MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: (affirmed states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Mncube, I'm showing to you page 12 of the bundle of documents which has an application form. Is this your application form?
MR MNCUBE: Yes, Sir, it is mine.
MR KOOPEDI: And at the end of that application which is at page 17 at the bottom, just above the word "Deponent", is that your signature?
MR MNCUBE: That's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm showing you now page 19 of the bundle of documents. This page 19 is a letter that goes up to page 22. Was this letter done by you, written by you?
MR MNCUBE: That's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And do you confirm the contents thereof?
MR MNCUBE: That's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time in question, that is the time when these landmines were laid, were you a member of any political organisation?
MR MNCUBE: I was a member of the African National Congress and its military wing, uMkhonto weSizwe.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training?
MR MNCUBE: I did receive military training in Angola and East Germany.
MR KOOPEDI: When did you join this ANC?
MR MNCUBE: I joined the ANC since 1979.
MR KOOPEDI: Where did you join is?
MR MNCUBE: While I was still inside the country, I joined the underground structures, then I left the country in 1980.
MR KOOPEDI: And went where?
MR MNCUBE: I went to Swaziland, Mozambique and to Angola.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard the evidence of your two co-applicants which is to the effect that you belonged to a unit of 12. Would you want to confirm that?
MR MNCUBE: Yes, I would like to confirm that.
MR KOOPEDI: Further evidence was given to the effect that upon infiltration, this group of twelve was split into two groups, the one group being commanded by Agrippa, the other group being commanded by Chilies. Can you confirm any of this?
MR MNCUBE: That's true.
MR KOOPEDI: And the group to which you belonged, who commanded it?
MR MNCUBE: It was commanded by Chilies.
MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Committee what your group did immediately upon entering South Africa, until you withdrew? What did you do?
MR MNCUBE: Well, our group had six landmines and they were all under the command of Chilies, as the person who was giving us instructions as to where we're going to lay the landmines, the area that he will point that the landmine must be laid, then we'll do so without questioning that. The area where these mines were planted, as my other colleagues have just said, it was an area which was said is a military area, Soutpansberg military area and they said there's a lot of military activity there.
MR KOOPEDI: Now these six mines, were they all planted?
MR MNCUBE: All six mines were planted.
MR KOOPEDI: After planting the six mines, what did your group do?
MR MNCUBE: Then we withdraw back to Zimbabwe.
MR KOOPEDI: At some stage you were arrested and in the Messina area, when was this? When were you arrested?
MR MNCUBE: Well I was arrested after the first mine incident, that was now in 1986 in December.
MR KOOPEDI: That would mean almost a year after the group of twelve ...(end of tape) I take it you had also, coming again as you did for the first time, illegally into the country?
MR MNCUBE: Ja.
MR KOOPEDI: Now were you alone when you came in at this stage?
MR MNCUBE: We were five when we came in for the second time and this time our Commander was Agrippa. We were tasked to come in and lay landmines more or less in the same area, more or less. I can't - because I'm not very familiar with the area but they were more or less in the same area, to lay landmines.
MR KOOPEDI: Now do you remember, can you recall the exact date, the date on which you came into the country?
MR MNCUBE: If I remember correctly, I think it was December 25, 1986 or it could be 24, somewhere there.
MR KOOPEDI: Now did you lay any landmines?
MR MNCUBE: Well we didn't lay any landmines.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you carry out any operation?
MR MNCUBE: The main thing was to come in and lay the landmines and we were told that we need to go at least about 20 to 30 kilometres inside the country before we can start laying the landmines and Agrippa, as the person who knew the area, was the one who was going to lead us to these areas. So unfortunately after we were inside the country, a farmer spotted us in one of the places where we were hiding and this farmer started shooting at us. Well, I'll call him a farmer today, but then we felt that he's one of the Commandos who was shooting at us, but at Court it transpired that he was a farmer.
Well, he was far from us when he started shooting, then we withdrew from that area where that shooting took place, then after an hour or two, then the military personnel with their helicopters were in the area now looking for us, that's when our shoot-out started between us and the military.
At the end of the day, three of my colleagues were killed in that shoot-out and I was captured in the evening, around six, though the first shoot-out started in the morning around five. The other, I learned later when I appeared in Court, he was also killed.
MR KOOPEDI: So in fact four of your colleagues were killed?
MR MNCUBE: Ja, were killed during the shoot-out.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay.
MR MNCUBE: Then after I was arrested by the military, by the soldiers, they handed me to the Special Branch, then the Special Branch, they started beating me, kicking me, then they used my shoelaces to tie my hands at my back and they put me in one of their vehicles with the corpses.
They transported me to an area where they off-loaded me from the back of the bakkie. They put me into another bakkie. Well, they were speaking in Afrikaans most of the time. Somewhere they stopped, they came at the back of the bakkie, then I was blindfolded all the time. The other person there he said to the other one: "No, let's take him through to some other place to kill him", then I knew that was going to happen, it's then when I started to loosen myself and I don't know what to say, fortunately or unfortunately, but I think it was fortunate for me that there was an AK47 at the back of a bakkie which was wrapped in a canvass. Then I took out that AK47 and I fired shots to both people who were transporting me and I escaped.
A couple of days later, because I could not get some water and I was hungry, I think it was nine days later when I came across a young girl. I asked some water from that person, the she said: "Okay, wait here", then she went inside the farm. Then she didn't come with water. Later I realised that actually the farmer himself phoned the police and I was picked up by the police and they took me to Messina police station, then at the end of the day I appeared in Court.
MR KOOPEDI: Other than this girl from whom you asked water, did you meet with any person?
MR MNCUBE: No.
MR KOOPEDI: During the time, that is after having escaped from the two police personnel that were with you?
MR MNCUBE: I didn't meet anyone then.
MR KOOPEDI: And this girl, what did she look like? Did she look like a military person, did she look like an ordinary person, what did she look like?
MR MNCUBE: Well to me she looked like an innocent person, I do not think that somehow was trained maybe to look after suspicious people, but after I asked her some water, I realised then that I think this girl was trained to look after suspicious persons and to report to the farmer, so I take it that that girl was part of their security systems, or something.
MR KOOPEDI: Now let's retreat a bit and go back to the landmines that were laid by your group of six.
MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, before that Mr Koopedi, I'm sorry, was this girl black or white?
MR MNCUBE: It was a black lady.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you talking about girl, what, five years old?
MR MNCUBE: I think she was around, I'm not sure really, but to me she looked like she was 16, 15, 16 or 17.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Let's go back to the mines that were laid by your group of six. Do you have any personal knowledge as to which mine detonated when and which mine killed or injured whom?
MR MNCUBE: I had no knowledge up until I appeared in Court and I was told that some of the landmines were detonated by the De Nysschen family, van Eck family, I think somebody, a truck driver or something, a black person also, but really then I didn't know which mine we laid as a group of six, killed who.
MR KOOPEDI: But however, is it correct to say that you take responsibility or you take yourself to be part of he group of twelve that laid the twelve landmines?
MR MNCUBE: Ja, since we operated more or less in the same area and there's - my other colleague said earlier on that we were briefed together as a big group, though at the end of the day we separated and I cannot say for sure what the other six group, what they did that other side, but the other group, my group where I was involved, I know for sure that this is what we did.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you found not guilty of the murder of the van Eck family?
MR MNCUBE: I was not found guilty.
CHAIRPERSON: Not found guilty, yes.
MR KOOPEDI: And I believe he was not charged with that, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you charged with the murder of the van Eck family?
MR MNCUBE: No, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.
MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: On this last question, Mr Mncube, you were in fact charged for all the landmines, if I reach the charge sheet in my bundle, from page 36 onwards, you were charged.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes it seems like both accused were charged with all the same offences right up to number 41.
MR WAGENER: That's right, but you were acquitted on a number of these charges.
MR MNCUBE: That's correct.
MR WAGENER: And you were convicted - and the charges that you were convicted on are those incidents referred to on page 20 when you were asked for further particulars.
"What do you apply for amnesty for?"
and there you stated the incidents that you applied for and those were the incidents where you were convicted, so you only ask for amnesty for those incidents, that's the way I read your application.
MR MNCUBE: Ja, that is including the landmines where I was involved.
MR WAGENER: Yes, but those were ones where you were convicted in a criminal Court.
MR MNCUBE: That's correct.
MR WAGENER: And those are the incidents that you set out on page 20 of the bundle.
MR MNCUBE: That's correct.
MR WAGENER: And that does not include, the way I understand the situation, you're not asking for amnesty for any of the landmines laid by the other group of six.
MR MNCUBE: Ja, the other group of six, I'm not asking amnesty for that because they acted independently under their own Commander.
MR WAGENER: Yes.
MR MNCUBE: Right and we have our own Commander this side.
MR WAGENER: Right.
MR MNCUBE: So that's why even at the end of the day the Court did not find me guilty of what happened on the other side, but found me guilty of what happened with the other six where I was involved.
MR WAGENER: Yes. No I wanted to clear a possible misunderstanding that you are only asking for amnesty for the incidents where you group of six, where that group was involved and not where the group of six of Mr Nondula was involved, you're not asking for that, that's the way I read your application.
MR MNCUBE: Because I was not involved with that.
MR WAGENER: Who were the members, who were the other members of your group of six?
MR MNCUBE: It was myself and Mbuli. The other four, I think they are late by now.
CHAIRPERSON: We know of Chilies and who else?
MR MNCUBE: I can't even remember their names.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what Chilies' real name was?
MR MNCUBE: No, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And Agrippa? Agrippa, do you know what his name was?
MR MNCUBE: No, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.
MR WAGENER: Who were the other members of the group of Agrippa apart from Mr Nondula?
MR MNCUBE: You mean the group that I was involved with?
CHAIRPERSON: The other group. We know that Agrippa was the Commander. We know that Mr Nondula was a member, do you know who the other four people were in the other group?
MR MNCUBE: No, I can't remember. I can't remember their names.
MR WAGENER: Do you know their MK names?
MR MNCUBE: I'm not sure if Terrence was in their group or in our group. He was in our group, ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Terrence?
MR MNCUBE: Ja, it's an MK name, that one.
MR WAGENER: Okay, I'll accept that you can't remember. Prior to this operation, did you group of twelve receive any training in landmines and how you should go about placing them or setting them?
MR MNCUBE: Yes, Sir, we did some ...(indistinct) before we came in the country.
MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?
MR MNCUBE: Sorry?
MR WAGENER: What was the nature of this training?
MR MNCUBE: I will say it was just a refresher training because we have done it before in Angola, we have done it Shemenye, it was just a refresher course so that people can refresh themselves as to how to plant mine, to time the mines, how quick to dig, things like that.
MR WAGENER: You testified in a criminal Court that you had no specific experience or training in the usage of landmines, was that a lie?
MR MNCUBE: You mean in Court?
MR WAGENER: Yes in Court. Yes, in the Criminal Court.
MR MNCUBE: Ja, that time it was a different situation then.
MR WAGENER: So you lied in Court?
MR MNCUBE: Yes, I lied then because it was not about TRC, it was another Court under apartheid regime, so one was - I mean I had no choice but to try to protect myself wherever possible.
MR WAGENER: So would you say that this group of twelve, the larger group, they were trained operatives in explosives and specifically landmines? You were a trained group of operatives when it came to landmines specifically?
MR MNCUBE: Well I would say so, yes.
MR WAGENER: Or was it a case that only a few of the twelve were , if I may refer to it as explosive experts and the others merely accompanied and carried the weaponry and so on.
MR MNCUBE: I'm not sure if I will say there were some experts but as far as I'm concerned, I will say all of us were experts, that's why we were tasked with that mission, because we were experts in laying the landmines.
MR WAGENER: As you sit here today, Mr Mncube, how do you feel about this landmine operation?
MR MNCUBE: how do I feel about the landmine operations?
MR WAGENER: Yes, or campaign.
