Amnesty Hearings

ALPHEUS MANDLAGASI LANGA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, may I be allowed to just clear up some small thing with Mr ...(inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Langa, I would like to show you an affidavit that you made to the Police on this incident of the 8th October 1989 and I would like you to confirm whether you recall making this affidavit to the Police. Chairperson, that would be the hand-written statement, it's on page 33 and the typed one is on page 31 of the bundle.

Mr Langa, do you know this applicant, Mr Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Mr Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: We are neighbours back home.

MS MTANGA: When you say back home do you mean Nqutu, back home at Nqutu?

MR LANGA: Yes I'm referring to Nqutu.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Sikakane whom he has referred to as the person who ordered him to come and attack you at your house? Do you know this Sikakane that he is referring to?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Sikakane?

MR LANGA: Sikakane also he is my neighbour back home at Nqutu.

MS MTANGA: Is this - the first name of this Sikakane is he Ngalelo?

MR LANGA: Ngalelo.

MS MTANGA: Sikakane, that's the person we're talking about?

MR LANGA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu has testified that the reason that you were attacked on the 8th October was because of your involvement as an ANC member in the killing of his two relatives. Do you have any knowledge of the killings of Sikakane's two relatives?

MR LANGA: No, no idea at all.

MS MTANGA: You did indicate that you all come from Nqutu. Are you saying to this Committee you heard nothing about the death of the relatives of Ngalelo Sikakane that took place just before you were attacked?

MR LANGA: I only know Mr Sikakane and his mother because back home we are neighbours and I don't know of any two relatives which he lost.

MS MTANGA: Do you know of any incident where Mr Sikakane himself was attacked near his place of work?

MR LANGA: No.

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa, in 1989 or just before this incident, did you belong to any political organisation? If so, what organisation was that?

MR LANGA: No, at the time I was not a member. I only became a member of a political organisation just towards the elections.

MS MTANGA: Did you associate with any people who were then regarded as comrades, that is in 1989?

MR LANGA: No, I wasn't.

ADV SANDI: Did you belong to any trade union at work?

MR LANGA: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Did you belong to any trade union at work?

MR LANGA: Yes I was a member of COSATU at work.

MS MTANGA: Was there an incident at work or a work related incident where your union, that is COSATU, was in confrontation with Sikakane or any member of his family?

MR LANGA: No.

MS MTANGA: Where did you work at that time?

MR LANGA: I was working in Wellington at a cementation in Boksburg.

MS MTANGA: And where did Umgalalo Sikakane work at that time?

MR LANGA: Even though I'm not certain but I do not know that he was working in a certain firm even though I've no idea what that firm was doing.

MS MTANGA: Did you at that time know where Mr Sikakane lived in Vosloorus? Did you know where he stayed at that time?

MR LANGA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Where did he stay?

MR LANGA: In a hostel which was predominantly Zulu. I used to see him there.

MS MTANGA: How far was this hostel from your house?

MR LANGA: I'm just estimating it as six kilometres. It can be more or less.

MS MTANGA: You say you used to see Mr Sikakane around. At the time you saw each other did you chat with him? Were you on a friendly basis with him, with Mr Sikakane?

MR LANGA: Yes we were and then later there were faction fights back home.

MS MTANGA: When did these faction fights come to your attention? Was it just before the incident or was it earlier, in early 1989?

MR LANGA: These faction fights took place in 1989 and then they came and they started fighting or spreading these fights here in Johannesburg.

MS MTANGA: Do you know what was the cause of these faction fights?

MR LANGA: No, I do not know. All I know is that they were fighting and since they also knew me, probably that's why I was targeted as an enemy as well.

MS MTANGA: You said even though you - am I correct to say that even though you came from Nqutu, you actually had a house in Johannesburg at Vosloorus, you didn't stay at Nqutu?

MR LANGA: I was working here in Johannesburg. My mother was in Nqutu and we also had a house back home where my mother was residing.

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa, I just want to draw your attention to an affidavit made by a policeman, a Constable Khumalo. Do you know this constable who was involved in this case at the time that took place at your house? Do you know Khumalo?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Khumalo?

MR LANGA: He is an SAP in Vosloorus.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware or are you aware now that he also comes from Nqutu?

MR LANGA: Yes because he was my school mate as well.

MS MTANGA: In his affidavit, I will read it from paragraph 4, page 16. I want you to comment as to whether do you know of the facts he has deposed to. He stated that

"Accused number 1, Ngalelo Sikakane's two brothers were murdered at Vosloorus and Boksburg respectively."

You've already indicated that you know nothing about this incident, am I correct? You know nothing about the brothers of Sikakane who died?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MS MTANGA: He went on to state that Ngalelo and his friends now are forcing the community of Hesakius Sikakane to go and fight in revenge of Ngalelo's brothers. Do you know about this, that Sikakane was organising people to go and revenge the killing of his brothers? Do you know about that?

MR LANGA: No.

MS MTANGA: You didn't know about it?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know anything.

MS MTANGA: Did you know about any plot to kill anyone who refused to participate in the revenge attacks?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MS MTANGA: Did you subsequently learn why you were attacked by Sikakane?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know why I was attacked.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I thought you said at that time you thought you were attacked because you also came from Nqutu and there were these problems at Nqutu, factions fights and all that?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may just correct something? I think he answered my question incorrectly. He thought I was referring to the attack on the Sikakanes. So his response was he doesn't know who attacked them, not why they were attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you repeat the question so that he understands it. You want to hear from him why he thinks he was the victim, possible victim?

MS MTANGA: Mr Langa, I want to know why were you - do you finally know why were you personally attacked in 1989 by Sikakane and his friends?

MR LANGA: I do not know, that is why I need to know this from the applicant.

MS MTANGA: Earlier on you indicated that the only reason you knew of was that there were faction fights back at home in Nqutu?

MR LANGA: What I've said here it's my speculation and what I've heard from other people but I don't know it for a fact.

MS MTANGA: Are you able to tell the Committee what faction groups were fighting? Why would you have been attacked by them or did you belong to a faction group that was different from them and how would you become a victim of the attack? Was it because of your affiliation at home or the area that you lived in? Why would they consider you an enemy?

MR LANGA: I wasn't one of the group members.

MS MTANGA: Did you belong to a faction that back at home would have been targeted by the Sikakanes?

MR LANGA: Yes it may have happened that way because we were in one area back home.

MS MTANGA: Did you know at that time which groups were fighting back at Nqutu?

MR LANGA: The people who were fighting targeted those who didn't want to be involved in the fights.

MS MTANGA: So were you one of the people who refused to be involved in the faction fights?

MR LANGA: Yes, I didn't want to get involved because I had no idea why they were fighting. In fact even Mr Cebekhulu was not my enemy.

ADV BOSMAN: Who asked you to get involved in the fighting here in Johannesburg?

MR LANGA: I didn't quite follow your question, would you please repeat it for me?

ADV BOSMAN: You said that they wanted you to participate in the fighting, in the faction fighting. Now who told you to participate in the faction fighting and who did you tell you will not participate in the faction fighting?

MR LANGA: Cebekhulu and his group.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Cebekhulu personally, is this - I can't pronounce the name, Zwelakhe, did he tell you to get involved?

MR LANGA: Yes it is so.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Ms Mtanga, you may proceed.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you know Madoda Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: Yes I do know him.

MS MTANGA: Do you know if in 1989 he belonged to any political organisation?

MR LANGA: No, there were no political organisations in the area.

MS MTANGA: How do you know Madoda Cebekhulu?

MR LANGA: He was also targeted by these people. They wanted to kill him.

MS MTANGA: When you say he was targeted by these people you're referring to Sikakane and his group, Ngalelo Sikakane and his group, am I correct?

MR LANGA: Yes, they wanted to kill Madoda.

MS MTANGA: Do you know why they wanted to kill him?

MR LANGA: Just like myself, there's no valid reason except to say he didn't want to participate in these faction fights.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Langa, the person that got killed in your house, who was he? Was he living with you, was he visiting? How did he get onto the scene?

MR LANGA: He was my friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come to visit you?

MR LANGA: He usually came to visit me because we were also working together.

CHAIRPERSON: And the lady that got shot in the face, did she live there or how did she land up on the scene?

MR LANGA: She was my neighbour, she came to visit me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Langa, you say that you were a member of COSATU at work. Did you have any position at this union?

MR LANGA: No, I didn't.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you attend meetings of the union?

MR LANGA: I attended meetings inside the firm not outside the firm.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the applicant, Mr Cebekhulu, here today, before this incident in 1989, did you have any problems with him back home regarding faction fights, that he personally was involved in any faction fight?

MR LANGA: There were fights back home and since I was not participating in those fights I didn't think that I had an enemy.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You lived here in Vosloorus. Is it correct you didn't really know what all the fights were about in your homeland, you didn't know what sort of faction fights were going on there?

MR LANGA: The only information which I could acquire was through telephone when I was contacting my mother and my mother will tell me that there were faction fights.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Anything else from the Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: When did you first come to Johannesburg, Mr Langa?

