CHAIRPERSON: Today is October the 2nd, we are continuing with
the same set of applications. Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Cornelius will
proceed with the evidence of Mr Vermeulen.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (Duly sworn, states).
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr
Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application in
terms of Act 34/1995 and it was handed on the 13th of December
and that is the application mentioned on page 160, 166 of the
application?
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: As appears from page 169 you gave your full co-
operation to the Investigation Committee of the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission, the investigating team of the Attorney-
General's office and you also agreed to testify against your former
colleagues in the Motherwell Supreme Court trial. Is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And as a result of your evidence inter alia a
conviction followed.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you received an indemnity in terms of
Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Was an opportunity given to you to make further
representations to the honourable presiding Judge to be able to
qualify for a Section 204 indemnity?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And you haven't yet received judgment on that?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You have read or attached the documents and
records of the Supreme Court trial?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: The Chairperson pointed out that we should get
to the matter in hand very quickly. You were in the service of
Section C(1) of the South African Police special unit there?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And you served there from 1985 to 1992? Is that
correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that in December of 1989
you were summoned to the offices of Mr Eugene de Kock, who was
the commanding officer of the C Unit, correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And yourself, Lionel Snyman, Deon Nieuwoudt
and Martiens Ras were present?
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What instructions or orders did you receive
there?
MR VERMEULEN: The order which we received was to travel to
Port Elizabeth, to carry out a task.
MR CORNELIUS: What was this task?
MR VERMEULEN: The task was to in respect of members who
had defected and given information to the ANC/SACP, to eliminate
such members.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this order as a justified one?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard it as being in the national
interest?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you left there with two
Vlakplaas vehicles and you drove to Port Elizabeth. You and Lionel
Snyman in the one car and Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras as
well.
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened when you arrived in Port
Elizabeth? Did you go to a so-called safe house and you stayed
there overnight. Is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: The next morning you and Deon Nieuwoudt and
the rest of your comrades travelled to a remote area outside of Port
Elizabeth. Is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Would you be able to identify that area again?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Why not?
MR VERMEULEN: Because I am not familiar with Port Elizabeth
and it would be difficult for me to point that area out again.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and it has also appeared from evidence
before the Commission that you were in fact misled in that all kinds
of circuitous routes were taken with you to mislead you.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And that is also the reason why you gave weak
testimony in the court, you were in fact misled.
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived in the area, as appears from
previous applications, there was a white Jetta car which had been
prepared.
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What had been done to this car?
MR VERMEULEN: Explosives had been placed in the boot and
also in the passenger cabin.
MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives?
MR VERMEULEN: Use was made of commercial explosive and
also military type of explosive.
MR CORNELIUS: And the detonator mechanism, what was that?
MR VERMEULEN: The detonator was a radio-controlled
detonator.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you assist in the placing of the explosives?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Were you present, should you be needed?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Who actually placed the explosives in the car?
MR VERMEULEN: It was Mr Waal du Toit and Mr Kobus Kock.
MR CORNELIUS: After the vehicle had been prepared, what
happened then?
MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to Port Elizabeth.
MR CORNELIUS: That evening, along with Snyman and Ras you
returned to the so-called Motherwell crossing, is that correct?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: After that, where did you go?
MR VERMEULEN: From the crossing, Motherwell crossing, we
went to the place where the Vlakplaas vehicle had been secreted and
I stayed behind there.
MR CORNELIUS: Why did you stand behind?
MR VERMEULEN: I stayed behind to look after the vehicles.
MR CORNELIUS: How far was this point from the Motherwell
crossing where the bomb actually exploded?
MR VERMEULEN: About two to three kilometres.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened later?
MR VERMEULEN: I waited at the vehicles and about 45 minutes
later Mr Ras and Mr Snyman arrived there, and told me that the
operation had been successful. We then got back into our vehicles
and drove to Pretoria.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the sound of an explosion or see a
flash?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Why not?
MR VERMEULEN: Was too far away from that area.
MR CORNELIUS: When you returned to Pretoria, did you report to
Mr De Kock, Lieut De Kock?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened, Mr Vermeulen if
you had not carried out Eugene de Kock's orders?
MR VERMEULEN: If I hadn't carried out the orders, there is a
good chance that I would have lost my job and that perhaps I could
have been eliminated.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you fear that?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: As the honourable Judge said you found yourself
in a Catch 22 situation?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Your loyalty would have been seriously
questioned if you didn't carry out the orders?
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And since you possessed extremely sensitive
information you would have posed a serious threat?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: You had been involved in many operations
before the Motherwell operation of '89?
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you also operate on the need to know
strategy?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: You were not aware of the fact that there was a
ZN detonator, Soviet-origin detonator left on the scene?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: And at that stage you were not aware of the fact
that you were deliberately misled by other colleagues, so that you
couldn't make this identification?
MR VERMEULEN: Correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, did you believe that you were
acting in the national interest?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: These acts which you committed, they are
obviously illegal acts, what was your political objective?
MR VERMEULEN: My political objective was that the members
who had given information to the ANC/SACP, they at that stage,
they were my enemy.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard these members as supporters of
the ANC?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Or associates of the ANC?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times act within the normal course
and scope of your duties?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that your execution of your duties
had the approval of your superiors?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that any order which you carried
out, was in direct compliance with the authority structure in the
security police?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you act in a bona fide manner?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times believe that your conduct
was promoting the objectives of your employer?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And that it enjoyed the approval of your
employer?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Even though these actions were illegal?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you benefit personally from this Motherwell
incident?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you know the victims?
MR VERMEULEN: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you entertain any personal malice against
these victims?
MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: You are applying for amnesty, on page 179 of
the application for all common law crimes and offences which may
arise from the Motherwell incident, as well as conspiracy to commit
murder and being an accomplice to murder and any other civil
damages which may arise from this.
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr
Chairperson, Hugo on behalf of Mr De Kock. Mr Vermeulen, can
you recall whether Mr Nieuwoudt was present at Vlakplaas when Mr
De Kock gave you the order?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR HUGO: Can you tell us what the precise purport was of the
motive explained to you by Mr De Kock, the motive for the
operation?
MR VERMEULEN: That there were members in the PE security
branch who had been causing problems and that an operation had to
be carried out in Port Elizabeth.
MR HUGO: Did Mr De Kock at any stage indicate an Askari or
Askaris?
MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall there were three people
and an askari.
MR HUGO: Yes, but the question is; did Mr De Kock use the word
Askari or Askaris when he told you about the problems these people
were causing?
MR VERMEULEN: I can't answer that because I can't remember it
well. As far as I can recall, I am sure that the word Askari was
used.
MR HUGO: And are you saying that Mr De Kock told you that
these people were in the process of going over to the ANC or had
already done so?
MR VERMEULEN: Yes.
MR HUGO: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
MR BOOYSENS: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Snyman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?
MR KEMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP
MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, maybe I should just
come on record to say on behalf of applicant Ras there is also no
questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I apologise, I overlooked you, I'm
sorry. Yes, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD: Thank you, Mr
Chairman, for and on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku. Mr
Vermeulen, do I understand your evidence to be that your colleagues
during the preparation stages in Port Elizabeth, deliberately
confused you or misled you with regard to the identities of those
participating, was that the effect of your evidence?
MR VERMEULEN: No, the evidence is that they misled us by not
finding the proper venue where the car was prepared.
MR FORD: I see. So you were aware at all times of all of those
involved in the preparation of the bomb in the motor vehicle, by
whom the motor vehicle was brought, et cetera?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR FORD: Was Mr Lotz at any stage present?
MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I have never seen him at the
scene.
MR FORD: Now you have suggested in your evidence that if you
did not carry out this order, there was a real chance of you losing
your work and also that you could be eliminated?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR FORD: What brought you to that conclusion, Mr Vermeulen?
MR VERMEULEN: At that stage I was involved in lots of
operations before that, and I know about a lot of sensitive
information.
MR FORD: Now you heard Mr De Kock's evidence of the
relationship which he had with his men and which he stated quite
clearly that what his attitude would have been if one of his men had
felt unable to participate in a certain operation?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.
MR FORD: If I understood his evidence it was that it may have led
to - certainly not a question of elimination of that person, he may
have been less readily promoted, but there is no question of him
being eliminated, just because he didn't feel capable of participating
in a special operation?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, it is not necessarily that
elimination would have come from Mr De Kock. The senior people
higher above could have decided something like that.
MR FORD: Did you ever have any reason to suspect that if you had
declined to participate in this operation, Mr De Kock wouldn't just
have appointed somebody else in your place?
MR VERMEULEN: He could have, Mr Chairman.
MR FORD: Were you - happy is not the appropriate word, but you
were ready to participate at all times? Did you have any hesitation
about this operation?
MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't have any hesitations.
MR FORD: Why not?
MR VERMEULEN: Because when I received orders from my
seniors, I always tried to comply, Mr Chairman.
MR FORD: The point I am trying to make, Mr Vermeulen, is that
you obeyed this order, not because you were afraid of being
eliminated, but because that was the way you operated.
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.
MR FORD: And I am putting it to you then, Mr Vermeulen, that
your suggestion that there was a real possibility of you being
eliminated in these circumstances, is just not correct.
MR VERMEULEN: No, I won't say that.
MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr
Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?
MR BRINK: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Only one question,
thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you obeyed the order
because you simply had no choice?
MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR CORNELIUS: And depending on the breach of your security
measures, that will depend what type of action will be taken against
you?
MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may step down, Mr Vermeulen.
MR VERMEULEN: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR CORNELIUS 420 N J VERMEULEN
PORT ELIZABETH HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE
MR HUGO 430 N J VERMEULEN
MR FORD 433 N J VERMEULEN
MR CORNELIUS 434 N J VERMEULEN
