MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Edgar Mhlope. He is from Lusaka-B. His application is on page 88.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlope, can you hear? Please stand and give us your full names.
MR MHLOPE: I am Edgar Mhlope.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a second christian name?
MR MHLOPE: Yes, it's Qoza Edgar Mhlope.
QOZA EDGAR MHLOPE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Mhlope, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B, Thokoza?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?
MR MHLOPE: It was Makasonke Mhlope.
MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit?
MR MHLOPE: It was 1993.
MR SIBEKO: Are you related to Makasonke?
MR MHLOPE: Yes, he is my younger brother.
CHAIRPERSON: Just give me - what is his first name, just give it again?
MR MHLOPE: He is Makasonke, Makasonke Gerald Mhlope.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Sibeko?
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Were you involved in attacks or defensive actions where you carried an AK47 or any form of weapon which you used against the opposition?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Tell us about those incidents, Sir.
MR MHLOPE: The first incident happened at Givani near a school. Shacks were put up in that area and there were people residing there. I do not know where they came from. I woke up early, I think it was round about eight in the morning and I went to visit my friend Pheus and found him at his parents place and we went out to look for cigarettes at Givani.
I was residing at Mbele during that time. When we arrived in the other street, certain women showed up and they indicated that they were IFP members at the school. When we went to inspect there was someone who kept peeping, closing the door etc., and we went back to Makasonke to report to him.
He then gave us an AK47 and my friend was given a .38 pistol. We then went back and we came across two soldiers along the road or along the way. These soldiers came from Slovo. Their names are Madisi and Nati.
We went to the area to try and verify the information to the effect that they are IFP members. This person kept peeping through and we started firing. I think we must have fired about 10 rounds. Pheus also fired shots. I don't know how many times. This person then jumped a fence and fled.
We were not sure whether some people were remaining behind or not. We went in to inspect and when we arrived there were no people and we started setting the shacks on fire.
MR SIBEKO: Right. What you are telling ...(intervention)
ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get clarity on what happened here?
You went with Mfinos to buy cigarettes at Givani, yes?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: That is where some women told you that there were IFP members there, where? Where were the IFP members?
MR MHLOPE: They were at a school. There is a school at that street.
ADV GCABASHE: Were they erecting these shacks somewhere near the school?
MR MHLOPE: The shacks were already set up. The people were already taking occupation of these.
ADV GCABASHE: So the people who were occupying the shacks were said to be IFP members, that's what these women told you?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: So you went to see Makasonke and you got firearms from Makasonke?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Now I'm not sure as to whether it was you and Mfinos, and I seem to have another person who then went back to fire at these people, can you just help me there. Just go over that evidence again. I know you were involved, Mfinos was involved, was there another person and what firearms did each one of you have? Can you just go over that again for me, thanks.
MR MHLOPE: Yes, there were two others, they were just walking past and they heard about this urgent attack and they came to assist. I was carrying an AK and Mfinos was carrying a pistol, a .38 pistol and these other two were also carrying their pistols.
ADV GCABASHE: Where did you meet these other two who joined you? Because you went to Makasonke, he gave you your firearms, where did you meet the other two?
MR MHLOPE: We came across them shortly after we had taken the firearms from Makasonke.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
MR SIBEKO: Now there's one thing that we've got to clarify here. When you met these ladies who told you that they were IFP members residing in those shacks, were you with Mfinos or Pheus? Is Mfinos and Pheus one and the same person?
MR MHLOPE: It was Pheus, not Mfinos. It was Alpheus Maseko.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, just repeat that, that name.
INTERPRETER: Mfinos - no, I'm sorry, Pheus, Alpheus, not Mfinos.
MR MHLOPE: His name is Alpheus Maseko.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?
MR SIBEKO: Now the four of you were armed at this stage, who amongst yourselves fired shots or did you fire shots all at once, that is all of you?
MR MHLOPE: No, I'm the one who started firing shots and the others followed suite, using their pistols.
MR SIBEKO: And your evidence is that that person that you saw got out of the shack, jumped over the fence and ran away, is that what you said?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: You thereafter went to those shacks and looked inside and found that there was nobody else in any of those shacks, is that what you said?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Did you see whether the person who ran away got injured as a result of the shooting?
MR MHLOPE: I would not say because he ran away and we did not pursue him. We did not trust that he was alone.
MR SIBEKO: And then you said you burnt those shacks, all of them?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Did those shacks contain any movables inside?
MR MHLOPE: Yes, things like beds, TV sets, radios, things like that, furniture.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us exactly as to how many were those shacks?
MR MHLOPE: There were three of them close to one another.
MR SIBEKO: Is that the only incident you were involved in? Do you have any other incidents wherein you were involved?
MR MHLOPE: There is one other incident, the Buthelezi incident.
ADV GCABASHE: Just before you tell us about that, just give us a date. When was this, '93/'94? The shack incident.
MR MHLOPE: It was in 1993. I am not quite sure of the date, I cannot remember the month and the date.
MR SIBEKO: And then when did the incident at Buthelezi take place, are you in a position to tell us?
MR MHLOPE: Yes, yes. On that day, I think it was round about ten. I cannot remember on what day of the week it was but yes, it was in 1993. It was shortly after the first incident, a few days after that incident.
We received information to the effect that the IFP were attacking and soldiers who were present were myself and the deceased, Gushi, who was one of us. It therefore had to be us who had to take guns and run Buthelezi. We managed to quickly get hold of Makasonke who gave us firearms and we went up to Buthelezi.
We went to the second house and we were shooting these people from a distance of about 200 metres. Some people showed us where the IFP were, and they were charging into the township. We realised that they were indeed charging into the township and we exchanged gunshots or gunfire.
I think we must have spent about 30 minutes exchanging gunfire and thereafter the Stability Unit appeared and we fled. When I was just about to take a passage, a shortcut to the other street, I was cut by a corrugated iron and ...(intervention) Yes, I was cut by a corrugated iron and I was taken to hospital to be stitched.
MR SIBEKO: Alright. You got the information from - in fact, who gave you the information that there was an attack at Buthelezi?
MR MHLOPE: It's a certain young man from Slovo. He resides around Buthelezi.
MR SIBEKO: You went to fetch arms from Makasonke, who else was there when you went to Makasonke and who was carrying what?
MR MHLOPE: It was myself and Gushu, Gushi.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko.
What are the full names of Gushi, is it Gush or Gushu?
MR MHLOPE: It's Goshi: G-O-S-H-I.
MR SIBEKO: What were you carrying, Sir?
MR MHLOPE: I was carrying an AK47.
MR SIBEKO: And Goshi?
MR MHLOPE: He was not armed, he was waiting for me to give him the firearm in case I get tired or get injured.
MR SIBEKO: Then you went to Buthelezi Street where you were shown the house where the IFP people were based, is that what you said?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: So when the shootout started, that is when you arrived, will I be correct if I say that you were actually shooting or directing your shots towards that house?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: You exchanged fire for about 30 minutes, are you in a position to say whether you injured or killed anybody from their side, that is the IFP's side?
MR MHLOPE: I would not say because a firearm is a lethal weapon. Yes, there might be people who got injured or died.
MR SIBEKO: And you acknowledge that those who might have died or got injured could have been as a result of your shooting, that is you specifically?
MR MHLOPE: Yes, I accept that.
MR SIBEKO: What happened to the AK that you were carrying ultimately?
MR MHLOPE: Are you referring to after the incident?
MR SIBEKO: Okay, let us start again. Did you use that AK continuously, throughout the era of violence until it finally came to an end?
MR MHLOPE: No, I did not use it thereafter because we did not have enough supply of these AK47s in the township. We used to share the AKs among ourselves and I also got injured ...(intervention)
MR SIBEKO: Would I be correct if I say that after this attack at Buthelezi you never carried any weapon whatsoever thereafter?
MR MHLOPE: Yes, I did not carry any firearm thereafter.
MR SIBEKO: You are applying for amnesty for your actions or acts at Givani, that is at this school that you referred to and then for your participation at Buthelezi Street, is that correct?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Panel?
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.
You know there is one area where I didn't quite understand your evidence. If you could just help clarity this. It relates to the Buthelezi incident. I had written here that the IFP was charging into the township. Now a little later you confirmed that these people you were shooting at were inside a house. The
pictures in my mind don't quite - I've got something wrong somewhere. Where you shooting at a house or were you shooting at a group of people who were charging into the township? Just help me there.
MR MHLOPE: When we arrived they had already based in the house and there were some soldiers who were guarding around. These were people who were approaching, but they were already in the house when we arrived.
ADV GCABASHE: Now we have heard evidence of serious shooting at Buthelezi Street from other applicants, is this the same incident where there was this very serious, a massive fight at Buthelezi Street? Is it the same incident?
MR MHLOPE: This was really serious shooting because people were dying.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I rephrase that. Serious in the sense that there were very many SDU members involved in a fight with IFP member, so that it was quite widespread, there weren't just the two of you, there were other groups assisting you?
MR MHLOPE: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Were you the first SDU unit to arrive at that place, or did the other units get there before you?
MR MHLOPE: No, there were others whom we met in that area already.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlope, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: We will take the luncheon adjournment at this stage. We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
