Amnesty Hearings

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is Jabu Jacob Nyethe, application number 7285 and his application itself appears on page 166 of I think it's volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyethe, what language would you prefer to use?

MR NYETHE: Zulu.

JABU JACOB NYETHE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nyethe, do you belong to any political party?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: You have applied for the amnesty for the offences of murder, attempted murder, kidnapping and possession of an unlicensed firearm, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: When did this incident occur?

MR NYETHE: In 1993, I don't remember which month.

MR SAMUELS: Now can you describe the incidents - can you describe in your own words the event that you're applying for amnesty for?

MR NYETHE: In 1993 in Thokoza Extension 2 we were an Danger Zone near the hostel. The commander came, his name is Ben. He told us about Sibongele, that Sibongele was with the IFP. As a commander, we didn't ask him too many questions and so he ordered us to go and kill Sibongele together with her sibling, I don't know the sibling's name. We went there together with other comrades, Mogoera, Vuyisile, Jango, Mavi, Mdmase, Doctor, Joseph and others, I don't remember their names because it was too many of us. We went to Sibongele's place. Sibongele escaped to Extension 5. We found her there at Extension 5. We brought her back. When we brought her back we went to her place and collected her sibling and Ben ordered us to go and kill her at Unit F at a certain Danger Zone near the hostel.

When we were on our way Ben stopped us, myself, Mogoera and Vuyisile. He told us not continue to Danger Zone because we didn't have firearms. When we were there we looked for another safe place and Ben returned back home. We waited there to hear firearms or fire shots. We were surprised because we didn't hear anything until one comrade came, his name was Siphiwe. When he arrived there he asked us why we were waiting there. We explained everything to him, we told him that we were waiting for comrades because we were waiting for comrades to shoot Sibongele. He asked us why we were not at the danger zone so that we see when they kill Sibongele. We told him that we couldn't because we didn't have guns. He took one Makarof and gave it to me and he said to me I must go there and see what was going on.

I went there with Vuyisile, he left behind with Mogoera. On our way Doctor came and he was running. We asked him as to where were the other comrades. He told us that they were busy that side and when I asked him "busy doing what?" he continued telling us that they were busy raping Sibongele and her sibling and I got mad because it wasn't the way to go about it.

Me and Vuyisile ran to that place. When we arrived there surely Mdmase and another guy, his name is Mavi, they were busy raping them. Because there were too many comrades there, some of them were inside the yard and some were inside the house. When I arrived there I took out that Makarof and I pointed the gun to the comrades to shoot them and I missed them and Sibongele's sibling got shot and my gun had only four bullets and then I shot Sibongele and Sibongele's sibling was down, she tried to grab me and then I shot at her with that one remaining bullet. As I was walking outside Mdmase was waiting there, I asked Mdmase to finish them with that AK47 and I heard that gunfire and I told myself that Mdmase has finished them and I went to Spruit to report and the next day they were called and they were shambokked. That's all.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Nyethe, you mentioned an AK47 a moment ago in your evidence in chief. Did you have that weapon with you?

MR NYETHE: No, I didn't have an AK47, Mdmase had an AK47.

MR SAMUELS: When you told Mdmase to finish the job, what did you mean?

MR NYETHE: I meant that he must shoot them.

MR SAMUELS: Did you know with regard to the Makarof pistol that you had that it was illegal to possess such a firearm?

MR NYETHE: Yes I knew but the situation forced us to possess those illegal firearms and it wasn't as much as a crime.

MR SAMUELS: Just very briefly, Mr Nyethe, explain why your commander, Ben, Ben Mashanini, is that correct? Was it Ben Mashanini who was your commander?

MR NYETHE: Yes it was Ben Mashanini.

MR SAMUELS: Explain why Ben asked you to attack Sibongele's house?

MR NYETHE: As from 1990 Sibongele was a member of IFP and she was running a certain spot and after IFP members have attacked people they will come to Sibongele's place and drink there and they will be happy, celebrate at Sibongele's place.

MR SAMUELS: When you went to Extension 5 with the comrades to collect Sibongele, did she want to come with you?

MR NYETHE: No she didn't, we forced her.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Swanepoel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nyethe, when you - do you Sibongele's sister, do you know what her name is?

MR NYETHE: No I don't know her name.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now let me concentrate on her for now. You testified that when you initially went to, may I use the word arrest, Sibongele and take her to be executed that she escaped to another section and that you followed her and caught her there, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And that at that stage she was alone and you went back and you fetched her sister and you took the two of them away, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And that your instructions from your commander, Ben, was to kill Sibongele because she was an IFP informer, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Why did you go and fetch her sister?

MR NYETHE: Her sister was a girlfriend of a certain member of the IFP, so we took it as someone who is also supporting IFP.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but those were not your orders, your orders were to fetch Sibongele and kill her. Why did you go back ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think he said that his orders were to go fetch Sibongele and a sibling is the word used. I'm not too sure whether the sibling and the sister is being confused.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question. Let me ask you specifically, did your orders include to fetch both Sibongele and her sister?

MR NYETHE: Ben ordered us that we should take both Sibongele and her sister and there were other comrades watching so that Sibongele's sister doesn't escape as well.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now I'll inform you at this stage that Sibongele's sister's name is Doris, Doris Sambo and I will refer to her as Doris as we go along. Now Doris tells me that at that stage she was a member of the ANC. What do you say to that?

MR NYETHE: No I didn't know that.

MR NYETHE: And she further tells me that when you entered her house the first time, that you accused her of being an IFP informer because of the fact that she was Zulu speaking. What do you say to that?

MR NYETHE: We got the information from our commander. We used to stay at the Danger Zone so they used to come and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, would you agree or do you deny that Doris, when you found her in the house, denied that she was a member of the IFP or whatever? Is that the question Mr Swanepoel?

MR NYETHE: She didn't. When we arrived there she was scared, she didn't refuse that she was an IFP member.

MR SWANEPOEL: I'll take it from there Mr Chairman.

We are talking about Doris here, did Doris escape as well?

MR NYETHE: Would you please explain to me if Doris is Sibongele's other name?

CHAIRPERSON: You must listen very carefully, I'm not sure if it's being interpreted properly. Doris is the other person that was shot. It's the sister or the sibling, I'm not too sure.

MR NYETHE: Now I understand.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: She tells her advocate that when you people came there she said certain things about her affiliation. Do you agree with that or don't you agree with that? Or maybe you can repeat your question, it will be better.

MR SWANEPOEL: I will repeat the question for you.

Do you recall Doris telling you when you initially went to the house where you found her, that she was not a member of the IFP?

MR NYETHE: We didn't question her, we just followed the instructions, the commander had done everything. Probably he is the one who asked her that, we didn't question her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now you went a bit fast initially. Can I just get the names again of the people who were with you?

MR NYETHE: Mdmase, Kifuwe, Jango, Vuyisile, Mogoera.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't you go slow please, I'm trying to write it down? Mdmase? The second one was Kifuwe or what was the name?

MR NYETHE: Kifuwe, Mavi, Jango, Doctor, Mogoera, these are the only people I can still remember.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, I note that it's 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.

Was Joseph there?

MR NYETHE: Yes he was there.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right, now who else?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already said he can't remember, maybe if you suggest names he could say yes or no.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chair.

Could you remember anybody else being there?

MR NYETHE: And also Masevin.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now from there after you arrested - you took - you caught Sibongele in another section, you took her back to her house, is that correct? And there you found Doris as well, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And from there you took the two of them. Did you take them to Ben initially?

MR NYETHE: We took them towards Danger Zone and then the commander stopped us on our way and the others continued with them.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right, now who continued with them, who stayed behind and who continued with them?

MR NYETHE: As I've explained, it was myself, Mogoera and Vuyisile and then the rest continued and others, I can't remember their names, it was a large group, people of between 20 and 25 and they continued with them.

MR SWANEPOEL: And they were allowed to continue because they had guns and you had to stay behind because you didn't?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now in any event, at a later stage you received weapons and you proceeded to the danger zone and on your way you met Doctor, is that right?

MR NYETHE: Yes, Siphiwe gave me a gun and on my way I met Doctor and he is the one who explained to me that the comrades were not doing according to the instructions.

MR SWANEPOEL: And he told you that the comrades were raping them, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now did he tell you who was raping them?

MR NYETHE: No he didn't explain, I got scared when I heard the word rape and then I left Doctor then and there and I continued to where they were.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you arrived there were they still busy raping the girls?

MR NYETHE: Yes they were?

MR SWANEPOEL: And who was that?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant?

