ON RESUMPTION
MR VISSER: I call Mr Hope Chairperson, Bundle 4, page 802.
D.G. HOPE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Please sit Mr Hope. Mr Hope, you apply for amnesty, you have completed an application form which appears in Bundle 4, on page 802 up to page 807, is that correct?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Do you confirm the contents thereof?
MR HOPE: I confirm it, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you have also said in paragraph 7(a) that you did not belong to any political party or were a supporter, are these the correct facts?
MR HOPE: This is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: In 1981 you were a member of the Special Task Force of the South African Police?
MR HOPE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you received instructions to at a date which we know now is the 8th of December, to go to the Oshoek border post of Swaziland?
MR HOPE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you recall who accompanied you there and who participated in the operation?
MR HOPE: I can recall Chairperson, I can recall Mr Le Roux, Dercksen, Mr Steenberg, Commissioner Strydom, then Captain Strydom and I am not sure of Mr Moolman.
MR VISSER: Mr Prinsloo?
MR HOPE: Mr Prinsloo was right next to me, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Are these the only persons whom you can recall?
MR HOPE: There may have been others, but these are the only ones that I can recall today.
MR VISSER: At the border post were you informed as to what the operation entailed?
MR HOPE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What was said to you?
MR HOPE: It was told to us that a vehicle would arrive and a description was given of the vehicle, it would be a light vehicle, but I cannot recall what type of vehicle it would be and there would be two occupants whom they described as two high profile terrorists, whom we had to attempt firstly to arrest and if we could not, we should eliminate these persons.
MR VISSER: Did you receive such instructions?
MR HOPE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You went in?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: At the scene, did a vehicle arrive, stopped for a while and then departed again?
MR HOPE: Yes.
MR VISSER: Did this vehicle answer to the description that you had?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And through out you were under the command of Captain Strydom?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did he tell you that you had to leave?
MR HOPE: Yes, we withdrew and we went to Pretoria.
MR VISSER: A vehicle caught up with you and you were informed to return?
MR HOPE: Yes. At that stage, I was sleeping when the vehicle reached us, I woke up and we went back to the border, that is positive.
MR VISSER: Did you go back to the place that was identified to you?
MR HOPE: Yes sir.
MR VISSER: With certain adaptions, you were deployed over a larger area?
MR HOPE: Yes.
MR VISSER: Did a vehicle return?
MR HOPE: Yes, the same vehicle returned which was there the evening.
MR VISSER: Could you see if there were any occupants in the vehicle?
MR HOPE: My head was hidden behind the grass, I could not see it. When it turned and came back, and at that stage, at the angle at which I was laying, I could only see the driver of the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Did the vehicle stop?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: It switched off its lights?
MR HOPE: Yes, it switched off its lights.
MR VISSER: What happened then?
MR HOPE: Mr Chairperson, the lights were switched off and suddenly I heard some movement to the left of me and then there was an exclamation from the vehicle. I cannot say whether, if I can connect it to some language. I heard some weapon being cocked and just before that, I put myself in such a position where I could jump up and run to the vehicle. When the firearm was cocked, I threw myself down and the next moment, I heard some commotion and there were some shots and I started firing.
MR VISSER: Can you recall who was close to you?
MR HOPE: Directly next to me was the deceased Mr Ertjies Prinsloo.
MR VISSER: On which side?
MR HOPE: He was on my left hand side.
MR VISSER: Anybody else you can recall at the scene?
MR HOPE: To my right I think was Mr Le Roux.
MR VISSER: So you just rose up to start moving closer and you heard this cocking of the weapon and then you threw yourself down again?
MR HOPE: Yes.
MR VISSER: Did you start shooting first or did anybody else, the members of the Task Force, start shooting first?
MR HOPE: To my left somebody started shooting and therefore I started shooting.
MR VISSER: Could it have been Prinsloo?
MR HOPE: No, it was further to the left.
MR VISSER: Who was there?
MR HOPE: That group was Captain Strydom, now Commissioner Strydom and his group who was on that side.
MR VISSER: In relation to where you were laying Mr Hope, where did this vehicle stop?
MR HOPE: I would say that basically it stopped right in front of me.
MR VISSER: It stopped right at you, how far were you from this vehicle?
MR HOPE: Approximately 15 metres.
MR VISSER: And when you opened fire, did you fire from a laying position?
MR HOPE: Yes.
MR VISSER: And which weapon did you have there?
MR HOPE: I had a 7.62 Russian weapon, I cannot recall what make.
MR VISSER: Was it a rifle?
MR HOPE: Yes, it was a rifle.
MR VISSER: Do you think that you may have hit the persons or person in the vehicle?
MR HOPE: From such a distance it is quite possible.
MR VISSER: What happened to the vehicle?
MR HOPE: My first burst of shots were only tracer bullets and when I fired, I heard a whistling sound and the vehicle caught alight.
