AARON XAGISO DINGANE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.
Mr Dingane, you have heard Mr Wanga, do you confirm what has been said by Mr Wanga in as far as it relates to yourself and you abide by that?
MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dingane, just a few questions then I would like you to tell the Committee about your membership of PAC. When did you join PAC?
MR DINGANE: I joined in 1976 under Dennis Siwisa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you at any stage in your membership of PAC become a member of another organisation like AZAPO BCM?
MR DINGANE: No.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee how did you meet Mr Wanga?
MR DINGANE: I met Mr Wanga when we had our unit in Vierplaas. Mr Wanga was introduced to me by our commander, Mr Jabu Mdunge when we first met.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that he had something to do with BCM?
MR DINGANE: No I didn't.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now in your application you were asked - in paragraph 11(a) at page 5, Chairperson - was the act committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf or of the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement concerned and you said that orders from Azanian Peoples Liberation Army and Mr Wanga has told the Committee that the order was given by Mr Mdunge, Jabu Mdunge. Why didn't you mention as a commander of the unit, as it has been alleged, mention the name of the person who gave you the order?
MR DINGANE: There are technical mistakes because of the place that we are staying in. Some of the things are forgotten when you write down.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, in any event in 11(b) it says
"If so, state particular of such order, approval and date hereof and if not the name and address of the persons who gave such an order or approval."
and you wrote there:
"To attack the white farms."
Are you saying to the Committee that the order you were given by whoever gave you like Jabu Mdunge was to attack the white farms and nothing was specific, it was just a general order that you attack the white farms?
MR DINGANE: First of all Chairperson, I want to clarify this. Number one I am not here to ask for amnesty for the liberation struggle, to liberate the people of Azania. Secondly, the order was from our commander, Jabu Mdunge. I don't regret what I did at all.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, won't you again repeat your question to your client because he doesn't seem to understand what you want him to respond to.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Dingane, my question is to you, you wrote in paragraph 11(b) that whatever was given to you was to attack the white farms. Now my question is, you said that the order you were given, you were given orders by Jabu Mdunge, was the order generally as you put it here that just to attack the white farms, nothing was specific. How do you attack the white farms, it was just general that you go and attack white farms, that was the order given by him?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, first of all we would go and reconnoitre the place and before we go to that place we would have a meeting and then after the meeting we would then take steps and we would go and attack that particular place.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, you counsel doesn't want you to give him the modus operandi of your operations, do you understand that? He simply wants to understand whether you were given general instructions or was it a general order on what you were to do or were you given a specific order or is the order as you were given by Mdunge as indicated at paragraph 11(b) which was general, to attack white farmers?
MR DINGANE: We were repossessing Chairperson. The situation that we were living under, there was nobody to liberate us, we had to liberate ourselves. Our struggle was directed to our enemy because the white people came to our country and they took our land.
ADV MOTATA: Let me just stop you there, Mr Dingane. Please, the question is simple. When Jabu Mdunge gave you orders, did he say attack white farms in general, forget about the struggle and the enemies? Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane may I suggest that if you do not understand a question it is perfectly - you are in a position to find out from your legal representative to repeat himself if you have not fully comprehended what he wants you to respond to. Please feel free to do that rather than having to respond to a question that you have not fully comprehended, thereby leading to wrong evidence being transcribed and asked relying on the wrong evidence?
MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm indebted to the Committee, Chairperson.
Mr Dingane, Mr Wanga told the Committee that whatever you took from whichever operation, you were handing over to Jabu Mdunge and in paragraph 10(d) of your application where it is said that:
"if so explain the nature and extent of such benefits."
With the R7000 that was robbed, we were able to find our unit so that we can be able to continue with the struggle"
Am I correct to interpret that paragraph to say that the amount of money you robbed from Mr Claassen's farm was used to finance your unit to be able to continue with the struggle?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, as I've already said, as Wanga has already said, whatever we'd get during an operation we'd hand it over to our commander Jabu Mdunge.
CHAIRPERSON: But please answer the question, the question is was the money used to finance your unit in order to continue with the struggle, that is the question that has been posed to you by your counsel, yes or no?
MR DINGANE: We would take the money and hand it over to Jabu Mdunge. Can you please repeat your question ma'am?
ADV MOTATA: Mr Mbandazayo, I would suggest that whilst you ask that question, 10(d), even show it to him what he wrote down there.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dingane, my question is Mr Wanga told the Committee that whatever you repossessed or robbed from whichever operation you were involved in, you were handing it to Jabu Mdunge. We have no problems about that, we are aware of that. Now my question is to you, want an explanation that in paragraph (d) of your application you say that the R7000 that you robbed, you were able to fund the unit in which you were to be able to continue with the struggle. Now my question is, is my interpretation correct when I say that the amount you robbed from Mr Claassen's farm, you used it for the benefit of your unit?
MR DINGANE: The money that we robbed from Mr Claassen, we took it and we handed it over to Mr Jabu Mdunge. In our unit there would be money that we would use maybe to buy petrol and such things, we would use some money for our unit to continue with the struggle.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was keeping the money for the unit?
