Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We commence with the application of Mr Hoffman Boy Mhlongo. I would at this stage kindly request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I am Anina van der Westhuizen, appearing on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen.

MR NYAUZA: O.P. Nyauza, appearing on behalf of the victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyauza.

MS LOCKHAT: Lynn Lockhat appearing on behalf of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat. Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you honourable Chairperson. The applicant requested me to point out one or two things appearing on his application form, which is not correct. The first one ...

CHAIRPERSON: We are getting some sort of whaling sound in the earphones, it is - sorry, it is screaming, the earphones are making a noise. Okay, let's see how it goes now, thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you. The first one is the date of the incident for which he is applying for amnesty for, that appears on page 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I picked that up when I was reading the papers, yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Honourable Chairperson, the applicant informs me that he cannot remember the exact date on which this incident occurred. He however clearly remembers it was during 1993 and towards the middle of the year. It was also - the record of the court proceedings or the parts attached thereto was shown to him and the date of the 9th of July 1993 is indicated on those documents and he confirms that if that ...

CHAIRPERSON: That could be the date? He does not dispute...

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That could indeed be the date, he is not disputing that date.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing really turns on what the actual date is?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He is however applying for all the incidents that happened on that day, specifically the hijacking of a minibus as well as the killing of the taxi-driver, a certain Mr Ngwenya, which took place on that day. Then there is just also on page 1, in which he is asked, it is 7(b) to state the capacity he served in the IFP, it is stated there that he served as Secretary, Jeppe Hostel. He indicated to me that he was in fact the Assistant-Secretary to the Youth Branch at Jeppe Hostel. Thank you honourable Chairperson, those were all the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is all, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Assistant-Secretary of the Youth Branch?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Of the Youth Brigade of the Jeppe Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the Youth Brigade at the Jeppe Hostel? Just while we are on this Ms van der Westhuizen, perhaps if you could just give us his date of birth, I see it is not here, date of birth and age, just to get an idea.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think I will just go through it under examination, I am planning to lead him on the personal bit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you want him sworn in?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He has not yet been sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I will swear him in.

HOFFMAN BOY MHLONGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, where and when were you born?

MR MHLONGO: I was born in Ladysmith.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How old are you now?

MR MHLONGO: I am 33 years old.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you attend school in Ladysmith?

MR MHLONGO: In Nkandla, that is where I went to school.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you married?

MR MHLONGO: Traditionally, yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you have any children?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I just want to question you now a bit on your political background and your affiliation with the IFP. Can you remember when you joined the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: In 1975 at school, I joined the organisation.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was it a party then or was it some other sort of organisation at that stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the stage when the IFP was still a cultural organisation, before it had become a political movement or party, when you joined it in 1975?

MR MHLONGO: It was then the ...

INTERPRETER: Inkatha weSizwe, that is how you call it, it is a bit difficult to interpret that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you nine years old when you joined it?

MR MHLONGO: I wasn't nine years, but the entire family is Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Because why I say that is because you say you are 33 years now, 1975 was 24 years ago, 24 and 9 makes 33, so that makes you nine years old? What year were you born in, do you know?

MR MHLONGO: The reason why I say that is because that was my first year at school.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you perhaps remember your ID number?

MR MHLONGO: No, I don't know that off-hand.

CHAIRPERSON: So anyway, when you went to school, you became involved with the IFP as it then was? Is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, the school you will join in your capacity as a student.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you stated, is it correct, that your whole family actually supported the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is true.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When you moved to Johannesburg, where did you obtain work?

MR MHLONGO: I worked in Braamfontein hotel.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: From which year more or less, until which year did you work at the Braamfontein hotel?

MR MHLONGO: 1987 until 1993.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you still working there when you were arrested for this matter?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I was arrested on duty at work.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: After you moved to Johannesburg, were you still involved with the IFP in any, maybe formed part of their structures and can you just explain to the honourable Committee?

MR MHLONGO: I have been playing this role ever since.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What role, can you just describe that for the Committee please?

MR MHLONGO: Because when I got here in Johannesburg, I was a follower of the organisation and always interacted with the people, or with the fellow members in the organisation.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And your position as Assistant-Secretary, which Branch was that?

MR MHLONGO: Jeppe Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mhlongo, did you used to live in the Jeppe Hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Sometimes yes, because I had my bed there.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you just explain to the Committee as well, you informed me that you also had another place of residence. Can you just give that address?

MR MHLONGO: In Mofolo South, 457 Ndaba Street.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is it correct that you resided at both addresses at intervals?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: ... (tape ends) ... Chairman or can you give us names of other leaders of the IFP structures in the hostel?

MR MHLONGO: People who would be leaders were Mkhize.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What - was he a leader of the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, he was the one leader in charge of the entire Johannesburg area.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was the Chairman of your Branch?

MR MHLONGO: The Chairman of the Branch was one man who lived there in the hostel by the name of Mr Ntuli.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And the Secretary of your Branch, who was that?

MR MHLONGO: Mazibuko.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is that the same Mazibuko who you claim gave you a certain order?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when we are talking about Branch, Ms Mhlongo, are we talking about the Jeppe Hostel Branch or the Youth Brigade Branch within that, what are we talking about? Mr Mazibuko was the Secretary of what Branch of the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: Youth Brigade, Jeppe Branch, he was the Secretary for that particular Branch.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Good. Now, I just want you to in general tell the Committee what was the political climate as you experienced it during 1993 and with specific reference between the situation, or the conflict between the ANC and IFP.

MR MHLONGO: What used to happen, people were being killed. When we attend or go for rallies or meetings, we would encounter some disturbance from the opposing organisation, the ANC that is.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You describe certain events that took place on trains, please enlighten the Committee as to that?

INTERPRETER: The applicant cannot hear.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just repeat your question Ms van der Westhuizen, let's see if he can hear now.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you. Mr Mhlongo, you also described certain incidents that happened on the trains between ANC and IFP supporters, will you just briefly tell the Committee about that as well?

MR MHLONGO: It would happen that on our way to work, there will be stay-aways that will be launched and there will be toy-toying in the trains and people would be thrown out of the windows from the trains, whilst the train is in motion, and those things would happen in our full view.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you believe that those people were attacked by the ANC?

MR MHLONGO: That I knew for a fact, because they would explain before they undergo, or do something.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You referred to stay-aways and you also described to me certain ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ms van der Westhuizen, I think we could accept, we had evidence before about it, that there was a conflict situation between the ANC and the IFP at that time.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you honourable Chairperson, I will therefore not waste unnecessary time on that. Maybe just one point on that issue, is it correct that you also personally was travelling in minibuses, were attacked by ANC members?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is true.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And during that period, it is the half of 1993, that was the build-up to the elections the following year and because of that, there was also extra tension between the two political parties, can you confirm that?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, I want to ask you about specific meetings that prior to this incident, this fatal day of the 9th of July, there was - you informed me there was a meeting at the Jeppe Hostel. Will you please inform the Committee what happened?

MR MHLONGO: There was going to be a conference, an Inkatha Conference in Ulundi, then we had a meeting prior to the conference in the Jeppe Hostel. We were also organising the logistics around getting things like transport and so on. The followers of the IFP got highly upset because of the fact that things were not getting in order and in place in so far as it relates to the transport arrangements and we had to excuse ourselves from the big meeting to have our own caucus on the side.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, you as part of the leadership, were you confronted by the hostel people about the transport arrangements?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And did you make certain promises to the people about the transport?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did promise them.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: After that meeting, did you have another meeting and can you describe where and how that happened and who do you remember that was present there?

MR MHLONGO: Mr Mazibuko was present and others, Mkhize as well as Lamula from (indistinct) were present.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was that sort of a Committee meeting, a leadership meeting?

MR MHLONGO: It was a leadership meeting, or people who held positions.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What did you discuss during that meeting?

MR MHLONGO: We discussed ways in getting transport for the people.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What was decided, how were you going to go about that?

MR MHLONGO: Well, Mazibuko had an opinion that we could attempt to hijack a car, that will help a great deal.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You say ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed Ms van der Westhuizen, what was your responsibility, how many people were you expected to transport from the Jeppe Hostel to Ulundi for this meeting, what sort of numbers are we looking at?

MR MHLONGO: We thought if we could gain about three cars, that would be quite ideal.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about a car, are you talking about a vehicle or a minibus.

MR MHLONGO: I am referring to kombis.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Sorry Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you honourable Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, you say that Mr Mazibuko suggested this way of getting vehicles. Were you specifically instructed to get a vehicle and was it only you alone or were the other people also instructed to do the same, meaning hijacking a minibus?

MR MHLONGO: We were two, and we were given the order separately.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, if you say separately, it was at the same meeting, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: It was at the same meeting, but we were going to take our own respective routes afterwards.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you have your own firearm at that stage?

MR MHLONGO: No, the firearms that we would have used, belonged to Mr Mazibuko.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you just on this point also, tell the Committee what you know about firearms that were used or that were stored in the hostel, whatever you know about that?

MR MHLONGO: Well, what I know about that firearms was that Mkhize and others would collect money from the hostel dwellers to purchase more firearms in an attempt to defend or protect ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, hostel dwellers made contributions to buy firearms. Was it ever contemplated that they make contributions to hire a kombi?

MR MHLONGO: Well, we did not have sufficient funds even then, we were just under pressure and we did not have money.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't considered?

MR MHLONGO: No, as leaders, we will not have even considered that, because we had limited time at our disposal.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can I just maybe clarify one point or just get it across to the Committee, the bigger meeting that took place, let's call it the general meeting, the people at that meeting, how - what was the attitudes like? Were they angry at you, was it just a normal meeting, how did the people respond to the shortage of transport?

MR MHLONGO: There was no way we could even present ourselves in front of them, but because we were so brave as the leaders, we did try to go and stand in front of them, but they were highly infuriated, those people that is.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: After ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, he told us "I and somebody", but he didn't mention the name "were separately given orders". Who was the other person?

MR MHLONGO: This other person was a hostel dweller as well, he also lived there, by the name of Buthelezi.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just on that aspect, what position did this Buthelezi hold? Did he have any leadership position?

MR MHLONGO: No, he was just one of the men there, he was not hold any specific position as such.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you. I want to take you - now, can I just confirm, were you then handed a firearm by Mr Mazibuko?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearm was it? Was it an AK47, a pistol, a revolver, what sort of firearm?

MR MHLONGO: A firearm, 38.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just to get a bit of a time sequence right here, when were the buses to leave to Ulundi, can you remember on which day were they to depart?

MR MHLONGO: The day was supposed to be Friday, around ten, passed ten to eleven o'clock.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And this meeting where you discussed about the transport problems, can you estimate how long before the Friday did this meeting take place?

MR MHLONGO: Approximately it could have been two days prior to the day of departure.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, after you left that meeting and I assume that you also took the firearm with you, when did you go out and attempt this hijacking?

MR MHLONGO: I left the meeting and I went to the location where I was residing, to wake up the following day and go to work.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On which day did you actually continue to commit this hijacking?

MR MHLONGO: It was on a Friday.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now will you please describe the events on that day, let's start, what time did you leave your work?

MR MHLONGO: I left at two o'clock in the afternoon, I went to the residential area in the location.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What did you go and do in the location?

MR MHLONGO: I was going to fetch my firearm that I had left in my room.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, and after you got your firearm, where did you go to?

MR MHLONGO: I went to get my friend by the name of Ndlandla Zondi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, and where did you two go to?

MR MHLONGO: Well, we boarded a taxi and went to Bara and connected, and took the other taxi that we had already identified as a target, or our target.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: So you went with Zondi, you went by taxi to Bara, is that Baragwanath?

MR MHLONGO: Baragwanath Hospital, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you say there was another taxi that you had already identified? Is that right, did I hear you right, I just want you to confirm what you said?

MR MHLONGO: After alighting from the first taxi, we looked around as which taxi we will possibly hijack and that is the one we went into.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you identified it then, when you got there? Thank you, I had the impression it was previously, before going there identified, thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you honourable Chairperson. Just to ask about Mr Zondi, have you seen him since that day and do you know his whereabouts at this stage?

MR MHLONGO: Well ever since my arrest, I haven't seen him to date.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened after you and Mr Zondi boarded this specific taxi?

MR MHLONGO: We joined the other passengers in the taxi, the taxi took off. Inside the taxi, I could hear that the passengers were discussing and talking about the situation in the area, the conflicts, but we were quiet, we kept very quiet inside, listening to the other passengers discussing and talking until they all got off the taxi and we were the only ones remaining.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where was this taxi going to Mr Mhlongo, when the other people got off, where was it that they got off the taxi?

MR MHLONGO: Well, how the taxi operate is that they will, it will get the passengers and once it is filled, it will drive all the way to its destination. Now in this case, the destination was Umdini.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Umdini? Is that U-m-d-i-n-i?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. It was going to Umdini terminus.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mhlongo, you must forgive me, I am not familiar with these places. I know where Baragwanath is and I know where Jeppe is, but I do not know where Umdini is. Where is Umdini in relation to either of those places?

MR MHLONGO: Well, that is the last part, the southern most part of Soweto, Umdini.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you continue Mr Mhlongo, you say that you overheard the people having discussions in the taxi and talking about the situation. What did they talk about, can you remember?

MR MHLONGO: Although I don't quite remember well as to the details, but they were talking about the killing of people that was rife at the time between the two organisations, Inkatha and the ANC as it was nearing the election.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was there anything said about the hostels?

MR MHLONGO: They disliked the people that were in the hostel. They were also alluding to the fact that the hostel dwellers should be, should vacate the location and leave the area. In other words the hostel should cease to exist.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Honourable Chairperson, I notice that it is one o'clock. I do not know whether you would like to adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can take the lunch adjournment now, thank you Ms van der Westhuizen.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, just before lunch, Mr Mhlongo was testifying, saying that they were in the taxi, and he described the conversation that he heard from his fellow passengers.

HOFFMAN BOY MHLONGO: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: (cont) Thank you very much Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, now after all the people got off from the taxi, or let me call them passengers, who remained in the taxi?

MR MHLONGO: The two of us remained, as well as the driver.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And what happened, did you speak to him, what happened? Or did he speak to you, what happened after that?

MR MHLONGO: He enquired as to where we were going to get off.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes?

MR MHLONGO: We responded, saying that we were going to get off near Hladi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Anything else that was said?

MR MHLONGO: Thereafter I questioned him on the discussion that had taken place in the taxi as to what political organisation he was affiliated to. The then revealed that he was in the ANC camp. I then pointed my firearm at him.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you continue, can I just ask you, did you ask him his name and what can you remember he said to you?

MR MHLONGO: If I recall, I think he said he was Mr Moloyi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: But you know today that the man that you killed surname was Ngwenya, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is what I heard in court.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, you say that after he told you that he was from the ANC, you produced your firearm, can you just explain to the Committee, just in your own words, what happened then?

MR MHLONGO: After producing the firearm, I moved him from the steering wheel and instructed Ndlandla to point his firearm at him, so that I could drive the vehicle.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did you drive to?

MR MHLONGO: We drove to Jeppe Hostel.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And did you reach Jeppe Hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened at the hostel?

MR MHLONGO: I left him with Ndlandla in the vehicle, to report that we had acquired a vehicle. On my return, I discovered that there were a lot of people surrounding the vehicle, and at that point there was a discussion held, that because the man had seen us, he could easily identify us, that is why it was better to kill him.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The people around the vehicle at that stage, in the Jeppe Hostel, what were their mood like? Can you describe that?

MR MHLONGO: They were very happy that a vehicle had been acquired.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed, sorry Ms van der Westhuizen, why did you take him to Jeppe Hostel where you stay? Why didn't you when you pointed the gun at him, when you got into the driver's seat, why didn't you just leave him outside the vehicle and drive off? Why take him to the very place you come from?

MR MHLONGO: The reason why we did not leave him, was because we were not certain whether he had been telling us the truth and because of the reason that there were hostel residents who had families who drove taxi's, they could perhaps identify him if he was really an ANC person.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson. Now what did you decide, what happened after that?

MR MHLONGO: Thereafter when it had been decided that he had to be killed, we drove off. We proceeded towards Denver and came up on an open veld, where we off-loaded him and where he was also killed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you proceed, if you say "we took him to Denver Hostel", who was with you?

MR MHLONGO: I was with Ndlandla and some other members who were also driving with us in the car.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened in the open area that you described at Denver?

MR MHLONGO: I parked the vehicle, Ndlandla alighted the vehicle with him, at the time, he was still pointing the firearm at the man. That is where he shot at him.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that Zondi shot him?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. He fired the first shot.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you yourself, did you fire any shots at the deceased?

MR MHLONGO: No, I did not.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And what happened thereafter, what did you do?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ndlandla fired the first shot, then you proceeded and said you didn't fire any shots. Were there a second shot fired, and a third shot, how many shots, and who fired the other shots?

MR MHLONGO: He was shot at three times.

CHAIRPERSON: All by Zondi, Mr Zondi?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, after that, what did you do?

MR MHLONGO: Thereafter I returned to Jeppe, to report that we had completed the task. That was where Mr Mazibuko informed me that we had to go and collect firearms, using the vehicle.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did Mr Mazibuko tell you where to go to fetch firearms?

MR MHLONGO: He informed me that it was at Jabulani.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And where did you go from the Jeppe Hostel?

MR MHLONGO: We first went to Jabulani township, to a friend of mine, whom I promised to give a lift, that is Jabulani Majola.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just on that aspect, this Jabulani Majola, is it correct that he worked together with you at Braamfontein Hotel?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You say that you promised him a lift. Where was he going to?

MR MHLONGO: There was a religious ceremony that was to held at his home at Nqutu.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you say this Jabulani, he stayed in the area Jabulani, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened there, when you went to his house, was he there, did you speak to him?

MR MHLONGO: We parked the vehicle and sounded a horn and a vehicle approached. I think it was a Skyline. That is when we encountered problems and we therefore could not find out whether Jabulani was home, because after that, we were involved in a chase with this car.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You say this car was chasing you, is it correct that you then made an accident and fled from the scene?

CHAIRPERSON: Just carry on, sorry.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I did get involved in an accident where I hit the pavement upon which time we got off the vehicle and fled.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, can you tell this Committee why do you regard this whole incident as being politically motivated, or one with a political objective?

MR MHLONGO: Please repeat?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You yourself, why do you regard this whole incident and the events that happened as one with a political objective, or trying to reach a political objective?

MR MHLONGO: Because whatever I did, was under the banner of the organisation.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Mr Nyauza, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, how many of you were in this motor vehicle when you were involved in the accident after the chase?

MR MHLONGO: There were three of us, and Jabulani would have been the fourth one.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that yourself, was Zondi still there?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, he was still present.

CHAIRPERSON: Zondi and who else?

MR MHLONGO: Just myself, Mr Zondi, Mazibuko as well as somebody who had come with Mr Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: So that means there were four of you?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: You have been given instructions, according to your testimony you had been given instructions by Mr Mazibuko to go and collect arms at Jabulani, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And he accompanied you, he gave the instructions and he decided to be part of the people that he had instructed, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is not the same Mr Mazibuko who was the Secretary. It is just a similar surname.

MR NYAUZA: From - let's suppose you had gone to collect the firearms, what were you to do after you had collected?

MR MHLONGO: We would have taken them to Ulundi, to safeguard against whatever problems we may encounter along the way.

MR NYAUZA: Where would you have driven from? Would you have driven from Jabulani to Ulundi or what was your next stop after the collection of the firearms?

MR MHLONGO: From Jabulani we would have gone via Mofolo to pick up my clothes and then we would then drive to Jeppe to pick up the other members.

MR NYAUZA: In your testimony you told this Commission that at some stage you addressed a meeting of very agitated members who were disappointed that you could not arrange transport for them, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And in your testimony as well, you testified that at least three kombis would have been appropriate for these members, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: How many kombis did you get at the end of the day?

MR MHLONGO: We managed to get two.

MR NYAUZA: You got two?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And you were still short of one, is that correct to please the members?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is why ultimately we were not able to reach the place.

MR NYAUZA: No, we haven't arrived there yet. You decide to pick Jabulani up at Jabulani, when he was not part and parcel of the people who were agitated. What about the feelings of the other people?

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I think what Mr Nyauza is getting at Mr Mhlongo is, you said you needed three vehicles to satisfy the dwellers of Jeppe Hostel, you only got two, so in other words you won't be able to satisfy all the people who required transport, yet, despite that, you pick up your friend, Jabulani who has got nothing to do with the hostel. Why take up space when you are short of space to start off by somebody who is not from the hostel, that is what Mr Nyauza is asking you?

MR MHLONGO: He had requested me as a friend who was also my co-worker, to give him a lift.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, we are in a political scenario. You are amongst the leaders of your followers in the IFP, and despite the fact that your followers are not happy with the fact that you and the other leaders could not get them transport, you leave others behind. Explain that, it beats me, I cannot understand.

MR MHLONGO: I was not going to leave them, but because I had promised him, I went via his place to pick him up, but we were still going to go to the hostel to pick up the rest.

MR NYAUZA: But you wanted three kombis, is that correct, to pick everybody up?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that was our opinion at the time.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Would you take this friend of yours to Ulundi or where did you want to, where did he want to get off?

CHAIRPERSON: He wanted to get off at Nkandla. Whereabout is Nkandla in relation to Ulundi?

MR MHLONGO: I was going to leave him at Nqutu and then he would have to board taxi's to Nkandla and I would go on a different route to Ulundi.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, is Nkandla near, sort of down to Pietermaritzburg, that way?

MR MHLONGO: No.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, you have testified before this hearing that you were a member of the IFP since the age of 9, according to your testimony. When did you start becoming a card-carrying member of the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: Previously the system of membership cards was not in use, but when we arrived in Johannesburg, that is when we received membership cards which had identity photo's. That is when I came to Johannesburg for employment purposes.

MR NYAUZA: When did you arrive in Johannesburg?

MR MHLONGO: In 1980.

MR NYAUZA: In 1980?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR NYAUZA: And you were presented with this card in Johannesburg, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: It had a number?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, it did.

MR NYAUZA: You carried this card since 1980 to 1993, is that correct, when you were arrested?

MR MHLONGO: They system changed in 1993 and the new system was no longer plastic, but paper cards.

MR NYAUZA: The system changed, did the numbers change?

MR MHLONGO: No, it did not. I just renewed my membership.

MR NYAUZA: So the number remained the same for 13 full years, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I am certain of that.

MR NYAUZA: And in your application for amnesty you were asked to supply the Amnesty Committee with your number, which you failed to do. Didn't you know your number by heart, Mr Mhlongo, you had it for 13 full years?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, even up to this day, I do not even know if off my head.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, how far did you go with your schooling, we know you went to school at Nkandla, but it was not taken further as to how far you went with schooling. How far did you go in schooling, Mr Mhlongo?

MR MHLONGO: Standard 7.

MR NYAUZA: Standard 7?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR NYAUZA: What was your criteria in the IFP, of appointing office bearers?

MR MHLONGO: It was your commitment in the organisation.

MR NYAUZA: You were staying at - at some stage you mentioned somebody by the name of Mr Masimola and you stated that he was from some other IFP Branch, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Masimola?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, there is some name that you mentioned that went nearer to that, you said

"... we subsequently held a Committee meeting ..."

after you had made promises about transport and you mentioned some members, some people were at this particular meeting, you said Mazibuko was amongst them and there is a guy, apparently you said Mr Masimola who was from the Soweto Branch. Who else was at that meeting, after you had made promises that you would go and get transport?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, may I just assist, it is actually Ndula Lamula from Morafe Hostel, just to assist my learned colleague, Lamula, Morafe Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen.

MR NYAUZA: Did you have a Branch at Morafe, or did the people in Denver have jurisdiction, did they control people living in Morafe?

MR MHLONGO: We were still talking about somebody who had resided in Morafe prior to moving to Denver and the person was a leader in the Soweto area.

MR NYAUZA: So this Lamula was a leader in Morafe, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: What did he have to do with the meeting that effected people in Jeppe?

MR MHLONGO: For the reason that he was also a leader who would come to resolve a problem that we encountered.

MR NYAUZA: Where is Mr Mazibuko, the one that gave you orders? When was the last time that you saw him?

MR MHLONGO: I last saw him before my arrest and he was residing at Jeppe.

MR NYAUZA: After you were arrested, he never pitched up?

MR MHLONGO: He last came when I was still on trial.

MR NYAUZA: And when you were convicted, he never pitched up?

MR MHLONGO: No.

MR NYAUZA: And you were doing this whole thing in the name of the organisation, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: Isn't it sinister that you did something in the name of the organisation, you are convicted, you don't get any moral support from the people that you are trying to tell this Commission, that you were helping, isn't it funny?

MR MHLONGO: It did surprise me, even today, I am still shocked as to why.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, the house that you went to in Jabulani, isn't that a Priest's house?

MR MHLONGO: It belongs to Jabulani's father.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the question was isn't it a Priest's house? Do you know whether Jabulani's father is a Priest?

MR MHLONGO: He is a Priest.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, why didn't you make mention of affiliation to the IFP during your trial?

MR MHLONGO: Please repeat that.

MR NYAUZA: Why didn't you make known to the Presiding Officers at your trial, that you were an IFP member?

CHAIRPERSON: And that the whole hijacking was committed under instruction?

MR NYAUZA: I am indebted to yourself, Chairperson.

MR MHLONGO: I did not tell the truth in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyauza wants to know why.

MR MHLONGO: Because I was denying the offence. I was fearing for my life as well, that I may be killed if I mentioned that these are the people that gave me the order.

MR NYAUZA: Who was going to kill you?

MR MHLONGO: People like Mazibuko from the hostel.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, we are not kids here, you are arrested, you are incarcerated, you tell the police officer that "guys, I am an IFP member, I plead guilty to this thing because I did it in the name of the struggle, our struggle against the ANC" as it more fully appears in your papers here. Naturally you would be sentenced. When are you going to be killed?

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think it is rather common cause that at that stage, on both sides of the political spectrum, people denied that they were involved in politics, because they thought it may have repercussions on the sentence, etc.

MR NYAUZA: I would withdraw that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, also from our experience in these matters, Mr Nyauza, it is very common for us to hear that people in courts lied because they denied guilt and they were in the first instance endeavouring to get themselves free, so they told a completely different story.

MR NYAUZA: That is what I was leading at, Your Honour. Mr Mhlongo, what is going to make us believe you today, that you are not lying?

MR MHLONGO: It is because of the reason that I realise that I should admit what I did and tell the truth.

MR NYAUZA: What is it that you did? You didn't kill the deceased, what are you admitting to?

MR MHLONGO: It was to hijack the car, take the deceased to the hostel and lead ultimately to his death, because if I had not hijacked him, he would not have been killed.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, who is this Agrip Ncuncu, I never heard you saying anything about him in your evidence-in-chief?

MR MHLONGO: He is my cousin.

MR NYAUZA: I would wish to refer this Commission to pages 9 and 10 of the record, number 2 in his affidavit. Mr Mhlongo, you say in your affidavit that

"... Mr Agrip Ncuncu is my cousin, he is my witness who can testify for my behalf, he knows what happened and saw everything."

What is it that he knows and what is it that he saw? You never said anything about this in your evidence-in-chief?

MR MHLONGO: He was one person I used to visit at the hostel, and when I left the hostel, he took up my room, so whenever I went to the hostel, I would go to his room. So he knew everything.

MR NYAUZA: What is it that he saw?

MR MHLONGO: He saw the car as I arrived at the hostel.

MR NYAUZA: You have testified here today that you arrived at Bara, Baragwanath Hospital taxi rank, you identified the motor vehicle that you wanted. How did you identify the motor vehicle that you wanted because my experience tells me that cars queue there to ferry passengers to different destinations?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the usual taxi ranks where there is taut and when the first one is filled, the next one comes into the front, fill, the next one?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, Your Honour, it is like that.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot pick and choose which one you want?

MR NYAUZA: The first one - you cannot.

MR MHLONGO: We identified a car that looked a bit new, so when the queue was moving up, we also joined it, so that we could get onto that car.

MR NYAUZA: Had the driver of the motor vehicle according to your testimony, not have been an ANC member, just an ordinary member, would you have killed him?

MR MHLONGO: No, we would not have killed him. Our intention was not to kill.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Nyauza, on that aspect, but didn't you say in your evidence, that you killed him because he had identified you? You took him to that place and you killed him because he had seen you and would be able to identify you? Wasn't that the reason he was killed?

MR MHLONGO: I did say so, because he had been in our company for quite a while.

ADV SIGODI: In other words he would have been killed even if he was not an ANC member? Is that not the case?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, but I cannot be absolutely sure about that, because it is not that we had problems with every organisation. The only people we had problems with, was the ANC.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but the point I am trying to understand is that you said yourself that he was killed because he had identified you?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I did say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed Mr Nyauza, central to what you said to us today, particularly relating to the actual killing of Mr Ngwenya is Mr Zondi. I mean he is the man who went with you, he was with you the whole time, he is the person who actually pulled the trigger and executed the victim. Why did you not make any mention of Mr Zondi in your application form?

MR MHLONGO: It is because I did not know his whereabouts, where I could get hold of him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason why you did not mention him?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NYAUZA: I want us to go back to the IFP membership number. How many numbers does it comprise of?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the IFP ...

MR NYAUZA: IFP membership number. How many digits does it comprise of?

MR MHLONGO: It is something that I did not really notice. I do not want to assume, so I cannot respond.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, I get the feeling that you are evading my questions. Is that so?

MR MHLONGO: No, that is not so.

MR NYAUZA: you are quite aware that you've got to tell the truth here so that you can get amnesty, is that so?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, you lived for the IFP, you killed for the IFP, but you didn't give a thing for your membership number, which I believe it is extremely important to you, because you are carrying the IFP banner?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nyauza, do you have any idea how long the digits are because you know, if you had to ask me what my ID number was, I might battle to tell you and I have had it for longer than 13 years. If it was a three or four number, digits, you know, then of course it is easier to remember, but if it is one of these ...

MR NYAUZA: That is what I wanted to find out from him because he can approximate and say about six or seven.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR NYAUZA: But he doesn't even respond.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but do you know?

MR NYAUZA: No, I don't. I don't, Your Honour.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, I can remember my ID number, but I cannot remember any political party's number and I have been a member of quite a few.

MR NYAUZA: I think the reason is that you have been a member of quite a few, that is why you cannot remember.

JUDGE DE JAGER: That may be so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nyauza, you can continue.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, you know your home telephone numbers off my heart, is that so?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And you don't know your IFP numbers off by heart?

MR MHLONGO: Such numbers are not used regularly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is quite clear, he hasn't got a clue about the IFP number, he doesn't know. I think it is quite clear that he doesn't have a clue about it, he doesn't know whether it is four digits, six digits, a whole number of digits. I think it is quite clear that he doesn't know it is.

MR NYAUZA: No, the point taken. Mr Mhlongo, let's go back to the question why the driver was killed. Why specifically was he killed?

MR MHLONGO: We had discovered that he was a member of the ANC as well as for the fact that he had identified us, so he could recognise us and get us arrested.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, Jabulani, your friend, you have been so his place many times, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: I did not usually go to his home, but I worked with him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have been there before? Have you been to his place before that occasion when the chase happened?

MR MHLONGO: Well, if we knock off work at night, we would normally drop employees off at home, so that is how I knew where he stayed.

MR NYAUZA: So you agree that you had been to his place many times, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I do.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, would you visit him even on weekends? Sometimes?

MR MHLONGO: I was working on weekends.

MR NYAUZA: You were working every weekend of the year?

MR MHLONGO: It did not happen that we would both be off at the same time, because if I was off during weekends, he would have been off during the week, so he would be working during the weekend.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, the question was very simple. The question was did you visit him at his home over the weekend, then you answer saying "well, I worked the weekends". That is not an answer, the answer is either yes or no. Did you visit him at his home over weekends, anytime, ever over a weekend?

MR MHLONGO: No, I did not.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, what time was it when you went to Jabulani's place at Jabulani?

MR MHLONGO: Around ten o'clock.

MR NYAUZA: And you knew the route quite well because you were used to dropping him off at Jabulani, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I did know the route.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, you were working at Braamfontein, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And you have told this Commission that when you knocked off late, you dropped Mhlongo at his residence?

CHAIRPERSON: Jabulani.

MR NYAUZA: Jabulani - excuse me. You dropped Jabulani at his place. Whose car were you using?

MR MHLONGO: It was cars that had been hired by the company.

MR NYAUZA: And you would be in the same motor vehicle as Jabulani, but you would not have the same weekends off, how funny? Is there any comment on that?

MR MHLONGO: That is so. We worked, doing duty from 3 to 11 pm, but we worked in different departments, because the hotel itself had many departments.

MR NYAUZA: But when you knocked off, you used the same transport, irrespective of the different departments? That is your testimony?

MR MHLONGO: That is so.

MR NYAUZA: But you want to tell this commission that you would not have the same weekends off? Mr Mhlongo, you want amnesty here?

MR MHLONGO: The fact is we did not get our leaves on the same days. He would be off on a certain day and I would be off on another, we worked in different departments.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mhlongo, I put it to you, I don't know how to - my criminal, court background ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, that is the way to go.

MR NYAUZA: I put it to you Mr Mhlongo, that you had been to Jabulani's place of residence on some weekends, what is your comment on that?

MR MHLONGO: I never went to visit him during weekends.

MR NYAUZA: I further put it to you Mr Mhlongo, that during your visits to this place, to Jabulani's place, you once, you spotted this kombi being washed at the next door of Jabulani, what is your comment on that?

MR MHLONGO: I never saw it before.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the kombi, the self-same one that was hijacked?

MR NYAUZA: The one that he hijacked. And Mr Mhlongo, I further put it to you that you killed the driver of this kombi because he knew you well, he saw you on weekends when you were there? Not that he was an ANC member, but because he could tell that you hijacked the motor vehicle from him?

MR MHLONGO: I cannot comment on that, because if he saw me or if he knew me, I cannot tell because I did not know him.

MR NYAUZA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyauza. Do you have any questions you would like to put, Ms Lockhat?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: I just have one question Chairperson. Earlier you said that you didn't mention Mr Zondi's name in your application form and your further submissions was because you didn't know his address, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't know his whereabouts.

MS LOCKHAT: His whereabouts?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: But in your amnesty application form, your initial one, on page 3, you mention Mr Mazibuko as the person who had instructed you and then on page 6 you state that - the Commission asked you a question as to Mr Mazibuko's whereabouts and your response was on page 6, paragraph 2 that you do not know the address of Mr Mazibuko. You didn't know his whereabouts. Can you comment on that?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know his address up to this day, but I know that he resides at Jeppe Hostel, although I am not aware of the room number.

MS LOCKHAT: So you put his name in the application form although you didn't know his whereabouts, but you excluded Mr Zondi's?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the follow up is, if, if - take for example you didn't know Mr Mazibuko's address or where he lived, would you also have not mentioned him in your application?

MR MHLONGO: I mentioned him because my cousin resides with him at Jeppe Hostel.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On page 9 he says

"... Mr Mazibuko can be found at Jeppe Men's Hostel, room number 8."

MS LOCKHAT: That was later, yes. But I am talking about his initial application form, when he just mentions about the instructions and so forth, and then he gives us further information as to the questions we asked as to who was involved in the incident and so forth, and he does not mention Mr Zondi. He mentions Mr Mazibuko, but he says - well he still does not know, but he gives us another person we can contact to get the address. I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: None, thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

JUDGE DE JAGER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: A few. Mr Mhlongo, as you were the Assistant-Secretary of the Youth Brigade at the hostel, do you know roughly how many people resided in the hostel?

MR MHLONGO: You are referring to IFP members.

ADV SIGODI: The Jeppe Hostel? Yes. All the people, or the IFP members who resided at Jeppe Hostel, the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: The hostel was occupied by only IFP members because the Xhosas had been driven out.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was how many people stayed in the hostel then, approximately, a ball-park figure.

MR MHLONGO: I think there may be 300, 400.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you. And now for this conference that was going to be held in Ulundi, what provisions did the IFP make for its people at Jeppe Hostel, to transport them?

MR MHLONGO: We had arranged to collect funds, contributions, so that we could get transport, but for the reason that many of the hostel residents were unemployed ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did the IFP take it upon itself, when I say the IFP, I am going beyond the Jeppe Hostel, take it upon itself to provide buses or whatever for people not necessarily only at Jeppe, but for people in the Reef, on the Reef, in the Rand area to say "look buses, we've got this big conference, IFP people are encouraged to go. If you want to go, go to such and such a place, there will be buses you can hop on", was there anything like that that you know of, to get people to the conference?

MR MHLONGO: That is not the practice of the IFP, we normally pay for our trips.

ADV SIGODI: In my experience with the other matters, even if the people paid, but the IFP would provide buses for people to go and attend conferences as big as the ones that are usually held at Ulundi. You mentioned that you sought to get three kombis for this conference. How many, I man how much transport was there besides the three kombis that you sought to get, was available?

MR MHLONGO: There were buses that were going to ferry amabutu.

ADV SIGODI: All right, how many buses were available?

MR MHLONGO: Five.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know roughly how many people a bus can take, if you had five buses?

MR MHLONGO: I am not certain, we just get into the bus, as long as there is space.

CHAIRPERSON: These, are these, talking about the normal single storey bus, the Putco type bus? Those are normally, if it is that sort of us, they are normally 65 or 70 seaters.

ADV SIGODI: 70 people?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I am referring to such buses.

ADV SIGODI: So if you had about five buses, at least about 300 to 400 people would be able to get into those buses? What do you say to that?

MR MHLONGO: These buses were not only for the Jeppe Hostel, but we were going to carry members from other hostels as well, such as George Koch.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, and then for the Jeppe people, how many buses were available?

MR MHLONGO: I am not sure as to how many were going to be transported from Jeppe. That is why we felt that the transport was not sufficient.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but I mean as a member of the leadership group that was concerned with transport, how can you not know how many buses are available in order to be able to determine how many people will not be able to get transport?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Adv Sigodi wants to know is how did you arrive at the conclusion that you needed three extra kombis, why not one, why not 15?

MR MHLONGO: It was clear that the people who were not going to get spaces in the bus, were not that many.

ADV SIGODI: They were not that many? How many were they?

MR MHLONGO: I should think about 50 or so. That is the youth.

ADV SIGODI: All right, and you say you managed to get two kombis. Where did the second kombi come from?

MR MHLONGO: I am not sure about the other kombi. But I only learnt of it on our return.

ADV SIGODI: On your return from Jabulani?

MR MHLONGO: After returning from Ulundi. But I was not able to go to Ulundi myself.

ADV SIGODI: You were not able to go to Ulundi, after all the trouble that you went to to try and get a kombi, to get people to Ulundi?

MR MHLONGO: Our kombi sustained an accident and it was already in the evening at that time. When we arrived the following day, in the morning, we realised that the other members had already left.

ADV SIGODI: So these people were not so angry, the people that you sought to get the kombi for?

MR MHLONGO: They were angry, but the thing is I did not get to see them again, because I was arrested shortly thereafter.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know how the second kombi was obtained, and who obtained it?

MR MHLONGO: It was obtained by Mr Ntuli who had also been given an instruction.

ADV SIGODI: Was it also hijacked?

MR MHLONGO: I would say so, because he had been issued with the same instruction.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know where Mr Ntuli is today?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know.

ADV SIGODI: Was he not arrested?

MR MHLONGO: No.

ADV SIGODI: Okay. The third point which I want to come to is, I still want to understand why you did not leave the driver in the township, why did you have to take him back to Jeppe? There were two of you, you could have easily pushed him out of the vehicle, why did you have to take him back to Jeppe?

MR MHLONGO: That was part of the instruction that we should return with the person.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying to us Mr Mhlongo, that you were ordered to go and hijack a vehicle and bring the victim, the owner back? Is that what you are saying?

MR MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did you mean then to say that you were told to bring him back?

MR MHLONGO: I am trying to explain that we had been told that if we encounter a person who is from the opposing camp that we were fighting, we should either kill him or return with him to the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: To do what? To do what with him at the hostel? Why was it necessary to bring him back to the hostel if you could have killed him immediately?

MR MHLONGO: I did this so that I could show the other persons at the hostel that I have conducted the task satisfactorily.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't the vehicle itself be evidence of that?

MR MHLONGO: I do not know, but they were satisfied when I arrived with the driver.

ADV SIGODI: What happened when you arrived at the hostel? Because in your evidence you mentioned that the people came around and they were very happy that you got the kombi and then you decided to take the driver away to kill him because he had identified you? Is that all that happened?

MR MHLONGO: That is what happened.

ADV SIGODI: Is that all that happened?

MR MHLONGO: I don't remember anything else.

ADV SIGODI: If I recall your evidence clearly, you mentioned that you brought him back because you were not sure that he was ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier you said you brought him back because you thought he may not have been telling you the truth when he said he was ANC, and you brought him back to the hostel in case somebody could identify him as being an IFP person?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: What measures were taken to identify him there? Nowhere do you tell us that measures were taken to identify him as either IFP or ANC or some other political party?

MR MHLONGO: We gathered that from what he told us.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, none, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyauza?

MR NYAUZA: None Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: None, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mhlongo, that concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, we do not intend calling any further witnesses, so that is the whole application for Mr Mhlongo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyauza?

MR NYAUZA: Mr Chairperson, we wish to call the uncle to the deceased who was residing with him at his address. He is seated next to me. Let me just check the name.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I have the full names please?

MR MABIZELA: Edward Mabizela.

CHAIRPERSON: Edward?

MR MABIZELA: Mabizela.

CHAIRPERSON: Mabizela?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyauza, he is going to give evidence?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, he is Your Honour.

INTERPRETER: I don't think the witness hears.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just check the volume there, Mr Nyauza, the ... Can you hear now, Mr Mabizela?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I can.

EDWARD MABIZELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyauza?

EXAMINATION BY MR NYAUZA: As it pleases you. Mr Mabizela, are you related to the deceased, Vuzi Ngwenya?

MR MABIZELA: He was my nephew and he resided at my home in Jabulani.

MR NYAUZA: How long did you reside with him?

MR MABIZELA: More than 16 years. He was born there, attended school there until he finished, completed his schooling.

MR NYAUZA: Do you know of his political alliance?

MR MABIZELA: He was not affiliated to any political organisation.

MR NYAUZA: You have told us that he grew up at your home. What is the address?

MR MABIZELA: 7070 Jabulani.

MR NYAUZA: Do you also come from Jabulani?

MR MABIZELA: Yes. That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: Do you know Jabulani Wilson Mzokono Majola?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I know him, he is Pastor Majola's son.

MR NYAUZA: How far are they resident from your home?

MR MABIZELA: We are neighbours.

MR NYAUZA: Neighbours in what sense? You know, is he your next-door neighbour or is he the third street from where you are resident?

MR MABIZELA: There are a few houses between our homes.

MR NYAUZA: Are you in the same street?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you could perhaps just get it more clear.

MR NYAUZA: Are you on the same street?

MR MABIZELA: No, there is one street separating us.

MR NYAUZA: For how long have you known the Majola's?

MR MABIZELA: For a long time, we grew up together. We have known them ever since.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are at the Majola's house, can you see your house?

MR MABIZELA: No. There are houses in between.

MR NYAUZA: Your nephew, how long had he been a taxi driver?

MR MABIZELA: I cannot remember, but it has been quite a while, he used to drive for a Mr Moloyi from Moletsane.

MR NYAUZA: Do you know of his girlfriend?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR NYAUZA: Where was she residing?

MR MABIZELA: She resided next to the Majola home.

MR NYAUZA: And earlier on, when I consulted with you, you told me something about him washing the kombi at some place, what place was that?

MR MABIZELA: He had friends who resided in the same street as Mr Majola, so he would wash the car at his girlfriend's.

MR NYAUZA: You had known the Majola's and I would assume that you knew Jabulani. Do you perhaps know some of his friends?

MR MABIZELA: I knew the family well, as well as their son. I grew up with them and they were religious people.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you know some of Jabulani's, that is the son's, friends?

MR MABIZELA: No, I did not.

MR NYAUZA: Do you know the applicant before this hearing today?

MR MABIZELA: No, I do not.

MR NYAUZA: When was the first time you saw him?

MR MABIZELA: I am seeing him for the first time today. I just learnt that he is Mr Mhlongo today.

MR NYAUZA: What would you wish to tell this Commission today, are you happy with what has been said in this Commission today?

MR MABIZELA: It worries me because when I arrived I was questioning as to why this person is seeking amnesty.

MR NYAUZA: Yes, proceed?

MR MABIZELA: Because this act was intentional and there was no violence in Jabulani as he claims. We grew up in that area, there was no violence in Jabulani. Up to this day, there is no violence. We were even close to the Majola's.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Nyauza, you say that the deceased drove taxi's for Mr Moloyi. Do you know which route he operated on, what - whereabout did he drive taxi's? If you don't know, just say so.

MR MABIZELA: It was a route from Zola (indistinct), to town.

CHAIRPERSON: He drove from Zola to town?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, from Zola to town.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you tell me please where Zola is, and to town, do you mean Johannesburg?

MR MABIZELA: Zola is in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: And to town, do you mean Johannesburg, CBD?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, it is correct.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, do you - you have told this hearing that you grew up with Jabulani and you know that he was not at all affiliated, sorry, let me rephrase that question, were you aware of his political affiliation?

CHAIRPERSON: This is not Jabulani, this is ...

MR NYAUZA: Jabulani?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you are asking now not about the deceased, Ngwenya?

MR NYAUZA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You are asking about Jabulani?

MR NYAUZA: Jabulani, do you know perhaps of Jabulani's political affiliation?

MR MABIZELA: I know Mzokona Majola Jabulani.

MR NYAUZA: No, his other name is Jabulani Wilson Mzokona Majola. Did you know of his political affiliation?

MR MABIZELA: No. They were not politically affiliated, they were very religious people.

CHAIRPERSON: But some religious people have political affiliations? The fact that they are religious people, does not mean that they don't have a political affiliation? Are you saying that you believe that he was - did not have any political affiliation because he was religious?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I believe so. There would be religious ceremonies even at the Majola home. I never heard any political discussions, we just worshipped together.

MR NYAUZA: So Mr Mabizela, you have given testimony before this Commission today that the deceased had friends at the street where your nephew had a girlfriend and where Jabulani Wilson Mzokona Majola was resident, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And you have stated that he would wash his kombi on that street?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you seen him washing the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: Many times.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Many times? At that place? At that house?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR NYAUZA: And he would do this even on weekends when Jabulani was home, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: Sometimes he would wash it during the day and even weekends when it wasn't so busy, he would wash the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Nyauza, this kombi belonged to Mr Moloyi?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: And - sorry, I am going to ask your witness now. Did the deceased keep it full-time, he would go to sleep with it, you know, take it home, take it to work the next morning, or did he have to when he is not driving as a taxi driver, leave it at some sort of depot?

MR MABIZELA: He would take the vehicle to the Moloyi home if he was not working, but he used it most of the time.

MR NYAUZA: So he used this one kombi only?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: And invariably Jabulani would have known, Jabulani Majola would have known that, would have known this kombi well because he used to wash it at the street, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Nyauza, this line of evidence, we know subject to what Ms van der Westhuizen is going to cross-examine, but on the evidence of this witness, he washed the car in the street quite often. We know from Mr Mhlongo's evidence that sometimes he went there when he dropped him off from work, but the witness says he has never seen Mhlongo before. He says he is seeing him for the first time today. So, I mean we know it is cleaned there, etc, this is sort of a question of argument now, I think. I don't know what more the witness can say.

MR NYAUZA: Yes, what else can you tell the Commission to sum up your evidence?

MR MABIZELA: What I can say is that the applicant is not telling the truth with regard to the political situation. As I said before, my nephew was not politically affiliated and moreover the Majola's were religious people. His intention was to rob that vehicle and when my nephew did not return on that day, he himself, told us that my nephew was somewhere around, so what I am trying to say is that the applicant is not telling the truth. His intention was to rob that vehicle, unfortunately he had to take a life too.

MR NYAUZA: Is that all Mr Mabizela?

MR MABIZELA: With regards to the political conflict, there were no problems in Jabulani, so he is not telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabizela, the witness wasn't, Mr Mhlongo wasn't necessarily confining, saying that there was political violence in Jabulani. He was saying it was around Jeppe Hostel and that sort of area. In any event, we hear what you are saying.

MR NYAUZA: Is that all?

MR MABIZELA: It was discovered later that he removed the person and the Majola's were not even aware what was happening, because there was this altercation going on. Even the people who were there at the Majola home, were surprised as to what that vehicle's business was at their home. What I am therefore saying is that Mr Mhlongo knows why he killed that person. It had nothing to do with politics, but it was just a criminal act and that was a kombi that they had already targeted before. Even Mr Nala informed me that he had heard from Mhlongo that Mhlongo already had a kombi to use and Mr Nala is also a Priest.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, are you telling this Commission that there were women passengers in this kombi?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see the kombi yourself, with your own eyes?

MR MABIZELA: People were chasing the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: No the question was did you see it yourself, the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: They only came to my home to enquire about my nephew, as to where he was, because the kombi was seen on the street, and there were women inside the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabizela, please just listen to my questions, it is a very easy question, it is a very simple question, did you see the kombi yourself, with your own eyes?

MR MABIZELA: I did see the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see, who did you see, did you see anybody in the kombi with your own eyes?

MR MABIZELA: Mr Mhlongo.

CHAIRPERSON: And were there any other people that you saw in the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: The women.

CHAIRPERSON: How many women?

MR MABIZELA: It was not full, maybe four or so, because they had bags around with ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, did you see him that night in the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: I saw the driver.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you recognised him?

MR MABIZELA: (Indistinct) said it was Mhlongo.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you only saw him today for the first time?

MR MABIZELA: I recognised the voice.

ADV SIGODI: I am listening to the Zulu and the English interpretation. I think, can I clarify that with the Interpreter?

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, are you saying you heard people saying it is Mhlongo or you heard Mhlongo's voice?

MR MABIZELA: I heard people saying that it was Mhlongo. I did not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is common cause that he was in the vehicle, he said so himself.

MR NYAUZA: Yes.

MR MABIZELA: No, I did not know Mr Mhlongo.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, let's not confuse issues here. Let's take issues step by step, don't rush, listen to questions, and respond correctly. Mr Moloyi's kombi is missing, he sends about two or three boys according to the testimony that prevailed at the trial. These two boys go out, did they come to pick you up first or they went to the kombi? Let's clarify issues?

MR MABIZELA: They first came to me, then we went towards the kombi.

MR NYAUZA: So you were one of the occupants of the Skyline that we are being told about in the records here?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct, I was.

MR NYAUZA: How many of you were in the Skyline?

MR MABIZELA: Moloyi's sons, two of them, plus Mr Moloyi himself.

MR NYAUZA: And you drove to Mzokona Majola's place in Jabulani?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: Who got off the motor vehicle?

MR MABIZELA: Moloyi's sons.

MR NYAUZA: You remained in the motor vehicle, is that what you are telling this Commission?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I remained in the vehicle.

MR NYAUZA: And who else? You told us there were four of you?

MR MABIZELA: They were with my nephew's friend, so I remained with him in the car.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, you parked behind the kombi. Take this Commission through what happened, they got off, they did this, they did that, we did this, we did that, steady?

MR MABIZELA: Okay. As we arrived there, there was an altercation that ensued and that is when the kombi drove off, fled, and we chased at the kombi.

MR NYAUZA: Those boys came back. Who was the driver of your Skyline?

MR MABIZELA: Moloyi's son.

MR NYAUZA: And he had gotten out to speak to the driver, is that so?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we need all this sort of, but the fact is they chased it.

MR NYAUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we don't need ...

MR NYAUZA: And how many people were in the motor vehicle, in the kombi that you chased?

MR MABIZELA: There were four people, the kombi was idling at that time. It looked as if they were there to collect some people.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, it is at night, it is about ten o'clock. You are telling this Commission that there were about four people in the kombi. Did it have dim windows, or was there a light that showed you that there were about four people in the kombi? How do you know that there were four people?

MR MABIZELA: The windows were not dimmed.

MR NYAUZA: And it is ten o'clock at night, it is not as simple as during the day. How did you see them, with the lights, were your headlights on, or whatever, give us, put us through that?

MR MABIZELA: When the kombi drove off, because it was supposed to go and collect some other people from the Majola home, and that was when there was this confusion that ensued.

MR NYAUZA: And then were these women inside the kombi or they were about to board the kombi? When this kombi was chased, did it have women passengers inside or not?

MR MABIZELA: They were inside.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, testimony given by the applicant today is that there were four of them, males only, no females, what is your comment on that?

MR MABIZELA: I would dispute that. He had come to Jabulani to collect people who were supposed to go to church.

MR NYAUZA: So, how many males, you say there were four people, people are makes and females. What are you referring to when you say there were four people? Is he included or not?

MR MABIZELA: Others had just loaded their property onto the kombi and were not as yet inside the kombi. When the altercation ensued, that was when the kombi drove off and it was chased.

MR NYAUZA: Mr Mabizela, my question is simple and straight forward, you are saying there were four people, my question is was he the fourth person or not?

MR MABIZELA: No, I am not counting Mr Mhlongo. There was a driver.

JUDGE DE JAGER: He said it was about four people, so it could have been five, it could have been three. I don't know how we figure out whether he was the fourth if there was about four people there?

MR MABIZELA: It was also dark, but there were four women inside.

MR NYAUZA: So when you say there were about four people, you are referring only to the women?

CHAIRPERSON: We know that, he said Mr Mhlongo was in the kombi. Are you trying to get Mr Mhlongo out of the car?

MR NYAUZA: No, no Your Honour, no. These women were inside the car, you chased the car, it stopped and he ran away, left some items in the motor vehicle that he was subsequently identified about, is that so?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct.

MR NYAUZA: Is that your testimony then today?

MR MABIZELA: Yes. There were items that remained in the vehicle and the women also got off because they did not know anything, because at that time we were enquiring from them as to where was the driver, the person who drives this car. We did not know what was going on.

MR NYAUZA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyauza. Ms van der Westhuizen, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, just in short, one or two questions. Mr Mabizela, your nephew, was he much younger than you, the deceased?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, he was very young.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You didn't go out with him on a social basis to the theatre or something like that?

MR MABIZELA: No.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I am not going to pursue this, I just want to put it, you might not necessarily know his political affiliation on the basis that you are a much older person, you didn't use to go out with him, you were much older than him. Do you have any comment on that?

MR MABIZELA: This nephew was fond of me, we were close and I will sometimes send him to the bank, but he had never mentioned anything about politics, he just loved soccer. On his way, on his return from work, he would also play soccer and also during weekends, on Sundays, he would play soccer, but he never participated in political activities.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And it is on this basis that you say that he was not politically affiliated, because he never mentioned it to you, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: That is correct. He used to play soccer with his friends, he never mentioned anything about politics. He used to tell me about things, he used to confide in me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabizela, did he actually live with you under your roof?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, at my home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ... place where he was killed?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of his death he lived with you?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't he stay there up to the age of 16?

MR MABIZELA: No, he used to reside at my home, he never left. His home was in Diepkloof, but he spent most of his time at my home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So he had a home in Diepkloof?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, he did.

JUDGE DE JAGER: With whom was he staying in Diepkloof?

MR MABIZELA: His parents as well as his siblings.

CHAIRPERSON: From the time that he was killed, for how long had he been staying at your place? When did he last stay at Diepkloof prior to his death?

MR MABIZELA: He didn't stay at Diepkloof, he stayed at my home. He would maybe go there during the day to see them, but he didn't spend time in Diepkloof, he spent most of his time at my house. Even when he was attending school, he was staying at my home.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mabizela, regarding your evidence just on that night and the people inside the kombi, I am not going to ask you detail about that, but wouldn't you agree with me that things happened very quickly, it was very dark at night and you could easily get confused as in making a mistake between men and women inside the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: Please repeat that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Let me tackle this from another angle, you at some stage testified that there were four, about four people inside the kombi, then at a later stage you testified there were four women in the kombi. This is a clear indication that you are not exactly sure whether you indeed saw women in the kombi or not, would you agree with me?

MR MABIZELA: There were women in the kombi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Well, you have heard the evidence of Mr Mhlongo and he will still maintain that there were only men inside the kombi. I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nyauza?

MR NYAUZA: No re-examination Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, any questions? Adv Sigodi, any questions?

ADV SIGODI: Yes. Did the deceased have any children?

MR MABIZELA: No.

ADV SIGODI: So his closest relatives would be his parents?

MR MABIZELA: That would be his parents and the closest members of the family.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, and are both his parents still alive?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you perhaps have their names?

MR MABIZELA: Kenneth and Eva and the father is also present.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising? Thank you. Thank you Mr Mabizela. That concludes your evidence.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyauza?

MR NYAUZA: I was wondering as to whether it is argument time or not?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just asking if you've got any further evidence?

MR NYAUZA: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: No, okay.

MR NYAUZA: That will be the case for the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is argument time, now.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson. Just before we proceed, the applicant, it is not part of his application, but indicated that he would just express how he felt about what he had done.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mhlongo, Ms van der Westhuizen has indicated that there is something that you would like to say about what you had done. You are free to say what you wish.

MR MHLONGO: Well, there is one thing I would like to say regarding what I have done. I do regret for all the acts I have committed. I would like to extend my apologies to the family of the victim. I feel this great remorse in me as a result of my acts.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mhlongo. Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN ARGUMENT: Thank you honourable Chairperson, just in short, I will submit that the applicant's application comply with all the formal requirements of the act, it is an act associated with a political objective and that full disclosure was made by this applicant. Honourable Chairperson, if I say full disclosure was made, that should be seen in view of the fact that this applicant has been in prison for quite a long time, and obviously will not be in a position to specifically state addresses and details where people involved, or people he knew at that stage, is still residing. As far as the political objective is concerned, I want to submit that from the background of the applicant, it is clear that he was part of the political struggle. He experienced attacks on himself, people got injured very close to him, it is clear that he came from a family, he was brought up within the IFP, support - in that group, he became part of the leadership of the IFP Youth at the Jeppe Hostel, he acted there as Assistant-Secretary of the IFP. He did not act on his own in this matter, he followed the instructions of a person whom he regarded as his leader, namely Mr Mazibuko. It is also clear that there was further pressure from the community in the Jeppe Hostel to obtain transport and that they felt under the circumstances very pressurised. It is clear from his evidence that he did not gain anything personally from committing this act. The transport that he was seeking was to be used at the hostel for the IFP and to go to the specific conference and also to transport guns. The applicant bona fide believed that he was acting in the furtherance of the political structure. This whole incident took place during a period in which there was basically a war between the IFP and the ANC and it was the middle of 1993, leading up to the elections in 1994. It was a very tense climate and it should be seen against that background and I will humbly request this Committee to grant the applicant amnesty. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Mr Nyauza?

MR NYAUZA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Testimony has been given before this hearing that, by the applicant, that he wanted this kombi to be used to transport arms and members of his political affiliation. There was agitation from his own members about them not getting them transport, but despite that, he had the nerve to get a friend of his whose

political affiliation he did not support, he did not say he was an IFP member, he just said "he was my co-worker and a friend". So he is compromising the, if we are to believe his version, then it means he is compromising the seat that is supposed to be used by a bona fide IFP member to attend a meeting that is extremely important to them, for somebody who is not politically affiliated to the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: For somebody who was not going to the conference?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, he was not going to the conference. Somebody, that seat could have been used by somebody from his political affiliation.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the idea of the transport was to shuttle people to the conference, you know, so even if somebody was an IFP and got a lift, who wasn't going to the conference, it would be taking up a seat of a conference goer?

MR NYAUZA: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying it is improbable, his version is improbable?

MR NYAUZA: It is improbable.

CHAIRPERSON: Taking into account that?

MR NYAUZA: That is what I am saying. And as regards him not having gained anything out of the whole thing, we have heard testimony from Mr Mabizela and I would kindly submit to this Committee that despite the problem that we had with Mr Mabizela to adduce evidence, testimony has been given that there were women in this motor vehicle, and these were church women and we know that they were going to religious ceremony somewhere in Natal. That has not been disputed, it was actually not contested further.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem, just on this whole aspect, that it would have been, it must have been on the applicant's version, an incredible coincidence that he goes to Baragwanath taxi rank, which is busy, picks a taxi to hijack, hijacks the taxi and it turns out to be a taxi which gets washed next door to his friend's house in Jabulani. It is just an incredible coincidence?

MR NYAUZA: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: That the taxi was found by Mr Moloyi and his sons, right there at Jabulani, when it was hijacked at Baragwanath?

JUDGE DE JAGER: But it is also a fact that in the meantime, they had killed the man, dropped him in the veld, so that happened, it is a fact, they found the body there and then came back by coincidence, next to the house where the girlfriend was living?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just tell me and that is not evidence, but we can always look it up, Jabulani, where is Jabulani in relation to Baragwanath for instance? Mr (indistinct) can just tell me.

MR MABIZELA: Next to the Fire Brigade, Jabulani Fire Brigade.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, next to where?

MR NYAUZA: I think Jabulani is about eight kilometres, eight to ten kilometres from Baragwanath Hospital.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And how far from the place where the body was found?

MR NYAUZA: More than 25 kilometres, it is in town, it was found in Denver, just when you are on the M2 East.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Nyauza.

MR NYAUZA: Honourable Commissioners, we have heard numerous applications before this hearing, and members who were politically affiliated, have been supported with affidavits by people who gave instructions, and they would state that there was political turmoil at the time, but what we did not give these people were rights to take people's lives. We are today faced with a situation where the applicant is the only person who knows, who tells us that he was an IFP member. As regards the addresses of people who gave instructions to him, he does not know. He only knows that they stay at Jeppe Hostel. It is common cause that IFP members stayed at hostels around the country, and any person, you know, if I were to for want of a better word, I could have committed an offence in 1993 and then become a loose canon and say "no, I was acting within the ambit of a particular party."

CHAIRPERSON: It is always very easy to just say that.

MR NYAUZA: Exactly. So, we needed him to support his version, that he is an IFP member, we needed him - I asked him questions regarding his membership number. This is a gentleman who was Assistant-General Secretary.

CHAIRPERSON: Assistant-Secretary.

MR NYAUZA: Assistant-Secretary, and we expect a person would be in the know-how more than his other followers, but a lot of things we wanted from him, we would have to dig it out of him, to say "why didn't you mention X, why didn't you mention Y"? My argument is this thing was done, it is a criminal offence, it is not an offence that falls within the ambit of the Truth and Reconciliation Act, it is something that he did and with this friends and failed to achieve whatever he wanted to achieve. It is just that we did not want to get into the nitty-grittys of the criminal trial in that they don't have that much weight here, but based on what has been said before this Commission today, Mr Mhlongo's version cannot be corroborated by anybody. He has referred us to a lot of people. Where is his cousin, Agrip Ncuncu that he has referred us to? He is not in this court today, he has not made an affidavit to support that "yes, I know he did", he calls him his witness, but he is not here.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have we any evidence that contradicts what he said?

MR NYAUZA: Yes, we do Your Honour. He stated that there were four males in the motor vehicle. The guy who went with the Moloyi's to the car that was parked there, has given testimony that there were women in that motor vehicle which supports the version that he had told those people that "I will organise a kombi to take you to that religious ceremony in Natal."

JUDGE DE JAGER: He also stated that Mr Moloyi, the father was in the Skyline and according to the evidence at the trial, he wasn't in the Skyline.

MR NYAUZA: No, he said Mr Moloyi's son.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was the driver?

MR NYAUZA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But he also referred to Mr Moloyi?

MR NYAUZA: I didn't pick that up Your Honour.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ... notes, that we can ...

MR NYAUZA: In essence I would make an application to this Committee to dismiss the application for amnesty. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyauza. Ms Lockhat, do you have anything?

MS LOCKHAT: I have no further submissions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any reply Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN REPLY: Maybe just as to further support or the lack of further support as indicated by my learned friend, the applicant is in prison, he has supplied whatever detail he could to the TRC. He is hardly in a position to find these people himself.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that, yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And that is - I would just make one comment on the fact that he didn't know his membership number, as rightly stated by you honourable Chairperson, a lot of people go through life without knowing their ID numbers, so I would respectfully submit that that cannot hold any water. Furthermore as to the evidence of Mr Mabizela and women getting in and out, his evidence is on record, and I will just submit that he wasn't a very good witness and there cannot be placed any reliance on his evidence. As the honourable Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter and we will get out a decision as soon as possible. I would like to thank Ms van der Westhuizen, Mr Nyauza, Ms Lockhat for your assistance in this matter. Ms Lockhat, is that the roll for the week?

MS LOCKHAT: That concludes our roll Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: For - yes, thank you. We have now come to the end of our roll, there were nine matters set on it. One was withdraw, we have heard eight, and we have finished two days ahead of schedule, so we didn't do badly at all. I would like to, before we adjourn, just thank everybody who made these hearings possible. The people at JISS for providing this venue, which is very convenient and very nice, television, sound technician people, the interpreters who have worked very hard all week. All the matters that we have heard, involved a lot of interpreting. The logistics officers, our secretaries, the caterers, everybody, security people, Correctional Service for bringing the people, thank you very much. We will then be adjourning now. I believe there will be another Committee here next week, even again the week after, I will be back in two weeks time. Thank you very much, we are now adjourned.

MS LOCKHAT: All rise.

HEARING ADJOURNS