MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I would like to call the next applicant Mr M T Mvelase.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvelase, what language would you prefer to use?
MR MVELASE: Zulu.
T MVELASE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Mvelase, you heard the evidence given today by Mr Sigudu, you also filled out an application for amnesty in December of 1996 for which you then want to apply for amnesty. Could you just start by very briefly telling this Commission what happened on that particular day of the incident.
MR MVELASE: On the 3rd of December it so happened that we went to rob and we killed unintentionally.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, you say that you went to rob, did you act on instruction from anyone?
MR MVELASE: Yes, we were following instructions that had come from Wiseman.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, are you a member of or affiliated with any political party?
MR MVELASE: Yes, that is correct.
MR CLAASSEN: Can you just explain which party and in which capacity.
MR MVELASE: I am a member of the IFP.
MR CLAASSEN: At the time of the commission of this offence were you a member of the IFP at that stage and what was your capacity then?
MR MVELASE: I was as I still am, a member of the IFP.
MR CLAASSEN: Were you a written-in card carrying member or just a supporter?
MR MVELASE: I did not have any position.
MR CLAASSEN: You also lived at that stage with Mr Sigudu in Dube Hostel, is that correct?
MR MVELASE: Yes, that is correct, we resided in the hostel but not in the same house, we were not sharing accommodation.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, you indicated that you received an instruction from a Mr Wiseman, did you know him prior to this incident, and in what capacity did you know him?
MR MVELASE: I knew Wiseman as a member occupying a position which I did not quite know well. He presented himself as somebody who had a position within the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: When did he present himself in that fashion, on the day of the murder, or sometime before that or what?
MR MVELASE: It was before the murder. He used to attend all the meetings that we had, that is IFP meetings. He used to organise quite a lot.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, you have just indicated that you acted on an instruction given by this Mr Wiseman, could you just carefully explain to the court, to the Committee what this instruction entailed, what was decided?
MR MVELASE: The instruction was that we should go out and rob, the instruction was to go out and rob the money, which would in turn be used to further the aims of the IFP.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, this plan that you are referring to, or this instruction, was it a plan that was planned beforehand, there was a specific plan which was to be followed?
MR MVELASE: Yes, there was a plan.
MR CLAASSEN: And you knew beforehand what this plan entailed?
MR MVELASE: Yes, the plan was that we should go out and rob, get hold of some money to further the aims and meet the needs of the IFP.
CHAIRPERSON: That’s all very well, but tell us, what are the details of this plan, were you going to rob a bank or a person or a van or what?
MR MVELASE: The plan was that we should go and rob that lady of her money or the money, and bring the money back and hand this money over to Wiseman who would hand it over to others within the leadership, his co-leaders.
CHAIRPERSON: A plan. When was this plan discussed?
MR MVELASE: If I still remember very well, it was at the end of the month, that is the end of the month of November, it could have been the 30th.
CHAIRPERSON: That was a few days before the actual incident?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So, in this discussion you knew that this particular lady was going to be the target?
MR MVELASE: Yes, that is when we learnt.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know this lady before?
MR MVELASE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you know which lady it would be?
MR MVELASE: We discussed this by way of planning, so that one of us, Sampson Manqele had to go to the place to sort of reconnoitre, and he came back to report to us and said we could then go.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that place not a place where Wiseman used to work?
MR MVELASE: I don’t know whether he was once employed there.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Mvelase, before you got to the point that Wiseman gave the instruction you said that it was to be done for a specific reason, what was this and why was this decided?
MR MVELASE: Would you please repeat the question.
MR CLAASSEN: Why did you want to go and rob this money?
MR MVELASE: The intention was to meet the needs of the IFP.
ADV SIGODI: So do you know who Wiseman was going to give the money to?
MR MVELASE: No. He is the one who knew.
ADV SIGODI: But did you not ask him?
MR MVELASE: On asking him, he indicated that he was going to pass it on to other leaders.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mvelase, this money was never given as you say it was intended, why not?
MR MVELASE: The reason is because we did not get the money as we intended, instead the money was left at the scene of the crime.
DR TSOTSI: Just a moment, excuse my interruption there. To whom was Wiseman going, to which leaders was he going to give this money, do you know?
MR MVELASE: He was to hand this money over to other leaders within the Dube Hostel.
DR TSOTSI: Who are they, I want to get their names.
MR MVELASE: The names include Mr Hlongwane, Ndlovo, and many others, some of whom have since passed away.
ADV SIGODI: Did Mr Kanyele tell you who had given him the orders, where he got his orders from?
MR MVELASE: No he did not say.
ADV SIGODI: And you did not see it necessary to ask him?
MR MVELASE: When he came up with this idea, I readily accepted because I wanted as well to meet the needs of the IFP.
ADV SIGODI: Did you know that the IFP had a military wing?
MR MVELASE: No, I did not know that.
ADV SIGODI: What reason did you have to follow the instructions of Mr Kanyele?
MR MVELASE: I perceived him as one of the members of the IFP, that is the reason I acted on his instructions.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, but he was an ordinary member as far you were concerned, isn’t it?
MR MVELASE: Yes, he was a member, because he was an organiser, very active.
ADV SIGODI: But he had no authority over you, did he?
MR MVELASE: He did have authority as a member of the IFP.
ADV SIGODI: What would have happened to you if you had not listened to him? What would the organisation have done to you if you had not listened to Mr Kanyele?
MR MVELASE: I would not know, but I don’t think something would have happened to us because that which we did was something we agreed with.
ADV SIGODI: I am saying, if you had not agreed to follow Mr Kanyele’s instructions, what would have happened to you? Is there anything that the organisation could have done to you?
MR MVELASE: No, I don’t think the organisation would have done something because I don’t think the organisation knew about this.
ADV SIGODI: So at the time you did not think that the organisation knew about this so what reason did you have be believe that Mr Kanyele had authority over you?
MR MVELASE: I believed that he had authority because he was active as an organiser within the IFP, deeply involved with the IFP.
CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn’t the IFP’s policy to rob and kill people, isn’t it?
MR MVELASE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: How were you going to explain to the IFP where this money came from and this murder?
MR MVELASE: The one person who was to make the explanation was Wiseman himself.
CHAIRPERSON: You, as a member of the IFP would also have to answer isn’t it? You brought the IFP to disrepute.
MR MVELASE: That is correct.
INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)
MR MVELASE: May the question please be repeated.
CHAIRPERSON: Can the witness not get a permanent mike that is on all the time? Just press that button, but don’t press it all the time just leave it like that.
How were you going to explain to the IFP that you committed all these crimes in its name, for its benefit, but nonetheless against its policy?
MR MVELASE: I was going to apologise very strongly to the IFP because yes, it was not their policy that people be robbed.
CHAIRPERSON: So why embark on the robbery then, if you know the IFP is not going to like this? Why commit it?
MR MVELASE: It is because the needs of the IFP were such that I personally wanted to meet them such as donating when we were going to rallies and even in the event of the death of one of our members.
CHAIRPERSON: How were you going to explain to the IFP that you did something contrary to the policy of the IFP? Why commit the robbery when you know the IFP is going to say "we don’t want this money, our policy is not to rob and to murder"? You knew that was going to happen, why do you then commit the crime?
MR MVELASE: That’s the reason why I am before this Committee, to say that I am here because I broke the policies of the IFP.
CHAIRPERSON: No, we are not here to excuse you for breaking the IFP policies, that the IFP must do. I want to know from you, why did you commit these crimes, that’s what I want to know.
MR MVELASE: I committed the crimes in the name of the IFP because I wanted to meet the needs of the IFP.
CHAIRPERSON: But you knew the IFP is not going to accept it, they would punish you, if nothing else. You knew that.
MR MVELASE: I was going to apologise very strongly to the IFP for violating their policies as much as I am apologising now.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you decided, you were going to do something against the policy of the IFP and you would apologise for it? Is that what you say? That was part of the plan, do I understand you correctly?
MR MVELASE: No, that was not part of the plan but this was Wiseman’s idea and he is one who could explain in detail in case we were questioned about it. I personally was prepared to undertake an apology for myself.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was that lady killed?
MR MVELASE: She was killed by mistake, a mistake that was committed by Sampson Manqele.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not have the intention to kill her?
MR MVELASE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
ADV SIGODI: So, do you know how many arms or ammunition the IFP had at the hostel, did you have any knowledge about that?
MR MVELASE: No, I did not have that knowledge.
ADV SIGODI: Then why did you see the need to go and rob in order to get money to buy arms if you did not even know how many arms the IFP had in the hostel.
MR MVELASE: It was a way, or should I say I personally did not have a firearm, for example, a firearm which I could use in the event of a conflict breaking out.
ADV SIGODI: But you did not know how many arms that the IFP had, maybe the IFP had an abundance of arms. What reason did you have to believe that the IFP needed arms?
MR MVELASE: Others, or should I say some of the people who accompanied us to the robbery did not have firearms and that is one of the reasons that made me believe that there was a need for firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: But you took that decision to rob that lady before you saw the arms.
MR MVELASE: Would you please repeat the question.
CHAIRPERSON: You say that when you went on this venture to rob this lady, not all of you people had firearms. That was proof to you that there was a need to effect or do this robbery so that you could buy more arms. You recall saying so?
MR MVELASE: No, that is not so.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) that when you went to rob, some of you didn’t have firearms and that showed you that there was a need for firearms amongst the ranks of the IFP, didn’t you say so?
MR MVELASE: I am saying that most of the members of the IFP did not have firearms, that is why I am saying that I cannot testify as to the amount of firearms that the IFP had.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you or did you not testify that the day you committed this robbery not all the participants in the robbery were armed, do you recall saying so?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That indicated to you that there was a shortage of firearms amongst the IFP members, not so? That’s what you testified?
MR MVELASE: I am saying some did not have firearms.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall saying that the fact that not all had firearms showed you that not all IFP members had firearms and that you required more firearms. Did you not say so?
MR MVELASE: Please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: I am telling you, you said so a couple of minutes ago, that when you went out to rob this lady, not all of you were armed and that indicated to you that there was a necessity to commit this robbery because not all people belonging to the IFP were equipped with firearms. That’s what you said. All I want to know is do you recall saying so?
MR MVELASE: You see, the majority of IFP people did not have firearms that I would have been able to see whether they had many or less, so I had no idea of that.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just a further matter.
Mr Mvelase, can you just very, very briefly, what exactly did you do when the deceased was killed, what was your role in all this?
MR MVELASE: The role I played was to point at the person in the victim’s company with a firearm, a certain man, a white man. As I was still pointing at him with my gun, I heard a gunshot immediately that I thought was shot by one of the people in my company because it was clear that that could have been the possibility and I saw a person lying down on the floor and immediately, I fled.
CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly that you were also armed at that time?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me just clarify something, maybe I’m not hearing properly. Earlier in your testimony you said you were not equipped with a firearm, did you not say so?
MR MVELASE: No, I don’t recall saying that.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair, if I may, I believe if I understood the applicant correctly he said that
"Some of the people in our company was not ..."
I also understood it that he never said that he himself was not armed, but he said:
"I noticed that some of the people accompanying us was not armed"
... maybe specifically implying that he was indeed armed. Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Mvelase, is there anything else you could have done in that particular situation?
MR MVELASE: One possibility - oh yes, there was something I could have done.
MR CLAASSEN: What do you mean by that?
MR MVELASE: I could have got myself temporary jobs and worked part time, get a wage for the day, something like that. That could have been one other way but that was not quite clear.
DR TSOTSI: Mr Mvelase, do I understand you to say that you were the first to pull out your gun and point at this white man?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
DR TSOTSI: So, and the others followed, the others then also pulled out their firearms?
MR MVELASE: Sampson was the next one.
DR TSOTSI: Yes, and you actually saw Sampson pointing his firearm at the woman, is that right?
MR MVELASE: Yes that is correct.
DR TSOTSI: Now, if you did not want to kill the woman, why didn’t you stop him?
MR MVELASE: It wasn’t that easy because it was unexpected.
DR TSOTSI: I don’t understand that. I mean you had your firearm already out and there he was, you saw him pointing a firearm, surely you could have stopped him then, either by holding his hand or putting away his firearm or ... What is it that stopped you from stopping him from using the firearm?
