Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: The next application is that of Mr Alpheus Maseko, number AM 7085/97. It is in the Lusaka-B bundle, at page 40.

Mr Maseko, good afternoon. Can you hear me? Won't you please stand and give your full names for the record.

ALPHEUS MASEKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Maseko, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You were also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

MR MASEKO: Makasonke Mhlope.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: During 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents of violence whilst you were still a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about your involvement in such incidents?

MR MASEKO: As Qoza has already explained, we happened to attack Mkatizwe next to Givani. That attack indeed took place. We attacked the school, and the person that we were actually attacking was able to escape and we did not conduct a follow-up. He proceeded to Penduka section.

MR SIBEKO: Is this incident the one that occurred at Givani Street where Mr Edgar Qoza Mhlope was also involved?

MR MASEKO: That is correct, there are other incidents that I was involved in.

MR SIBEKO: I mean the one that you are referring to, Mkatizwe, is it the same one as Mr Edgar Mhlope, the last applicant before you?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you proceeded to burn the three shacks which were erected on the premises of the school after you have looked for any occupants?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether the person who ran away, who got out of the shack and jumped over the fence, whether that person was injured or not?

MR MASEKO: I have no clarity. We did shoot. I'm not sure whether he died or he got injured, but he was able to escape.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying a .38 revolver as Mr Mhlope has testified?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You knew at the time that your conduct was unlawful, that is carrying that arm without a licence, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I knew.

MR SIBEKO: You also knew that by you shooting any person, not only the person that you were shooting at, could have got injured or killed, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is true.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any other incidents which you would want to tell us about?

MR MASEKO: Yes, there are.

MR SIBEKO: Kindly proceed, Sir.

MR MASEKO: During 1993, my commander came to me and issued an instruction to me that there is a certain member of the IFP who stayed at Cartwright, Everest and we had to go and attack the person.

I started shooting, attacking him but he also shot back until I had to retreat ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where did this person live, the IFP person?

MR MASEKO: He was staying at Everest at that time, it was also called Cartwright, or is still called Cartwright.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat, will the Interpreter just repeat that, also called?

INTERPRETER: Cartwright or Everest.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us, what happened with this IFP member, what happened with this incident?

MR MASEKO: We got to his place of residence and this man came out. I think he saw me first and he started shooting first. I shot back. We exchanged gunfire and I realised that he was going to catch up with me, I had to retreat and run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Chair.

Are you in a position to tell us who that person was? Can you identify that person?

MR MASEKO: I discovered his name. I think after the attack I was told that his name is Mdakane and he is still alive. He was taken by the Stability Unit and I was asked as to why I did not kill him. I explained the problem that I encountered when I tried to attack him.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that name again of that person.

MR MASEKO: Mdakane: M-D-A-K-A-N-E.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you alone during this attack?

MR MASEKO: I was with Stambo but at that time Stambo was at another base. I don't know what happened at that particular base but I was alone when I confronted this man that I wanted to attack.

MR SIBEKO: Let us understand this clearly. When you went to Mr Mdakane's place, were you alone or were you with Stambo as you say?

MR MASEKO: I was with Stambo.

MR SIBEKO: The two of you were supposed to attack Mr Mdakane, is that what you are saying?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you exchanged fire with Mr Mdakane, was he inside his house or outside? Was he shooting maybe through the window or through the door or was he outside in the yard?

MR MASEKO: He was outside the house.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether Mr Mdakane got injured because I think you failed to kill him, is that so?

MR MASEKO: Because I was using a gun and shooting, my intention was to kill him because I had already been told that he was a member of the IFP, but I am sure that he got shot. I could say he got injured but I'm not sure as to whether he died.

MR SIBEKO: You say you are sure that he was hit by one or some of your bullets, are you in a position to say whether he got injured? That is what I'm interested in.

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure, I did not see him falling. As I've already said that he was also hitting back, that's when I turned my back away and ran.

MR SIBEKO: What type of arm were you carrying?

MR MASEKO: I had an AK47.

MR SIBEKO: What ultimately happened to that AK?

MR MASEKO: As I was running I threw it at some other shack, just outside that shack or house and ran back to my particular section. I don't know who picked it up at a later stage but I just left it there and ran away.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you were involved in?

MR MASEKO: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about it.

MR MASEKO: We received a call that we are supposed to go to Slovo section. We duly went there together with other soldiers that we worked with. When we got there we were told that we should base the area but our enemies did not approach, we just based there.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying a weapon on that particular day?

MR MASEKO: No, I did not have any weapon with me.

MR SIBEKO: Did you search anybody to look for arms of whatever nature? ...(end of tape)

MR MASEKO: ...(beginning of tape)

MR SIBEKO: ... applying for amnesty firstly for your involvement in the shootout with Mr Mdakane and then secondly with the shooting at Givani together with the arson that followed thereafter, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Advocate Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Sibeko, just one question from me. I see that next to his surname it's written 49493, what is it? Is it a prison number of what?

MR SIBEKO: Let me find out from him, Mr Chairman. We don't have any knowledge about this number, it's possible that it could be his ANC membership number.

ADV SANDI: Okay. He is not serving at the moment anyway, is he? According to the application forms there is no information to that effect.

MR SIBEKO: Not at all.

MR MASEKO: No, I've never been arrested.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Maseko, you possessed that AK47 at the time that you shot at Mr Mdakane, yes?

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: So is it correct to assume that you are also applying for amnesty for the unlawful possession of that AK47 and any ammunition you may have had on you? Just to complete this.

MR MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Then in relation to any other activities that you might have participated in, even indirectly, be it at meetings, be it talking to your commander, is there anything there that you want to incorporate in this amnesty application, where you may have assisted, anything that you may want to include?

MR MASEKO: No, there's nothing else I would like to incorporate.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Just in regard to the last incident that you referred to, the Slovo matter, the incident in Slovo. I have recorded your testimony as being that you were told to base in the area, can you just explain to us what happened here actually?

MR MASEKO: On that particular day when we were supposed to base, there was nothing that had happened before. Apparently our superiors were suspecting that something will happen but there was no shootout that occurred, no violence, nothing whatsoever. We just based and left when we realised that there was nothing going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you based there, what did you actually do?

MR MASEKO: A base is a place where if you were called as soldier to congregate at a certain point and be on the lookout for anything that will happen. We used to call that basing, basing the area.

CHAIRPERSON: So you congregated at a particular point in the Slovo section, ready to deal with any trouble that might occur or that was anticipated by your leaders but nothing actually happened, there was no trouble, and you simply just dispersed after a while there, is that what happened or what?

MR MASEKO: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, any re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko, thank you very much, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED