CHAIRPERSON: We'll now be proceeding with the application of Sizwe Reginald Makhuleni and Mbuyiseli Mjikwa, numbers AM0093/96 and AM1359/96 respectively. Would the lawyers please put themselves on record.
MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I'm Bumelo Nyoka, legal representative for both the applicants.
MR GQOMO: Thank you, Mr Chair, I'm Nsegaya Gquomo, I'm representing one of the victims, Lennox Yose. Thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the victim in respect of count one, is it?
MR GQOMO: That is correct, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Carry on, Mr Nyoka.
MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, for the record, we handed in affidavits of both the applicants which were prepared by a TRC representative. I wish to place on record, Mr Chairperson, that I was instructed to act in this matter on Friday and I got the bundle on Monday, but both applicants confirmed the contents of the affidavits as being true and correct, where necessary as it is obvious they are going to supplement them by verbal evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Right, which is which?
MR NYOKA: There's the - in terms of the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Shall we make Mr Mjikwa's ...(intervention)
MR NYOKA: No 1, he's going to ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No (a),
MR NYOKA: Yes, he's going to testify first, Mr Mjikwa. CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Makhuleni (b)?
MR NYOKA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you bear with us a moment, as you know, we were given these just before we came into the other hearing and we haven't had a chance.
MR NYOKA: I wish to hand in a summary of the counts as stated in the judgement for convenience. It's hand-written, but it's legible.
CHAIRPERSON: These are the counts that appear on page 18?
MR NYOKA: Yes, I've made even some notes which are not made, they were made earlier on in the court record, but I've made them in one page for convenience.
CHAIRPERSON: They are already set at page 18, the whole indictment is set out.
MR NYOKA: 18 and 82. 82 is the verdict. I've included both the counts and the verdict on one page, that's why I've made one page - the counts and the verdict for convenience, because there are many counts, it will only confuse people.
MR DE JAGER: Could we number it Exhibit C?
MR NYOKA: Yes, I've done that.
MR DE JAGER: Will they be giving evidence in Xhosa?
MR NYOKA: Both English and Xhosa. They've already spoken with the interpreters and made arrangements - English and Xhosa.
MR DE JAGER: Yes, would they like to be sworn in in English?
MR NYOKA: Yes, I was just waiting for the Chairperson to finish, he's still busy.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, carry on.
MR NYOKA: Alright.
CHAIRPERSON: Which one are you going to call first?
MR NYOKA: I'm going to call applicant no 2.
MBUYISELI MJIKWA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mr Mjikwa, there's an affidavit that was prepared by a TRC representative, which you signed. You've had the opportunity of reading it. Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit, Exhibit A?
MR MJIKWA: That's right.
MR NYOKA: Did you sign - is that your signature on the last page - page 8 I think?
MR MJIKWA: Yes.
MR NYOKA: Alright. What was the aim for all the acts that are mentioned in the affidavit?
MR MJIKWA: It was to liberate the people and to fulfil the aims of the Organisation.
MR NYOKA: Can you categorise the aims, was it a moral, legal, political, emotional aim, what was it?
MR MJIKWA: It was a political aim.
MR NYOKA: With regard to Exhibit C now, Mr Chairperson - sorry, let's start with the bundle. The statement that is attributed to you on page 12 - 17, do you confirm its contents?
MR MJIKWA: Yes.
MR NYOKA: And also, you applied for indemnity on page 87 - 91. Do you confirm the contents of that application?
MR MJIKWA: Yes.
MR NYOKA: Did you ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Page what are these?
MR NYOKA: 87 - 91, Application for indemnity, in the bundle.
MR NYOKA: Did you get any response to your application for indemnity?
MR MJIKWA: I got the first response from the TRC, but it was rejected by the TRC.
MR NYOKA: Let's go to the last formal document, informally made in handwriting, Exhibit C. You are applying for amnesty for various acts. I've made a summary of the counts that were laid against you in court. Count 1 relates to robbery on the 10th of March of 1990 of a firearm from the victim, Mr Lindile Lennox Yose, a Traffic Officer at the time, for which you were not convicted. You were found not guilty, but you are applying for amnesty for that, not so?
MR MJIKWA: That is correct.
MR NYOKA: Counts 2 to count 7 relate to the murders of the victims and the robbery of their firearms. Count 2 relates to the murder on the 14th of April 1990 of Constables Zithobile Ciliza and count 3 to the robbery of his firearm, for which you were found guilty. You are applying for amnesty for that, not so?
MR MJIKWA: That is correct.
MR NYOKA: Count 4 relates to the murder on the 17th of April 1990 of Constable Leon Joseph for which you were found guilty, not so?
MR MJIKWA: That is correct.
MR NYOKA: Count 5 - robbery of his firearm, for which you were found guilty, not so?
MR MJIKWA: That's correct.
MR NYOKA: Count 6 relates to the murder on the 20th of April 1990 of Constable Daniel Andrews, for which you were found guilty. You are also applying for amnesty for that, not so?
MR MJIKWA: That's correct.
MR NYOKA: Count 7, possession of 3 firearms without a licence, for which you were found guilty.
MR MJIKWA: That's correct, yes.
MR NYOKA: Count 8, like count 1 was possession of ammunition. You were not found guilty, but you are applying for amnesty?
MR MJIKWA: That's correct, yes.
MR NYOKA: Before it became - you were not found guilty for the robbery of firearms, which included violence on Mr Yose, a Traffic Officer, you were not found guilty. Can you tell the Committee why you are applying for amnesty despite the fact that you are not convicted?
CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on with this, can you show us where he's applying for amnesty.
MR NYOKA: It's on paragraph 7(1) of the affidavit. It is not in the form itself in the bundle, but it's in the affidavit, paragraph 7(1) to 7(2). Although the name of the Traffic Officer ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but this is on the 23rd of May 1998, which is the cut-off date?
MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, the paragraph reads - let me confirm.
CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit is four years after the cut-off date isn't it? Sorry, for the application - when did the - it was last year, wasn't it.
MR NYOKA: Yes, 30 September, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: 1997?
MR NYOKA: 1997, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: This affidavit is 1998, after the cut-off date for application for amnesty, isn't it?
MR NYOKA: Yes, it is, Mr Chairman.
MR NYOKA: He can't just come and say he's applying for things can he?
MR NYOKA: Maybe then we can add by saying, Mr Chairperson, for all other acts which are not mentioned in the application, he's applying for amnesty ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well how can he do that, he hasn't applied within the time? He had to apply for amnesty by a certain date, didn't he? He hasn't done so. There is no mention that I can see, unlike the other matters we have heard, where there is some mention in the application form, there is - in his application form he mentions two counts of murder, two attempted murder, possession of firearm and ammunition and escaping from custody.
MR NYOKA: I see that on page 13, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well would you like to consider the position for a few minutes?
MR NYOKA: Yes, I will.
CHAIRPERSON: And decide what we're going to proceed with. We will adjourn till you tell us you're ready.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MBUYISELI MJIKWA: (s.u.o)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, having considered the application in the light of the judgement or the two judgements, the judgements of the court a quo and the judgements of the Appellate Division, there appears to be some confusion as to what the applicant has been convicted of, and what he is seeking amnesty in respect of. In these circumstances it seems to us that the proper course would be to hear the evidence now without in any way indicating that we accept that he's entitled to proceed with all the applications. We will thereafter, when we are all going to be in Cape Town next week, seek to obtain the original files relating to his application to ascertain whether there's any further information available there, and if there is we will communicate with you and if necessary we can arrange to hear further argument or further evidence. It may not be necessary, but everybody is here at the moment, it would be proper I think to place his evidence on record without, as I want to make clear, we are not conceding that he is entitled to proceed with an application for amnesty on the basis set out in annexure C. It may be limited to the two murders forming counts 3 and 5, but - 3 and 4, sorry, 2 and 4, but that is a matter that will be ascertained later, but it will not affect the evidence in that the affidavit refers to certain attempted murders and can be led to give that evidence.
MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the Committee for its indulgence. I wish also to place on record that I was surprised as everybody else. Without further ado I call upon the applicant to make his statement.
CHAIRPERSON: One more fact which I think I can place on record at this stage, that the counts 2 and 3 and counts 4 and 5, that is the murder and robbery in each event, are in are view extremely interrelated in that the murder was committed on the evidence and on the findings to commit the robbery. So the two are really all part and parcel of one offence, and in those circumstances it may well be that we are prepared to hear argument from you that they should - the application in respect of the murder should extend to the robbery, having regard to these somewhat unusual circumstances.
EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: (continues): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The applicant would like first of all to read a statement that he prepared in prison himself, he won't be long.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to - is the statement legible?
MR NYOKA: Yes he has got a better handwriting than mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps we can get it copied after he has read it. He can now read now into the record.
MR NYOKA: Thank you, Chair.
MR MJIKWA
"Maybe everything that I am about to say about the past will be questionable, especially its truthfulness. But surely questionable only to those who had no reason to be concerned about apartheid and its consequences, therefor they might not understand what constrained us to be involved in atrocious violence and how we were organised and being radicalised against apartheid and its structures. Just for the benefit of those kinds of people who might not understand what or how we were involved, I would like to explain how or what persuaded us to be involved in those terrible violence then.
We were organised and being radicalised against apartheid and their leaders. Some of them are now serving in the structures of the Government of the day. We are the victims of the conflict of the past which was caused by the apartheid. I am one of those who were organised and being radicalised but the organisations which were there. We organised and we radicalised in various ways, through speeches, poems, slogans and so on, in political rallies and funerals by prominent leaders. We were influenced to resist against apartheid, but we were not given weapons to fight and we had to fight by all means within our power in order to further the objectives of the organisations to free the oppressed.
Because of those influences I became the supporter and a member of an organisation. Because I became a member of the organisation I had to pursue its objective and defend it when it's necessary. Because I had to do that I had experienced political enemies. Because of that I became militant and because of that militancy I was involved in terrible violence, and some of the people went into exile because of those influences. We, the youth of South Africa were so active and militant against apartheid in such a way we became the targets of the forces which were extremely vicious. The forces which we had advantage to kill because of ...(indistinct) of being prosecuted. Because we became the targets of those kinds of Forces we lost our families prematurely, we lost their precious love and their acknowledgements. Some of us are now dead and some are still in prisons.
In 1997, on the 4th of January ...(inaudible) was premeditated by the people who called themselves Ama-Africa. This ...(indistinct) was aimed to suppress the political organisations by targeting their leaders, members and supporters. Because I was a member of one of those organisations I became the target of that ...(inaudible) too, and it's when we were forced to live in ...(indistinct) our leaders. We could not go back home thereafter and we had to scout around on the streets of PE in order to get what we need because there was no freedom of movement at Uitenhage, but we couldn't live in Uitenhage forever - sorry, but we couldn't live in Port Elizabeth forever. After that ...(indistinct) I became a ...(indistinct), always on the move to avoid being arrested and being killed by the enemy, that was a new challenge I had to face in my life, a challenge that needed a sacrifice. I was still a teenager then, but with no choice, I had to divorce my family and accept a new doctrine and admonishments. No-one was happy then to live in Port Elizabeth and all of us had two choices to choose from, to submit or to fight, but some of us realised that when you had to submit, you wouldn't submit just to fight, but we would submit to our people and our freedom. We couldn't submit and we had not choice but to fight, to hit back by all means"
...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I disturb you for one moment, I'm afraid I left this a little bit late, is the other applicant - does the other applicant understand English?
MR NYOKA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't have to be interpreted for him?
MR MJIKWA: Reads
"But some of realised that when we had to submit, we wouldn't just submit the fight, but we would submit our freedom and our people, we couldn't submit and we had no choice but to fight, to hit back by all means within our power, in defence of our freedom and our people. Perhaps it's not important to us who were wrong or right, and perhaps it may also not be important to question the role of the Police then in order to evaluate their impartiality, but I think it is important to understand that we were in a war where everyone was expected to harm or to be harmed, to kill and to be killed. But surely if all the operations of former Africa was successful then, surely I would have been ...(indistinct). Different forces were formed in different parts of this country, obviously they were formed by different leaders who had different objectives, e.g. in Cape Town they called themselves or they were known as Witdoeke. In KwaZulu Natal they were known as Inkatha and Port Elizabeth they were known as the Azapo. I may not know what their objectives were, but what was in common is they were all fighting against political organisations, especially against UDF. I regarded Ama-Africa as one of these forces I've mentioned. We did not cause the violence in Uitenhage in 1987, but we just had to face what was premeditated, and some of us were supposed to have been killed by the enemy. Indeed some were killed and some have survived. From 29 December 1986 I became a vagabond because I was one of those who were supposed to have been killed by Ama-Africa, and thereafter I became the target of the Police too, and it's when I started to grow up on the streets of Eastern Cape in prisons of South Africa, as I'm still growing up in prison, but fortunately I'm still alive. I am a survivor. Freedom is what I was fighting for. My freedom is what I've lost my childhood in prison for, but unfortunately I'm still not enjoying it, despite the freedom days that the people are enjoying, including those who fought so hard to keep apartheid alive. I do not expect sympathy and forgiveness from the victims because that price is too high, but I will appreciate it. Surely the violence of the past may have caused hatred and vendetta among the people, because it created death, casualties, prisoners and survivors. But I think it also depends whether a person does accept and understand the virility. I was pursuing the objectives of the organisation to further oppressed ...(indistinct). I'm sorry to the victims that that was the situation where we ought to fight in order to pursue our objective. I hope that my appearance before this Commission will not renew the memories of hostility"
Thank you.
MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Mjikwa. Can you please now tell us about the incidents for which you are applying for amnesty?
MR MJIKWA: These are incidents that started in 1987 to 1990. The first one is the shooting of the two Policemen, municipal Policemen, that was in 1987. Also the shooting of Sudumo in Khayelitsha. I also tried to escape from prison to try to go to exile. I also shot three Policemen, I was involved in the shooting of the three Policemen in 1990 and also assaulting a Traffic Officer and taking his weapon. Those are the incidents I'm applying for amnesty.
MR NYOKA: Very briefly, without requiring a long story, can you tell us the circumstances of each incident so that everyone can understand.
MR MJIKWA: In 1987 where the two Policemen are concerned, I was with comrades that I was operating with at the time. Mzwabantu Finai was of them, Sabatekegezi, Dlodlo, but I've forgotten his surname, and the other one was Kulegele, as the people that were operating in Nobuhle. When I met them they were in a Kombi, they were on their way to summit. They said that Africans had arrested some comrades, that the Police were wearing civilian clothing. We then decided to look for these Policemen and not go on the operation that we were meant to initially. We went to an area called Angola, I've forgotten one of the streets that we went into. As there were six of us, two of our comrades were walking ahead of us. Sabatekegezi were behind and myself and another comrade were in the middle, we were walking in two's. I saw faces that were not familiar sitting on the ground. When we got close to them I asked them who they were - I greeted them and I asked them were as well. As I was talking to them I noticed that one of them was focusing on the two comrades that were walking behind me, Sabatekegezi and Mzwabantu Finai, we referred to Mzabantu as "Shorts". Where they passed me - or they walked past me, one of the men that was sitting on the grass started nudging the other. They then drew their firearms. I did not know that they were Policemen because they were wearing civilian clothing. I perceived them as either Policemen or comrades, but because they drew their weapons I shot at them, the two of them. After that we ran away.
CHAIRPERSON: You perceived them as Policemen or comrades?
INTERPRETER: The witness said as either Policemen or comrades because they were unfamiliar.
MR NYOKA: The witness wanted to say Policemen or Ama-Africa or vigilantes, not comrades.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought he had made a mistake there.
INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
MR MJIKWA: We then dispersed. Even though I don't remember the number of weeks that lapsed after the incident, the comrades said that there was a need to go and attack some people in Khayelitsha. As there were six of us Mzwabantu Finai was absent, therefor it was just five of us.
There's a shop, Mr Kulman's shop, in Uitenhage. He was perceived as a member of Ama-Africa. We then decided to go to a place where we were sure to get these people. I was pretty sure that at Mr Kulman's shop we were going to get these people, even though it was at night. I then said to my comrades that if they shoot somebody they must make sure that it's one of the vigilantes. If they were not sure they should not shoot. I then saw Sudumo, he was standing next to the door inside, he was talking to a lady. I shot him, we then dispersed and I was arrested after that.
MR DE JAGER: Is it possible perhaps to identify this incident with one of the charges set out in the indictment on page 18 or 19 roundabout?
MR NYOKA: No.
MR DE JAGER: Is it not possible?
MR NYOKA: In the light of what Judge Wilson said, I didn't want to categorise the events to the counts, lest we get into more confusion.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand these do not relate to any of the counts in that indictment?
MR NYOKA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: These first two attempted murders are completely different?
MR NYOKA: Yes. Proceed.
MR MJIKWA: I was arrested in 1987, even though I don't remember the date or the month. As I was in prison I had the deep desire to go into exile and join Umkhonto weSizwe. Those desires did not just disappear because I was in prison. I wanted to get out of jail, even though there was no lawful way of getting out at the time. I therefor tried means to get out so that I could skip the country.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I interrupt you again, had you been now convicted for these offences and sentenced to imprisonment?
MR MJIKWA: I was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment for having shot two Policemen, and then 10 years, but 5 years suspended. I can't remember whether that was 1988 or 1989.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that for the other shooting, the shooting of Sabata, you got 10 years, 5 suspended?
MR MJIKWA: I was sentenced to 12 years, having shot two Policemen, the Policemen that wanted to shoot Sabata.
MR NYOKA: Are you referring to municipal Policeman, please be specific?
MR MJIKWA: Municipal Policemen.
CHAIRPERSON: It's my mistake, it's Sudumo, I got - it wasn't Sabata you shot, you shot Sudumo, is that the person you got 10 years, 5 suspended?
MR MJIKWA: Correct, sir. I then got an opportunity to escape from jail. After I had escaped from Prison I met with certain comrades. The comrades then tried to make means so that I could skip the country. I met with comrade Sokelela and comrade Fikele Gobese. They tried to get shelter for me as the Police were looking for me, so that I could hide. Comrade Sokelela took me to Motherwell, Ndlovu Street, but I do not remember the number of the house. I was with a comrade that I had been operating with in 1987, we referred to him as Mercantile. Whilst I stayed in Motherwell, or was hiding in Motherwell, a red Golf arrived with comrade Sokelela, comrade Masabolela was driving. The drove me to Mtanzania even though I did not know where they were taking me. I - they took me to NU 11, Unit 11. Comrade Sokelela's elder brother was staying there. From there I was taken to Unit 10, I think the number of the house was 345 if I'm not mistaken. I was given a pseudo-name, Undile Williams. Mercantile was to call himself Simpiwe. I got a passport. I was waiting so that I could be taken across the border when the time came, but sometimes things don't go as quick as you expect them to, so it took a bit of time. We started panicking, especially comrade Mercantile. Comrade Mercantile was the one who was panicking the most, he had never been harassed before, but he was always walking with me from 1987. Because he was panicking he decided to go back to Uitenhage. That worried me because I thought he'd get arrested and then he would divulge all. I told the comrades about all my concerns when they would come to Mtanzania. After a while comrade Mercantile came with comrades Piwa Nojogo. I asked them what they had come to do, they said that they were just visiting. That concerned me all the more because I did not want them to know where I was. They went back to Uitenhage as they were just visiting. I asked the comrades at Mtanzania to find another place for me because there the comrades had seen me. I would go and stay at NU 15 and also other places that I don't remember at the moment. One night some comrades came and amongst them I recognised MEC Smuts Ngonyama. He was responsible for taking me across the border. I was glad. But after two weeks I read in the paper that Smuts Ngonyama had been arrested. That worried because he was going to go into detention and a lot of time could elapse while being in jail. I thought that I could not sit there and wait for comrade Ngonyama to get out of jail because I was not sure of my own safety because of the comrades that had visited earlier.
I requested Comrade Sokelela's brother and comrade Tloye to give me money to go home because I did not trust that I was safe where I was. They took me home, but they took me as far as Bisho where I took a taxi to go home.
MR NYOKA: Why did you not proceed to skip the country, why did you go back home to Uitenhage?
MR MJIKWA: Because the man that was meant to help me to skip the country had been arrested. I did not know when he was going to be released from jail. He could be detained for three months, six months or even more. I was also concerned about my safety because there were people that had seen me that I did not trust.
MR NYOKA: What was the purpose for escaping from prison?
MR MJIKWA: As I have already said, I wanted to skip the country. I was arrested before I could fulfil that. The reason why I escaped from jail was to skip the country because I needed to survive.
MR NYOKA: Briefly can you go to another incident, Mr Mjikwa.
MR MJIKWA: In 1991 I got to Uitenhage, there were peace talks between the comrades and the Ama-Africa vigilante group.
MR NYOKA: For the record can you define who Ama-Africa were, what did it mean to be an Ama-African?
MR MJIKWA: They are the people that chased us in January, and we ran to Soweto. They were being used by the Police to kill the comrades. There was conflict between the UDF and Ama-Africa, therefor the leaders were trying to gain peace.
MR NYOKA: So, Mr Chairperson, excuse me, applicant no 2, Mr Makhuleni would like to go to the loo shortly. Can we have a one minute adjournment, if I'm being optimistic at all - I'm being optimistic.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll have a short adjournment.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR MJIKWA: (s.u.o.)
MR NYOKA: Mr Mjikwa, you were still relating the events in which you were involved. We already have your affidavit, Exhibit A in front of us. I'm going to ask you to briefly relate each incident, those that are still outstanding, but do it very, very briefly. Thank you.
MR MJIKWA: Thank you. In 1990 I received information from Sizwe Makhuleni as to where one gets the Police, the municipal Police, where they usually relax and sit and drink. We went to that tavern, I don't remember the name of the street. I asked Sizwe to go in to see if they were there, and if they were there how many there were. I was waiting outside. I asked Sizwe to go in because he was not harassed by the Police, he had never been harassed by the Police, therefor he did not have a problem going into a place where there were Police.
MR NYOKA: Sizwe, you are referring to your co-applicant?
MR MJIKWA: Correct. He said that there was a municipal Police inside there that he knew. He escorted the Policeman outside the tavern. I don't know whether he was going home, but he was going towards the gate. As it was a tavern there were people going in and out. I said to him that if there was a Policeman he would walk directly behind the Police guy, then I would know that the man walking just ahead of him is the Policeman. I pushed the gate open, saw that the Policeman decreases his pace. I then took out my gun. Sizwe took the gun that I had and he gave me the one that he had taken from the Policeman as he had disarmed him. He then shot him at the back. I realised that the Policeman had not fallen down, I asked him to throw the gun at me. He did and then I decided to shoot again, and he fell next to the door.
MR NYOKA: I will ask you to look at Exhibit C. Which incident is that now? That is count 2, that is the murder of Constable Zithobile Ciliza, is that correct?
MR MJIKWA: Correct.
MR NYOKA: And you took the firearm off him?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, we took his firearm.
CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand correctly, that first of all Sizwe shot him and then Sizwe gave you the gun and you shot him?
MR MJIKWA: That is correct. After a while Zole and Sizwe came - Sizwe arrived with Zolegeli, he was coming to report that there was a truck that had entered the Township with Policemen and this truck drove through the area in which Sizwe resided. We went to the truck, there were two trucks with Police, far from each other. These trucks looked like rubbish trucks. I said to them we should wait for the one so that they drive off because the one truck - the people in the first truck would see us if we were shooting at the one. That happened as I had asked, the one truck was being driven off with one Policeman. We went to the other truck. I was carrying the firearm that we had taken from the Traffic Cop - or I had taken from the Traffic Cop. Sizwe was carrying the firearm that we had taken from the Policeman that we had shot at the Tavern. I then took the driver out of the driver's seat so that he doesn't get shot whilst I was shooting at the Policemen. After we had taken the driver out of the truck Sizwe shot the Policemen, the municipal Policeman in the head. Zolegeli took the pumpgun from the Policeman. As we were trying to run away I took the pumpgun from Zolegeli to throw it away. Zolegeli is deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: Who took the gun from Zolegeli to throw it away?
MR MJIKWA: I took the gun from Zolegeli.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say to throw it away?
MR MJIKWA: Correct.
MR NYOKA: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, can I just have a minute with the applicant. The applicant seems to be speaking Zulu so I want to plead with him to speak Xhosa because there's going to be a problem with the interpretation.
INTERPRETER: The interpreter understands the speaker, it's just that he's not speaking loud enough. Thank you.
MR MJIKWA: We then dispersed after the incident. Zole then came with information that there was a place in the Township where Policemen go frequently. He says he knew the place because he had been beaten by Police there.
MR DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) what his name was, or did he hear his name later on?
MR MJIKWA: I didn't understand you earlier on.
MR DE JAGER: The person whom they shot at and took the gun from, can he identify that person, did he hear his name later on?
MR MJIKWA: I heard his name in court, but I can't remember the name now. I don't even know where he stayed.
MR DE JAGER: The incident took place where, in Uitenhage, is that correct?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, KwaNobuhle in Uitenhage.
MR DE JAGER: Could it be count no 3 perhaps - count no 4 perhaps, sorry?
CHAIRPERSON: Count 3 surely, the Policeman who was in a "munisipale voertuig".
MR DE JAGER: Yes but count 3 is about the robbery. The "haelgeweer" there was count 5, so it seems as though it's count 4 and 5.
CHAIRPERSON: Count 4 is the gate guard at the Police Station, isn't he?
MR DE JAGER: Yes, but there we've got this pumpgun,
CHAIRPERSON: Wait, I'm looking at the wrong - sorry, I'm looking at the wrong page.
MR DE JAGER: Can you perhaps remember whether the name was Joseph, Leon Joseph?
CHAIRPERSON: If you look on page 22 it shows that Leon Joseph was the chap that was in the truck.
MR NYOKA: If I can intervene ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Page 22 is the page I was looking at, it wasn't count 3, it's paragraph 3 there which says that Leon Joseph was on duty in a municipal vehicle. So that would be counts 4 and 5.
MR MJIKWA: I can't really confirm the name because I'm not sure, but it was a Coloured chap.
MR DE JAGER: Yes, okay, proceed.
MR MJIKWA: I got information from the late Zolegeli that there was a Police Station with Policemen in the Township. He said he knew the Police Station because he'd been tortured there by the Police. I asked him if we would be able to survive when we try to run away. He said yes, we would. The Police Station was not in the centre of town, it's just that it would be difficult to escape after the attack. We then went to a house where Sizwe's relatives lived. That's where we spent the night. The next day in the evening or late afternoon we went to that Police Station. We got through the houses that were closed to the Police Station. There were people that were drinking there. We pretended as if we'd gone there to relax and drink as well. We found out that there was a municipal Policeman that was standing by the gate. He was chatting to a friend of his. We did not know whether that friend was a Policeman or not, however he was not wearing uniform. I said to Sizwe we must wait for this person, or the Policeman to finish talking to the other man because we would put his friend in danger if we were to shoot him whilst he was talking to this man. To avoid that we had to wait for the discussion to finish. Our intentions were to go inside the Police Station. We waited for a long while, this man was not going away, he continued chatting to the Policeman. Sizwe then suggested we should go to a place - there was a show going on, and perhaps after the show the man would have left. Truly we started walking and as we were walking past this Policeman, this Policeman said we must put our hands in the air. Sizwe was carrying a bag, he was wearing a jacket as well, therefor this Policeman was suspicious. Truly this Policeman came and pointed a pumpgun at us. He was pointing directly at Sizwe. We lifted our hands in the air. I realised that he was focusing on Sizwe because he wanted to know what was in the bag that Sizwe was carrying. I lifted my arms in such a way that he does not see that I was - on my right side I was taking out a gun. What I did was, I shot him - I put my one hand under my armpit and I shot him through my jacket. I'm not quite sure how many bullets I fired, but it was more than two shots. There was a white Policeman by the gate who looked like he was coming towards me as we had our hands in the air. I shot at this white Policeman because I thought it would be our last chance to escape. We then ran away.
MR NYOKA: Did the white Policeman die as a result of your shooting at him?
MR MJIKWA: I was not shooting at the white Policeman, I was shooting at the Policeman that was pointing a gun at us and made us lift our hands in the air. The white Policeman ran away.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said a moment ago, the white Policeman at the gate was coming towards us and I shot at him, and we ran away.
MR MJIKWA: No, the white Policeman - I was standing in such a way that I was facing towards the gate. The white Policeman looks like he was coming towards us. He was at the gate. I don't know whether he was opening the gate, or what he was doing. So what I did, I shot at the Policeman that was pointing a gun at us.
MR NYOKA: So you did not shoot the white Policeman that was approaching you?
MR MJIKWA: No, we did not. He ran away after he heard the noise. He went inside where he was emanating from.
MR NYOKA: Can you now come quickly to the incident of the 20th of April 1990 if you can recall, where Constable Daniel Andrews was shot and killed.
MR MJIKWA: Please repeat your question.
MR NYOKA: Can you now come to the incident of the 20th of April 1990, where Constable Daniel Andrews was shot and killed, if you recall that name.
MR MJIKWA: That Policeman that we attacked, I thought it was a black Policeman that we attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: That was besides the point.
MR POTGIETER: Mr Mjikwa, was this in Langa where this incident happened, where the Policeman was shot that you spoke about now?
MR MJIKWA: Correct.
MR NYOKA: Thank you, Mr Potgieter. Can you proceed now to the last incident of the Traffic Officer.
MR MJIKWA: I was with Zolegeli at the time. We saw a Traffic Cop that had stopped a car. He was alone. I had a firearm at the time. We went to the Traffic Cop to disarm him. He resisted, I shot him with the gun that I had, in the head.
MR NYOKA: Can you please explain in pure Xhosa what you are saying because there are other interpretations that are being made now. Pure, pure Xhosa, not Zulu.
MR MJIKWA: I stayed in Pretoria amongst many cultures and different languages that affected me. This is why I speak this pigeon, because the people that I lived with did not speak Xhosa, this is why I speak such a pigeon.
MR NYOKA: Just try to remember your mother tongue on that aspect because it's to your disadvantage what you said now. Try and remember in Xhosa what you just said, how you assaulted the Traffic Officer, or how you dealt with him.
MR MJIKWA: I hit him with a gun that I had been carrying, in the head.
MR NYOKA: So you hit him, not shot him? You hit him?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, I hit him.
MR DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)
MR NYOKA: That's always the case with Pretoria, Mr Chairperson.
MR MJIKWA: He handed over. I heard someone saying to the Traffic - advising - I just heard a voice, trying to advise the Traffic Cop not to go after us because he was going to be in great danger. That is it as far as the Traffic Cop is concerned.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you steal his gun?
MR MJIKWA: I grabbed it from him.
MR NYOKA: Is that all that you want to say as far as incidents are concerned, no other ...(intervention)
MR MJIKWA: Correct.
MR NYOKA: Just briefly, which organisation did you become involved in before, that is 1987 to 1990?
MR MJIKWA: Uitenhage Youth Congress. It was affiliated to UDF.
MR NYOKA: And when you disarmed or robbed the victims, did you take anything else except the arms, the firearms?
MR MJIKWA: We would not take anything else unless we'd find extra bullets and then we would take the bullets as well.
MR NYOKA: What was the aim for disarming or robbing them or their firearms and ammunition?
MR MJIKWA: We wanted to protect ourselves against our enemy.
MR NYOKA: And did you acquire the ammunition separately from the firearms which you took, or was it included in the firearms?
MR MJIKWA: We'd find the bullets in the firearms when we take the firearms.
MR NYOKA: Why - can you tell me why the Traffic Officer, why did you have rob the Traffic Officer?
MR MJIKWA: We identified or we perceived the Traffic Officer as supporting or being part of the structures of the Government.
MR NYOKA: And Mr Yose is here today, sitting amongst the audience. What can you say to him about that incident? Briefly, no long speech.
MR MJIKWA: I'm sorry that we had to use force with him to get the firearm. I did not know him personally, but because of his job he became our target. It was not a personal thing, but it was because of his job and his position in the structures thereof.
MR NYOKA: Does that sentiment also apply to the families of the dead Policemen, present or absent in the hall?
MR MJIKWA: Correct.
MR NYOKA: Finally, did you do the things, perpetrate the deeds for personal gain?
MR MJIKWA: I did not want to gain anything personally, I just wanted to arms so that we could protect ourselves and fulfil out goals.
MR NYOKA: Did you have any animosity or hatred against the persons who were victims like those that were murdered or robbed? Did you have anything against them?
MR MJIKWA: No, because I did not know these people personally, but because of their jobs, that caused them to be targets.
MR NYOKA: Finally, when you committed the murders that you committed, did you take the murder and the robbery as separate incidents, or as one incident?
MR MJIKWA: I perceived it as one and the same thing.
MR NYOKA: And did you convey that to you previous attorney as such when you made a statement to him?
MR MJIKWA: I told Mr Ngonunu this, but because he's human and fallible, he can make mistakes here and there.
MR NYOKA: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA
MR GQOMA: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR GQOMA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Mr Mjikwa, in your opening statement you said that during those times, 1986, you were radicalised by the organisations that were there. Which organisations did you refer to?
MR MJIKWA: Organisations like the UDF or UYUKO.
MR MAPOMA: Where you a member of UYUKO at the time?
MR MJIKWA: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: You went further to say that you got enemies as a result of you being a member of those organisations. What were those enemies - who were those enemies?
MR MJIKWA: The people that were supporting the Government, that was the enemy of the organisations of which I was a member.
MR MAPOMA: Whom do you refer to specifically?
MR MJIKWA: I'm talking about the Police, they were defending the Government of the day. All the agents that the Government used, those are the people that I was talking about. Ama-Africa at that time, Witdoeke, and others.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the last one, sorry?
MR DE JAGER: Witdoeke
CHAIRPERSON: Witdoeke.
MR MAPOMA: Now, this comrade Sokelela and Fikele Gobese, were they members of any political organisation?
MR MJIKWA: They were our leaders, we regarded them as our leaders.
MR MAPOMA: Are they the people who were organising that you skip the country?
MR MJIKWA: Comrade Fikele was the one who tried to organise a place for me to hide, as I was being harassed. Comrade-Major is comrade Sokelela, he took me to Mtanzania. Comrade Gobese was not there then. I don't know whether comrade Gobese knew that comrade Sokelela would take me Mtanzania.
MR MAPOMA: Now let us come to the attack of these Policemen, all these incidents. Do you know of any policy which was - from the UDF that these Policemen must be killed?
MR MJIKWA: UDF was a non-violent organisation, but because of the actions of the Government that was using the Police in our Townships, we as the youth had to take steps to protect ourselves against the Police that were killing us. Informers and Police were not wanted in the community. Even though there was no leader perhaps, according to my knowledge, that said or gave an order for Police to be killed, we used our discretion to fulfil the goals of the organisation.
MR MAPOMA: Now I take it that when you attacked these Policemen, your objective was to disarm them and get the weapons, and not to kill them?
MR MJIKWA: There's one thing that should be clear, in the struggle for liberation - the Police and anybody who supported the Government or worked with the Government, the same Government that was being fought by the liberation structures, they became targets, our targets. The Police then had to be killed by the Freedom Fighters because if you were attacking the Government of the day you had to attack the Police first or its soldiers, or anybody, any agent that was protecting the Government that I was fighting against.
MR MAPOMA: Your objective was to get weapons, did you want to get those weapons yourselves, that is yourself and your friend, Makhuleni and Ngelo?
MR MJIKWA: No, we wanted to protect ourselves and the people in our community as the situation in Uitenhage was very similar to the situation in KwaZulu Natal or Port Elizabeth where Azapo was rife, and other places. Moreover, even if there was no black on black violence, that did not mean that the Police were not legitimate targets, because there was no black on black violence.
MR DE JAGER: What did you do with all the weapons?
MR MJIKWA: I was arrested with the firearm I had taken from the Traffic Officer, also Makhulene was arrested with the firearm that we had taken from the municipal Police that we'd attacked. Zolegeli had the other firearm, he knows what he did with it.
MR DE JAGER: What did you do with all the weapons that you robbed?
MR MJIKWA: I was arrested in 1987, I was arrested with a firearm.
MR DE JAGER: No, I understand, but you didn't hand the weapons over to your Organisation?
MR MJIKWA: There was no need because the Organisation had not asked us to go and get firearms, we'd used our own discretion to fight the Government. We had been enlightened and educated in such a way that when the Government oppressed the people, after we were enlightened in such a way, we realised that there was a need to fight against this Government.
MR DE JAGER: I understand, so you were not acting on instructions of your Organisation, they didn't tell you, go and disarm the Police and get the weapons. You acted under your own discretion?
MR MJIKWA: Sir, at the time we were not members of MK as such, we would have to wait for a commander to give us an order. We used our own discretion.
INTERPRETER: The applicant had said that he was caught with firearms, not a firearm, earlier on.
MR MAPOMA: Now during 1990 which Organisation did you belong to?
MR MJIKWA: I did not join any new organisation in 1990, I was still a member of the Uitenhage Youth Congress, even though the ANC was unbanned at the time.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, I'm asking that question because the UDF had disbanded and the ANC was taking over, and there was an ANC Youth League for the Uitenhage Youth Congress.
MR MJIKWA: That is correct, there was an ANC Youth League in 1990, but the ANC was unbanned. It would have been difficult for all of us as the Uitenhage Youth Congress at the same time to go and join the ANC. I was still being harassed at the time, it would have taken time, I would have probably joined the ANC after some time. If there was enough time for me to join the ANC Youth League I would have done that.
MR MAPOMA: Let's come to the incident of the robbery of the Traffic Officer. Which one took place first, the 28th and the incidence where you robbed the Policeman?
MR MJIKWA: The first incident concerns the Traffic Cop.
MR MAPOMA: And during that incident you had the weapon already?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, I did.
MR MAPOMA: Where did you get that weapon?
MR MJIKWA: I got it from Cradock, I was with some comrades, comrade Harare if I'm not mistaken, was present. Yes, he was there, but I don't remember the others, I think there were four of us when we went to fetch the firearm. Even then I was expecting to get more firearms, but unfortunately I couldn't get more, so the comrade said that he would give me a firearm, we should go to Grahamstown. That is how I got that firearm, that's how I know that comrade.
In 1985 I was arrested for having burned a car or set a car alight. I met this comrade at the St Albans Prison.
MR MAPOMA: Have you applied for amnesty for possession of that firearm?
MR MJIKWA: I don't know what eventually came of that firearm because Zolegeli had it.
MR MAPOMA: When you were charged, did you not have that firearm in your possession?
MR MJIKWA: I don't understand your question, please repeat it.
MR MAPOMA: Okay, when you were arrested by the Police and charged, were you charged for possession of that particular firearm, the one that you already had before you attacked the Traffic Officer?
MR MJIKWA: No, I was never charged with possession of that firearm.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Just one question, Mr Chairperson. You were asked by the Evidence Leader - sorry, you were the question that to the effect that you were not acting under the instructions of any Organisation. Is it your evidence that though that may have been the case, you were acting to pursue your objectives of rendering the Townships in particular, and South Africa governable, is that so?
MR MJIKWA: Correct.
MR NYOKA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA
MR POTGIETER: Mr Mjikwa, you said that Mr Gobese and Mr Sokelela, they were your leaders, some of your leaders at this time that you told us about.
MR MJIKWA: Yes, comrade Gobese and comrade Sokelela, we perceived them as our leaders.
MR POTGIETER: In which structures were they involved?
MR MJIKWA: Under the UDF.
MR POTGIETER: And if I understand your evidence correctly they had rendered you assistance after you were involved in all these things, they were helping you to go into hiding and so on?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR POTGIETER: Were you ever reprimanded by any of the Organisations that were operative in Uitenhage at the time for anything that you had done, or any of these incidents that you spoke to us about?
MR MJIKWA: No.
MR POTGIETER: The Uitenhage Youth Congress, were they also pursuing a policy to fight the system and the Government at the time?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, clearly.
MR POTGIETER: Then just one other thing, your application form for amnesty is not as explicit as it could be and we have to deal with that and we have to decide how to approach your application. Was it your intention when you completed the application when you applied for amnesty, to ask for amnesty in respect of all of these things that you spoke to us about, or what was your intention?
MR MJIKWA: First of all, I did not complete this form, but my intention was to apply for amnesty for everything that I've spoken of here today.
MR POTGIETER: Your form - or the application form seems to be in respect of incidents between 1987 and 1990, would that be correct, was that the period involved that you wanted to ask amnesty for, for incidents during that particular period?
MR MJIKWA: Yes.
MR POTGIETER: And are you asking us to regard your application form as covering everything that you have spoken to us today?
MR MJIKWA: Could you please repeat the question, sir.
MR POTGIETER: Do you want - I've explained to you before, I started on this line that your form is not very explicit, it could be much more explicit, and what I'm asking you is, do you request us to regard this form as covering all of the incidents that you spoke to us about today?
MR MJIKWA: Yes, sir.
MR POTGIETER: Thank you.
MR POTGIETER: One matter I want you to clear up for me please. Who got you your passport?
MR MJIKWA: Comrade Sokelela has the information because he brought the passport. But when I went to take the photographs for the passport I was with his brother, comrade Tlawene Sokelela from Tanzania.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he say what organisation helped you to get it, was it the UDF or the ANC, or who?
MR MJIKWA: The people that helped me get the passport were comrade Sokelela, who I perceived as my leader.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know how he got it?
MR MJIKWA: No, I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll mark the opening statement, copies of which are now being supplied to all of us, as "D". We will now adjourn till 14h00.
HEARING ADJOURNS
