ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who is the next applicant?
MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Kenneth Vusumuzi Mabizela. His application appears on page 321, Lusaka A.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mabizela, do you hear?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
VUSUMUZI KENNETH MABIZELA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Mabizela, you've also applied for amnesty, is that correct?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: You confirm that Mr Moosa Msimango was your commander?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct if I say that you joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Do you have incidences of violence that you were involved in before the year 1993?
MR MABIZELA: No.
MR SIBEKO: Do you have specific acts of - do you have incidences wherein you were involved after 1993 as a member of the Self Defence Unit?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Kindly tell us of those incidences?
MR MABIZELA: I was involved in Mandela Section in a kombi, and the matter at Mazibugu, I was also involved in the matter that took place at Mazibugu Street.
MR SIBEKO: Where a kombi was attacked, is it the same incidence that was referred to by Mr Ngubane?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: What was your role in that incident?
MR MABIZELA: I went to hit a target there.
MR SIBEKO: By a target, are you referring to this kombi?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, I'm referring to the kombi.
MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying any weapon?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, I was armed with an AK47 rifle.
MR SIBEKO: Did you fire any shots towards this kombi?
MR MABIZELA: Yes I did.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether you hit the target, and if so you could injure or kill the occupants of that kombi?
MR MABIZELA: I did hit the target, because I was aiming at it.
MR SIBEKO: Yes, but are you in a position to tell us whether your bullet injured or killed anybody who was in the kombi?
MR MABIZELA: I think I managed to injure people inside, because the bullets reached the kombi, the bullet hit the kombi.
MR SIBEKO: You're applying for amnesty for this particular, in fact for your unlawful possession of the AK and you shooting towards this kombi or causing injury or death to anybody who might have been involved in that - who might have been in the kombi?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Now you have also mentioned that you were involved in an incident at Mazibugu Street. When was this incident?
MR MABIZELA: It took place in 1994.
MR SIBEKO: Is this incident the one that was referred to by Mr Ngubane again which occurred at, what's the section, is it Slovo or Mandela?
MR MABIZELA: Mandela. Yes, that is the same incident.
MR SIBEKO: What was your role in this incident?
MR MABIZELA: I was in the covering group. As I was in the covering group, I was waiting for the people going out, I was in the first covering group. We would wait for them and go on with the fight, so we would wait for them until they come out of the place.
ADV GCABASHE: Until they come out of which place?
MR MABIZELA: In the entrance.
ADV GCABASHE: You were waiting for the IFP people to come out of their places so you could shoot at them, or you were waiting for your comrades who were retreating and you were giving them cover, which of the two is it, just help me?
MR MABIZELA: We would wait for our comrades on their way out.
MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying an AK47 in this incident?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Did you get any opportunity of using your AK47 as you were in the covering group?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Tell us what happened?
MR MABIZELA: The first group that went in, on their way out we went inside and fired, we were actually shooting at the people, at the IFP people who were inside.
ADV GCABASHE: If you can just be explicit, inside where, just to help us, because right now we have so many incidents in our mind and it's in the same area, so it helps us identify which one you're talking about if you're just a little more specific. Thanks.
MR MABIZELA: As the group went in, into Mazibugu, we were running in the covers among the houses.
MR SIBEKO: Now who exactly did you direct your shots at when your comrades exited from the area where the fight was?
MR MABIZELA: We were directing at IFP members.
ADV GCABASHE: Where exactly were these IFP members, in houses, in the hostel, on the street?
MR MABIZELA: They were running up and down and we were also doing the same thing, but we could see them, and they could see us and we were shooting, and we were taking covers also. The others were falling, but I didn't know who were falling, I didn't know their names.
MR SIBEKO: So it's possible that, as a result of your shots, you could have injured or killed somebody from, or a number of people from the IFP members?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: And you're applying for amnesty for carrying that AK47 and for the shooting that you made?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident?
MR SIBEKO: Yes, the incident of Mshayazafe. I was also in the covering group, first covering group, but I did not manage to reach the wall as the other comrades went through the opening. At Mpazane Street, the houses at Mpazane Street were actually facing the hostel. We were shooting and some comrades got inside and I was actually keeping guard on the ISU. One comrade passed away, whose name was Stoffel, and he was brought out of that place, but he went in there without an AK47, but when they were taking him, they brought him to me and the other comrades from the other sections were there. I took this comrade to one of the houses there.
MR SIBEKO: Is this the incident that occurred in 1994?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: You were carrying an AK47 in this particular incident?
MR MABIZELA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, just give us a second, we're just talking about something ...(indistinct).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko, carry on please.
MR SIBEKO: Now, in this incident at Mazayazafi, did you get an opportunity of using your AK47?
MR MABIZELA: No.
MR SIBEKO: But you associate yourself with the conduct of your comrades who got an opportunity of getting inside the hostel and fire some shots towards the IFP people, is that correct?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: And you are applying for amnesty for that attack and your carrying of an unlawful firearm, is that correct?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you want us to know?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, the incident at Slovo Section.
MR SIBEKO: When was this incident at Slovo Section?
MR MABIZELA: It was in 1994.
MR SIBEKO: What happened?
MR MABIZELA: We got a message at Lusaka Section that the IFP had infiltrated, so they were looking for some assistance. We went there to assist them, as our commander had already said, and Ngubane was his deputy. I went to another group seven, I went to Dagani Street. We were already mixed with the other sections, even the comrades from Slovo already there. The role I played there, I was shooting, shooting at the IFP members.
MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying a pistol or an AK47?
MR MABIZELA: I was armed with an AK47 rifle.
MR SIBEKO: Do you know whether you, as a result of your shooting, anybody might have died or got injured, that is from the side of the IFP?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, people were injured, even from our own group.
MR SIBEKO: But you don't rule out the possibility that there could be others who might have died from the side of the IFP?
MR MABIZELA: I cannot say, because the people were shooting and the people would fall and we would proceed.
MR SIBEKO: But it's possible that some of them might have died as a result of the shooting, is that correct?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is possible.
MR SIBEKO: And you take the responsibility as one of the people who fired shots towards the IFP members, is that correct?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: And as a result you are applying for amnesty for this incident and for carrying an unlawful firearm?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident?
MR MABIZELA: No, there's nothing else.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair. Mr Mabizela, where did you keep this firearm?
MR MABIZELA: I did not have a choice, I had to keep a firearm because I was a member of the SDU.
ADV SANDI: Now what I'm trying to establish is whether the firearm was continuously in your possession?
MR MABIZELA: No, I would get it from my commander, Moosa Msimango.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Chair.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mabizela, the Mazibugu incident, it could have been December '93, or it could have been in '94?
MR MABIZELA: If my memory serves me well, it was in 1994.
ADV GCABASHE: Were there a number of incidents at Mazibugu that you know of, apart from the one in '94?
MR MABIZELA: I cannot say because I was only involved in two incidents and the one at Mandela Section.
ADV GCABASHE: But it is possible that there were more that you were not involved in?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is possible.
ADV GCABASHE: Just remind me, the Slovo Section, this last one you referred to, was that the one when Bonga sent the message that they needed help?
MR MABIZELA: Bonga was not at Slovo Section, but he was at Mandela Section.
ADV GCABASHE: So really what you talked about, the Mazibugu Street incident in 1994, when you went with Sipho Ngubane, would that have been the one where Bonga asked for assistance from you, that's the one that happened at Mandela Section?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: This incident at Slovo Section, was that just before the elections? Do you know when it happened in relation to the election?
MR MABIZELA: It took place before the elections.
ADV GCABASHE: Give me a rough estimate as to whether it would have been in January or in April, in relation to those May, the April elections rather, would it have been towards April or more in the early part of the year, just if you can remember?
MR MABIZELA: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was in April.
ADV GCABASHE: Tell me, you say that you weren't involved in any incidents prior to 1993, are you then excluding any patrols, any barricading, you were not involved in any of those activities?
MR MABIZELA: Yes, I was involved in barricading and patrolling.
ADV GCABASHE: And that would have been before 1993?
MR MABIZELA: It took place in 1993.
ADV GCABASHE: Are there any incidents in relation to barricading and patrolling that you seek amnesty for? You know, if you did nothing but just patrolled, and you didn't search people, you didn't harass or assault them, then of course there's nothing to apply for, but if there was any form of assault or any form of a violation of their rights, you may want to apply for amnesty for that in that case, you know just during the barricading and patrolling incidents?
MR MABIZELA: There is something that I did during the patrolling and barricading, and I'm applying for amnesty for that.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but you just need to give us an idea as to what something is. It could have been killing somebody, I wouldn't know, just give us an idea, "When I was patrolling, this is the type of thing I did. When I barricaded, this is the type of thing I might have done", just one sentence, one sentence.
MR MABIZELA: As we were barricading, we used to patrol and assault people. If we see people with a sharp object or firearms, we would confiscate them. We would accompany that particular person to his or her home and we would proceed with our job patrolling and barricading.
ADV GCABASHE: But you didn't do any of this before 1993? I just want to cover everything that we've heard in the last week and a bit, in fact in the last two weeks, just to make sure that you are not leaving anything out, pre-1993 you didn't do any barricading and patrolling, like some of your other comrades?
MR MABIZELA: No, I was never involved, I started in 1993.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much, thank you Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mabizela, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
