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Amnesty HearingsType AMNESTY HEARINGS Starting Date 02 October 1997 Location PORT ELIZABETH Day 3 Names NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN Case Number 4358/96 Back To Top Click on the links below to view results for: +vermeulen +h Line 4Line 6Line 8Line 12Line 18Line 21Line 24Line 28Line 30Line 33Line 37Line 40Line 44Line 47Line 50Line 53Line 57Line 60Line 65Line 69Line 73Line 75Line 77Line 82Line 85Line 89Line 91Line 94Line 97Line 100Line 102Line 104Line 107Line 110Line 112Line 116Line 119Line 121Line 127Line 129Line 132Line 133Line 135Line 139Line 142Line 145Line 148Line 151Line 154Line 157Line 161Line 162Line 164Line 167Line 172Line 174Line 177Line 180Line 184Line 186Line 189Line 192Line 194Line 197Line 199Line 202Line 208Line 213Line 216Line 220Line 225Line 230Line 236Line 254Line 258Line 263Line 265Line 270Line 271Line 272Line 279Line 285Line 291Line 295Line 297Line 299Line 302Line 303Line 306Line 315Line 317Line 321Line 324Line 325Line 327Line 329Line 330Line 331 CHAIRPERSON: Today is October the 2nd, we are continuing with the same set of applications. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Cornelius will proceed with the evidence of Mr Vermeulen. MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (Duly sworn, states). EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application in terms of Act 34/1995 and it was handed on the 13th of December and that is the application mentioned on page 160, 166 of the MR CORNELIUS: As appears from page 169 you gave your full co- operation to the Investigation Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the investigating team of the Attorney- General's office and you also agreed to testify against your former colleagues in the Motherwell Supreme Court trial. Is that correct? MR CORNELIUS: And as a result of your evidence inter alia a MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: Did you received an indemnity in terms of Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act? MR CORNELIUS: Was an opportunity given to you to make further representations to the honourable presiding Judge to be able to qualify for a Section 204 indemnity? MR CORNELIUS: And you haven't yet received judgment on that? MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: You have read or attached the documents and records of the Supreme Court trial? MR CORNELIUS: The Chairperson pointed out that we should get to the matter in hand very quickly. You were in the service of Section C(1) of the South African Police special unit there? MR CORNELIUS: And you served there from 1985 to 1992? Is that MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that in December of 1989 you were summoned to the offices of Mr Eugene de Kock, who was the commanding officer of the C Unit, correct? MR CORNELIUS: And yourself, Lionel Snyman, Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras were present? MR CORNELIUS: What instructions or orders did you receive MR VERMEULEN: The order which we received was to travel to Port Elizabeth, to carry out a task. MR CORNELIUS: What was this task? MR VERMEULEN: The task was to in respect of members who had defected and given information to the ANC/SACP, to eliminate MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this order as a justified one? MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard it as being in the national MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you left there with two Vlakplaas vehicles and you drove to Port Elizabeth. You and Lionel Snyman in the one car and Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras as MR CORNELIUS: What happened when you arrived in Port Elizabeth? Did you go to a so-called safe house and you stayed there overnight. Is that correct? MR CORNELIUS: The next morning you and Deon Nieuwoudt and the rest of your comrades travelled to a remote area outside of Port MR CORNELIUS: Would you be able to identify that area again? MR VERMEULEN: Because I am not familiar with Port Elizabeth and it would be difficult for me to point that area out again. MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and it has also appeared from evidence before the Commission that you were in fact misled in that all kinds of circuitous routes were taken with you to mislead you. MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: And that is also the reason why you gave weak testimony in the court, you were in fact misled. MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived in the area, as appears from previous applications, there was a white Jetta car which had been MR CORNELIUS: What had been done to this car? MR VERMEULEN: Explosives had been placed in the boot and MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives? MR VERMEULEN: Use was made of commercial explosive and also military type of explosive. MR CORNELIUS: And the detonator mechanism, what was that? MR VERMEULEN: The detonator was a radio-controlled MR CORNELIUS: Did you assist in the placing of the explosives? MR CORNELIUS: Were you present, should you be needed? MR CORNELIUS: Who actually placed the explosives in the car? MR VERMEULEN: It was Mr Waal du Toit and Mr Kobus Kock. MR CORNELIUS: After the vehicle had been prepared, what MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to Port Elizabeth. MR CORNELIUS: That evening, along with Snyman and Ras you returned to the so-called Motherwell crossing, is that correct? MR CORNELIUS: After that, where did you go? MR VERMEULEN: From the crossing, Motherwell crossing, we went to the place where the Vlakplaas vehicle had been secreted and MR CORNELIUS: Why did you stand behind? MR VERMEULEN: I stayed behind to look after the vehicles. MR CORNELIUS: How far was this point from the Motherwell crossing where the bomb actually exploded? MR VERMEULEN: About two to three kilometres. MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened later? MR VERMEULEN: I waited at the vehicles and about 45 minutes later Mr Ras and Mr Snyman arrived there, and told me that the operation had been successful. We then got back into our vehicles MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the sound of an explosion or see a MR VERMEULEN: Was too far away from that area. MR CORNELIUS: When you returned to Pretoria, did you report to MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened, Mr Vermeulen if you had not carried out Eugene de Kock's orders? MR VERMEULEN: If I hadn't carried out the orders, there is a good chance that I would have lost my job and that perhaps I could MR CORNELIUS: Did you fear that? MR CORNELIUS: As the honourable Judge said you found yourself MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: Your loyalty would have been seriously questioned if you didn't carry out the orders? MR CORNELIUS: And since you possessed extremely sensitive information you would have posed a serious threat? MR CORNELIUS: You had been involved in many operations before the Motherwell operation of '89? MR CORNELIUS: Did you also operate on the need to know MR CORNELIUS: You were not aware of the fact that there was a ZN detonator, Soviet-origin detonator left on the scene? MR CORNELIUS: And at that stage you were not aware of the fact that you were deliberately misled by other colleagues, so that you couldn't make this identification? MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, did you believe that you were acting in the national interest? MR CORNELIUS: These acts which you committed, they are obviously illegal acts, what was your political objective? MR VERMEULEN: My political objective was that the members who had given information to the ANC/SACP, they at that stage, MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard these members as supporters of MR CORNELIUS: Or associates of the ANC? MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times act within the normal course MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that your execution of your duties had the approval of your superiors? MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that any order which you carried out, was in direct compliance with the authority structure in the MR CORNELIUS: Did you act in a bona fide manner? MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times believe that your conduct was promoting the objectives of your employer? MR CORNELIUS: And that it enjoyed the approval of your MR CORNELIUS: Even though these actions were illegal? MR CORNELIUS: Did you benefit personally from this Motherwell MR CORNELIUS: Did you know the victims? MR CORNELIUS: Did you entertain any personal malice against MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS: You are applying for amnesty, on page 179 of the application for all common law crimes and offences which may arise from the Motherwell incident, as well as conspiracy to commit murder and being an accomplice to murder and any other civil damages which may arise from this. MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Hugo on behalf of Mr De Kock. Mr Vermeulen, can you recall whether Mr Nieuwoudt was present at Vlakplaas when Mr MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HUGO: Can you tell us what the precise purport was of the motive explained to you by Mr De Kock, the motive for the MR VERMEULEN: That there were members in the PE security branch who had been causing problems and that an operation had to be carried out in Port Elizabeth. MR HUGO: Did Mr De Kock at any stage indicate an Askari or MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall there were three people MR HUGO: Yes, but the question is; did Mr De Kock use the word Askari or Askaris when he told you about the problems these people MR VERMEULEN: I can't answer that because I can't remember it well. As far as I can recall, I am sure that the word Askari was MR HUGO: And are you saying that Mr De Kock told you that these people were in the process of going over to the ANC or had MR HUGO: I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR BOOYSENS: No questions, Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Snyman. MR KEMP: No questions, Mr Chairman. MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, maybe I should just come on record to say on behalf of applicant Ras there is also no NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I apologise, I overlooked you, I'm CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for and on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku. Mr Vermeulen, do I understand your evidence to be that your colleagues during the preparation stages in Port Elizabeth, deliberately confused you or misled you with regard to the identities of those participating, was that the effect of your evidence? MR VERMEULEN: No, the evidence is that they misled us by not finding the proper venue where the car was prepared. MR FORD: I see. So you were aware at all times of all of those involved in the preparation of the bomb in the motor vehicle, by whom the motor vehicle was brought, et cetera? MR FORD: Was Mr Lotz at any stage present? MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I have never seen him at the MR FORD: Now you have suggested in your evidence that if you did not carry out this order, there was a real chance of you losing your work and also that you could be eliminated? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR FORD: What brought you to that conclusion, Mr Vermeulen? MR VERMEULEN: At that stage I was involved in lots of operations before that, and I know about a lot of sensitive MR FORD: Now you heard Mr De Kock's evidence of the relationship which he had with his men and which he stated quite clearly that what his attitude would have been if one of his men had felt unable to participate in a certain operation? MR FORD: If I understood his evidence it was that it may have led to - certainly not a question of elimination of that person, he may have been less readily promoted, but there is no question of him being eliminated, just because he didn't feel capable of participating MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, it is not necessarily that elimination would have come from Mr De Kock. The senior people higher above could have decided something like that. MR FORD: Did you ever have any reason to suspect that if you had declined to participate in this operation, Mr De Kock wouldn't just have appointed somebody else in your place? MR VERMEULEN: He could have, Mr Chairman. MR FORD: Were you - happy is not the appropriate word, but you were ready to participate at all times? Did you have any hesitation MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't have any hesitations. MR VERMEULEN: Because when I received orders from my seniors, I always tried to comply, Mr Chairman. MR FORD: The point I am trying to make, Mr Vermeulen, is that you obeyed this order, not because you were afraid of being eliminated, but because that was the way you operated. MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR FORD: And I am putting it to you then, Mr Vermeulen, that your suggestion that there was a real possibility of you being eliminated in these circumstances, is just not correct. MR VERMEULEN: No, I won't say that. MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD MR BRINK: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Only one question, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you obeyed the order because you simply had no choice? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS: And depending on the breach of your security measures, that will depend what type of action will be taken against MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may step down, Mr Vermeulen. MR CORNELIUS 420 N J VERMEULEN |