MR DINGANE: It was Jabu Mdunge.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Mbandazayo, on that point probably in order to ...[indistinct] this matter. You are saying that you were provided by Mr Mdunge with some money to buy petrol for your unit. When was this money given to you?
MR DINGANE: This would not have been every time but it would happen when we saw that we needed money for petrol or we needed money to buy something and then he would take the rest.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes now forget about other times. The question is being directed with regard to the incident you've mentioned wherein you robbed Mr Claassens of R7000. Was that money used to finance your unit as you have alleged in your application at paragraph 10(d)?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, the money, some of the money, some of this amount we used it for the unit and then we handed the rest to Jabu Mdunge.
CHAIRPERSON: When you were from Mr Claassens place you went to the house at Vierplaas I suppose, that's the evidence we've heard from Mr Wanga. You opened the safe, you counted the money, you then - when did you take the part that you used for the sustenance of your unit and the balance that was given to Mr Mdunge. When and where?
MR DINGANE: When we opened the safe there was money left for the unit, I think it was about R200.
CHAIRPERSON: The R7000 that you have alleged in your papers, was it separate from the safe?
MR DINGANE: It was in the safe.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now what I want to know is you've just stated that you took a portion of the R7000 which you used for your unit and gave the rest to Mr Mdunge, have I understood your evidence correctly?
MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And at which point did you take a portion for your unit, was it before you went to Mr Mdunge or after you were with Mr Mdunge or probably when you were with Mr Mdunge would be the correct way of putting it?
MR DINGANE: It was during the time when we were with Mr Mdunge.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Dingane, was it your first time that you have been convicted of a criminal offence on this matter?
MR DINGANE: No it was not the first time, I was arrested before for the car theft.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was that offence related to any political objective?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you also apply for amnesty for that offence?
MR DINGANE: I was given two years suspended sentence for that offence.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes I know that, what I'm asking is that did you apply for amnesty for that offence?
MR DINGANE: No I didn't apply for amnesty.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you involved in any other offence?
MR DINGANE: I don't remember whether there is any other.
MR MBANDAZAYO: But it is possible there is another one?
MR DINGANE: Yes, together with this one.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what did you do with the car?
MR DINGANE: We would use this car when we were going to the Transkei.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When was that?
MR DINGANE: I think it was in 1983.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, a problem, there won't be one who is not on the same page as the evidence which is being led now. I do not see an incident that relates to the year 1983? I only have an incident that relates to 1985 in which a person was robbed of three firearms and a Toyota motor vehicle. I just - probably try and bring me up to speed?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I'm sorry, the one you are referring 1985 is the Grahamstown incident. I've asked him whether he was involved in any other incident and he mentioned another one of stealing the motor vehicle which is not related to the 1985 one that's why I was asking whether he had applied for amnesty whether it was political motivated.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
And at that time you committed this offence, who gave you an order to do that?
MR DINGANE: Jabu Mdunge.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you come into contact with Jabu Mdunge?
MR DINGANE: It was late 1983 or 1984.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And what you just told the Committee that the offence you are relating to is 1983?
MR DINGANE: Yes but I'm not sure about the year but I do have a car theft case between 1982/1983 but I'm not sure about the year.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I just for the purposes - were you - what name did you use at that time?
MR DINGANE: Mokapa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When you were arrested, what name did you give the police?
MR DINGANE: Eric Pupa.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this Mr Mbandazayo in respect of the 1983 incident?
MR DINGANE: Yes Chairperson, I wanted to clarify that one.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes we do have I think a record thereof which I think was inserted erroneously in our bundle.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, I don't think it was inserted Chairperson erroneously.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what my evidence leader advised me and actually instructed me to disregard that record.
MS PATEL: If I may respond Honourable Chairperson, the applicant has at nowhere in his application before us mentioned what he is testifying to now. We were also at no stage advised that Mr Puba and Mr Dingane are one and the same person, that comes as news to me and my office certainly had no knowledge of this according to my instructions in any event.
CHAIRPERSON: Just to clarify on that Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to use that record and if so for what purpose?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, Chairperson my understanding when I received the documentation I had the impression that Eric Pupa and Mr Dingane are one and the same person so I that impression that it has been put in this bundle specifically for that purpose as it has been done previously, where somebody has previous records. So I had that impression because I'm going through it and I found that I've seen no reason that it can be here and when I look at it and peruse it, that is why I was asking him, he has brushed with the law, that's why I was asking which name because I wanted it for the record because I see that it's one and the same person.
CHAIRPERSON: But he doesn't seek to apply for amnesty in respect of the 1983 application. We certainly do not have any applications before us in respect of that particular offence and would be unable to hear Mr Dingane with regard to that incident.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes thank you Chairperson, I was not intending I was just asking for clarification for the part of the record, to know that he was - had once brushed with the law and it was relating so that's why I was asking whether it was relating to any political offence.
Now Mr Dingane you indicated now that yourself you met Mr Mdunge quite sometime, about 1983/84 and what did you when you first met him, who introduced him unto yourself. Who introduced Mdunge to yourself?
MR DINGANE: I met him when we were recruiting people together with Mr Dennis Siwisa. Mr Dennis Siwisa is the one who introduced me to him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And what did he tell you about this Mdunge?
MR DINGANE: He told me that he was a member of the PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you yourself undergo any military training?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you train?
MR DINGANE: In the Transkei.
MR MBANDAZAYO: In which year?
MR DINGANE: It was late in 1983. I think it was in November 1983.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Under whose command were you training?
MR DINGANE: Under Mokapa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to conclude my ...[indistinct] of yourself, can you Mr Dingane tell the Committee why should you be granted amnesty on this incident? Why do you think this incident is politically motivated and that what you did was on behalf of APLA or you were given orders. Can you tell the Committee?
MR DINGANE: Yes I made this application because I got instructions or the orders from our commander Jabu Mdunge. We got instructions to further or to continue the liberation struggle in this country.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that amnesty should be granted to yourself because you were given an order by Jabu Mdunge or what you did was in pursuance of political struggle?
MR DINGANE: Yes because I was furthering the aims of the struggle, the political struggle, that's why I did what I did and that's why I made this application.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Dingane, you at the start of your evidence have confirmed the evidence of Mr Wanga insofar as it relates to you. Does that include having authorised the incident that occurred on the 27th November 1988, a day before the incident for which you now apply for amnesty?
MR DINGANE: Before we went to Kirkwood there is an incident that I gave them an order about. I wanted them to continue with the liberation in Kirkwood. I arrived there late and when I arrived there, there was a job that they had already done.
MS PATEL: At what stage did you then give them the instruction to carry out that operation that occurred on the 26th?
MR DINGANE: The operation on the 26th - I would like you to explain ma'am, there are two operations that took place in Kirkwood. There's Mr Claassen's operation and there's another operation. I was not charged for that because I arrived there late. We had already given them instruction to continue with the struggle in Kirkwood. We told them not to wait for us, there was a place that we planned to attack the following day, I arrived today and then the next day we attacked the next place.
MS PATEL: I don't understand, the operation that Mr Wanga was involved in without you, did that take place before the incident at Mr Claassen's farm or after?
MR DINGANE: I would like you to explain because there are two operations that Wanga was involved in that I was not involved. There was an operation that he was involved in on the day that we arrived in Kirkwood and there's another operation that he did when I was in prison so I'm not clear exactly to which operation you are referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, maybe you would be assisting him a great deal if you gave him particulars of the nature of the operation you are referring to?
MS PATEL: The incident that I'm referring to also occurred on a farm, it's called Euphesia, it's on the day before Mr Claassen's place was robbed, right? The owner at that farm was in fact tied up and the only things that were stolen according to my information is a T.V. and clothing. This is not the incident where it was alleged that Mr Wanga had raped somebody, this is not that incident. When the rape occurred you were in jail.
MR DINGANE: It is clear now. Yes I don't know about that incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Do I recall having put that incident to Mr Wanga? I don't recall or am I going a little tired for the day, did you put it to Mr Wanga.
MS PATEL: I did, Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And was that the incident which happened on the 26th or 27th November?
MS PATEL: The one that I'm now referring to where this applicant wasn't involved in was on the 26th November.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS PATEL: There is an incident where the rape was allegedly committed, was in 1989 when this applicant was allegedly in prison.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you are now referring to?
MS PATEL: The one on the 26th November.
CHAIRPERSON: Or the 27th?
MS PATEL: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Because the Kirkwood incident happened on the 28th?
MS PATEL: In any event the 27th or the 28th, whichever it may be, that's the Claassen incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS PATEL: That's not what I'm referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, are you able to comprehend what Ms Patel wants to get from you? Do you recall the incident, do you know anything about that incident? It happened a day before the Claassen's incident in Kirkwood.
MR DINGANE: Yes I do recall the incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you then proceed to respond to her questions?
MS PATEL: Okay, what were your instructions in terms of that incident?
MR DINGANE: The instructions in that incident, we wanted to get weapons and goods that we can find in the house to help the cadres from exile.
MS PATEL: And to whom did you give these instructions?
MR DINGANE: I gave them to Wanga.
MS PATEL: Only him?
MR DINGANE: No.
MS PATEL: Who else?
MR DINGANE: It was Wanga and Andries and the other one we used to call him Memani, Sandisile Memani.
MS PATEL: Okay and who had reconnoitred the place?
MR DINGANE: It was Vuyisile Andries who was responsible for that and after that we would go and see for ourselves, I also went there to reconnoitre. I also went there.
MS PATEL: When was this?
MR DINGANE: I think it was in 1988, November or September.
MS PATEL: And did Jabu Mdunge accompany you when you reconnoitred the place?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: Was Wanga with you when Jabu had reconnoitred the place?
MR DINGANE: When we left Port Elizabeth it was myself and Jabu, we found Wanga in Kirkwood. So I was the one who met them in Kirkwood. I was together with Jabu Mdunge.
MS PATEL: Didn't you say that you had arrived late? What did you mean when you said earlier on you had arrived late?