MR LANGA: Somewhere in 1985.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you came to Johannesburg had the faction fighting been going on in Nqutu?

MR LANGA: No, it was before.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever talk about your COSATA membership with Ngalelo?

MR LANGA: No, we never discussed it at all.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he know that you were a member of COSATU?

MR LANGA: No, he didn't know that. Ngalelo is also my uncle even though I don't know why I was targeted to be killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did he work?

MR LANGA: He was working in Boksburg even though I do not know the company he was working in.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know whether he was a trade union member?

MR LANGA: No, I don't know.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

Do you know if he belonged to any political organisation, Ngalelo?

MR LANGA: I really don't know.

ADV SANDI: When he came to ask you to be involved in the faction fights that were taking place back at home did he tell you why he was asking you to do so?

MR LANGA: I am saying this because there are numerous others who were staying here. Many people were fleeing our home town because they didn't want to get involved in the faction fights.

ADV SANDI: Yes but I thought you said he was asking you to be involved in the faction fights?

MR LANGA: No, I did not say that.

ADV SANDI: Who was this person who was asking you to be involved in the faction fights?

MR LANGA: I was never informed that I should go and participate in the faction fights.

ADV SANDI: Your standpoint about these faction fights, did you convey that to anyone the fact that you were not interested to take part in these faction fights. Did you tell anyone about that?

MR LANGA: No. No, I did not tell anyone.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

Mr Langa, I just want to clear up something. Earlier on in your testimony you indicated that the reason, the only reason that you could have been attacked by Sikakane and his group was because you refused to involve yourself in the fight, is that not correct?

MR LANGA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: You further on said that even Madoda Cebekhulu had the same problem with the Sikakanes, he had refused to participate in the fights, is that correct?

MR LANGA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: That is the reason why they wanted to kill you?

MR LANGA: That is correct, I assume so because I was not part of these factions.

MS MTANGA: And then one last question, Mr Langa, the group that came to your house to attack you on that day, did all those people come from Nqutu? Did you recognise them as people who were all coming from Nqutu? That is your home boys?

MR LANGA: Two of them who entered, Ngalelo and his son, I think Cebekhulu then came and they said I should come outside and talk to them. I realised that they were going to kill me and then I went to the bedroom.

MS MTANGA: So there were three people who came into your house that you saw were people from Nqutu? It's people you knew back from home?

MR LANGA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

ADV SANDI: This incident, did you ever see the applicant around at Vosloorus?

MR LANGA: No, I saw him the last time when he came to shoot.

ADV SANDI: How would you describe the relationship between yourself and the applicant, were you on friendly terms?

MR LANGA: It's very difficult to say whether I would forgive him or not because he still maintains that the shooting was politically motivated yet that is not the case. These people were just involved in faction fighting and not anything political and it therefore becomes very difficult for me to say I can forgive him because should he be granted amnesty he might come after me.

ADV SANDI: I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not talking about forgiving the applicant and all that but I'm talking about 1989. Were you on friendly terms with him, the applicant?

MR LANGA: Are you saying before the fights? Yes before the faction fights we were on speaking terms.

ADV SANDI: When the faction fights started back at home were you still on speaking terms with the applicant?

MR LANGA: You see I was working, I was employed, but then there were people who were coming from home with a mission to kill.

ADV SANDI: Did you know him to be a member or supporter of the IFP, that is the applicant?

MR LANGA: No I did not know that.

ADV SANDI: Would you dispute that if he says he was a member of the IFP?

MR LANGA: I would not because he is saying what he knows, what he feels.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Langa, thank you, you are excused. Is that the case?

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, that's my case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen, on the merits?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. It's submitted on behalf of the applicant that his application complies with all the requirements in terms of the Act. The applicant made full disclosure of all the facts. He took full responsibility for the deeds he committed. He told the Committee how he killed the first Xhosa man and the reasons therefore. It seems to be partly revenge and the other reason that he's given is that that man was pointed out amongst the deceased as well as to others, were pointed out to him at Score Metals and he was also told by his uncle and Mr Khumba that those people were members of the ANC.

As far as the second incident is concerned, he testified that the people or the house as such was pointed out to him by Mr Sikakane who indicated that all the people who resided in that house were ANC members. The reason he was given to go for the attack was the fact that Mr Sikakane was attacked before by a group of people. The applicant conceded and said it might very well be that in the end it turned out to have something to do with a faction fight but he said that he didn't know about it. Even if it could have been the position he was told that it was to do with the ANC/IFP fight. It is clear from this last witness who was also residing in Gauteng that people here didn't necessarily know what all the fights back home were about and that is probably as far as I can take it and request the Honourable Committee to grant the applicant amnesty. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mtanga, any submissions?