MR NYETHE: Mdmase and Mafi.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no application for amnesty against rape.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, this is one of those difficult situations which is not strictly relevant to the amnesty application but relevant to reconciliation and knowing the truth. Now Mrs Doris Sambo was fairly emotional when she described her ordeal and she specifically cannot remember everything because of the wounds that she received in the ordeal.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) and that?

MR SWANEPOEL: Ja, my specific instructions from her is also, amongst others, to find out what happened to her sister because she passed out after she was shot and she woke up in hospital. She does not know whether her sister is dead or alive. That's her first objective and also to find out who did this to them. This is very important for her and she's very emotional about it. We sat here till yesterday evening fairly late and it was very difficult to calm her down.

CHAIRPERSON: Well strictly speaking, the reconciliation part of the issue is not the paramount leg of the Amnesty Committee's job, that would have been done in another Committee but I'm going to allow it now seeing as we're busy with a very emotional issue. But I'd appreciate it if we curtail it in terms of details, I mean the fact that a particular person committed rape on a victim is not going to effect the outcome of this application. So to the extent that it may reconcile two people, I'm going to allow it but I'm going to ask you to cut out most of the details please.

MR SWANEPOEL: I appreciate it.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Swanepoel, if he himself was in some way involved in the rape or he stood by and sort of condoned it, then it may reflect on his motivation or his situation or his malice in dealing with the person. I don't know whether other persons applied for amnesty and whether those applying for amnesty might have been the rapists, so I think it's the only witness perhaps you could get this information from in order to oppose other applications if they've applied, I don't know whether they've applied or not applied and to that extent it may be relevant but only for that purpose.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Commissioner, that is exactly the line of cross-examination and the purpose of it, I simply wanted names in order to properly evaluate any other applications that might come before and if there are no applications in order to let Mrs Sambo consider her options from there. As you please Mr Chairman.

Sorry, Mr Nyete, I didn't catch those names. You arrived at the place where the sisters were being held and you saw who raped them. Could you tell us the names again?

MR NYETHE: It was Mdmase and Mavi.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chairperson.

Alright, now you mentioned that you shot at the comrades and then you shot Sibongele in the process. Do you recall where you shot her? Was it one shot?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean where in her body?

MR NYETHE: When I arrived there, I took my gun and I shot and I missed. The second shot, Sibongele's sister got shot, she was closer to me and then the third one I shot Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is where in Doris's body would she have been hit. Wouldn't Doris be able to tell you that Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: She did indeed tell me, I just want to compare Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when we spoke yesterday, I mean the applicant is admitting that he shot. Does it matter whether it was in the toe or the foot?

MR SWANEPOEL: I understand Mr Chairman, I'll leave that line of questioning.

Mr Nyethe, Mrs Sambo tells us that her sister was shot once in the back of the head. Do you recall who did that?

MR NYETHE: What I can remember is that I shot her on her chest. Properly Mdmase, when I told him to finish the job, probably he shot her at the head but I shot her in her chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that now, was that Doris or the deceased who was shot in the chest?

MR NYETHE: Doris.

CHAIRPERSON: You shot - Doris was hit - Doris was the sister? Sibongele's sister?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you shot towards her chest? Correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the question from Advocate Swanepoel is, Sibongele herself, where did you shoot her because his instructions are that there was a shot that penetrated the back of her head. Where would you have shot at her, that is Sibongele herself?

MR NYETHE: If I can remember very well, it's closer to the neck.

CHAIRPERSON: In front or?

MR NYETHE: There was blood so I couldn't see clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she facing you or not immediately before you shot her, Sibongele?

MR NYETHE: At the side.

ADV DE JAGER: When you arrived there they were being raped, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they lying on the ground?

MR NYETHE: Yes Sibongele was lying on the ground and her sister was in the bathroom.

ADV DE JAGER: How far from Sibongele, this bathroom?

MR NYETHE: It's closer, Sibongele was next to the base and then the sister was in the bathroom.

ADV DE JAGER: Now she was lying and you started shooting at the rapists, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: No, when I arrived there I took out my gun and then those guys who were raping them stood up and they were left alone then.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't shoot at them and missed them and accidently shot her, you deliberately shot at her?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct because that was the command that they should be killed, not raped.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes and you had the intention to kill them when you fired the shots?