MR DINGANE: I didn't know exactly which incident you are referring to in Kirkwood because the incidents that happened when I was in prison and there was an incident that happened before I got there but the one Wanga mentioned I took part in that.
MS PATEL: No, your evidence if I recollect was that you had arrived late for this specific incident that we are now referring to. The other incident you couldn't have arrived late because you were in prison?
MR DINGANE: I didn't differentiate between these incidents. I didn't differentiate between the incident that Wanga was involved in when I was in prison and the incident that he was involved in when I was outside. It was not clear to me which incident you are referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Ms Patel?
Now issues being now clear in your mind, were you present when this incident took place? Were you present?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you say you reconnoitred the place together with Mr Mdunge, did that happen on the 27th or the 26th November? Did your reconnaissance happen on the day of the commission of the offence?
MR DINGANE: No, after we had reconnoitred the place we took two weeks before we attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: Did you then on the 26th go with Mr Wanga to this farm? Were you involved in the actual operation, that is my question?
CHAIRPERSON: He has already said he was involved Ms Patel.
MS PATEL: I'm sorry Honourable Chairperson you were saying?
CHAIRPERSON: I was saying he has already admitted his involvement in the operation.
MS PATEL: Mr Wanga at no stage mentioned that you were present with him. All he said was that you had authorised the operation. Can you explain?
MR DINGANE: Yes, he was supposed to say that because at the time I was driving a car there was a Toyota that we were using. I dropped them off there and I waited until they came back. I took part, I was part of that operation.
MS PATEL: Why did you wait for them to come, is it part of the planning?
MR DINGANE: Yes it was part of the planning.
MS PATEL: So then for the Claassen incident why didn't you also arrange for whoever had dropped you off to wait for you?
MR DINGANE: There was a place that we were supposed to go to so to save time we decided to continue with the job without the transport and the time that we were attacking this place we looked at the time and we were looking at the fact that the police are going to get the report or what. We attacked that place late and we knew that at that time it was dark so we would walk from that place.
MS PATEL: Are you saying that you attacked the Claassen's farm at night?
MR DINGANE: No, we attacked it around four or after four on a Saturday. It was in the afternoon but the distance that we were going to walk, we knew that at that time nobody will find us because it was late.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand Mr Dingane. Will you just come again? The reason why you didn't organise transportation was because by the time you would attack the Claassen's farm it would be dark? You had to attack the farm at about 4 o'clock in the afternoon which is fairly in broad daylight to me?
MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct, we attacked that shop in the afternoon but what happened is the transport would be used for other operations so to save time we decided to attack this place in the afternoon so that whatever happens, if the police had come, we would know that at that time we would have left the area, so we didn't need transport for that place because it would be already late.
CHAIRPERSON: But what if the police were to come around 4 o'clock, that in broad daylight anyone can see you. You would be looking quite suspicious wouldn't you and you were hoping to get all kinds of movable property I suppose for your unit, anything that would have been valuable and could be utilised to advance the struggle would be taken by you. You can't go into an operation and hope to take things that you would only put into your pocket? Now I still don't understand the reason you are advancing for not arranging for transportation when you would be attacking a farm when you were attacking this shop at 4 p.m. Do you agree that 4 p.m. there is still some sun, it's daylight, it's not dark?
MR DINGANE: First of all, concerning the police Chairperson, I know that when something happened it would be reported to the police and the police would go to that area. Secondly, we knew what we were going to do in Mr Claassens, we knew that we were going to take money so we didn't expect the money to be in an heavy object where we would need transport, we knew that we would be able to take that money with us, we won't need transport to transport that money, that is what I'm trying to explain.
ADV MOTATA: Did you have a watch with you?
MR DINGANE: I didn't have a watch but Mr Andries did have a watch.
ADV MOTATA: Let me come to your assistance probably as regards time. Would you agree with the police report which says this incident occurred at 18.40 hours, would they be right?
MR DINGANE: I'm not sure about the time I'm just guessing about the time because we didn't arrive at that place and attack at the same time. We waited so I'm not sure about the time. It was raining that day.
ADV MOTATA: Would it be more or less right then, 18.40 taking into account the wait and the rain not to wet you and the attack taking place at approximately 18.40, would that time be more or less right?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, I can't say that was the right time or what, I can't even say the time that I'm estimating is the right time or not because when you are in a mission it is very difficult to right down and say at a certain time I was doing this and this. I was not writing down what I was doing at that time, I was just guessing.
ADV MOTATA: Mr Dingane, listen quite carefully, you have told us that you had reconnoitred this place and Mr Wanga said you arrived there, you did not go immediately, you waited for the afternoon and you are saying to us now that it was a little darkish or it was dark and the Chairperson says no, no, no, no, 4 p.m. the sun is there, then I said the police investigated this matter because I've got documentation of that nature before me. Put it at 18.40 hours and you are giving us a long story, what I want to ask you is that would that time be more or less correct, I'm not saying you were looking at a watch and doing all sorts of things. I'm merely asking you is that more or less correct, if we were approaching the darkness which you were trying to arrive at to commit this robbery?