MR VISSER: Could you see afterwards how many people were in the vehicle?
MR HOPE: That is correct. When I heard this sound and the vehicle caught alight, I was afraid that it could explode and I moved back.
MR VISSER: Could you see how many people were in the vehicle?
MR HOPE: That is positive, I saw that there were two occupants in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Both on the front seats?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did they move or were they (indistinct)
MR HOPE: I can recall, but I think they were not moving.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I notice it is one o'clock, I don't know what the arrangements are now about Pretoria, but we are obviously not going to finish before lunch time. It seems to me that we will probably be another, well the other aspect is the question of argument, it seems to me we are going to be the rest of the day.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, our intention was to complete this matter. We are told that in any event we don't have this venue for tomorrow, so by the looks of it, it looks like we are into Monday, but we were hopeful of completing this matter. You know, at the same time, we want to assist our colleagues. How many witnesses are left? One?
MR VISSER: If I may add Chairperson, that that witness has nothing really to add to what you already know, but he is available to give his evidence. We will obviously finish this afternoon, but certainly not now.
CHAIRPERSON: ...
MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, that is the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, any questions?
MR PRINSLOO: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, questions?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT
MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I didn't take him through the evidence every time about what he applies for amnesty for, we have never done that before in the sense that we believe that the facts should speak for themselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VISSER: But if that is going to be a requirement, then I would have to ask him those questions.
CHAIRPERSON: If he knows what he is applying for, then you can ask him.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Hope, you apply for amnesty and in regard to the crossing of border post, border regulations and the attempted abduction on persons in Swaziland, is that correct?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you also foresee that persons might be killed or injured during this operation?
MR HOPE: It is so Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you also identify yourself with that?
MR HOPE: Yes, I did Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you also committed, you also defeated the ends of justice by not reporting these incidents to the correct authorities?
MR HOPE: Indeed Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you also fired directly?
MR HOPE: That is so Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And your shots could have killed one or more of the persons?
MR HOPE: Indeed Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And therefore you apply for amnesty for murder?
MR HOPE: That is true Chairperson.
MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Can you please tell us Mr Hope, why did you open fire?
MR HOPE: When I heard the weapon being cocked, I realised that our lives were in danger because these persons were already ready to fire, so it would not be my people.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you open fire because your lives were in danger?
MR HOPE: No Chairperson, because it was an illegal action.
CHAIRPERSON: So your life cannot be endangered in an illegal action?
MR HOPE: Chairperson, at that stage as they say, no legality could emanate from this, "don't worry".
CHAIRPERSON: What I want to ask you is was your life in danger? Forget about the technical things.
MR HOPE: I believe that from the time that I crossed the border until the time that I returned, my life was in danger.
CHAIRPERSON: But at the scene before you opened fire, was your life in danger?
MR HOPE: I believe at any stage my life was in danger, but I believe that my actions were all illegal.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you open fire?
MR HOPE: I opened fire because there was an instruction given to me that if these persons could not be apprehended, that they should be eliminated and with that I felt that my life was in danger when the weapon was cocked.
CHAIRPERSON: So you felt that your life was in danger when the weapon was cocked and that is why you opened fire?
MR HOPE: I also opened fire as part thereof.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean as part thereof, as part of what?
MR HOPE: Because there were other aspects, I had to ensure that the people, the other people who were there, their lives were also not in danger.
CHAIRPERSON: But all your lives were in danger according to you?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is why you opened fire, to take out the person because they were a problem at that stage, for the government. Did you shoot to take these persons out or because your life was in danger, what is the position?
MR HOPE: The position is that these persons, if they were not arrested, we had to shoot them. In this process, I also felt that my life was in danger.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it now both together, your life was in danger and in any case you had to take out these people?
MR HOPE: If they could not be arrested, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So it is these two, so you could not arrest them, so you had to take them out, but your life was also in danger?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And this is why you opened fire?
MR HOPE: Not necessarily because my life was in danger, but to take out these people.
CHAIRPERSON: And these are the two reasons why you opened fire, so you wanted to take out these people and you also wanted to protect yourself?
MR HOPE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Against the danger which you found yourself in?
MR HOPE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Which persons did you want to take out?
MR HOPE: According to our information, the people were high profile terrorists who were in the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: But you acted against two specific persons?
MR HOPE: At that stage, I had no names or information, just that it was two high profile persons.
CHAIRPERSON: So you do not know whom you had shot?
MR HOPE: No. In consultation with the legal representative, I found out who was shot.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any weapons in the vehicle?
MR HOPE: I did not see any weapons. At the angle where I was laying at, I could not see anything.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there any shots fired at you or your colleagues, from the vehicle?
MR HOPE: Not that I could observe.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you. Mr Visser?
MR VISSER: No re-examination Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hope, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, (indistinct), is he one of the operators?
MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, but he also fired shots, very similar to ...
NO FURTHER RECORDING