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, I wish to oppose this application on the grounds that there was no political motive on the side of the applicant. Firstly, in respect of the incident that took place in Vosloorus at Mr Alpheus Mandlagasi's house, it is my submission that the evidence of Mr Alpheus Langa himself clearly shows that there was never any political background to this incident. This is also born by the fact a shown in the judgement where the Honourable Judge indicated that the source of the attack at the Langa house was the impis or the faction fights back at home at Nqutu.

Secondly, Chairperson, I would also like to refer the Committee to the statement made by a policeman, Constable Khumalo, who was not involved in this incident, who was not a victim in this incident but who also happened to come from Nqutu where the faction fights were taking place and in his statement he does refer to the fact that Sikakane had indeed lost two of his brothers and there was nothing political about the killing, no evidence was given about the reasons for the killing of the Sikakane brothers except that the attacks that were carrying on at the time, the first on which took place at Langa and another attack that took place on Matote Kulukulu where as a result of these two refusing to participate in the revenge attacks that Sikakane was organising against people who had killed his brothers.

Chairperson, these are the facts that I would like the Committee to consider as the source of this attack on the Langa family, that Mr Langa refused to participate in the revenge attacks against whoever had killed the Sikakane brothers.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Mtanga, if a person refuses something then surely there must have been some request? Now at first Mr Langa said yes, he was requested by Mkalewa to participate but afterwards he emphatically denied that anybody had ever requested him and here he was in Johannesburg, far removed from Nqutu. Nobody asked him to participate and yet he said he refused to. How do you reconcile that?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I understand the difficulty but it seems to me on the facts of this case that when these faction fights took place back at home or when such faction fights took place, it would be expected of the members from the community from those from Nqutu to participate and it was based on this expectation that he was attacked. The failure by him to participate in the attacks rendered him a victim to Sikakane and his group.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you then submitting, let's assume that he misunderstood my question although I repeated it twice, what do you suggest, why was a Xhosa man killed, he had nothing to do with faction fighting?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I didn't get your last question?

ADV BOSMAN: Why was he, in the first incident, why was a Xhosa man killed if he had nothing to do with the faction fighting? He couldn't have had anything to do with the faction fighting, he was not a Zulu?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may answer that question, the man that was killed at the Langa house was actually not a Xhosa man, he was a Zulu person coming from Kwa-Zulu Natal, a Mr Buthelezi.

ADV BOSMAN: But I'm referring, we have two incidents here and you say there's no political objective because it had to do with faction fighting. Now that may or may not be so in regard to the second incident at the Langa household but if there is some link between the two incidents, why was the Xhosa man killed? Would you say that you submitted there was no political objective? Why do you say that in respect of the first one and are you saying these two incidents are not related at all?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to submit that the two incidents were not related at all and my submission in respect of the killing of the Xhosa man who was said to have killed the uncle of the applicant is that it's not political because the applicant was revenging his uncle's death and that was his interest in the case and further to that, he clearly indicated that he was never ordered by his organisation, the IFP, to carry out this attack on this person, this unknown Xhosa man that he attacked. It's a decision he took on his own, to revenge his uncle and I specifically asked him, wasn't the reason to revenge and he admitted that, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, to conclude my submissions in respect of the attack on the Langa, I would like the Committee to consider the affidavit made by Mr Khumalo whom I would like to consider an independent witness in this incident even though his evidence is independent, even though we are unable to have him to testify today and on this basis, Chairperson, I would like to persuade the Committee not to grant amnesty to Mr Cebekhulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Ms van der Westhuizen, any reply?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: None, thank you.

NO REPLY BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, that concludes the evidence in this matter. The Panel will take time to consider the matter and to come to a decision when all of the parties with an interest would be notified once the decision is available. So the decision is reserved. We thank you for your assistance Ms van der Westhuizen. If you've got nothing else that you have to do then you would be excused as well.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll take the luncheon adjournment and we'll reconvene at two o'clock. Hopefully the victim in the Pahle matter - is it Pahle matter? Am I mistaken?

MS MTANGA: The Ndlovu matter.

CHAIRPERSON: The Ndlovu matter - would then be available?

MS MTANGA: Yes, they are already available, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, very well. Hopefully Mr Koopedi will also be available?

MS MTANGA: I will endeavour to contact him, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll adjourn.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS