CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all. I respectfully declare these proceedings opened, this, the 18th day of January 1999. These proceedings being amongst the first to be held by the Truth and Reconciliation's Amnesty Committee in the new year. Before we commence, may I welcome you all and take this opportunity further to convey the best wishes of this Committee to you all in the new year and not forgetting particularly our diligent staff comprising the logistics officers, the media people, our evidence leader and their analysts, our general staff, without whose support we would not be able to conduct these proceedings as effective as we've been able to. I also want to convey my best wishes to members of the translation services without whose assistance it would be impossible and very cumbersome to conduct these proceedings. My also best wishes to members of the media who have played a very important role in enabling the Commission and this Committee to achieve its important objective. Also my best wishes to members of the legal profession whose assistance has been at most of the best of times very good but at other times quite painful but indispensable. Ms Patel, are we ready to proceed?
MS PATEL: We are, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Which matter are we starting with?
MS PATEL: We'll start with the matter of Jeffrey Mfazo, application number 3888/96.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, before we proceed may I introduce the panel which will be sitting for this week to hear all the applications set down for the week? On my right hand side I have Advocate Motata. On my left hand side Advocate Bosman. Will you please kindly place your names on the roll, the legal counsel appearing in the next matter?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: For the record, Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to proceed with your matter?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I'm ready to proceed and in this matter I don't have any supplementary affidavit to assist us in leading the applicant. I'll lead the applicant orally, Mr Chairperson. May the applicant be sworn in Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the applicant speaks Xhosa.
CHAIRPERSON: Xhosa?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata will you please administer the oath?
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.
GEOFFREY M MFAZO: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, can you for the record put your names - tell the Committee your names, your full names?
MR MFAZO: My name is Jeffrey Mfazo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, is it correct that you are staying at 281 Eloff Street in New Brighton, Noupoort?
MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And that you were born on the 21st October 1969?
MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were a supporter of PAC during the time of 1993?
MR MFAZO: Yes I was a PAC supporter.
MR MBANDAZAYO: In particular around the 4th April 1993?
MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you start to be a supporter of PAC?
MR MFAZO: I started in 1989.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee does the PAC at that particular moment during the time of April 1993 had any members or branch in Noupoort, in your township?
MR MFAZO: Yes there were members but there was no branch.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, do you still remember the events of the 4th April 1993 which led to you being convicted?
MR MFAZO: Yes I can still remember.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee where were you on the day in question and what happened?
MR MFAZO: On the 4th April I was in the squatter camp at KwaZulu at a shebeen in ...[indistinct]. We were drinking there. There was a person by the name of Thozamele Induna with his friends who were there drinking with us. As they were sitting there discussing about the organisation, but they later said that in my presence they cannot discuss anything about that organisation but I told ...
CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt Mr Mfazo? As you are giving your evidence it is being translated so I would appreciate if you could go a little slower to enable the translators to be able to pick up each and every word you are saying.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was being said by organisations at the shebeen?
MR MFAZO: We were sitting there discussing about the issues concerning the organisation and they later decided to keep quiet because I was there. I don't know what is it they were discussing.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What organisation were they talking about that you were not ...[inaudible]
MR MFAZO: They were ANC members.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed then, what happened after they said that they must stop talking because somebody was not a member of the ANC?
MR MFAZO: I continued drinking and Thozamele Induna was arguing with me and we had a quarrel thereafter and I told him thereafter that I was not there for the organisation issues, I was there to drink and I kept on drinking. After that I left for the toilet. I realised that they were following me, it was himself and Sipho. I heard a knock at the toilet and he was already inside and I told him that I was inside the toilet. When I went out of the toilet they were in front of the door. I heard stabbing, stabbing me at the back, that was Sipho stabbing me. When I realised that I took my knife and Thozamele also had his knife. I stabbed him and he turned and he ran away and I also ran away. I saw a police casspir outside. I was lying in the graveyard because the people were pursuing me. When the police van left I went home and when I arrived home I was told that the police were there looking for me at my home. I went straight to the police station. When I arrived there I introduced myself there and I told them I heard the police were looking for me. They phoned the other police station and the police van came and they took me into the van. I was taken to that police station, the other police station. I saw an I.D. document there in that police station, it was on the chair and there was a trouser, a pair of trousers and a shirt soaked in blood and I was told that the person had died. I got a shock because it was not my intention to kill him. I was then arrested.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay Mr Mfazo, let's go back then to the - where this incident took place. After you went to the toilet and there was a knock and you came out of the toilet and you met the two, the deceased and this Sipho, was there anything said to you there or they just stabbed you?
MR MFAZO: Nothing was said, they just stabbed me and I also took out my knife.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know the reason for them stabbing you?
MR MFAZO: The reason was that we had a quarrel before previously. I think there was a grudge.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you tell the Committee what was this grudge about or the quarrel, what was it about?
MR MFAZO: We had a quarrel over a girl.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And at the time when they came to you, who actually quarrelled with you over a girl?
MR MFAZO: That was previously, it was not on this particular day, this quarrel over a girl took place at some time before the real incident.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm saying is that who quarrelled with you over a girl amongst the two gentlemen, Sipho and the deceased?
MR MFAZO: It was Thozamele.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now my question again is that since you have already told the Committee that they did not say anything, they just stabbed you. You told the Committee that you did not know the reason except that you had a quarrel with them. So every time when they stabbed you, you thought that is because of that quarrel over a girl?
MR MFAZO: The quarrel that we had, it was because of the fact that I was a PAC member and they were ANC members. They wanted to recruit me and I told them that I'll never ever - I'll never join ANC, that was my own choice to be a PAC member, that was my own choice.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, during your trial you told the court that the knife you stabbed the deceased with, you took it from him and today you are telling the Committee that you drew your own knife. Can you tell the Committee what is the difference today?
MR MFAZO: The reason for that I wanted to be free, I was trying to escape conviction.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that during the trial Sipho told the court that you are the person who called the deceased, you were outside and you called the deceased and he did not know what you were talking about there and he saw you chasing the deceased. What do you say to that?
MR MFAZO: That is not true.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct to say that you were eventually convicted of this offence in 1995, on the 26th May 1995?
MR MFAZO: Yes I was convicted for this case while I was still on trial. They went to my house, they broke into my house and they burnt down my house. The ANC members were looking for petrol, they wanted to burn down my house, my home. After the trial I realised that in the township they don't need me. I went to Cape Town and I told the magistrate that I did not have a place to stay and I was leaving for Cape Town. They told me that they would contact me on certain dates so I had to stay in contact. I did that but just before the last date of the trial I didn't have money so I couldn't go to court. I was later arrested and the case was started all over again, I was sent to Noupoort in 1994. I was later released after the trial in November 1994, I was released and I was told to attend the court regularly whenever necessary until I was sentenced. I did that until I was sentenced.
MR MBANDAZAYO: My question was that you were convicted in May 1995 to five years imprisonment and you have just been released from jail, is that correct?
MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you, Mr Mfazo, is there anything you want to add to what you have already told the Committee about this incident?
MR MFAZO: There is nothing else.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairperson at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Do you have any questions Ms Ramula, to put to the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Mfazo, you stated in your evidence in chief that you said certain things at the trial merely because you didn't want to be convicted. What else did you tell the court that was a lie or was what you had alluded to in your evidence in chief the only thing you lied about regarding the knife?
MR MFAZO: What I said and that was not true it's the fact that the knife belonged to the deceased.
MS PATEL: And whatever else you told the court was correct as it had happened?
MR MFAZO: The only truth is the one that I'm saying here today in front of you.
MS PATEL: Right, let me ask you a few more specific questions then. At the court you told the magistrate there that you and the deceased were at a tavern together and that he was dancing there in front of you and that he kept knocking or that he knocked the table at which you were sitting at and that is how the argument started. Is that a lie or is that the truth?
MR MFAZO: That was not true.
MS PATEL: It's on page 48 of the bundle, it's part of the judgement, it's the second paragraph. So why did you make that up?
MR MFAZO: The reason for me to say that, I didn't want to incriminate myself there.
MS PATEL: Incriminate yourself how, how were you going to incriminate yourself by saying this?
MR MFAZO: I thought that I would escape conviction.
MS PATEL: What is it that you had done wrong that you thought you would be convicted of?
MR MFAZO: It's the fact that I stabbed Thozamele.
MS PATEL: But you've just told us that you stabbed him because they had attacked you and that there were two of them and you had to defend yourself, that's not grounds for a conviction? You were the victim here, not so?
MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: So then why the need for the lies?
MR MFAZO: The reason for me to lie, I was very shocked on hearing that Thozamele had passed away, I was still a little bit dizzy.
MS PATEL: And that's why you lied at the court?
MR MFAZO: Yes, that is correct.
MS PATEL: What was the time difference between this incident and when you had actually gone to court for the trial? How long after did you go to court with this because you had told us already that you'd ran away from home and you'd gone to Cape Town and eventually after a long time this matter came to court. So were you still dizzy after all this time?
MR MFAZO: It was after a long time, it was after a long time after the incident. It was a long time after the incident.
MS PATEL: Okay and you're sure you only stabbed him once?
MR MFAZO: Yes I stabbed him only once and he turned away and I also ran away.
MS PATEL: And you say that you were stabbed as well?
MR MFAZO: Yes I was stabbed as well.
MS PATEL: Where were you stabbed?
MR MFAZO: At my back.
MS PATEL: Did you receive treatment for this?
MR MFAZO: It was just a minor wound.
MS PATEL: Did you inform the police about this?
MR MFAZO: Yes I told the police and I showed them and they told me that it was just a minor wound, there was no need for me to go to the doctor.
MS PATEL: Why did you not say this at the trial, why did you not tell the magistrate that you were stabbed as well?
MR MFAZO: I told that story before the magistrate.
CHAIRPERSON: I think he did that, the only thing that he did not disclose to the magistrate was that he had been stabbed by Sipho.
MS PATEL: I'm sorry, I withdraw that question.
Did the deceased hit you at all?
MR MFAZO: No.
MS PATEL: At the trial it was said that there was an altercation between you and the deceased before he was in fact stabbed. Do you deny that at all?
MR MFAZO: Please repeat your question?
MS PATEL: At the trial it was said that there was a fight before the stabbing between yourself and the deceased. Did that ever happen?
ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel, may I just ask you for clarification, to which lines you are referring because I seem to remember that it was said that it was an argument but not a fight. Could we just get clarity on that?
MS PATEL: Page 50 of the judgement, the second paragraph, the magistrate had said that
"He was the person who started the fight. He is the person who hit the deceased first with the fist."
and at the end of the paragraph it says:
"he was the assailant on that particular evening."
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
MS PATEL: Do you deny that?
MR MFAZO: There was no fight, when I went out of the toilet I was stabbed and I had to take my knife and stab also but there was no fight.
MS PATEL: Regarding the conflict, you'd mentioned that there was conflict between the ANC and the PAC in the area. Can you elaborate on that? What was the nature of this conflict?
MR MFAZO: It was not a conflict but the ANC members were against me because I was a PAC member, it was not a conflict that was caused by the organisation, the whole organisation, but it was only individuals from the ANC organisation who were fighting me because I was a member of the PAC.
MS PATEL: And what was this about specifically?
MR MFAZO: I said before that there was a grudge that was held against me. I don't think the reasons were based on the fact that they wanted me to join the organisation, I think there was a grudge between myself and them.
CHAIRPERSON: Which them are you referring to Mr Mfazo, can you name the persons that you had grudge with?
MR MFAZO: It was Thozamene Induna and Sipho.
CHAIRPERSON: So when you say that the members of the ANC were against you because you were not a PAC member, you are in fact referring to two persons and that's the deceased and his friend Sipho?
MR MFAZO: Yes because they indicated that the identified me because they even went to my house and they broke into my house and burnt it down.
CHAIRPERSON: When was that? Was that before the stabbing took place?
MR MFAZO: It was when I was still in jail.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes but the question which was posed to you by Ms Patel was that what was the reason for them having a grudge against you. Now she is referring to obviously a period before the stabbing took place.
MR MFAZO: Just before the stabbing we had a argument there and then I told them that I was not there at the shebeen to discuss about the organisation's issues. I was only there to drink and thereafter they decided to follow me when I went to the toilet and I didn't know what their intention was.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.
MS PATEL: The grudge that you refer to, it was really about this woman wasn't it? That was the real reason, it was about this woman, it wasn't about the discussion that you would have had or that you allegedly had whilst you were still in the shebeen?
MR MFAZO: Yes the grudge was about the girl that we had an argument or quarrel about.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mfazo?
MR MOTATA: I've got none Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: I've no questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to call any further witnesses in support of your client's application?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson, that's the only witness I have.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you closing your application?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel do you propose to lead any evidence?
MS PATEL: No I don't, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That being the case, are you in a position to give us your oral address Mr Mbandazayo, which we hope will be short?