MR MNCUBE: The campaign?
MR WAGENER: Yes.
MR MNCUBE: Well for me I would say it was a well done job, as far as I'm concerned. I don't know other people how do they look at it because we carried out the order and the order was accomplished as we were ordered.
MR WAGENER: But we know that the real military targets were not primarily hit, but civilian targets were hit. We know that today. Do you still say it was a job well done?
MR MNCUBE: I still stand by that, yes, it was a job well done because the area that we were told to go and work is the area that was designated by our Commanders.
MR WAGENER: Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, any questions?
MR DE BEER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE BEER: I would just like to add, if you would have known that your landmine is going to kill a civilian, would you still have planted that landmine at that specific spot, or road or field?
MR MNCUBE: Well, if I'd known earlier on that we was going to kill civilians, I don't think we would have carried out that kind of operation, but we went there with a clear mind that we were attacking a military target.
MR DE BEER: Even if you did not achieve that military target and you killed far more civilians than military personnel, do you still feel that you achieved your military objective?
MR MNCUBE: Well it's not for me really to say - okay let me put it this way. As you said our late President, Oliver Tambo, at the end of the day was not happy about the land campaign, it was for them to make that kind of a decision up there but we on the ground, I still believe that it was a well done job, though civilians died and if we knew that we were attacking civilians, we wouldn't have done that, we would not hurt civilians purposely.
MR DE BEER: You said that - or there were some questions raised with regard to the landmine campaign in general and I believe that the command structure at that stage, the NEC, informed you that they were not satisfied that enough reconnaissance was carried out in the event of more civilians being killed than military personnel, so would you say that they were actually not being truthful when they said that this mission was a failure?
MR MNCUBE: Come again.
MR DE BEER: When you command structure said that they had their doubts of the effectiveness of this operation in planting these landmines, would you say that they were not being truthful in saying that this mission as such was a failure.
MR MNCUBE: Well I would believe that it was a failure because later landmine operations ceased to take place.
MR DE BEER: One last question, are you proud that you actually achieved your objectives in planting the landmines, or are you still proud that you actually killed women and children and other civilians in the act of planting landmines?
MR MNCUBE: If I can put it this way, I have no regrets at all for things that I did in good faith. I don't know if I answer your question.
MR DE BEER: No more questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE BEER
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: None, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?
MR SIBANYONI: No questions from me Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mncube, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR KOOPEDI: And Chairperson, that will in fact conclude all the evidence we intend to tender in respect of Mr Mncube and I should go on to say that concludes the evidence of the applicants, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wagener, what is the situation? Are you going to be calling any witnesses?
MR WAGENER: Chairman, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: To testify or to make a statement?
MR WAGENER: My client wishes to testify. My estimation thereof is about 30 minutes to 45 minutes.
CHAIRPERSON: And Mr de Beer?
MR DE BEER: As far as I know and as far as I have discussed with my client, he's not going to testify, but I would like, Mr Chairperson, to take into account that I will discuss this matter with him this evening and in the event that he will be willing to come through and testify, I would just like the Commission to take that into account, that time span.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wagener, do you want to continue now?
MR WAGENER: Chairman, I'm not sure what your programme looks like tomorrow. I'm slightly in your hands. I would prefer to commence tomorrow morning, even if it is somewhat earlier than today, but we are in your hands.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I sincerely hope it would be somewhat earlier than today, seeing we only started after lunch. It would seem in any even that we won't be finishing this matter tomorrow because there's have to be argument as well and Mr de Beer might - but would it be possible to start at 9 o'clock in the morning because we'd like to finish. We have another matter on the roll which we would like to get on straight away after that and hopefully, if we don't finish it, make large inroads into that. Yes, I think then if we could start at half past eight then, if - that would be good. I'd then just like to say that we'll adjourn now to continue with the hearing at half past eight in the morning and when we will be commencing with the evidence of the witness to be called by Mr Wagener and I'd just like to apologise to the people who stayed later than they expected, but we started late, we just wanted to get as far as possible in this matter. Thank you.
We'll now adjourn until half past eight tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