ADV BOSMAN: Do you understand that 18.40 is 20 to 7 in the evening?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson I didn't have a watch, so I wouldn't be sure about the time but it was in the afternoon and it was raining, that is why I'm saying that it was past four or it was 4 o'clock but what I know is that it was in the afternoon, it was late, about 4 in the afternoon. From 4 upwards it's late.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane I want you to proceed with how you recall events and disregard whatever comments we have made as a panel. You've already quite firmly stated that this operation was conducted in the afternoon even though it was raining. Ms Patel you may proceed.
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Dingane?
MR DINGANE: About what you just said about what we did when we got there I wanted to know about that.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I think Ms Patel will be asking you questions and you will respond the way you recollect the events to have happened so she will continue with her questions, I think we intervened whilst she was still putting questions to you. She will now - just listen to her questions and simply respond to what will be put to you.
MS PATEL: Can I just ask, you stated that you knew that you were only going there to get money but what about the weapons that you had intended stealing? Did you know what weapons were in that place before you went there?
MR DINGANE: We didn't know the kind of weapons that were there but we knew that the farmers do have weapons that are given to them by the apartheid government.
MS PATEL: What if it had turned out that Mr Claassen had a whole range of weapons there that you could have stolen, did you not think that it would have been dangerous for you to be seen walking around with a whole lot of weapons that you would have found? You see you clearly didn't know exactly what you were going to find, you could have found ten rifles, how did you know?
MR DINGANE: First of all I have explained that we attacked this place late, we arranged for this time so that we could be able to take anything that we can in that place. If we found some heavy stuff we would take that stuff and then we would try and get a car on our way.
MS PATEL: So are you saying the alternative plan would have been to steal a car on the way after you've robbed Mr Claassen if you had found too many goods that you thought you wanted to take but couldn't carry?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, we would take a car if we meet one on our way if we had a problem with the goods that we repossessed in that area.
MS PATEL: Okay can I ask, the car that was used to drop you off you said you couldn't wait because it was to be used in other operations. Which other operations was it used for specifically that evening?
CHAIRPERSON: That afternoon, Ms Patel.
MR DINGANE: We were not aware of each and every operation that would be done but we knew that it was going to be used because if it was taken to the other area we wouldn't ask what it was going to do, we were not required to ask everything all the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you not the commander of your unit and you as a commander as a unit wouldn't be one of your primary functions to make sure that your operations succeeded and that you took contingency measures in whatever way to make sure that it succeeded and invariably in a situation such as this, this would include transport and you'd be told by Mr Mdunge I suppose, was the only senior person over to you, why the car had to be used and what the car would be used for.
MR DINGANE: About the transport issue I would like you to repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: I am saying you were the commander of your unit, you've just said to Ms Patel that you didn't know what the car was going to be used for. Now I'm just concerned about your response because you're now talking like an ordinary foot soldier. You were the commander of your unit and as a commander of your unit your primary function would be to ensure that the conduct of your operation succeeded at all cost and that would involve having to take whatever contingency measures that you had been trained, as a commander, to take into account in ensuring that your operation succeeded and if a car was not going to be available for your operation, you would have been told by Mr Mdunge why the car would not be available for your particular operation and what it would be used for whilst you were busy with another operation. Now you are saying you don't know what the car was going to be used for, you are talking like a foot soldier and not like a commander. Surely some of these details you were made privy to as a commander of that unit?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, during those times, during the past regime, some of the things our commander wouldn't tell us, he would just do whatever he wanted to do so I didn't have a right to ask what this car was going to be used for, he had a right to tell me what to do and I was supposed to follow the instructions that I got from our commander.
MS PATEL: But Mr Dingane your entire unit was involved in this operation. If there wasn't a vehicle available to take you away from it, where was the urgency? Why couldn't you arrange it for a day later when perhaps - or a week later when the vehicle would be available? Surely it makes no sense to put your entire unit at risk and this especially since initially the evidence was that this was the first major operation that the unit was involved in?
MR DINGANE: As a soldier you are trained to be prepared for anything you come across so there are things that you had to do without transport no matter how difficult they are.
MS PATEL: Okay, let me make it simple for you, why couldn't you, simply, why couldn't you have arranged for a day when a car would be available, what was the problem with that?
MR DINGANE: There was no need for us to change to another day, we had to continue with that operation. If we changed the day maybe the information would be leaked out, maybe we would change the day and there would be problems with our operations so we had to do the operation according to our plan. There are a lot of things that would disturb us or you when we are operating. Maybe when we change that day there would be visitors in that area so our job would not continue. So we had to do what we did without transport, everything was planned so we had to do everything according to the plan.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose again Ms Patel? Mr Dingane, you've been sitting there when Mr Wanga was giving evidence and as it turned out there was a visitor on that day, a lady came in, that is the evidence that is before us so how can you use the fact that there might be a visitor coming in when you change the date of your operation? There was a visitor and that did not stop you from proceeding to carry out your operation.
MR DINGANE: Maybe if we have changed the day, maybe there would be a party on that particular day, so there was only one visitor on that day, maybe the other days we would find there is a party and there's a whole lot of people so we decided to do the job according to the plan.