MR NYETHE: At first I wanted to shoot the comrades because I knew that they were doing something wrong. The instruction didn't go like that but then I realised that I only had four bullets so I realised that I was going to finish the bullets before I kill Sibongele and her sister.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't shoot at the comrades at all?

MR NYETHE: Yes they ran away, the only person who was left was Mdmase and I used all my bullets so I asked Mdmase to finish the job.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then I don't quite understand. As I remember your evidence you said you shot at your comrades, you missed them and that's how Doris got injured. I'm going to take the tea break, you can think about it.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyethe, I asked you to consider that issue that I raised with you before we adjourned. Are you able to explain?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: (s.u.o.) ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Please so.

MR NYETHE: As I've already told you that the comrades, I was prepared to shoot at them because they were doing something wrong, that is why I decided to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: No. Your evidence in chief, you told us well you certainly gave me the impression that you in fact did shoot at your colleagues, missed them, but as a result of those shots, Doris was injured. That's how I understood your evidence, am I wrong?

MR NYETHE: Yes, as I told you before that the firearm I had was loaded with four bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not shoot at your colleagues at all?

MR NYETHE: I shot at them but I missed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now - then I don't understand. How many shots did you aim or was Doris injured with?

MR NYETHE: The first shot missed the comrades and I shot at Doris and I shot at Sibongele and the last bullet was directed to Doris and I left Mdmase to finish up.

CHAIRPERSON: That's only three bullets. Now please explain to us now, did you take aim at your colleagues who were the rapists?

MR NYETHE: With four bullets - I want you to understand this - the first bullet is the one that missed the comrade and the second one is the one that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to that bullet, did it hit the wall or did it injure somebody?

MR NYETHE: Yes it hit the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, the second bullet?

MR NYETHE: The second one hit Doris.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you aiming that at?

MR NYETHE: I was aiming at Doris because the others had gone at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And your third bullet?

MR NYETHE: It went straight to Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you aiming that bullet at?

MR NYETHE: I was aiming at Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: And your fourth bullet?

MR NYETHE: I aimed at Doris again.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't injure anybody as a result of missing your colleagues? The injuries that you caused were the result of direct attempts to kill the two people. Do I understand you correctly?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SWANEPOEL: (continues) Thank you Mr Chair.

When you - after you discharged your firearm and all your bullets were spent and you left the premises, as far as you could see was either Doris or Sibongele still alive?

MR NYETHE: They were lying down on the floor, I just saw Sibongele moving a little bit, that is why I had to tell Mdmase to finish her off.

MR SWANEPOEL: And he then entered the premises with an AK47 and you didn't see what happened from there, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes, I did not see what happened thereafter, I just heard the gunshots but I was on my way out and I did not come back to look, to see what was happening.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you ever visit or go back to the house of Sibongele afterwards?

MR NYETHE: No, I never visited the place again. I went to Commander Ben.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you went to Commander Ben, what did you report to him?

MR NYETHE: I told him about everything what happened there at the place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you tell him about the rapes?

MR NYETHE: Yes I told him.

MR SWANEPOEL: And as a result of that were people punished?

MR NYETHE: Yes all the people who were there were punished.

MR SWANEPOEL: As far as you know did any of the comrades who were with you ever go back to the house of Sibongele and damage it?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Apologies Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: As in what type of damage.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, my instructions are that the house was structurally damaged and I'm sure whether it was burnt or just vandalised, also the furniture was damaged inside and stolen.

CHAIRPERSON: Stolen?

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please, we aren't sure of course how that happened, Sibongele was dead and Doris was in hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're not sure when it happened or whatever, okay fine.

When you left, did you leave with a group of people after that, even the rapist, when you left that house where Sibongele was raped?

MR SWANEPOEL: The only person that I left behind was Mdmase because the other comrades had run away at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you left that house was there any damage that you could see to the building? Maybe broken windows or broken roof or something like that, or any damage?

MR NYETHE: Are you referring to the house where Sibongele and the other lady was shot?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get that clear, as I understand they were taken and raped at a house in Section F, that is not Sibongele's house, that's not the house of Sibongele. The question is, remember you went to her house first then she ran away, now that house from which she ran away, when you left that house did you leave with all these people, your colleagues?

MR NYETHE: Yes, we left altogether. Now when you left that house that day at that time were there any windows broken or roof broken or any walls affected?

MR NYETHE: The house where Sigongele was shot at was vandalised, everything was just broken.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) in Section F?