MR MVELASE: As I explained, that wouldn’t have been that easy, I was also shocked by that act.
DR TSOTSI: What was the difficulty about it. If you saw him pointing a firearm at the lady before he shot her, weren’t you near enough to have grasped the gun from him or to have dropped him?
MR MVELASE: I was shocked and suddenly I heard this gunshot and he had already shot at the woman. And I must highlight the fact that that was not part of the plan or the intention, we did not have that intention to kill.
ADV SIGODI: Where was Mr Kanyele on this day?
MR MVELASE: We had left him at Dube.
ADV SIGODI: In other words, he comes up with the idea and plan and then when you actually go to do the robbery he is not there.
MR MVELASE: He had already indicated to us and showed us Sampson Manqele, that is why he did not have to be present.
ADV SIGODI: Why didn’t he come?
MR MVELASE: I have no idea why.
MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mvelase, did you stand to gain anything personally from what you attempted that particular day?
MR MVELASE: Wiseman would have been the one to administer that as to whether I benefit from this or not, it lay entirely in his discretion, but how he was to further the mission.
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, I want to ask him certain questions about a letter to be found on page 31 of the bundle. I think it only fair that I draw your attention to that.
MR CLAASSEN: I’ve seen the letter, Mr Chair, I believe it’s in the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are aware of the letter? Okay.
Do you, or did you live at the time in the Province of Gauteng, as it is known now?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Katha Ndlovo? He is the secretary, the Provincial Youth Secretary of the IFP?
MR MVELASE: Yes, I know him.
CHAIRPERSON: Does he know you?
MR MVELASE: I don’t know whether he knows me or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Peter Magwasa, IFP Regional Office?
MR MVELASE: You mean Peter Magwasa? No, I don’t remember him.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you a card-carrying member of the IFP?
MR MVELASE: I did not have a card.
CHAIRPERSON: Then how did you obtain membership?
ADV SIGODI: Sorry just to clarify, I don’t think we have quite the same as the interpreter. Can you just ask him again if he was a card-carrying member of the IFP.
Were you a card-carrying member of the IFP?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a card-carrying member of the IFP?
MR MVELASE: Not now, I don’t have any card now, it got lost when I was arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a card-carrying member of the IFP?
MR MVELASE: As for now I don’t have the card anymore, it has since disappeared. It got lost, in other words, when I was arrested or when I got arrested.
ADV SIGODI: Tell me, how was your target identified when you were planning this? How did you identify your target?
MR MVELASE: The person who was enlightened about the place we were going to was Sampson Manqele, he was the one who had a better understanding of this whole matter.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, but who had the inside information as to who would be carrying the money and from where, at what time and all that, who brought that information to you?
MR MVELASE: Wiseman Kanyele had that information.
ADV SIGODI: So what did he tell you about this lady?
MR MVELASE: He told us that this lady often goes to the bank to fetch some money.
ADV SIGODI: Did he say where she worked?
MR MVELASE: Yes, he did explain.
ADV SIGODI: What did he say?
MR MVELASE: He said this lady works in Parktown North, although I don’t quite remember the details as to where she was working.
ADV SIGODI: Did he tell you how he got that information about her?
MR MVELASE: No, I don’t remember him saying that much.
CHAIRPERSON: You know I Mr Mvelase, I ...(end of Side A of tape)... in which he states that he doesn’t know you, he brings into question your membership of the IFP. What have you got to say about it?
MR MVELASE: No, I don’t necessarily dispute that or disagree with him in that regard because it's quite a number of us as are members of the IFP, so he will not know each and every member of the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me read what he says
"I, Katha Ndlovo, Provincial Youth Secretary of the IFP and Peter Magwasa, IFP Regional Offices have investigated the matter. The IFP Dube Hostel branch ...(indistinct) Mr Petrus Hlongwane, Mr Khumalo and Induna, Mr Zibokakwe Xaba, said they don’t know these people (which includes you). We, as IFP leaders, we don’t send people out to act on crime and take money of the people, we believe in non-violent strategy. We also believe in a peaceful solution. Our policy, as a party, is open to everyone and based on peaceful manner.
It is signed by Mr Ndlovo."
He is speaking about the following:
Mr Kanyele, Mr Mvelase - that’s you Manqele, Sigudu and Mzolo. Have you got any comment about that?
MR MVELASE: This is why I said to you we are quite many in IFP, so he would not know each and every member in the IFP organisation. I don’t think if you were to ask him that question he will be able to identify each and every member of the IFP and I wonder if you canvassed that with him.
CHAIRPERSON: You wonder what?
MR MVELASE: Were they ever asked as to whether they are aware of all the members of IFP in the Dube Hostel.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, they were asked about you six or five, you five people. They were specifically asked about them and that’s why this letter was written. It includes you. Have you got any comments? You asked if he was canvassed. He was asked and it appears that they made a specific enquiry and investigation about your membership with the others and that is what they wrote to the TRC.
MR MVELASE: I maintain the fact that he will not know all of us. In fact, all of the IFP members will not know each and every individual. I know that what we did was not the policy or did not conform with the policy of the IFP. This is why we are here to ask for amnesty.
DR TSOTSI: Mr Mvelase, you told us that you were a card-carrying member of the IFP. If you are a card carrying member of the IFP, presumably your name must appear on some record of membership for IFP, and there would be no difficulty in the leaders checking from their records and finding out whether or not you are a member of IFP, don’t you agree?
MR MVELASE: Well their records, I would like to question their records. They date way back to which year? The list of the members of the IFP, their records containing the members of the IFP, dates, way back to which year?
ADV SIGODI: Alright, when were you given your card?
MR MVELASE: I got my card in 1991.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Hlongwane?
MR MVELASE: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Does he stay in the Dube Hostel?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: It’s the same hostel you say you were staying, and for which you were robbing people to arm the residents of that hostel?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane will know if you were a member of the IFP, not so?
MR MVELASE: He won’t know all of us including Hlongwane himself, he won’t know all of us.
CHAIRPERSON: You are saying that you have so many IFP members in that hostel that people won’t be able to say who are IFP members or are not?
MR MVELASE: Well, there are people who are popular and well-known. Like myself, an ordinary person, who did not feature prominently some activities in the past, who would not be known as such.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this your first notorious activity?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
ADV SIGODI: How long had you been staying at the hostel before you committed this crime?
MR MVELASE: I arrived at the hostel in 1990, to the day of this incident in 1993 on the 30th.
ADV SIGODI: Were you employed at this time?
MR MVELASE: I had a lot of temporary jobs.
ADV SIGODI: I heard you when you were asked what would you have done differently and your answer was, when you were asked by your own legal representative, I heard you say that you would try to get more temporary jobs. What difference would it have made to the robbery if you did not have a temporary job?
MR MVELASE: The difference would have been that - you see, the money I obtained from such part time jobs wasn’t that much, it only provided a plate or a meal for that particular day but did not stretch beyond that and to buy clothes for myself.
ADV SIGODI: Did you expect to be paid for this job that you did or this robbery that you committed for the IFP, or to be remunerated? Did you expect any form of remuneration?
MR MVELASE: What I expected was to do this to strengthen the organisation and to further its mission.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with your questioning, Mr Claassen?
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I have.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any more questions, I don’t know if there’s any left?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: I have a few Mr Chairperson.
Mr Mvelase, a few questions. On page 7 of the bundle 10(a) of your application, you say that:
"Although the murder wasn’t right, the intention was not to kill."
Is that correct?
MR MVELASE: That is correct.
MS THABETE: Exactly what was the intention?
MR MVELASE: The intention was to try and rob so that we can meet the needs of the IFP.
MS THABETE: My next question following to that, why then didn’t you act according to your intentions?
MR MVELASE: It is for that reason that I am saying that it was a mistake on the part of Sampson Manqele when he did something to which we had not agreed or planned.
MS THABETE: Did you discuss the incident thereafter as a group that had planned the robbery?
MR MVELASE: I asked him, that was when we were now in prison, and I wanted to know from him why he did that and he said it was a mistake. He could not answer as to how it happened.