MS PATEL: Mr Dingane, you don't seriously expect us to believe that but anyway, be that as it may, it's not a question.
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, I would like us to understand each other. The fact about, the point about visitors, maybe there would be visitors or not but if we change the day of the attack because of the transport, if we had to cancel the job because of that we wouldn't do that. That is why I'm saying that maybe if we change the day we would find that there's a party in that house or the information has leaked.
CHAIRPERSON: If the information would have leaked and you were a unit consisting of five members, how would the leak - how would it have happened? I mean just how probable would that have happened that the information about your intended operation gets leaked to Mr Claassens? How probable is that Mr Dingane?
MR DINGANE: The places that we used to have our meetings, we wouldn't know whether a person next door can hear or is able to hear what we were discussing. Maybe it happens that a person next door would be able to hear what we are discussing and in that way the information would leak.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you really a properly organised unit? We've already heard evidence that you had been in existence for over a year yet you can proffer such excuses for not postponing an operation which had not been properly prepared particularly when comes to an important feature of that operation which was transportation when you intended to steal weapons and you didn't know what kind of weaponry the Claassens had?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, you can take a weapon and run away with it so I've already said as a soldier you have to be prepared for any situation no matter how difficult it is.
CHAIRPERSON: What we find improbable is your explanation that if you had found heavy weaponry you would then have had to organise transport after you had conducted your operation. Now you're exposing yourself to all kinds of dangerous things and that wouldn't accord, Mr Dingane, with the behaviour of a disciplined unit as you would like us to believe that your unit was disciplined, that it had been in existence for almost a year?
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, as a soldier, a soldier is able to see an easy way out of a trouble. Transport was not a problem to us. We were able to take transport wherever we were.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
You say that you were able to take transport from wherever you were, what do you mean by that?
MR DINGANE: What I mean is taking a car that we meet, in the farmhouses we would take a car and use it, that's what I meant.
MS PATEL: Okay and you were sure that this would be possible in the event of the immediate?
MR DINGANE: If we needed a car we would get a car, we were sure of that.
MS PATEL: From one of the neighbouring farms?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: So that means that you would have reconnoitred the neighbouring farms as well?
MR DINGANE: First of all Kirkwood is a small town so this means that we won't have a problem getting a car, that would be a plan that would appear as at that time. We would meet a car and we would discuss that ways to get that car.
MS PATEL: You said that you'd undergone military training. For how long?
MR DINGANE: I was going to be trained for six months but I was shot and then I was trained for two months. I was shot.
MS PATEL: What do you mean you were short?
MR DINGANE: I was shot when we were attacking the soldiers in Soweto.
MS PATEL: Oh, you were shot, sorry. Sorry. But you say that you received your training in Transkei, what is your having been shot in Soweto have to do with your training period in Transkei?
MR DINGANE: What I mean is that I only trained for two months, at that time I was shot at.
MS PATEL: You were shot whilst on training in Transkei but you were shot in Soweto, can you explain this? Transkei and Soweto are very far from each other?
MR DINGANE: In 1985 there was a state of emergency, I was shot at that time during the state of emergency. We were attacking the soldiers in Soweto.
MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, correct me if I'm wrong, did this witness not say that he was trained in 1983?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes he was trained late in 1983 and in order to be precise he mentioned the month which was November and the training took place in the Transkei under the command of one Mogava.
MS PATEL: If that is correct which is what you've told us, what is your having been shot in 1985 got to do with your training in 1983?
MR DINGANE: I'm not surely about the year, Chairperson, I said between '83 and 1984 I went for the training in Transkei. Between November 1983 or 1984.
CHAIRPERSON: May I just tell you what your evidence was on that issue? You said you first came into contact with Mr Mdunge between 1983 and 1984. You said you're not sure, you said either '83 or '84. You however went on to state that you underwent military training in the Transkei in 1983 in November and went on to give us the name of the person who trained you which was Mr Mogava. Now you are free to change now if you've made a mistake but I just wanted to tell you that what Ms Patel is putting to you is what you in fact said. You're however free to change but don't change by suggesting that she is putting what you didn't say, that's what you said in your evidence?
MR DINGANE: I do hear you Chairperson. I would like to ask Ms Patel to repeat her question.
MS PATEL: Sorry Honourable Chairperson. You were saying that you had intended to undergo six months military training, but that you only underwent two months because you were shot, right? In Soweto. You then later brought up the state of emergency during 1985 and said that was the time when you were shot. My question to you was if you had said to us earlier that you had received, you had undergone your training in 1983, what does your having been shot in 1985 got to do with your shorter period of training that you would have received in 1983?
MR DINGANE: I didn't complete my training in 1983. We would be trained in different times because of security.
MS PATEL: My question to you initially was very simple Mr Dingane, I asked you for how long you'd been trained and you very simply said I intended six months but only went for two months. You didn't elaborate and say that there were other times that you had gone on training for?
MR DINGANE: Was that necessary Chairperson? Was that necessary for me to explain about the times?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dingane, I think it was necessary particularly because let me advise you, this is the evidence you gave in chief, you were asked by your lawyer to give to this Committee information about the military training that you underwent? You were being led by your legal representative, this is the information you gave and you did not indicate that this training actually took place in sessions in various sessions which took place at different periods, you didn't give that kind of information. As it is your evidence reads as training which took place in the Transkei in November 1983, there is no indication that it was interrupted for whatever reason, that it was then resumed in a different region. We don't have that evidence. Yes, you were supposed to have given those details, one would have expect that if you give information about your military training you would give full particulars of your military training?
MR DINGANE: Thank you Chairperson. We were interrupted during the training, something happened. We were involved in a car accident.
CHAIRPERSON: May I on that point just for the sake of completeness and in understanding your evidence, I had not intended to interfere with Ms Patel nor with your legal representative. When you met Mr Mdunge in 1983, I take it that you had been trained as a cadre? Were you trained as an APLA cadre? You met Mr Mdunge late 1984 and to use your precision in November 1984.
MR DINGANE: 1983.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh 1983, yes. At that stage had you undergone any military training?
MR DINGANE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: You had not undergone any kind of military training?
MR DINGANE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Now recollect and try and recollect the best as you can. When did you first then undergo your military training which was interrupted because you have this motor vehicle accident?
MR DINGANE: I went to the Transkei in 1983. After I arrived in the Transkei I was trained for a month. After that I was involved in a car accident. After the car accident I came back to Port Elizabeth. I stayed here in 1984, I was not well.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and by the time you met Mr Mdunge you hadn't gone for any kind of training?
MR DINGANE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: And how long did you training in Soweto last?
MR DINGANE: I was not trained in Soweto I was trained in the Transkei.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you resume your training in the Transkei?
MR DINGANE: Yes for two months.
CHAIRPERSON: And when was that?
MR DINGANE: I started in 1983, after a month I was involved in this car accident. I then went back in 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: And how long did that training last?
MR DINGANE: ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: No, No, let's talk about 1985, you've already stated that the training in 1983 lasted for a month only. We want to know how long the training in 1984 lasted.
MR DINGANE: I was trained for a month again in the Transkei. If I can estimate a month plus a week or two. After that we came back to Port Elizabeth where I was shot.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you got shot in Soweto in 1985?
MR DINGANE: Yes I was shot.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you also shot in Port Elizabeth in the same year?
MR DINGANE: I was shot in 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it a slip of a tongue when you said Port Elizabeth just now?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, just for the clarity of the Committee, there's also a place called Soweto here in P.E. so that's the reason.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MBANDAZAYO: It's not meaning - that's why I say here in P.E. there's a place called Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh that really greatly assists us because when he speaks of Soweto we are thinking of Gauteng and that's why we are saying he got training in different regions. Thank you very much. Ms Patel please proceed?
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. So all in all you only received just over two months of training, is that correct?
MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.
MS PATEL: And what were you trained in?
MR DINGANE: I was trained at the base in the Transkei.
CHAIRPERSON: No, what did your training consist of?
MR DINGANE: I did a crash course, how to handle a gun and crawling and the weapon theory, how to dismantle a firearm.
ADV MOTATA: And where would this be in the Transkei, we are talking of something like we say the East Rand/Cape, where precisely was this training based in the Transkei?
MR DINGANE: In Kwadendane.
MS PATEL: Did you receive any political education whilst you were there?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: Okay, what was the nature of this political education?
MR DINGANE: The political education that we received, we were educated that we should liberate ourselves from the oppression and we had to try and remove the minority white government and replace it with the African government according to the needs of the Africans.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel how long do you think you'll still be with Mr Dingane? I'm just trying to take logistics into account having regard to the fact that not only us but other very significant role players in these proceedings might actually find it a little bit strenuous to continue too long. If you are going to be long we may have to adjourn, it's not something that's nice to adjourn when somebody is right in the middle of being cross-examined but I think it can't be avoided. Added to the fact that we are dealing with prisoners and correctional services does not like the idea of having to leave these premises late. We have been continuously warned and request that to take that sector into consideration when we do consider sitting late and no contingency measures were made with correctional services in that regard so I would be most reluctant to proceed later than we can. I think this is about the time that I would propose that we adjourn for tomorrow morning?
MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may just one question before we adjourn, thanks.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS PATEL: Mr Dingane, can you give me the codenames for all the members of your unit please?
MR DINGANE: It was Mr KK.
MS PATEL: Who was Mr KK?
MR DINGANE: It was Memani.
MS PATEL: Yes?
MR DINGANE: Mashula was B.
MS PATEL: Yes?
MR DINGANE: Shuga.
MS PATEL: Who was Shuga?
MR DINGANE: It was Sinacuo.
MS PATEL: Sinacuo?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: Okay. And?
MR DINGANE: Those are the ones that I still remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Don't you know the codename of your applicant, can't you remember him sitting next to you?
MR DINGANE: When we met with Wanga I think at that time we hadn't known each other for a long time. He was from the Soweto unit and there was also Vierplaas unit. There were two units.
CHAIRPERSON: No, all that I wanted to know was what was his codename? Ms Patel wants to know the codenames of the members of your unit. You have omitted there the very next person sitting next to you.
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, I forgot Wanga's codename.
MS PATEL: What was your own codename?
MR DINGANE: Ekapu.
MS PATEL: Okay and just finally, Sinacuo, did this person go under some other name because it's not a name that was mentioned by Mr Wanga or is this an extra person?
MR DINGANE: Wanga doesn't know him because Wanga was from the Soweto unit, he was just from the Soweto unit, he then joined our Vierplaas unit so he didn't know him. He didn't know him.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose? Mr Dingane, you are being questioned about your unit, the unit under which you conducted the operations for which you are seeking amnesty. Now we are not aware of any other unit that is involved in the acts in respect of which amnesty is being sought. Now listen to me. You are telling us about Vierplaas and we only know that there was only one unit which consisted of certain members. Now you've mentioned a few of those people. What is being put to you is that Shuga has not been mentioned by Mr Wanga in his evidence whose evidence you said you agree with insofar as it related to you and your activities so was he a member of your unit, this particular unit that we are busy with? Don't confuse the issues please.
MR DINGANE: Are you referring to Shuga?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Dingane.
MR DINGANE: Yes because he's not in prison, he was released that is why I didn't mention others because they were released from prison.
CHAIRPERSON: We don't want you to tell us about people who are in prison. The question that is put to you is who are the members of your unit, in fact Ms Patel wants the codenames of the members of your unit. You were the commander you should know, Mr Wanga was merely acting under your instructions and orders as the commander of the unit, are you telling us that you wouldn't know who your unit consisted of?
MR DINGANE: I do know the unit members that were under me.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes just tell us the names, the codenames, give the codename and give the name of the individual concerned.
MR DINGANE: Other codenames were used, there was Bukari.
MS PATEL: And what was his proper name Mr Dingane?
MR DINGANE: Vuyisile.
MS PATEL: Okay and any others?
MR DINGANE: Yes, Mapepa.
MS PATEL: Was Mapepa the codename for whom?
MR DINGANE: Vumazonke.
MS PATEL: What is Vumazonke's full names, sorry? Do you remember?
MR DINGANE: No I don't remember.
MS PATEL: Okay, anybody else?
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, I thought he said Mapepa was codenamed Vumazonke.
MS PATEL: I'm asking whether Vumazonke's full name is because it wasn't mentioned before by Mr Wanga, it's not part of the original list.
CHAIRPERSON: Which is the codename between Mapepa and Vumazonke, Mr Dingane.
MR DINGANE: Mapepa.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the codename and Vumazonke is the name?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know his surname?
MR DINGANE: Chekula.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS PATEL: Anyone else?
MR DINGANE: Nowanga.
MS PATEL: Wanga, is that the codename?
MR DINGANE: No, Wanga is my co-accused, he was called B.
MS PATEL: You certainly have taken quite a recovery to remember because just a few seconds ago you couldn't remember Wanga's codename.
MR DINGANE: Chairperson, it's my first time to be in such a place. The place that we are in it affects your mind so you cannot keep everything in your mind because the person's mind is like a computer, it keeps something and then it loses it.
MS PATEL: Okay Mr Dingane, you've now given me the same codename for two people, is that correct?
MR DINGANE: That is correct.
MS PATEL: So they both had the same codename?
MR DINGANE: Yes.
MS PATEL: Okay, are there any other codenames?
MR DINGANE: No.
MS PATEL: Is this the full list of your unit or can't you or you're not in a position to remember which is it?
MR DINGANE: It's the full list.
MS PATEL: Okay thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Before we conclude for the day Mr Dingane, to your recollection you as a commander of that unit, do you know your unit to have consisted of six members excluding yourself and to consist of seven members inclusive of yourself, would that number be correct? My calculation as you were calling out the names comes to seven in all. Does that accord with your information as the commander of that unit?
MR DINGANE: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think it has been a long day, no wonder I think Mr Dingane is able to forget and recall, we'd allow him to recharge the batteries of his computers so that tomorrow morning he comes in now fully charged and we want you to relax Mr Dingane, you really don't need to be fearful of this process. In the process of being fearful you might make mistakes which might be costly to your application, just really relax, this is nothing out of the ordinary, it is merely an enquiry to assist us to come to a fair and equitable decision insofar as your application for amnesty is concerned. This Committee will adjourn now and we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at 8.30. Thank you very much for your attendance.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just only I wanted clarity because I was told that tomorrow is another matter that's why I wanted to raise it whether we'll be able to continue with this one because I was told that there was another matter tomorrow?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbandazayo, I think the Committee is of the view that now that we have come this far with this matter we might as well complete it and not make it a semi-parted, whatever that is, you know in pushing this matter out to accommodate tomorrow's matter which was supposed to have started at 9 o'clock. I think Ms Patel will take care of that department but would really prefer to proceed to conclude the evidence of this application unless very good reasons are advanced why we should not do so.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Can we actually see the legal representatives with our evidence leader in Chambers? Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