MR NYETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was that?

MR NYETHE: I don't know whose house was it because we did not know the people from Unit F because all the people from Unit F had already gone.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm talking about Sibongele's house where you first went to look for her. Was the furniture broken there or windows broken or what, or taken? Any furniture taken do you know?

MR NYETHE: No I don't have knowledge about that house.

CHAIRPERSON: If someone had carried furniture away there when you people left would you have seen it? One of your colleagues had taken furniture from the house at which you first looked for Sibongele, surely you would have seen your colleague, one of your colleagues carrying the furniture?

MR NYETHE: I did not see anyone carrying anything because most of the time we used to stay there at Unit F, that was regarded as a danger zone, we did not know anything about that place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. You have applied for amnesty for a murder and an attempted murder, is that correct?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Is that the murder of Sibongele and the attempted murder of Doris?

MR NYETHE: The shooting of Sibongele and the death of her sibling.

MR SWANEPOEL: Well it seems that Doris is still alive. I'm asking you whose murder and whose attempted murder are you applying for amnesty for.

MR NYETHE: Sibongele's death.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, how do you know that Sibongele is dead?

MR NYETHE: As far as I know Sibongele is not dead, she came back to the section and he met with the Committee after the elections. She is the person that I used to see in that section.

CHAIRPERSON: So why are you applying for her death then, for her murder?

MR NYETHE: I applied for amnesty concerning her sister or brother and the attempted murder on Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's common cause that Sibongele is dead and Doris her sister is not dead.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, if I might intervene, we don't know if Sibongele is dead or not, that's the gist of my question. We know that Doris is alive.

CHAIRPERSON: The purpose of my question is that then why does he make the application if he's not certain whether she's dead or not?

MR SWANEPOEL: Of course, I would just like to know if she's dead, how does he know that and what the situation is.

ADV DE JAGER: I now understood and kindly tell me whether I'm right, that afterwards you've seen Sibongele again? Is that right?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes that is correct, that was after the violence had subsided, after there was peace in the section.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you see her?

MR NYETHE: I saw her in the streets, she was passing by next to the shops.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you sure it's the same person that you kidnapped and that you shot at, that you've seen passing in the street again afterwards?

MR NYETHE: Yes I am sure, it's not the sibling, it's not Doris that you've seen afterwards?

MR NYETHE: No, I saw Sibongele.

ADV DE JAGER: So then there can't be any murder of Sibongele because she's still alive?

MR NYETHE: Yes, Sibongele's still alive and all I know is that her sister passed away.

ADV DE JAGER: No, but her sister is here. One of the sisters passed away it seems but according to the names given, the sister who is still alive is Doris and Sibongele vanished, they don't know whether she's dead or alive?

CHAIRPERSON: The person you saw near the shops sometime after the elections, can you see her in the audience?

MR NYETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you point her out for us?

MR NYETHE: It's the lady sitting on the third row with a shirt with roses, red and white roses.

CHAIRPERSON: It's that lady as you know as Sibongele Ligela?

MR NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, my instructing attorney has now taken instructions from who we know as Doris. Our instructions are that the person - her sister who died's name is Francisca and there were only two sisters. She is known as both Doris and Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, on page 168, Section 9(b), attempted murder and I don't know if you want to be too strict on the matter, says that application is made for attempted murder of Sibongele and the murder unknown I suppose?

MR SWANEPOEL: I won't take that too far, I can understand that confusion might exist in the mind of the applicants. What I do want to establish is whether the other sister is dead. If that is the case ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But I think Mr Swanepoel, the confusion was in your mind, you created the impression that Doris is still alive and that the other sister Sibongele is dead but it's turned out otherwise. Let's not dwell on it, we know there's the one sister and the one sitting there is Doris.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's ask you this then, one of the sisters is sitting here in front, what happened to the other sister?

MR NYETHE: The person that I saw alive is Sibongele. We left her sister there, I don't know what happened to her sister because people would come and take the dead bodies there, stability unit would come and collect all the dead bodies. I don't even know what happened thereafter because we did not go back to the scene again.

CHAIRPERSON: He is unable to tell you Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: I've go no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Just on your commander Ben Mashinini, is he still alive?

MR NYETHE: No he passed away.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, I assume the misunderstanding has been clarified and there's no need for me to further clarify it? Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED