Yes, I was very sick, and I had no reason not to trust them.

MR LAX: Do you think they had any reason to put words in your mouth that were not true?

MR SHANDU: I do not know, but that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, it is strange that on two different occasions a similar excuse, if I may call it that, in two different places, is tendered. It is such an unusual excuse, it is difficult to accept that it was the truth, or that you are telling us the truth now. It is hardly something to have been made up by the writer of that document, unless he received it from the deponents of that statements?

You see, from what you tell us, you didn't know what Malevu had told him in respect of this mess up? Is that not so?

MR SHANDU: Will you please repeat, what about Malevu?

CHAIRPERSON: When you made a statement, I think it was Waterval, where was it, where were you?

MR LAX: They were both at Westville when these two statements were taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when you made the statement? At which prison?

MR LAX: In July 1999, where were you, at which prison?

MR SHANDU: Waterval prison.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was at Westville?

MR SHANDU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he made his statement the day before you did? Correct? We showed you that? Correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't know that he had made a statement the previous day, did you?

MR SHANDU: No, I only got that from Sheila and Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know what he said in his statement? Correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, I did not know what was in his statement.

MR LAX: With regard to the rest of this matter, you have heard the evidence of both Mr Malevu and Mr Mpanza, do you confirm that as far as it relates to you, that it is true?

MR SHANDU: I do remember some of the things, I think that is true, but the testimony, more especially Mr Ziba's testimony took a long time. I cannot remember everything he said in his testimony.

MR LAX: Did you know Ziba before you went on this operation?

MR SHANDU: Yes. We were not friends, we were not as close, but I used to know him.

MR LAX: How was it that you just ended up going on this operation?

MR SHANDU: At first Malevu came, a person that I used to know very well, and a person who was a neighbour, who were friends, and he came to me to tell me, he actually asked for assistance, weapons, firearms and ammunition.

MR LAX: Why would you have weapons and ammunition and firearms?

MR SHANDU: In his mind, as a person who was working in the Police Force, he thought that he might get some assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of a political organisation at that stage, at that time?

MR SHANDU: I was just a supporter. I was not a card carrying member.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a policeman, though?

MR SHANDU: Yes, as there were other white policemen, who were also supporters in some political organisations.

MR LAX: Where were you stationed?

MR SHANDU: I started in Durban North and then I was transferred to Umhlanga Rocks. The incident took place while I was working at Umhlanga Rocks.

MR LAX: What was your role in going on this mission?

MR SHANDU: While we were ready to leave for Empangeni, they told me that they did not have enough ammunition for the 9mm firearm.

I had some that I could give to them and then we left for Empangeni, driving in a car.

MR LAX: What was your role on the mission, just to supply ammunition?

MR SHANDU: I was just one of them, and implicated as them in the operation, from the time they approached me, because I was going to play a role when we arrived at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, you knew that these people were looking for arms, was it explained to you that "look, it is for political reasons"?

MR SHANDU: Yes, I was briefed because they even told me that the money that they were going to get there, was going to be used for a certain purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you are a policeman at Umhlanga Rocks police station? Isn't that so?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want you to confirm because I have never worked in a police station, but I understand each police station has a gunnery, or what they refer to as a gunnery, where they put all the guns or an armoury, something like that, is that correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct, but it is not all the police stations that are equipped with that facility.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you people in Umhlanga Rocks police station keep your firearms?

MR SHANDU: It is a very small police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in the police station did you keep your firearms, I did not ask what the size of the police station was?

MR SHANDU: There was a safe and the only firearms are there for guard shooting, they were not sufficient for the operation that they were going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: How many arms were in that safe?

MR SHANDU: I can remember two, HMC and a shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you, where were you employed before Umhlanga Rocks, did you say?

MR SHANDU: I was in Durban North.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an armoury there?

MR SHANDU: Yes, there was, though I did not have access to it.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not talking about access to it, why do you talk about that? Anyway, how many guns were there?

MR SHANDU: I never counted them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there many, there must have been many then, if you cannot say how many? Correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, there were many.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew the inns and outs of the police station in Durban North, because you worked there, correct?

MR SHANDU: Would you please repeat your question, I did not understand?

CHAIRPERSON: You knew what the rosters were and you knew your way around the police station in Durban North, not so? You worked there?

MR SHANDU: I did not know everything, I only know things that were related to my duties.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you knew there were many guns there, and you knew where it was kept in the armoury there, correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As being employed by the South African Police Services, although it was at Umhlanga Rocks, you were able to find out what the rosters were at Durban North, not so? A few questions here and there, you would know who is on duty and who is not on duty, not so, and when? Correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there would be times that there would only be two people on duty in the charge office, at any given time, especially at night, not so? Correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What stopped you and your colleagues from going there to the Durban North police station one night, when only two policemen were on duty, to go and rob that police station of all the guns in the armoury? That would have sorted out the problem that you people faced?

MR SHANDU: Two policemen who were on night duty, where the police who would be in the charge office, I am not talking about the police who would be patrolling with a van.

There was, there has never been a shift with only two people.

CHAIRPERSON: There would be two policemen to defend the police station in Durban North, at night, you people were four? Is that not so, or five in fact, maybe? Why was it so impossible to overcome these policemen, when you knew how to go about your way there in the police station, you worked there?

MR SHANDU: Even if we were then, that was not going to render any help, because they came to the armoury, I didn't even know where it was kept, up until my last day at that particular police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consider that plan?

MR SHANDU: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But shouldn't the police on duty have access to the armoury because you never know what happens during the night, police sometimes need the arms? Is that not true? So the key must have been in the vicinity of that charge office?

MR SHANDU: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was a problem there that the police required firearms, then the Durban North police would not have been able to help, they would be rendered inefficient? Is that what you are saying?

MR SHANDU: There would be an R1 that was kept in a safe in the charge office, and one big rifle, but not other key to the armoury.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, have you got any more questions, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: No Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MR LAX: Chair, I've just got one question. What portion were you supposed to receive, what portion of money were you supposed to receive, or is just another mistake that was made in your affidavit?

MR SHANDU: The portion that I was talking about, the money that was to be acquired, it doesn't specify, it was not specified, but according to my agreement with Ziba Mpanza, it was stated that as a person that was employed, I incurred some expenses during the preparations of this trip, and as a person who had children, I had to, on my way back, I had to be given that money and replace it wherever it came from, it was not that they were thanking me for the role that I had played, or as being played a role in the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: If that was not agreed to, would you have participated in the escapade?

MR SHANDU: Besides the agreement, I was already part of this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, when you went on this robbery expedition, you say that you knew you had to replace certain moneys, disbursements, why are you unable to tell us what that amount is, because you would have already disbursed it on your way to Empangeni? You must have known how much you must collect, why are you unable to tell us?

MR SHANDU: Maybe I did not understand the question, I did not think that the question is about how much was the money that was going to be allocated to me, I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the question was very simple, if I remember it correctly. This portion you were supposed to receive, how much was that, that was the question, wasn't it?

MR SHANDU: The money that was supposed to be given to me to pay for the expenses, was R1,000.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do we struggle to get that answer?

MR SHANDU: I thought, I did not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MOHAMED: I have nothing further, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Mr Shandu, it is correct that the R1,000 was for your leaving work for a couple of days, and taking moneys home, for your children, is that correct?

MR SHANDU: I did not understand your question, sir.

MR PANDAY: When you said the R1 000-00 was for expenses, what expenses did you incur?

MR SHANDU: I think that even comrade Mpanza made mention of the fact that as we were going there, we were expecting, we knew in advance that a shoot-out would take place, but as Africans, we normally use special herbs and ntelezi before taking such trips. I am the one who had money to pay for such facilities, because the comrades that were with me, most of them were unemployed.

MR PANDAY: Now earlier on when you gave your evidence, you didn't mention anything about ntelezi or the herbs, it is only now that I bring it to your attention to clarify expenses. I recall you mentioned about taking leave from work and the days you were going to miss.

MR LAX: Paying money for your children?

MR PANDAY: Paying money for your children, that is why I mentioned your children, you never mentioned herbs?

MR SHANDU: It is because no one asked me specifically about the money, the purpose that the money was going to be used for. This is the first time that this question is being posed.

MR PANDAY: No, you are now lying, because the Chairman asked you what were the expenses, what was the money for, you said expenses and then you detailed the expenses. You had a chance to talk about ntelezi?

MR SHANDU: If you say I am telling lies, I take it that is what is on your mind, but I am telling you exactly what happened there, because I was the one who was there, I am the one who was there.

MR PANDAY: Now another curious thing, you mentioned that you joined the Police Force in 1986, to also supply weapons and firearms. Did you apply for amnesty for these incidents?

MR SHANDU: What incident are you talking about?

MR PANDAY: Right, okay, in paragraph 3 on page 11, you say the following

"... in 1986 I joined the Police Force."

You can listen to me, I am reading the paragraph, it is being interpreted to you.

"... in 1986 I joined the Police Force and I should supply them with firearms and rounds of ammunition, taken from exhibits."

Are you talking about Ziba and Malevu that you should supply firearms?

MR SHANDU: This is one of the mistakes, no one will ever join the Police Force with the intention of supplying firearms, no one accepts that in the Police Force. I would never make that mistake, joining the Police Force with the aim of supplying the firearms.

MR PANDAY: But you say this in your affidavit, you did not dispute this part of the affidavit? You only disputed the part where the filling of the application form was concerned?

MR SHANDU: No person who is sane, who can join the Police Force and supply the firearms in the Police Force, that will never happen.

MR PANDAY: Okay, you supplied them with rounds of ammunition?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it to you, no sound policeman would embark on a robbery, the public expects but you did it? Don't come and tell us about the soundness of police minds, answer the question.

MR PANDAY: My question to you again is that, did you supply them with rounds of ammunition?

MR SHANDU: When I get them, I used to give that to them, but that is not something that I used to have with me all the time, but I would get it and then I would give it to them.

MR PANDAY: So the truth is that before this incident, you used to supply them with rounds of ammunition?

MR SHANDU: Even though we are not talking about the same people, but it happened, it could have happened that any comrade from the ANC, I would assist that particular comrade with such ammunition.

MR PANDAY: Did you get this ammunition whilst employed at the Police?

MR SHANDU: We would get, I would get it when I am going to the shooting range.

MR PANDAY: Right, so as a policeman, you should supply ammunition, that is correct now?

MR SHANDU: I do not understand the question now.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, answer this question before you clarify the other one, this bits of ammunition that you used to give to any comrade as you say, were they, was that ammunition Police issue? Did you get it from the Police?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you get paid for it?

MR SHANDU: I would get it when I am going to the shooting range, but I did not understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get paid for it when you gave it to the comrades?

MR SHANDU: Who would be paying me?

CHAIRPERSON: The comrades who would receive the ammunition?

MR SHANDU: I was not expecting any money from them, because they had nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get paid at times when they did have money?

MR SHANDU: No, it never happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So would you expect to be paid if they had money? You didn't expect it because they didn't have money, however, what about the reverse? Weren't you selling ammunition and arms to these people?

MR SHANDU: I was not selling it to them, and I was not even expecting money.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did you explain the missing ammunition to your superiors when you give it away?

MR SHANDU: I was never questioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, how did you plan to explain?

MR SHANDU: That was not possible, because if you are going to the shooting range, you are given a certain amount of ammunition, and it is up to you to use all of them or some of them. You are not expected to bring them back, the ones that were unused, because in the (indistinct) the superiors would think that you had used all the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: That ammunition was marked, isn't it? Correct? All SAPS ammunition is specially marked, not so, and it used to be at that time? Is that correct?

MR SHANDU: I never noticed any marks on the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't know whether any cartridges could be identified as coming from the gun of a policeman? You didn't know that?

MR LAX: Perhaps we should take the adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MZWAKE SHANDU: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: (continued) Mr Shandu, finally my question to you is that for the incidents where you supplied ammunition and weapons, have you applied for amnesty for those incidents? I am not talking about the robbery at Avocas Wholesalers, I am talking about paragraph 3, you mentioned you supplied rounds of ammunition and firearms, have you applied for amnesty for those incidents?

MR SHANDU: No, I never supplied any firearms.

MR PANDAY: The rounds of ammunition that you supplied, did you apply for ammunition for those incidents?

MR SHANDU: No, I did not.

MR PANDAY: Any particular reason why you did not apply for amnesty?

MR SHANDU: I thought that I was going to get the opportunity when testifying on this incident, I did - it is something that I have mentioned in this same application that I am here about.

MR PANDAY: Did you mention to whom you supplied the ammunition, in the application that you talk about?

MR SHANDU: No, I cannot remember if I made mention of that, but if it is necessary for me to do so, I can do that.

MR PANDAY: Do you know the names of the people you supplied ammunition to?

MR SHANDU: The one that I referred to in this application, are you talking about that?

MR PANDAY: I am talking about paragraph 3, where you talk about supplying ammunition.

MR SHANDU: Can I please be given a moment to check on that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, does it matter to whom he - he has admitted that he has sold to other people?

MR PANDAY: Okay, Mr Shandu, finally, do you know exactly what was the operation to take place in Avocas Wholesalers for?

MR SHANDU: Yes, I had knowledge about that.

MR PANDAY: What was the operation about? Very briefly tell us, what do you know the operation was about?

MR SHANDU: All I know is that the money that was going to be found there, was to be given to the comrades of Mkababa, to assist them in buying firearms, secondly, Steyn who was working for the Murder and Robbery in Empangeni, was going to be killed.

MR PANDAY: Okay, thank you. Nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Shandu, I spoke to Sheila Mkhize telephonically and she is on her way to this hearing. It is going to be her evidence that all the facts written in the statement, on page 11 or page 13 to 16, is information that you gave to her. Would you like to respond to that?

MR SHANDU: What she had written here, I cannot dispute that she is not the person who wrote it, but some of the things that are written here, I know nothing about.

MS THABETHE: Just for the record, which paragraphs don't you know anything about so that Sheila can respond to those paragraphs accordingly?

MR LAX: Just before you do, are you saying someone else wrote the statement and not Ms Mkhize?

MR SHANDU: What I can say in this affidavit, paragraph 2 I know nothing about that, because I wouldn't write, I wouldn't compile an application form with Malevu and Ziba, while I was in Waterval and they were in Westville. I think you should have asked herself a question how did that happen, because I was in Waterval and the other two were at Westville prison.

MS THABETHE: What else don't you agree with in this statement?

MR SHANDU: Paragraph 3, there is something written there that I joined the Police Force to supply them with firearms and ammunition rounds, to me it sounds more like I was a person who joined the Police Force specifically to supply firearms and ammunition, and that is not true.

MR LAX: It does not say that at all. It says

"... in 1986 I joined the Police Force, and I should supply him with firearms and rounds."

In other words, while you were a member of the Police Force, you used to supply him and I am assuming that him is Sifiso Malevu, who is in the first sentence?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the term is then.

MR LAX: If you look at the original, you can see it is him, not them. It might have been a typing error, but it is clear that it is an "i" with a dot on it and everything. Whoever translated it, obviously made a mistake, that is why I am reading it from - and therefore it makes sense because he is talking about Sifiso Malevu being his friend, and then he talks about then he joined the Police Force, and then he used to supply him? Did you not supply Sifiso Malevu with firearms and rounds of ammunition?

MR SHANDU: No, I never supplied him with firearms.

MR LAX: But you did supply him with rounds of ammunition?

MR SHANDU: During the preparations for this operation that was to take place at Empangeni, secondly it is possible that because of one, because I did not write the statement, I did not understand what is being said in paragraph 3, I did not understand that paragraph.

To me, I cannot reconcile the two, joining the Police Force and supplying the firearms and ammunition. If one can explain briefly to me the gist of this paragraph.

MR LAX: We have explained it to you, I have read it to you, it is very simple. The gist of it is that you don't agree. What else don't you agree with in this statement?

While we are at it, did you take rounds from exhibits at all?

MR SHANDU: What exhibit?

MR LAX: You are a policeman, for goodness sake, you know what an exhibit is?

MR SHANDU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did this come from, is it something that the recorder made up? Is that what you are suggesting, that this is untrue and it is in this statement as a result of a fantasy or fabrication of someone else?

MR SHANDU: I don't know, but as far as I am concerned, what I have explained to you is what happened, that is how I used to get the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: It has to be a fabrication then, someone is trying to blame you for something that is not true, and implicating you in something that you know nothing of? It has to be a lie, if what you are telling us, is the truth? Isn't it, it is not a question that you don't know, someone put this into a statement that you signed, you say it is not true, you don't know anything about it, so it must have been inserted and fabricated by somebody else, not so?

MR SHANDU: I do not know that, but as far as I am concerned, I never took any ammunition from the exhibits.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never told anybody that you did so?

MR SHANDU: No.

MR LAX: What else is wrong in this statement? If at all?

MR SHANDU: For now I have spotted that as a mistake.

MS THABETHE: Okay. On paragraph 5 of your statement you say that your presence, you say Ziba and Sifiso approached you, requesting for more arms and for your company for an operation that was to be executed at Empangeni, correct and then you say

"... my presence would assist them in escaping from being searched by the police or even arrest, because as a policeman, I would produce my appointment certificate when necessary."

That is correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes, that is true. Ziba and Malevu came to me, but before that, Malevu came alone.

MS THABETHE: That is fine, but the gist of the matter is that you assisted them, because you were a policeman, and because when they escaped, they wouldn't be searched by the police because you were there, that is the gist of the matter, isn't it?

MR SHANDU: I was doing the job that I was supposed to do, I was not helping them.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You have put a fair summary of that to him.

MS THABETHE: Sorry?

JUDGE POTGIETER: I say you have put a fair summary of that to him, perhaps you should carry on with something else?

MS THABETHE: Yes. Actually I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I call Lindani Nteani.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Lindani Nteani.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nteani, which language would you prefer to use?

MR NTEANI: I would like to use Zulu.

LINDANI NTEANI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nteani, during 1991, were you a member of any political party?

MR NTEANI: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: Which party was this?

MR NTEANI: I was an ANC member.

MS MOHAMED: Did you occupy any specific rank within the organisation?

MR NTEANI: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: What rank was this?

MR NTEANI: I was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.

MS MOHAMED: For which area?

MR NTEANI: In Mkababa, the Danganga Branch.

MS MOHAMED: For how long did you hold this rank?

MR NTEANI: Prior to being the Chairperson of the Youth League, I was President of the Gangani Youth Congress, that was prior to the unbanning of the ANC. When the ANC was unbanned, I was then appointed Chairperson of the Youth League.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Nteani, you were present in court when Mr Mpanza gave his evidence, isn't that correct?

MR NTEANI: Please repeat that question.

MS MOHAMED: Let me just rephrase this. Do you know the applicant, Mr Mpanza?

MR NTEANI: Yes, I know him.

MS MOHAMED: How do you know him?

MR NTEANI: I first knew him around the 1980's, when we were both members of the kwaMashu Youth League where I used to reside. That was prior to his departure for exile. We later met in 1989, when I was in Angola, where I underwent a crash course.

At that time, he was an instructor at that base in Bangwe in Angola.

MS MOHAMED: When did you return to South Africa?

MR NTEANI: I returned towards the end of 1989.

MS MOHAMED: Did you ever meet Mr Mpanza thereafter?

MR NTEANI: I met him either in November or December 1991.

MS MOHAMED: Where did you meet him?

MR NTEANI: At kwaMashu.

MS MOHAMED: What did you all speak about when you met him?

MR NTEANI: I had left Mkababa to see him because of a problem that we experienced in our area. There was violence between the ANC and the IFP. We also experienced problems with the police prior to the violence erupting between the ANC and the IFP, there had been conflict with the police, so that when the IFP came into the picture, this violence escalated. When I went to see him, I wanted to find out from him if he could assist in the supplying of firearms as well as the training of people in our area, who would be responsible for protecting the community, in other words Self Defence Units.

MS MOHAMED: What did he say?

MR NTEANI: Firstly he told me that it was rather difficult because they did not have weapons. He informed me that when they came back from exile, they did not have weapons. I then requested him to try whatever means to secure these weapons because of the extent of the violence in our area. He then promised that he would see what to do.

MS MOHAMED: Why did you specifically choose to speak to Mr Mpanza about this problem?

MR NTEANI: The first reason was that he is the one person I knew better amongst MK cadres. Secondly, I regarded him as my Commander, because when I underwent training, he was the Commander at Angola. Also we worked very closely when we were still members of the kwaMashu Youth League in the 1980's.

Another reason was that he was very disciplined in following policies. Also as a Chairperson of the Youth League, I had to approach somebody who had discipline, who would carry out his activities in a manner that was in line with the policy, that was the reason why I approached Ziba.

MS MOHAMED: When you put this request to him, what was his response?

MR NTEANI: As I have already mentioned, he said there was a problem of the non-availability of firearms. After I had further pleaded with him, he promised that he would see what he could do.

MS MOHAMED: Did he ever come back to you with progress on your request?

MR NTEANI: We did contact each other on a few occasions, however, he did not specify what steps he was taking, he just promised that I should wait and he would come up with something.

MS MOHAMED: So did he ever come back to you and tell you exactly what, did he ever get back to you with a positive response or a negative response, apart from these initial discussions?

MR LAX: He has just told us that they did contact each other a few times, he never told him what he was going to do, but he promised that he would come up with something.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Lax. Did he ever get back to you after that?

MR NTEANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever give him advice as to what to do?

MR NTEANI: I did not know what he should do or what he could do. I relied on him as a cadre, so there was nothing that I suggested to him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't give him advice or suggest anything that he should do, you had faith in him as a cadre and you left it up to him, correct?

MR NTEANI: That is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR LAX: Just while you are, can you just explain one thing to us. He put you down as the person who gave him the orders?

MR NTEANI: I will say perhaps he regarded me as such because of our discussion. I think he responded to that question when he testified. I cannot comment on it, because he is the one who wrote it down.

MR LAX: Yes, but you regarded him as your Commander, not the other way around?

MR NTEANI: The distinction is that Ziba was a soldier and I was more active in politics. Normally soldiers receive directives from political leaders. They on their own, do not take initiatives, but they follow directives from political leaders.

MR LAX: Then why did you tell us earlier that you regarded him as your Commander? That is why you went to him, because you regarded him as your Commander.

MR NTEANI: I have explained that he was a Commander in the military.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further for this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I would like to call Mr Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MR LAX: He is Mayibuya, the one from eSikhaweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala, which language would you wish to use?

MR SHABALALA: Zulu.

TULANI SHABALALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala ...

MR LAX: Just for the record, are you Tulani Shabalala, the person referred to in these affidavits?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And you were also known as Mayibuya?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct, that is my combat name.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Shabalala, were you a member of any political organisation during 1991?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, I was an ANC member as well as being a member of MK.

MS MOHAMED: Did you hold, apart from this, did you hold any other particular rank within the organisation?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, I did.

MS MOHAMED: Can you tell us what that rank was?

MR SHABALALA: I served on the Regional Executive Committee of the Natal Region, I was also the Head of Security in the Intelligence section. I was also an MK member.

MS MOHAMED: Around 1991, which area were you based in?

MR SHABALALA: At Empangeni.

MS MOHAMED: What was your role there?

MR SHABALALA: As I have mentioned, I was Head of Security responsible for the protection of the leadership in the region and when national leaders arrived at Empangeni, I would be responsible for security. I was also Head of Intelligence, responsible for gathering information. I was also Commander of MK.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Shabalala, do you know the applicant, Mr Mpanza?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, I know Ziba Mpanza.

MS MOHAMED: How did you know him?

MR SHABALALA: I first knew him from kwaMashu where I used to reside. I also met him in Angola, where I had undergone a training course in shooting as well as in communication.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, for the purposes of what I think you called this witness, is it absolutely necessary to read out all his credentials?

MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's get to the hub of the matter then.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala, did you meet the applicant around 1991?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, we did meet here in Durban.

MS MOHAMED: What was the purpose of your meeting?

MR SHABALALA: The primary aim was to discuss a problem of a person known as Steyn and his other name Mtagati, loosely translated a witchdoctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me? I didn't hear that last answer.

INTERPRETER: The applicant said the primary purpose of the meeting was to discuss Steyn whose other name was Mtagati, and I said loosely translated that means witchdoctor.

CHAIRPERSON: He said Steyn?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS MOHAMED: Why did you want to discuss Mr Steyn with Mr Mpanza?

MR SHABALALA: I discussed the matter with Ziba, because he was a sniper. I was looking for somebody who could kill Mr Steyn, because he was a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala, have you made application for any amnesty?

MR SHABALALA: No, I did not. However, I believe that the leadership had submitted an application which included everyone.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they have lost that application, if you did not hear, but be that as it may, I want to point out to you that you had not been subpoenaed by the TRC and in the circumstances, I am not too sure whether you are protected from prosecution. I want to tell you or inform you that if that is so, you are not compelled to answer any questions that may implicate you.

Do you understand that?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: Now, what did Ziba say to you after you discussed this with him?

MR SHABALALA: As a soldier, I had left everything up to him, because the situation was urgent, he promised that he would take action as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala, I think I have discussed the matter with my colleagues, and we think it is safer to explain the warning I have just given you, much more.

You see, to an extent, in terms of the Act under which we sit, people who testify are protected from further, from having what they said here, being used as evidence in other matters, such as criminal matters, civil matters, in respect of delict. But we have doubts as to whether you are in a position to claim that protection, and given that, you have been asked questions about an incident in which you may be criminally involved, for example this has already been done, so there is nothing we can do about that, is that you told us that you were party to a plan, a conspiracy to assassinate at least Mr Steyn, who is known as a witchdoctor. Do you understand that? Conspiracy is a crime in itself and you are not compelled to answer any questions that may lead to implicating you.

Do you understand that? You don't have to answer those questions which you feel, may incriminate you. If you have doubts, you can ask me whether you should answer the question or not. As far as I can, I will help you. Do you understand that?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you feel that you must answer a question which may incriminate you, please tell us that you have doubts about the answer of this question, and you think it would implicate you and therefore you refuse to answer the question. Do you understand that?

MR SHABALALA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, you obviously consulted with the witness, I am largely in your hands as to really drive this, to avoid questions that may lead to what we are talking about.

MS MOHAMED: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on. Mr Mayibuya, you have been sitting in the hearing throughout the hearing, is that not so?

MR SHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say that I noticed you at the back of the hall, and I got the impression that you appreciated some of the questions that were asked, and the answers that were given, some of which did not even impress you? Do you want to answer?

MR SHABALALA: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are aware of what was said here about this incident and how you fitted in there, whatever occurred. Is that correct?

MR SHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm what was said there in so far as it affects you or don't you agree with it?

MR SHABALALA: There is nothing that I do not agree with.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't wish to amend anything?

MR SHABALALA: No, there is nothing.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, if I may just have a moment. thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, on that basis, I have no further questions for this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MR PANDAY: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's case.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your lot, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you got any witnesses?

MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman, no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I would like to call ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we take lunch now? We will take lunch.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MS THABETHE: I would like her to take the oath, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she Miss or Mrs?

MS THABETHE: Mrs.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you wish to use?

MS MKHIZE: I wish to use English.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

SHEILA MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Ms Mkhize, is it true that you are the investigator for the TRC?

MS MKHIZE: That is true.

MS THABETHE: Is it also true that you were an investigator in the matter of Mpanza?

MS MKHIZE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Who is the applicant, and Malevu and Shandu, who are implicated persons in this matter?

MS MKHIZE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: We have you here just to clarify one discrepancy, or a few issues in this application. I would start with the statement of Shandu. Do you remember going to Shandu in prison?

MS MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell the Committee what led you to go to Shandu in prison?

MS MKHIZE: I went to Waterval prison which is outside of Newcastle to obtain a statement from Shandu and also to clarify some points that were not clear in the application of Mr Gerald Mpanza, and also to find out from him what actually transpired in the matter, because he had since been implicated by Mr Mpanza, the applicant.

MS THABETHE: Now, did you take a statement from him?

MS MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE: Is this the statement on page 13, hand-written statement on page 13, 14, 15 and 16?

MS MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Is this your handwriting?

MS MKHIZE: Yes, it is my handwriting.

MS THABETHE: What language did you use when you were taking the statement?

MS MKHIZE: We communicated in Zulu with Shandu because I knew that he was a Zulu speaker, I asked him and then he told me that he would be comfortable in talking in Zulu.

MS THABETHE: And then how did it come about that the statement was in English?

MS MKHIZE: Now, as my evidence, I was forced and compelled to take the statement down in English.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

MS MKHIZE: I would say it was translated by me from Zulu into English.

MS THABETHE: Okay. In paragraph 2 of Shandu's statement, he states that he signed a form, sorry he states that although ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, in this statement it appears that he signed a separate statement, is that what it says?

MR LAX: They made a global application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it appears from that statement that Mr Shandu had indicated that he had in fact made an application together with two others. That is the way to put the question, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because exactly what he said is in dispute.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain why that appears in that statement?

MS MKHIZE: I will say Mr Chairperson, whatever appears in this statement, is what I was told by Mr Shandu.

CHAIRPERSON: He disputes that.

MS MKHIZE: If he does dispute it, then I don't know at what point, because I would say it is a lie, because after obtaining a statement from him, I read it out to him and he confirmed that all that was written down, was true.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions?

MS MOHAMED: No.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

MR PANDAY: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I call Joshua Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, what language would you wish to speak?

MR CELE: I wish to testify in Zulu, Mr Chair.

JOSHUA CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Cele, is it correct that you are an investigator working for the Truth Commission?

MR CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Taking into consideration that you heard my questioning Ms Mhkize, I will take you through to the statement right away. Did you go to Westville prison to take a statement from Goodman Malevu?

MR CELE: Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE: What was the reason for you to go to him and to take a statement?

MR CELE: I was assisting Ms Mkhize in investigating the application of Mr Mpanza.

MS THABETHE: Was Ms Mkhize present when you took the statement?

MR CELE: Yes, she was present.

MS THABETHE: Is this the statement that appears, hand-written on page 6 to 10 of the bundle? I would like my learned colleague, Mr Panday to show the witness please.

MR CELE: Yes, it is.

MS THABETHE: The same issue is in dispute, Mr Cele, and I would like you to respond. Mr Malevu has testified to the fact that it is incorrect what is written on paragraph 10 of his statement, to the effect that they made the same application with Mr Ziba Mpanza and Mr Shandu?

MR CELE: What I put down on the statement was what was communicated to me by Mr Malevu. I could not have applicated any other thing.

MS THABETHE: What language did you use when you were taking the statement from him?

MR CELE: We were communicating in Zulu.

MS THABETHE: After you had taken the statement from him, did you read it to him, before he signed it?

MR CELE: Yes, I did and he also read it on his own.

MS THABETHE: Is it also correct Mr Cele, that you faxed a copy of his statement to him later on?

MR CELE: Indeed, he requested a copy, however the copy machine was not working at prison, so I went back to the office and faxed him the copy. He also telephoned me to say that he had received it.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Cele, it was Mr Malevu's evidence that after the statement was taken down by you, you asked him whether you should read it to him, is that - sorry and then Mr Malevu said no, because at that time he was going to take his meal and he was pushed for time, and therefore the statement was never read to him. Can you comment on that?

MR CELE: That is not true. When we spoke with Mr Malevu, I gained the impression that he was a knowledgeable and intelligent person, to the extent that when he read the statement himself, he requested that I remove some bits that I had written down. I do not understand how he claims that.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would he have asked for you to remove such? Is there anything that is removed from the statement?

MR CELE: Yes, on page 8, paragraph 8 on the same page.

CHAIRPERSON: The words "from Empangeni" has been removed, deleted?

MR CELE: Yes, after he had read it, he said he was not certain that he had resided at Empangeni. However, he knew the area, that is why he do not stand close to Tekozani when the crime was committed.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Cele, this faxed copy that you said you sent to Mr Malevu at prison, he says he never received that, can you comment?

MR CELE: Yes, I would comment. Mr Malevu used to telephone us to find out what was happening about his application. On one such occasion, he confirmed that he had received the fax which had been addressed to somebody who worked at the prison. The confirmation that he had received it, was from him.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Just one question. Mr Cele, when you completed the statement, did Mr Malevu at any stage appear to be in a hurry to get to taking his meals, because he has indicated that he trusted you and that he needed to get to his meals?

MR CELE: No, we spent a lot of time discussing this issue with Mr Malevu, we spent about two hours, and it was also in the morning, so I am not certain as to which meal he wanted to take at that time.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable with English?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day did you take this statement?

MR CELE: It was a mistake that it is not reflected on the statement, but when I arrived, it was around ten o'clock when we started discussing this matter with Mr Malevu.

CHAIRPERSON: One last question, when did he start phoning you enquiring about the application?

MR CELE: A few days after we had been to the prison, because he had requested that I leave the office telephone numbers for him to contact us, should there be a need. I would say perhaps after two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you went to see him as an implicated person, he never contacted you about an application?

MR CELE: Well, he had never contacted me, as well as for the fact that I was assisting Sheila in this matter, because this was her case. I was seeing him for the first time on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: And he had access to a telephone?

MR CELE: I am not certain of prison regulations.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but he was able to phone you, so he must have had access to a telephone to phone you?

MR CELE: I will say yes, because I would be speaking to him directly.

CHAIRPERSON: And he would be able to phone the offices of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission at his own request?

MR CELE: Yes, I think that will be so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS THABETHE: That is all Mr Chair, thank you.

MS MOHAMED IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chair. Very briefly, it is my instructions that the applicants acted and they insist that they did, because of the political situation which existed in Mkababa and Empangeni.

Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, I am aware that given the nature of the testimony lead here, it becomes increasingly difficult for me to put forward a concrete basis for submissions, and to say that I have been embarrassed is putting it mildly, but I leave the decision ...

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your position, Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: On that basis, Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, I leave the decision in your hands. Thank you.

MR PANDAY: They have no real case.

MS THABETHE: The same applies, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take time to give a decision in this matter. I think that brings an end to the roll.

MS THABETHE: Not really, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What have we got left?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I will start with the matter of Songomoni Pillay, which was on the roll and put it on record that we received a letter from him, dated the 23rd of August 2000 where he withdraws his application, and I would like to put that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS THABETHE: Thank you. The next matter, Mr Chair, was the matter of Eric Molobe, it is one of the applications that we have had various problems with. The investigator, Mpume, even wrote a letter explaining the problems she has had with trying to get hold of the applicant. The applicant was duly notified of this hearing, his matter was set down for yesterday, Wednesday. CHAIRPERSON: And?

MS THABETHE: And he hasn't turned up, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that he was properly notified?

MS THABETHE: I am satisfied, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that matter is then struck from the roll.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, if I may just add for the record, this matter was initially set down on the 14th to the 18th of February 2000, there the applicant did not attend the hearing. The proceedings continued with regard to other matters, but he never pitched at the hearing. The same has happened in this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Like I said the matter is struck from the roll.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other matter that we need to deal with?

MS THABETHE: That is the end of the roll, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Then this hearing is adjourned.

HEARING ADJOURNS