MS THABETE: When you were discussing this did he tell you why he shot Miss Govender when you had agreed that you should just rob her?
MR MVELASE: He said it was a very, very big mistake on his part, which mistake he too could not explain.
CHAIRPERSON: I must be quite honest here, I find something very strange. You people don’t have any intention of killing anybody but yet you arm yourselves going on this robbery, what were you going to do with the arms?
MR MVELASE: The firearms were to be used to scare off or frighten the targets, to scare them off so that they could give us the money that we wanted. It was not our intention to kill any one of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was there ammunition in it, and why was there more than one gun?
MR MVELASE: I would say that we did not concern ourselves with having to use firearms that did not have ammunition, but basically our intention was not to go there to kill.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer? What did you think was going to happen? What would have happened if this lady resisted?
MR MVELASE: I think that because there were many of us, there were four of us, there was no need really to kill her. Yes, this happened as an error because she too was not armed. I did not see any arm in her possession. Really it was not our intention to kill her, it just happened, it was a mistake. Those were not our intentions. That is why I am saying it was a very big mistake.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvelase, you are not answering my question. What did you think was going to happen to this woman if she resisted the robbery?
MR MVELASE: Because we were many, there were four of us, I don’t think that she could have resisted or refused to give us the money because we had firearms pointed at her.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking what you think, I am asking what would have happened to her had she said "no you can’t have the money" and resisted, or produced a firearm herself? What would have happened to her?
MR MVELASE: Yes, that was possible but I don’t think that she could have resisted after having firearms pointed at her.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to my question? Would you like me to repeat the question one more time?
MR MVELASE: Yes, I think the answer suffices.
MS THABETE: On page 8 of the bundle number 11(a) of your application, there is a question which asks who gave the order and in your application you said
"Not applicable"
Can you explain why you did not write Wiseman’s name and can you also explain why you never mentioned Wiseman in your application.
MR MVELASE: I think that had questions pertaining to Wiseman been raised, I would have answered them.
MS THABETE: Sorry, I don’t understand that answer, can you repeat it please?
MR MVELASE: I am saying had they asked me questions about Wiseman maybe I could have included his name.
MS THABETE: But, Mr Mvelase, the question asks you who gave you an order. You were asked the same question today and you said Wiseman Kanyele. My question to you is why didn’t you answer like that before in your application, why are you only saying that today, now? That’s my question.
MR MVELASE: I would like to know as to which statement you are referring to and who took it from me and when?
MS THABETE: It’s on the application, Mr Mvelase, which you have signed at the end, page 8 of the bundle.
MR MVELASE: ...(no English interpretation)
MS THABETE: Why not?
MR MVELASE: I don’t think I would have failed to answer such an important question.
MS THABETE: Because it asks you who gave the order and then at number (b) it asks you the name of the person who gave you an order, why couldn’t you give the name of Wiseman?
MR MVELASE: It is for that reason that I am saying that I don’t think that I could have failed to answer such an important question.
MS THABETE: I won’t follow this question anymore. My next question to you is, exactly what was your role during the whole robbery incident?
MR MVELASE: My role was to point the firearm at these two people and rob them.
MS THABETE: What did you do during the robbery incident?
MR MVELASE: I pointed a firearm at this white male and Manqele had his firearm pointed to the female, and this female, if I still remember very well, had I think about two bags in her possession. Yes, there were two bags of money.
MS THABETE: So what are you applying for amnesty for?
MR MVELASE: I am seeking amnesty for taking part in this robbery, attempted robbery and the death of the deceased and I am seeking amnesty from the IFP as a whole for violating their policies and I am asking for forgiveness from the entire South African population.
MS THABETE: Are you aware that you were charged with attempted murder of Mr Rupert Colleen and you were actually convicted for it?
MR MVELASE: Yes.
MS THABETE: Would you say this was part of the plan? How would you justify this politically?
MR MVELASE: ...(no English interpretation)
MS THABETE: No, attempted murder of Mr Rupert Colleen.
MR MVELASE: It was within our plans because I was to point this firearm at this person. He could not have easily given the money to us, I was to point the firearm at him.
MS THABETE: Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen have you got any questions?
MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, no questions from my side Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
