CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?
MR MOHLABA: Certainly. I'm ready to proceed on the matter of Mhlakaza.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us go ahead.
MR MOHLABA: Mr Mhlakaza will also want to testify in Xhosa.
MZOLISI B. MHLAKAZA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Mr Mhlakaza, you were born on the 15th September 1966 in Transkei, is that correct?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct, Sir.
MR MOHLABA: Are you married and do you have children of your own?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: You are applying for an amnesty for an offence of murder, assault and malicious damage to property, is that correct?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And the basis on which you apply for this amnesty is that your offences were committed with a political objective, is that correct?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: And these offences were committed on or about the 7th July 1991, is that correct?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct.
MR MOHLABA: Were you during that period a member of a political organisation or any recognised institution?
MR MHLAKAZA: I was an ANC follower.
MR MOHLABA: And where were you staying during this period.
MR MHLAKAZA: I was staying in Chicken Farm in Kliptown.
MR MOHLABA: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Self Defence Units never existed that time, not of the kind that we know now.
MR MHLAKAZA: They were not formally established but because of the violence that was there at that time the community came together in a meeting and we decided to take means of defending the community ourselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Within your confines of where you were living?
MR MHLAKAZA: Yes Sir, where I was living.
MR MOHLABA: With respect to this offence of murder, did you know the victim before he was attacked and killed?
MR MHLAKAZA: I did not know the deceased before.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee how this offence was committed and everything that happened?
MR MHLAKAZA: In 1991 on July 7th we were patrolling on a Saturday. We were patrolling since the 6th on a Saturday until 2 o'clock. Whilst we were sitting in watch when normally the disruptions would start, we saw a police Casspir which was far in the distance and it stood next to some trees in some open veld in ...(indistinct) and some people alighted from that Casspir and when we watched we wanted to see which direction were they going to take these people and they were coming in our direction towards Chicken Farm. They split into groups and went different directions and they entered the squatter camps and that is when we whistled for alert so that people should be aware that trouble has started and as soon as they arrived there were gunshots and we counter-attacked as well. We shot back. One of them who was trying to run away, they entered the squatter camp area and we gave chase and we found one who was trying to hide in one shack. We took him out and stabbed him. Before stabbing him we asked him as to "on which side are you because we have just seen you coming running.?" He did not deny, he just simply told us the truth that he belongs to the IFP and that led him to be killed. Thereafter we saw some shadows in some shack and we just ignored those shadows but when we saw that these people running into another house, we broke the door and we found a couple and we asked this man "you can see that people are outside, there's a fight on, how come are you indoors because when trouble starts all men must go outside to fight?" and that is where an argument started and he climbed on the bed because he became scared and my accomplice asked him to get off the bed and he thought, my accomplice thought this person was trying to fight and he stabbed him in the face and we went out to continue with our patrols. We overthrew the other group and until in the morning.
MR MOHLABA: Did you know where the deceased was staying or did you gain that - or after the fact did you ultimately gain knowledge of where he stays?
MR MHLAKAZA: I did not know where the deceased stayed.
CHAIRPERSON: Malicious injury to property that you apply for, is that the breaking into that house where that gentleman was stabbed?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct, Sir. The breaking down of the door.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there an address or some identifiable feature to which we can refer to this house?
MR MOHLABA: In the Chicken Farm some of the shacks did not have numbers.
CHAIRPERSON: So this house was on the Chicken Farm as well?
MR MHLAKAZA: Yes it was also on Chicken Farm.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MOHLABA: Do you know a person called Elliot Fudamele?
MR MHLAKAZA: Yes I know him.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain who is Elliot Fudamele?
MR MHLAKAZA: Elliot Fudamele is one of our comrades who left because of the conflict that was there at the time and he went to stay in Orange Farm.
MR MOHLABA: I refer the Committee to an affidavit by Fudamele. I'm not certain as to the correct page number in the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: I've read it. What's the purpose of this affidavit?
MR MOHLABA: The purpose of the affidavit, Chair, is just to confirm that the applicant was in fact at that area, he was known in that area during that period, for what it's worth.
CHAIRPERSON: And that he conducted a watch over the Chicken Farm to avoid attacks.
MR MOHLABA: And that will conclude the applicant's testimony.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions Ms Thabete?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE: Just one Mr Chair.
How were you arrested, how did it come about that you were arrested?
MR MHLAKAZA: When we saw that these conflicts has come down I told my friend that I have to go to work tomorrow and I have to sleep early so that I should be at work on time. My friend was still there. We were arrested because of the lady whose door we damaged because this also happened in front of her shack.
CHAIRPERSON: What is that lady's name?
MR MHLAKAZA: I later learned in court that she was called Normakepu.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that her first name or surname?
MR MHLAKAZA: It's her first name.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what her surname is?
MR MHLAKAZA: I have forgotten the surname.
CHAIRPERSON: Can she be found on this Chicken Farm?