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I ready to proceed with the argument Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson, the issues that are clear in this matter is that this took place in a shebeen and it's clear that people were drunk and of course it's known those times many issues do come up in a shebeen like political arguments on organisations. It's clear that even this one was on that context but surpassing, I must consider it was the first time that this one of woman come up, I consider that one, I was not aware of that one. I thought that it was political all the way, it was revolving around the organisation. I did not know that there's another issue, it came up during - now my leading of evidence that there was something else but if we would take the evidence of the applicant, though he is not saying in so many words as eloquent as one would put it, the way I understood his evidence is that he thought that what they did to him was because they had a grudge which was as a result of a quarrel over a girl and this grudge was couched in political terms, in terms of ANC/PAC politics. That's how I understood it that though this quarrel was about - started there as ANC/PAC organisation, but he believed that it was because of the grudge over a girl though it was couched in ANC/PAC. Now my argument would be that if then that at that time he believed that it was ANC/PAC thing, then he had a right to act in the way he did but now one would ask the question why wouldn't then if you knew that this was nothing to do with the ANC/PAC but it's over a girl now you apply for amnesty when you know that it has nothing to do with politics? Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I wouldn't be able to answer that one, I'll leave it as it is but what I want the Committee to take into account is that the applicant has been honest enough to come even to tell the Committee about that, we didn't know that there was a question of a girl and it shows that he is an honest person, he's telling the Committee what - he has nothing to lose, he has been released, he has served his term, he is out of jail. He has nothing to lose, he is not going to go back to jail, he has no reason to come and lie to this Committee and as such I would like the Committee to take those into account when they are deciding whether this matter deserves that the applicant should be granted amnesty. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you therefore conceding that from the evidence that has been given to this Committee, no case has been made for the granting of amnesty as the applicant has himself stated quite unequivocally that the motive for the killing was because of the grudge he had over a girl with the deceased? That being so, can that be any reason to still consider this application?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I don't know whether maybe I didn't get it correctly in the meantime, I thought that, ...[indistinct] that he believed that they have a grudge over him, not necessarily that he himself had a grudge against them.
CHAIRPERSON: My notes indicate that on the question posed by Ms Patel towards the later part of her cross-examination, the applicant considered that there was a grudge that he and Thozamele had over the girl, that was the evidence and those are the way my notes are reading.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if that's the case I would concede if that's the position Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, though myself I interpreted, I thought that he's saying that Thozamele had a grudge against him over the quarrel which ensued over a girl, that Thozamele had a grudge against him, not necessarily that he himself had a grudge against Thozamele.
CHAIRPERSON: If I were to take your line of argument, if he did not himself had a grudge against Thozamele, has he made any - has he advanced any reason that would give him a political motive to have acted the way he did?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I must concede that it's a very thin line, one would look for it in order to come to that conclusion. You'd have to stretch your mind to come to that conclusion when the only conclusion will be that because of the quarrel that they were discussing political issues and that it was said that we can't discuss this in the presence of a member of another political organisation and after that he left and thereafter they followed him and they stabbed him. One would only assume that it was because of that otherwise Chairperson, there's nothing which one would say is direct that this was indeed a political motivated factor.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact Mr Mbandazayo, during your leading of your client in his evidence in chief you asked him what was the reason for the stabbing and I have my notes are saying
"The reason I stabbed him was because we previously had a quarrel over a girl and we had a grudge"
and I think that was his evidence in chief pursuant to your own line of questioning. Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I don't think there's any need to lead argument in this matter except to urge that the application be denied for not having complied with the requirements of the Act.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, Mr Mbandazayo, this Committee will be in a position to pronounce it's decision tomorrow morning. I don't think there's a need for Mr Mfazo to be present when we do so because you will be here to represent his interest.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Patel are we ready to proceed with the next application?
MS PATEL: I'm in the hands of Mr Mbandazayo in that regard Honourable Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I would like to know which one we are - there's Dingane, Wanga and Mpotso, Molefe, I would like - which one are we going to be the second, I'm not sure which one is going to follow Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we were advised earlier on by Ms Patel that you would be consulting with Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga with a view of leading both applicants once we are through with the first matter that we would have decided to embark upon so we are ready to hear Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga if you are ready to proceed and lead their evidence but if you want to start with Mr Mpotso and Mr Molefe would also be able to hear their evidence. We are completely at your hands.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason why I'm asking is that Wanga arrived, Dingane arrived a little bit later now when the applicant Mfazo was arriving so that we were going to start because they brought a wrong Dingane initially so I was not - could not be in a position to consult with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you in that case properly request us to give an indulgence of a few minutes to complete your application in respect of the Dingane and Wanga matter and then advise us as soon as you are through so that we can foresee it in respect of that matter?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, I'll be in a position to proceed within twenty minutes with that matter.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll grant you that indulgence, we are aware that you've been given great difficulties by our office and these delays are not of your own making but of our own making and we wish to apologise and hope that things will be sorted out so that in future we'll maybe able to start timeously.
Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for about twenty minutes when we'll be starting with the next matter, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
