ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: The next matter on the roll is the application of Pitso George Makume, amnesty reference AM0163/96. The Panel is constituted as has been indicated on the record earlier. The appearances are the same, for the applicant is Mr Mbandazayo, the Leader of Evidence is Ms Mtanga and then I'm going to ask Mr van Rensburg to put himself on record for the victims.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My name is Koos van Rensburg, I'm acting on behalf of seven victims in the Makume matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr van Rensburg. Yes Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. May the applicant be sworn in, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Makume, won't you please stand to take the oath. Are your full names Pitso George Makume?
PITSO GEORGE MAKUME: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the purposes of this hearing I will use the information which starts from page 17 to page 20.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Makume, is it correct that you were born on the 19th February 1973, at Sasolburg?
MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far have you gone at school?
MR MAKUME: I completed my standard 10.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you complete your standard 10?
MR MAKUME: While I was in prison.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now before you went to prison, how far did you go at school?
MR MAKUME: Only standard 8.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Makume is correct that you were a member of the South African Defence Force?
MR MAKUME: Yes, it's correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the South African Defence Force?
MR MAKUME: In 1992.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And when did you leave the South African Defence Force?
MR MAKUME: In January 1993.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Makume, is it correct that you are a member of PAC?
MR MAKUME: Yes, it is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?
MR MAKUME: I joined the PAC in 1993.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who recruited you into PAC?
MR MAKUME: It's Mr Nape Kumane.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where is Mr Kumane presently?
MR MAKUME: I'm not sure, but I was made to understand that he's somewhere in the Northern Province, where he originates from.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, am I correct to say that some of the incidents that you are applying amnesty for, were whilst you were still a member of the ANC?
MR MAKUME: Yes, it's correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the ANC?
MR MAKUME: I should think as early as 1991, but before I was the supporter of SANCO, which was then dominated by the ANC, that's how I found myself supporting the ANC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you leave the ANC?
MR MAKUME: If not end of '91, I think it's early '92, yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Makume, can we start with the - at page 17, Chairperson, what was the first incident in which you were involved in? Can we start with the one which you were involved in. Which one was the first one?
MR MAKUME: I can't exactly, but the one I remember is the one I was directly and physically involved, it is the one when we were targeting the butcher in the Zamdela township.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now that incident, you were still a member of the ANC, am I correct?
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that incident, about the butcher in Zamdela township, what happened, who planned the whole thing, who came up with the idea and what was the reason for you to attack that butcher.
MR MAKUME: Well to start with I will say, normally every Monday afternoon the entire residence met in the community hall, where we were discussing a mechanism as to how can we find the site for this informal settlement, then after every meeting the youth league of the ANC then meet around the very same hall and discuss the issues now involving the burning of the cops' houses, everyone who served under the then government, including the same butcher.
But now I would like to say, the reason why they decided on targeting the butcher is that they had the information that the owner of the butcher was from the opposition party, the former liberation by then, that is AZAPO. So what was taking place was a power struggle amongst these youth organisations.
I think for the fact that they saw a van owned by Mr Mahlatsi, he's the owner of the butcher, around the people who were busy giving the site or the stands for those who were looking for them, then they then decided after that meeting, on Monday after the meeting, that today we are going to attack his butchery, Mr Mahlatsi I mean to say.
So like any other youth by then, we all followed those leaders of ours and attacked the butcher. We harassed the staff there, then we chased them out of the butcher. They destroyed almost everything inside, even penetrated and pushed the very same van out of the store and then - I was carrying a butcher knife by then, and then I stabbed the petrol tank, so that it can spread the petrol out, as to make it possible for the fire. So we burnt the van and then we ran away for the police because they were already on their way by then.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have indicated to the Committee about the power struggle, are you in a position to tell the Committee who are the people who decided that Mr Mahlatsi belonged to the opposite camp and he has to be attacked? Are you in a position to tell the Committee who those people were?
MR MAKUME: Yes, I am.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes?
MR MAKUME: I can mention people such as Pajani Mguni, he was one of the ...(indistinct) leaders of the Youth League, as much as Sebobo Makume. He's now serving in Sasolburg Council. So they're the ones who said this person deserved this, a treatment of this nature. So to them it is like Mr Mahlatsi was destabilising the whole set-up of winning our side for our people.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that I'm getting you that the reason why Mr Mahlatsi was attacked is because he was believed to be a member of AZAPO?
MR MAKUME: Yes, my leaders believed in that, so I was just following them.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So because there was a power struggle between AZAPO youth and the ANC youth, so then he was attacked?
MR MAKUME: I believe so.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it according to you as you indicated, that every Monday you will hold meetings, was it the policy of the Youth League that everybody who was opposed to the Youth League of the ANC at that time, was to be attacked or what? What was the position?
MR MAKUME: Well like I said that there was the supporter of the SANCO, dominated by the ANC Youth League, I think the researches that I made afterwards was very negative towards the decision made the said leaders. That is why at the ultimate point I decided not to follow them anymore, but to join the PAC, because for me it doesn't make any sense if we are going to fight each other as a former liberation movement in the township instead of facing the enemy.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Chairperson, I'll move to the next incident if the Committee has no questions on this one.
Now Mr Makume, was it the only incident whilst you were still an ANC member or supporter of SANCO?
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's move now to the next incident, the first incident whilst you were a member of the PAC. Can you tell, was it - did it involve the stealing of a firearm in the depot?
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it the first incident?
MR MAKUME: Yes, it was.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that incident, what happened, how did you come up with that idea, or who came up with that idea and how many were you.
MR MAKUME: In the late '91, Mr Tebogo, one of the SANCO leaders encouraged the youth that we should join the then South African Defence Force, during the CODESA negotiations in the country, so that we can come back with the necessary information if it comes to a push and so that the attacks could be possible for the masses. So I went to the Army with the same understanding, but my unfortunate is that I was not matured enough maybe to hide or to keep it secret that I'm here as a time-bomb in the South African Defence Force. So my superiors detected it in advance that I'm seen by some people in the township, I don't know how.
Then what really happened is that they ...(indistinct) again, because I was the only guy from the Vaal Triangle, in the Northern Cape, and then for that reason they only sent me to detention barracks because "ek was die hardegat". So when I was in the detention barracks, that is where I got even time to read about APLA material, as much as the PAC itself. So when I went out of detention barracks I was welcomed back to the unit that I served in, that is 97 Ammunition Depot, based in De Aar, and I started now stealing ammunition and hiding them somewhere so that, where it will be possible for me to get them out of the unit. And then the only objective was to further the aims and objectives of APLA, of which it was during the ...(indistinct) operation, if I'm not mistaken.
ADV SANDI: During the what?
MR MAKUME: The Great Storm operation.
ADV SANDI: What storm, Crate Storm?
MR MAKUME: Great Storm operation, yes.
MR MAKUME: How do you spell that?
MR MAKUME: G-r-e-a-t.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct that as a result you were dismissed from the South African Defence Force?
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And now what did you do after your dismissal from the South African Defence Force?
MR MAKUME: Well after a few weeks, if not a month, I went back using the same uniform, camouflage and everything, and I got in the very, inside the very Army unit and then I went straight to the same place where I used to hide the ammunition. I found ammunition, I carried them to another point where I knew exactly that I'm going to get some firearms.
So I reached a point and found one of our members, he was asleep, if I may phrase it in that way, because he didn't even realised that he was under a fire. I was carrying a knife, as to protect myself during that attack, but unfortunately he didn't wake. I ...(indistinct) that R4 assault rifle, then I left.
So I succeeded in the whole attack. I struggled with transport until I reached Zamdela. That was the first firearm I won and then I then organised the youth and recruited them in attacking even more police stations and farmers, mainly white farmers.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee, how many arms did you get there? Was it only an R4 rifle or ammunition? How many did you get from that depot?
MR MAKUME: It was only that R4, because the place that I thought that I will win even more was locked and it was so well secured, so I targeted somebody who was on patrol.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now after the ammunition deport incident, what other incident were you involved in?
MR MAKUME: After recruiting a youth, our next, my next operation I was directly as a leader by then, it was the one based in Kragbron. Kragbron is a suburb around Sasolburg, so there was a dog unit which was even forced to be closed down after that attack where we won a number of firearms, including ammunition.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How many firearms, and how did you attack it, did you fire at them, was there anybody injured or killed in the process? How did you go about winning these firearms or taking these guns?
MR MAKUME: That was the first and the last one during that time. Then we went back and I even reported the operation to my then leader, Mr Kumane, that no, the mission is successful. He did not instruct us as such, but he only appreciated that well done guys, it's good for the PAC if the youth is getting involved in the operations of this nature, more especially.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now was there any other unit again which went to Kragbron? Or members of your unit?
MR MAKUME: I'm not sure, but while I was in jail there was a rumour that there has been a white kombi from Heilbron in the Free State which was there, for what purpose I'm not sure, but I cannot witness that.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can we move then to the other incident, Mr Cronje's incident.
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that.
MR MAKUME: Mr Cronje's incident, yes it was the last op, I mean attack ...(end of side A of tape). We were in - we were running the shortage the transport, now we were looking for transport also and more arms. So we then - I then decided to attack Mr Cronje, because I grew up in his farm and then as a result I even knew that he's got a number of these rifles because he used to shoot during the night. So my only understanding is that Mr Cronje has a number or automatic rifles. So we then launched the attack against Mr Cronje and then we won rifles. We used his car when we go back to Sasolburg, but the car was confiscated by the cops at the very same time, then we ran away.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what happened to Mr Cronje when you arrived at his farm? How many were you when you went there?
MR MAKUME: It was myself, Kyhithla Hani(?) and Meketsi Tchabedi, as one of my trainees. Then we arrived at round about 9 o'clock in the morning, Sunday morning, then we found his domestic worker and asked where is Mr Cronje. She was really scared and then she nearly fell down the way she was scared, but we tried to cool her down, then finally she showed us where Mr Cronje is together with his visitors.
So for the fact that we were already there we then decided to attack them. It happened that we popped in the house while he was sitting with visitors watching the TV, and then we declared it as an attack. They surrendered and then we locked them inside the toilet. There were so many of them.
Then we took Mr Cronje to places where we think the arms might be, then he showed us the arms. We took arms, I'm not sure about the number but there were more than five, these rifles. Then afterwards - we even won some petty cash together with those arms in the safe and then we took his Toyota Venture and then he drove it by himself, then we left.
ADV SANDI: How much was this?
MR MAKUME: Pardon, Your Honour?
ADV SANDI: The money, how much was it? You said you got some petty cash.
MR MAKUME: Money was, if not five, it was R550, but it was so many loose count.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you then tell the Committee about the other incident, the burning of the prison and the ...(indistinct)
JUDGE MOTATA: Before he gets to that, Mr Mbandazayo, I don't know if this is an appropriate time to raise this, he said after attacking the Berlina coal mine, it's when the Cronjes were attacked, did I hear you correctly?
MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.
JUDGE MOTATA: Tell us about the Berlina coal mine attack.
MR MAKUME: I had an information from a certain guy from ...(indistinct) that there's a security office in Berlina coal mine based in Sasolburg, where we can find ourselves even more firearms. So time went on, I decided that this is the turn now for Berlina coal mine. Then we set the date and we agreed upon it with Meketsi Tchabedi and Bogo Molawa.
So one day/night we attacked the same security office. We found a security guard who claimed that he really don't know where keys are for the rest of the firearms and then at the very same time he was carrying none of those firearms, he was just a mere security guard in that guard office or guard room, but he told us that his senior officer will arrive, might arrive any time because it was too late, it was midnight. That is when we searched the whole place, we did not find any of those firearms and then we waited till such time that the senior officer arrived.
So the senior officer had then to arrive. He did not realise that there are people inside the same office, he just popped in, then after then we closed the door, then I pointed him with the firearm, the R4 I was carrying. I'm sorry, Your Honour, it was not the R4, it was the Z88 that - no, it was the pistol that we won in Kragbron dog unit. And then I instructed Meketsi Tchabedi to search this senior officer. That is where we confiscated the Z88 pistol from the same senior officer.
So we did ask him about keys and so on, but unfortunately the mine workers detected that there's something happening, taking place in the office, they could realise it through the windows. So I realised that should we waste even more time here, these people might phone the cops and then we might get easily arrested.
So we then left together with this senior officer. Their emotions were very high, they wanted to take him to the township, but now they failed to answer me for what good reason, what are you going to do with him. So we took him - he took us half a way to the township from the mine, then I release him, I personally release him. It was in winter, if I'm not mistaken, then I took his jacket. So we only took the pistol together with his jacket and then I released him, then he went back to the mine.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to his car, was he driving his car when he took you halfway?
MR MAKUME: No, no, we were just running, four of us, because it is something that 500 metres from that coal mine to the township. It's not so far.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now can you tell us what happened in prison, the burning of the prison.
MR MAKUME: Well during the election period, the first one in 1994, the then National Party Government denied the inmates using the rights of voting and then as a leader of the branch, because I established a branch, a PAC branch in prison there, we then met and decided to follow or to support our fellow inmates in Port Elizabeth. 21 of them died in the same incident. They burnt the cell and they got burnt also there, 21 of them. Then the following day we said, it was on the 18th if not the 21st of - just early '94, I'm not quite sure about the date now, so we did the same thing, we burnt the property. We did not lose any of us. The only thing that happened is the discrepancies that occurred among us as to, "you influence us on doing this, now we got injured", because when the prison warders came, they assaulted some of us. So those are the same people who pointed fingers upon one and so on.
So the case went to the Court and the Court dismissed it due to the fact that they already assaulted us, so there's no way we can get punished for that state, for that damage in that State property.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct to say that the only incident in which you were convicted of was the one raid, ammunition depot?
MR MAKUME: Pardon?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that you were only convicted for the raid at the ammunition depot where you stole the firearm, the R4? Were you convicted and sentenced for that incident? Which incident were you convicted and sentenced for?
MR MAKUME: I think you are not right. The incident which led me to prison is the one of Mr Cronje.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. You were convicted for that incident and sentenced to eight years imprisonment?
MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And you have been subsequently released.
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say you were released in April?
MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that the other incident in which you are applying for amnesty, you were never tried or convicted or sentenced for that?
MR MAKUME: Yes, I voluntarily confessed them after hearing about the existence as much as the importance of the TRC, but mainly the Amnesty Committee.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So the whole - with the exception of the Cronje incident, the other you came with the information voluntarily?
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Not because you were charged or you were once investigated about it?
MR MAKUME: No.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that is all at this stage. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van Rensburg, have you got any questions?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Indeed, Mr Chairman. I would like to ask for a short postponement or just a recess to be able to consult with my client just before I proceed to cross-examination.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll stand down briefly.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
PITSO GEORGE MAKUME: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van Rensburg?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Makume, it's my instructions that Mr Mahlatsi was never a member of AZAPO. You formally testified that it was decided to attach his butchery because he was a member of AZAPO and that is why he was attacked, but he told me that he was never a member of AZAPO and that he was in fact a member of the ANC. He also says that one of the leaders of the ANC Youth League, a person named Basie - do you know this person?
MR MAKUME: Can you call the name again.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Basie. Did you know a certain ANC Youth League leader that was called Basie, in Zamdela?
MR MAKUME: Yes, I know Basie Mguni, he's a brother to Pajani Mguni, if I'm not mistaken.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Was he also one of the leaders that gave instruction that Mr Mahlatsi's butchery should be attacked?
MR MAKUME: No, I'm not sure, I did not see.
MR VAN RENSBURG: You see Mr Makume, what I want to establish is, according to Mr Mahlatsi, he says that he was never a member of AZAPO and you stated that the reason for him being attacked was because he was a member of AZAPO, which he denies and he says in fact he was a member of the ANC at that stage. And he also says that often members of the ANC Youth League came to him for help and he assisted them with donations and bail money as well as transport at some stage, and he says that there could have been no misunderstanding as to a member of which party he was, because he was a member of the ANC and he supported them and also the Youth League, by these things that I've just mentioned, and still he was attacked and the reason was given that he was attacked because he was being a member of AZAPO, which he says was never the case.
MR MAKUME: Well I wouldn't deny the fact as such, Your Honour, but that is what I've been told. So on the same breath I would like to say, what I detected at the ultimate point is that we have been misled by the same leadership of the ANC. So that is the information that we got after that meeting, which stimulated our moral that we should attack the butcher, because the owner of the butcher was the member of the opposition party. So by then I did not have that much say on whatever level, the only thing I did is to follow the people and then took that part in the way I explained. So I cannot deny the fact that he was the member, but I did not carry any of that knowledge.
MR VAN RENSBURG: So you did not know that he was a member of the ANC?
MR MAKUME: No.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you never among the people that went to him for help?
MR MAKUME: No, I'm never one of them. Normally help such as transport and money, for whatever reason, it's initiated by the leadership, so I was never a part of the leadership.
MR VAN RENSBURG: You also mentioned that you often had a problem with transport, but still Mr Mahlatsi's van was taken out of the butchery or out of the premises and it was burnt after that, why was it burnt?
MR MAKUME: I never said I once had a problem with the transport, but the only thing that I said is that if you're involving money as much as transport, was the capacity of the leadership, so the leadership was only accountable for those initiatives. So the reason why I took part in the burning of the van, is the very one I already explained, that people from that organisation deserved to be, deserved the treatment of that kind, which I felt it was really unfair, but most importantly I realised that after the whole attack. That is why I did not stay longer in the ANC.
So like I mentioned a power struggle, it is clear that those guys were power mongers and then in a situation of that nature you cannot tell the people at the grass level the truth, you always tell them another side of the story, so that they can do whatever you like and to do, as leader.
MR VAN RENSBURG: And is it because of this incident that you left the ANC and joined the PAC?
MR MAKUME: Yes, Sir.
MR VAN RENSBURG: How money was taken from Mr Mahlatsi's butchery at that incident?
MR MAKUME: That I cannot tell, but I firmly believe that there is a money, because when we entered the store there is a number of youth which rushed to the counter and then opened it. What happened afterwards I was not a part of it, but you - and the part of those who penetrated to that van and then they push it out of the store and burn it, I cannot tell the ...(indistinct).
MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. If I can just come back to the Berlina incident. Just tell me exactly, did you think that there was a - who told you that there was a security office where there would be arms you could get hold of?
MR MAKUME: Well I'm not sure about the guy's names but he was well known as Bra Oupa from Matatie(?), but to my knowledge each and every mine has got the security with arms. My experience has confirmed it while I was working in a mine. I once worked in one of the mines in Westonaria, that's what I know. I mean it's common. So I only asked Bra Oupa whether, "Do you have the same office with the same arms?" He said yes and then I only asked the place and how to reach the place.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Did he tell you where the place was and where the office was?
MR MAKUME: Yes, he told me, but it seemed to me that we attacked the wrong office, because that was not the main gate, then we thought that was the main gate but it was a near gate, it was a near entrance to the hostels. So we should have attacked the main gate other side of the mine, so we did not reach that point. So that is why I think we won only one pistol and then we left.
MR VAN RENSBURG: The security person that you mentioned whose jacket you took and also whose pistol you took, he also tells me that it is policy at that specific mine that there aren't any armed guards at the mine and that they all - there are guards, security guards, but they are all unarmed. He was the only carrying a firearm because he was the head of the security and he came to see, to check on the guards during the night, and that there isn't such an office with rifles whatsoever, there just isn't such a place because the policy of the mine is that the guards are unarmed. They're not armed with rifles, anyhow.
MR MAKUME: The only information I have got by then is that if we can stress out point we might win yourself a key to those which will access us to those arms. Whether we will get the key, to whom, I did not know till such time the very security guard confessed that no, if we can wait, because he was afraid that might assault or injure him, he said, "No, you can only wait guys, then the senior officer might arrive at any time." That is when he arrived. So during his arrival the only thing that we asked him is the key, then he denied that he knows about keys, then we search him. That is when we won the pistol from him.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm asking this, it is my instructions that there is not a place where any arms are being kept at that specific mine. Is it not true that you only took a chance just to see, attack any of the security officers in the area of the mine and hope to find any firearms there, and that there was not such a person or any information that you got of a specific office, because there is not such a place in existence?
MR MAKUME: So it's clear that we got wrong information, but to my knowledge each and every mine or big companies, factories in Sasolburg in particular, you'll find every factory with its own security, but now that they have put this electric fence in place, there are no more securities, security personnel. So by then there was, there was, there was security personnel by then. That is why I knew that they are with arms.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you know personally, from your own personal knowledge that they did have arms?
MR MAKUME: Yes, I even know that the arms should be in the office, but unfortunately I did not know which side. So I thought that was the right office, so it was the wrong one.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Am I correct in saying that the only rifle or firearm that you got at this incident, was the one that you took off Mr Pieterse, who was the security person at that stage, the one that you took off him personally when he came, the same one that you asked for the key, was that the only firearm that you got hold of at that incident?
MR MAKUME: In that incident, yes.
MR VAN RENSBURG: And what did you do with this firearm?
MR MAKUME: After we win the firearm normally I reported it back to the branch leader, who is Mr Kumane, and then he did not want to keep it by then because we had a number of operations to launch, but at the ultimate point I handed it over to Kumane, after everything - I mean, after the last attack of Mr Cronje.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. Going back to Mr Cronje's incident, you mentioned that Mr Cronje and some of his visitors were in the house on the Sunday, is it not true that there was only one visitor and the rest of the people was his family with him in the house?
MR MAKUME: No, I grew up in that farm, I know the rest of the family. I cannot exactly tell how many visitors were there but it was more than one.
MR VAN RENSBURG: And is it also not true that one of the people that was in the room was a six year old boy of Mr Cronje, and that he was - there was a rifle held to his head?
MR MAKUME: Can you repeat the statement again please.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm asking, is it not true as well that there was also one of the other persons that was in the room with Mr Cronje, was his six year old son, he was six years old at that stage, and that there was a rifle held to his head?
MR MAKUME: Rifle on his head?
MR VAN RENSBURG: To the son's, to the six year old boy's head.
MR MAKUME: No.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Is that not true?
MR MAKUME: No, that's not true, but I remember a young boy was around.
MR VAN RENSBURG: You said there were five rifles confiscated from Mr Cronje.
MR MAKUME: Five what?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Five rifles.
MR MAKUME: Five rifles, possible more. There was plenty of them.
MR VAN RENSBURG: And what did you do to Mr Cronje after you took the rifles?
MR MAKUME: Well we pushed him into the car and he asked where are we taking him, then I said personally that he's taking us halfway to Kroonstad. I did not want to tell exactly where we're coming from, the township. Then we left. But he drove the car personally, then we were just about to approach the township, still he was to be maybe killed or burnt possibly, but every time I felt shame for these people I release them along the way. But I can imagine what could have happened to them, including the very guy from Berlina, if I did not release them. So the guys I was operating with every time I asked that we take these white guys together till the township. So killing, I mean burning was not the policy of the PAC, burning the body as such, but you can imagine what could have happened to them, because once they are in the township you cannot stop people from harassing them. So I just feel like releasing them every time along the way.
That is exactly what happened to Mr Cronje. We just left him along the way and we left with his car. But the intention was not his car as such, we only used the car just to reach the two points in as quick as possible as we can. So that is why we left the car in the soccer sports, so that it can easily be confiscated by the police. And they got it the same day, the same time and same place that we left it.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. And lastly, I'd just like to put to you that it is the instructions of Mr Cronje that during this incident he says that you personally took the firearm and you held it against the six year old boy's head and that there could have been no gain politically whatsoever for you doing that because there was not a threat whatsoever from the boy and that they co-operated in every way that you asked them. That is the final statement I'd just like to put to you, what's your reaction to this?
MR MAKUME: Your Honour, that is an untruth statement, it's for the first time I hear of that. He didn't even raise it during the court hearing where I was sentenced up to eight years. It's for the first time I hear it.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Makume, I don't want to get into details about that, but I beg to differ from you on that point, it was raised during the trial. But I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I have a few questions, Chairperson.
Mr Makume, before you went to attack Mr Mahlatsi's butchery, how many people had attended this ANC Youth League where it was decided that he should be attacked?
MR MAKUME: I cannot exactly tell since I mentioned that this SANCO meetings were normally dominated by the ordinary residents who affiliated under the same SANCO, but SANCO's, I mean the ANC Youth League dictated the terms for the SANCO, so I cannot exactly tell how many ANC Youth League were there, because even myself I was not the ANC Youth Member by then, but I found myself supporting those activities because the ANC were dictating terms for us even in the meeting, even outside the meetings. So if I can estimate people who attack that butchery can be 15 if not 20, because all attacks took place after the dismissal of the meeting.
MS MTANGA: Okay. You just stated that the ANC dictated this information or these instructions to you at that time, were you not supporting what the ANC stood for at that time? Even on the day you went to attack Mr Mahlatsi, were you not supporting what the ANC was saying at that time, that's the ANC Youth League?
MR MAKUME: Yes, I was.
MS MTANGA: Did you ever see Mr Mahlatsi in ANC meetings?
MR MAKUME: No, I did not see Mr Mahlatsi in ANC meetings.
MS MTANGA: Between the ANC and AZAPO, which organisation dominated at Zamdela?
MR MAKUME: Well what I know is that the AZAPO was so strong in Zamdela and then it also contributed a lot in the struggle of Zamdela, but at the end of the day we were forced to leave the township by the ANC. So I can say they equally donated, the same way.
MS MTANGA: In respect of the Cronje attack or robbery, on page 19 of the bundle, that is the typed version of your affidavit, you state that some of the money that you got from the Cronjes you used for your travel arrangements to Cape Town, where you were to get more ...(indistinct) and handgrenades.
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MS MTANGA: Who was your contact person in Cape Town?
MR MAKUME: Well I did not have a person in Cape Town, but I had an information that somewhere in Khayelitsha there is a place of that nature.
MS MTANGA: Of what nature?
MR MAKUME: Where I can get even more arms and handgrenades, more especially exchanging. You know, when after winning arms this side you take them that side and you come back with arms from that side, so that you can't get easily arrested. So I was on the way to change whatever arms I won this side that side, so that I can further the operation.
MS MTANGA: Did you go to Cape Town, to Khayelitsha?
MR MAKUME: No.
MS MTANGA: And then what happened to the money that you were going to use to go to Cape Town with?
MR MAKUME: I used the money to go to Bloemfontein and Botshabelo, because to me the money was not enough to reach that point, more especially with illegal arms. So I used the money for going to Bloemfontein and Botshabelo, even return from that place.
MS MTANGA: What were you going to do in Bloemfontein and Botshabelo?
MR MAKUME: Well I was looking for the same place, because what I knew is that there was plenty of APLA cadres in the Eastern Free State.
MS MTANGA: If you were working with this Mr Makume, why wasn't he supplying you with the equipment that you needed, like the handgrenades?
MR MAKUME: I think I was really not interested in contact of any nature with this fellow comrade of mine in the township, indeed I operated in very harsh or difficult conditions because remember I said I was serving as a military man and on the other side furthering the objectives of this liberation movement, so you cannot just get involved with these guys in the township. At the very same time you cannot convince or persuade them that are you not a spy, are you not maybe a State agent or whatsoever, so I only trained these guys secretly and we just carry on with the operations.
MS MTANGA: Were you recruited by Mr Makume into the PAC?
MR MAKUME: Mr Kumane.
MS MTANGA: Sorry, Mr Kumane.
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MS MTANGA: And you're saying to us today that you were not in contact with him, you were just working on your own?
MR MAKUME: No, not with him as such, but I mean with the rest of the youth in the township. Kumane understood my conditions because he is my relative and he knew me for quite a long time, but I thought the entire supporters or the members will not have the same understanding as Kumane. So that is why I decided to do my thing on my own.
MS MTANGA: When did you join the PAC, Mr Makume?
MR MAKUME: In 1993.
MS MTANGA: When in '93?
MR MAKUME: Your Honour, I'm mistaken, it's 1992, I'm sorry. It's 1992.
MS MTANGA: So you were already a member of the PAC when you were in the Army?
MR MAKUME: Yes.
MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. The Panel got any questions?
JUDGE MOTATA: No, I don't.
ADV SANDI: No, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makume, you're excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead on this matter, I had hoped, unfortunately Gen Fihla had to leave, he wanted to, but his time was up, he had to leave early. He wanted to give evidence on the aspect of the Great Storm in 1993, what it meant, but since he's no longer here Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That's the case for the applicant. Mr van Rensburg, are you going to lead any evidence?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, I've got nothing further to say, my instructions are just to leave the matter in the hands of the Committee to decide. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Ms Mtanga, are you presenting any evidence?
MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson, I am not.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you want to address us please?
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes, Chairperson.
Chairperson, briefly, the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson, is clear that what he did was in support of PAC objective. I will start Chairperson, with the other incidents, the last one which one is the only one when he was in ANC camp. He was in support of the PAC objectives.
Chairperson, if one would follow and look at his actions and the targets, Chairperson, one would say, though Chairperson, I'm not an expert on that, that's why I wanted Gen Fihla, would say that if you look that his first action was to go to the military base, military camp where he was employed and he took a firearm, the next target of his was Police Dog Unit and also was also mine security, though by his own admission he attacked a wrong place because he thought that it was a security office, and the other point was Cronje's farm which he was eventually arrested and was sentenced for it.
Now Chairperson, if you look at that and you take into account all the hearings which were involving PAC/APLA activities, you would see that, Chairperson, there's nothing which Mr Makume has done which was outside what PAC and APLA was doing. Their target has -if you look at the affidavit of Phila Dolo, was that South African Defence Force, South African Police Service and reservists in general, the farmers and the white homes which they regarded as garrisons of apartheid. And if one takes that into account that which they regarded as bastions and minions of the then erstwhile regime, if you look at that in that context and look at what Mr Makume's targets were, you would definitely, Chairperson, agree with me that it was in line because all of them were policemen, police and farmers which were the targets, Chairperson.
And if the Committee agrees with me, that that argument that the targets of Mr Makume were in line with the APLA and PAC policy, then what Mr Makume was doing was in support of PAC. As he indicated that he was a soldier and he was recruited by his relative and he recruited people and trained certain people and he did not want to mix with others, because of course they were regarded with scepticism, that there's a possibility he may be coming to infiltrate them or luring them to these activities. So he had to be cautious of what he was doing, not to be involved with many people. So he had to deal with a certain few people.
Then Chairperson, it's therefore my submission that Mr Makume fulfils all the requirements of the Act in that regard. That what he did was a member of the PAC and what he did was in support of PAC and APLA policies and he genuinely believed that what he was doing was in support of the liberation struggle at that time. And therefore it's my submission and my humble submission that he should be granted amnesty as applied for, with regard to these incidents.
And also Chairperson, there is also this incident, or he has already admitted that it was thrown out of court, that at the time when they were in prison they had to fight for the question of the voting rights of the prisoners at that time, though ...(indistinct) has thrown it out of court, Chairperson. I think also it has political connotation, though at the time one would not say whether what he was doing was on behalf of any political organisation, except that he was taking up the rights of the prisoners.
But Chairperson, one other aspect I would like to bring to the Committee, that the honesty which he displayed in this Committee, he concedes on some of the aspects, he did not want to try and mislead the Committee that he knows much or this was done because he was given an order by so and so and all such things, he just became honest to the Committee and told them that, look I took my own initiative. And one, if you look at the year of the Great Storm, that's what Gen Fihla wanted to, though it has been explained in many a times that the year of the Great Storm is where the PAC wanted the masses to participate and take their own initiative and taking the struggle the regime and its supporters. So if then you take that in context, all that in context, you will definitely - Mr Makume's action fell within that, within that scope.
And also that, Chairperson, he came out, he was never, except the Cronje, none of this he was arrested for, nobody knows that he was involved, he is the person who was involved in these things. He voluntarily came up with this information, nobody knew that he was involved. So, Chairperson, I would like also that the Committee will take that into account.
Now coming to the first incident which involved Mr Mahlatsi, he openly told the Committee that he was part of the mob, he followed what was being done and without questioning that and he also believed at that time, because he was told that Mr Mahlatsi is a member of AZAPO. And he conceded under cross-examination that he can't dispute that he was not a member of AZAPO, he was a member of the ANC, and also that what they were told was wrong. He also concedes to that. And also he himself admits that after he left he discovered that it was just question of power struggle and that they were being used, but they were not told as masses, because they would never have done that if they knew what was the genuine reason for that. They have to be told what they know, that he belonged to the camp, to the opposite camp which was their enemy, so that all of them should participate in those activities.
And as such, Chairperson, it is my submission that also on this aspect he should be granted amnesty, because at the time he was involved in the burning of Mr Makume's(sic) motor car and also involved in his business, as he was part of the crowd also. He genuinely believed that he was participating in a genuine thing that Mr Mahlatsi belonged to the opposite camp, he was a part of the enemy camp, so he has to be destroyed because he believed to that enemy camp. And therefore, Chairperson, it's my submission that what he believes then, that what he was doing was genuine, should be taken into account more than what transpired thereafter, that indeed it was something else or a certain agenda of certain people.
Therefore, Chairperson, it's my submission that also on this aspect, Mr Makume has met all the requirements of the Act regarding to that aspect and he should be granted amnesty as applied for. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. I don't know if you want to add anything further, Mr van Rensburg.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I've got nothing thank you, Chairperson.
NO ARGUMENT BY MR VAN RENSBURG
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.
MS MTANGA: I have no submissions to make, Chairperson.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume you won't have anything further that you want to say.
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you very much, that concludes the testimony and the formalities in regard to this application. The Panel will take time to consider the matter and will endeavour to formulate a decision in the matter as soon as circumstances permit. We will notify the parties as soon as the decision is available, so the decision would be reserved.
Mr van Rensburg, I don't know if you've got any other matters before us.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, no, this is the only one I've got.
CHAIRPERSON: Then I would like to extend a word of thanks to you on behalf of the Panel, for your assistance and for being willing to come to the aid of the victims at such very short notice. Yes, as I've said, we appreciate your assistance in this matter and for being prepared to come into the matter under some pressure and for being able to have accommodated us under those circumstances, and to your clients as well for having attended the matter.
Over and above what was said in the evidence, we have most of the other documentation that bears on the matter, so we can just indicate to the victims that we're aware of the extent of what happened, the extent of damage and loss suffered and so on, so we've got all of that information before us, which we would reconsider when we are formulating our decision. So we believe that we are in a fair position to reflect the extent of these incidents in the decision which we will be formulating, but once again, thank you very much.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That is our roll for the day. And the remaining matter on the roll will be rolled over until tomorrow, Ms Mtanga? I think Mr Mbandazayo is involved.
MS MTANGA: Yes, that's the Masilo application which will be heard tomorrow with the application of Maseko.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Well thank you very much, we will now adjourn and we will reconvene in this venue tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