MR MHLAKAZA: That I'm not sure of, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you in prison at the moment?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct, Sir, I'm in prison.
CHAIRPERSON: What were you sentenced?
MR MHLAKAZA: I was sentenced to 26 and a half months.
CHAIRPERSON: Months?
MR MHLAKAZA: 26 and a half years, I beg your pardon.
MS THABETE: Okay, the assault that you were convicted of, is the assault on the man you found in the shack with the couple? The assault that you were convicted of, is it the assault which was done by your accomplice in the shack where you found this couple, this man sitting on the bed?
MR MHLAKAZA: That is correct.
MS THABETE: And was this man also part of the Chicken Farm?
MR MHLAKAZA: Yes, he was one of our comrades who was staying there in Chicken Farm.
MS THABETE: Now what political objective did you seek to apply by assaulting him or what political objective would you have obtained by assaulting one of your own?
MR MHLAKAZA: When he alighted the bed as I have said, my friend thought that he was retaliating and my friend had a knife and he stabbed him in the forehead.
CHAIRPERSON: When were you sentenced?
MR MHLAKAZA: In 1992 on the 10th September.
CHAIRPERSON: And what sentence did you get for the assault?
MR MHLAKAZA: Two years for the assault.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you already completed that sentence?
MR MHLAKAZA: Yes I've already completed that sentence.
MS THABETE: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE
CHAIRPERSON: The same questions can be asked of the malicious injury to property. What political objective would you have sought to achieve by kicking down the door?
MR MHLAKAZA: What made us break the door down was due to the fact that we were not sure that the person who really inside this house was one of the people that we were chasing and we asked them to open the door and they refused to and that is why we broke down the door.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you are excused.
MR MHLAKAZA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, have you got any submissions to make, we only want you if you want to. We only need submissions on the question of assault.
MR MOHLABA: I've got no submission, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any submissions?
MS THABETE: No submissions Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will take time to make a decision on this issue and it will be published in due course.
Is that the roll for the day?
MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chair it is. I would suggest that we remove from the roll the matter of Mr Gerane.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja well, before we get to that - Mr Mohlaba, what has happened to that other client of yours?
MR MOHLABA: It's Mr Gerane, I did not see him, he did not show up and he is outside, he is not in custody and the last time he appeared it was suggested by the presiding officers that if certain information could be found this matter could be treated as a chamber matter and ever since I could not get contact with him.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what do you propose to do, it's after all your client?
MR MOHLABA: That the matter be struck off the roll.
CHAIRPERSON: Has he been informed that the matter is coming up today?
MR MOHLABA: He was not formally informed and I had a discussion with Ms Thabete that because there was a difficulty in finding him that I will convey the message through to him and through my contact I did convey message but I don't have a confirmation that he was in fact advised of this.
CHAIRPERSON: Well then we can't strike the matter from the roll because he has not been formally informed. I think the matter must then be postponed sine die in order to give the TRC an opportunity to contact him. Okay, so be it, that matter is then postponed sine die. What about tomorrow's matters? We've got two left, I see the one hasn't even got an amnesty number?
MS THABETE: Which one?
CHAIRPERSON: What is the position with those Ms Thabete?
MS THABETE: Mr Chair, the other one which doesn't have a reference number, the reference number is 7647/97. The position with regard to these two applications Mr Chair, is that it's one matter and Section 19.4 notice was served by our investigator, Oba.
CHAIRPERSON: For which date?
MS THABETE: For tomorrow, Mr Chair, so I'm not in a position to know whether they will be coming tomorrow or not because they are not in prison.
CHAIRPERSON: Are they in prison?
MS THABETE: They are not in prison and the last time, Mr Chair, why I am saying I'm not in a position to know whether they will pitch up tomorrow it's because they were set down in February and they were not heard because they did not pitch at the hearing so I'm really not sure whether they will pitch this time.
CHAIRPERSON: In the meantime has the TRC made any effort to contact them?
MS THABETE: They were served personally Mr Chair with the Section 19.4 notice.
CHAIRPERSON: After September's hearing?
MS THABETE: After February's hearing yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So do you have an address?
MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: And a phone number perhaps?
MS THABETE: No phone number.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there no way we can contact them at those addresses or that address?
MS THABETE: I telephoned Oba to come to the hearings today because we wanted to establish whether they would be coming tomorrow to the hearings. We will try and establish that fact today so that we don't waste time and come here tomorrow only to find out that they wont be here.
CHAIRPERSON: By what time will you know?
MS THABETE: Sorry Mr Chair, can you give me a minute?
Mr Chair, our Investigator is here, Mr Oba, he says he did serve these notices personally so we'll try and find out today whether they will be coming tomorrow or not.
CHAIRPERSON: I see it's one o'clock now. How long would you need to find that out?
MS THABETE: Apparently there is a guy they trust who we can contact telephonically so we'll phone this guy quickly to find out.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I'll wait in Chambers then you can come tell us.
MS THABETE: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for lunch.
MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
NO FURTHER MECHANICAL RECORDING
