KIMPANA PIETER MOGOAI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the applicant's supplemented application ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Place yourself and the applicant on record.
MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Lamey on behalf of the applicant Kimpana Pieter Mogoai whose supplemented application is in Volume 2 page 198 up to and including page 209. May I proceed Mr Chairman?
Mr Mogoai, you are an applicant for amnesty regarding your participation in the Cosatu House bomb explosion which occurred in May 1987, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Could you please have a look at page 198 up to including 209 of Volume 2 of the bundle. Is that your supplemented application which you signed before a Commissioner of Oaths on - during July 1997 and this particular - and that this portion in the bundle is actually the relevant portions relating to the Cosatu House incident, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Mr Mogoai, is it correct that you were a member -you became a member of the Security Branch specifically stationed at Vlakplaas since approximately 1980?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Prior to your joining the Security Branch you were a member of the military wing of the African National Congress, uMkhonto weSizwe and that you were stationed at the regional headquarters of the ANC in Botswana. Specifically you were an infiltration officer tasked with the establishment of infiltration routes of MK members from Botswana to the Republic of South Africa, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Eventually you became a full member of the security police and you obtained a force number 170488K as stated in paragraph 8(b) on page 199, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Could you please page to page 203 being the annexure to your supplemented amnesty application you set out the background as to how you became a member of the security police, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: And you confirm the contents of that?
MR MOGOAI: I do.
MR LAMEY: That is on page 203 of the bundle, Mr Chairman, the background up to page 205.
Mr Mogoai, you were one of the first Askaris of Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You also state in paragraph 2.7 of annexure A on page 206 of the bundle sorry, 204 of the bundle that one of the reasons that made you to decide to join the ranks of the Security Police that you became disillusioned with the ANC in that respect that more prominent leaders in the ANC also were members of the South African Communist Party and that they played a prominent role in uMkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, that is paragraph 2.7 on page 204 of the bundle.
You also say that because of that your decision to join the Security Police was also partly motivated because the ANC regarded you as a traitor and that an instruction was issued to eliminate you, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Paragraph 2.8. Now, with regard to the Cosatu House incident you applied for amnesty for malicious damage to property and any other offence which can be deduced from the facts regarding this incident, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt at this stage and address a general remark. What has just been said by this applicant has been said I think by most of the other applicants. Let me however warn their legal advisors that we will require them when they come to the stage of addresses to notify us in detail what they want amnesty for, not any other matters arising or matters of that nature. We would want them to specify in exact terms as they can. So if you could all just bear that in mind in case I forget to say it again later.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Now regarding the specific event, Mr Mogoai, you state that on the particular evening before the - before you departed for Johannesburg, you were called together, among other members, as you state here in paragraph 1 on page 206, by Colonel de Kock. Is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: One of the members that you mentioned here is Mr Brood Andries van Heerden. Is it correct that you have subsequently, subsequent to making your statement here that you realised that that is an error, the reference to him. Is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that you recall that Mr Willie Nortjč was involved in the operation but you're not certain whether he was as such present at that meeting?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Now you further state that at that meeting, is it correct that according to your recollection it was the early evening of the same night when the operation got carried out that this meeting, that you were called together by Colonel de Kock or that you received the first knowledge about what was going to take place, if I can put it that way?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: And that you were in fact informed that an explosion is going to take place at Cosatu House?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: After that you mentioned in your statement, when you made your statement that you went to a certain place at Midrand where you all met again with members of the Security Branch at John Vorster Square but you have drawn my attention also that your reference here to Midrand is not correct and you accept that this was Honeydew?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: At this place further instructions were carried out and you and Chris Magopa were tasked - you received six packs of Black Label beer - and you were specifically tasked should you encounter guards at Cosatu House to give these beers to them and as far as you know those beers, as you put it, were doctored in the sense that it would make them dizzy or activate intoxication?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: After this ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, wait a moment. Have we received certain supplementary pages?
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I'm referring to paragraph 2 on page 207.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I have no page 207 - my copy goes to 206, 209. ...[inaudible] I have got 7 and the next page is 10, I am not ...[inaudible] 8 or 9.
MR LAMEY: I apologise Mr Chairman, I wasn't aware of that.
CHAIRPERSON: None of the other Committee Members have them either. Well we take a very short adjournment and hurriedly have these pages copied? I think the persons who haven't got an interest aren't here today.
MR LAMEY: Perhaps it would be a suitable adjournment just ..[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: A very short adjournment to merely photocopy the pages 207 and 208. We have got 209 so it's only the two pages that have to be copied. We'll adjourn for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
KIMPANA PIETER MOGOAI: (s.u.o.)
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey I heard you saying they received six packs, I thought that's a bit much?
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: (Continues) Mr Chairman, yes let me just clarify that, they each received a six pack of Black Label beers. May I proceed further Mr Chairman?
Now your specific task with Chris Magopa as stated here on page 207 was to give this to the guards should you encounter any guards at the premises, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Now on your arrival at Cosatu House you found that the front door was open but you did not see any guards, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You were aware that other members who were tasked were there were busy with their tasks and you also know that explosives were placed somewhere in the building, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: And after you and Chris Magopa could not see any of the guards, you went back to your vehicle, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: And you further state that the operation was quickly completed and that you thereafter went back to Vlakplaas?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: And that you subsequently heard from the commander, Colonel de Kock, that the operation was carried out successfully?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You also - was aware of a news report the following day that there was an explosion and that you also have knowledge of the fact that the building was damaged.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Now on page 208 you state with regards to your political objective that you also knew that COSATU was a movement which was active of the labour front which organised strikes and that they worked hand in hand with the ANC and that you also knew that they supported the Freedom Charter, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You yourself thought that the task was perhaps futile because that they merely could use another building afterwards, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: But you had to follow an instruction in this regard, which you received from the officer commanding in regard to your participation?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You also state further in paragraph 11 that you recall also that De Kock mentioned that a General gave approval for this operation?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You also say that as a Vlakplaas Askari member you were not in a position to verify, to question the instruction in this instance?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You also had to rely on the - De Kock's motivation as to why the explosion at Cosatu House had to take place?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You also recall that De Kock said that if they can plant bombs we can do it also?
MR MOGOAI: That is so, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, we start with you again.
MR VISSER: No questions from me, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR BOOYENS: Booyens. No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Hugo, just a couple of questions, Mr Chairman.
Mr Mogoai, if we just could go back to page 206 of your amnesty application, let me just put it to you that I act here on behalf of Mr de Kock, Captain Letsatsi, Simon Radebe and then Pegi Radebe or more correctly put, his correct name is Jacob Radebe and then Chris Magopa.
Now first of all in respect of Mr de Kock he says that he has no recollection whatsoever on the meeting that was attended by all these names mentioned here at Vlakplaas. What is your comment as far as that is concerned?
MR MOGOAI: My comment on that issue is that as far as I remember we were called in to prepare ourselves.
MR HUGO: Well, let me just put it to you further that Mr Simon Radebe on behalf I'm also acting says that he was called in and he was then given an instruction on a one on one basis by Mr de Kock and he most probably called you in to give you the instruction as to what your participation would be during this operation. What would you say to that?
MR MOGOAI: My former participation in the whole operation, I was briefed by Colonel de Kock.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what is being put to you as I understand it is that you were probably briefed only yourself and Colonel de Kock being present?
MR MOGOAI: We were all present with the Stratcom members when Colonel de Kock gave us the instruction, especially me and Chris Magopa.
MR HUGO: Good, I'm not going to take this any further, safe to say that both Mr Simon Radebe and Jacob Radebe and Mr Magopa and for that matter also Captain Letsatsi would say that they never attended this meeting, that they were given these instructions by Mr de Kock on different occasions. Can you recall that?
MR MOGOAI: If that happened, it might have happened at some stage without my knowledge but what I recall is that we were all present.
MR HUGO: And then Mr Mogoai, will you just turn over to page 207, paragraph 4 thereof. There you say
"After Chris and I couldn't find the guards we went back to our vehicle."
Now Mr Chris Magopa's version is that they, he did in fact come across a guard but he wasn't interested in making conversation with him or taking some of the beer that was offered to him. Can you recall that?
MR MOGOAI: We confronted nobody, the door was sort of a double door, the other part was open, the other one was closed and there were two chairs on the stairs but there was nobody and then we moved on.
MR HUGO: Good and then just on page 208 paragraph 10 (c) can you just tell us again, where did you, from whom did you receive the amount of R200.
MR MOGOAI: From Simon Radebe.
MR HUGO: Now let me just put it to you that Mr Radebe said he has no recollection of this whatsoever and he doesn't know where the money came from and he can't remember as to whether he had in fact given you the money. Are you sure about this that you received it from him?
MR MOGOAI: He gave me an envelope. In the envelope I found R200.
MR HUGO: And did he say what the reason was and from whom it came?
MR MOGOAI: He said from Colonel de Kock and I didn't ask why.
MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
ADV GCABASHE: Could I just ask, Mr Mogoai, could you possibly be mixing this particular incident up with another one which is why your facts might not be the same as your colleagues, is that possible?
MR MOGOAI: No, there isn't any other time that I was given any money or an envelope which contained money.
ADV GCABASHE: And the same relates to the meeting where all those members were present, the questions Mr Hugo was asking you, where the group met and were given instructions. Again you couldn't be mixing that aspect up with something else?
MR MOGOAI: I wouldn't say, I mean this was a totally different operation. I wouldn't say that I mixed them up.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mogoai, this meeting was it on the evening, the same evening as the explosion took place?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, Mr Chairman.
ADV DE JAGER: So you gathered all together before leaving to Honeydew and were you told at the stage when you gathered before leaving?
MR MOGOAI: Yes we gathered before we left.
ADV DE JAGER: And then you received the instruction, you can't remember any previous instruction prior to that meeting?
MR MOGOAI: No, no, no, Mr Chairman.
ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: And you wouldn't be mixing up a meeting at Honeydew with this meeting at Vlakplaas? You wouldn't be switching incidents either?
MR MOGOAI: No, in Honeydew actually what happened, it was not a meeting as such, it was a reassurance of what happened, of the previous briefing at Vlakplaas so it was a reassurance.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, may I just ask just one follow up question in re-examination if there are no further questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: I do have questions.
MR LAMEY: Sorry.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Mogoai, if you have a look at page 204 of your application. 204 attached to the original numbering and more specifically to 2.7. You see 2.7?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, sir.
ADV MPSHE: Will I be correct, Mr Mogoai, to state that you'd do anything for the Security Force so as to keep yourself and your family alive?
MR MOGOAI: Quite correct, sir.
ADV MPSHE: So whatever your involvement in this operation you were looking forward to receiving something, some money for your family and yourself?
MR MOGOAI: I wouldn't put it that way. I would say I was doing it so as to go on surviving as I ...[indistinct] in the past.
ADV MPSHE: So you expected some gain to the benefit of your family and yourself?
CHAIRPERSON: Well were you paid a salary for what you were doing? Was it your job?
MR MOGOAI: I was getting my salary every month.
ADV GCABASHE: But just to clarify this, you joined the Security Branch to survive to earn a living. You didn't go on this specific mission so as to get something out of it personally in terms of money? I making that distinction between taking the job and this specific mission, am I right?
Or have I confused you?
MR MOGOAI: There are many operations in which I was involved in, in which I did not get money for.
ADV DE JAGER: But even you didn't know that you would receive R200 before you went on the mission?
MR MOGOAI: I did not know that I was going to get it.
ADV DE JAGER: So that was not the reason why you went on the mission, the fact that you'd received the R200, you went because of an order given?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand you, you had never received money before as a reward?
MR MOGOAI: Before?
CHAIRPERSON: You had never received money for a mission before?
MR MOGOAI: Yes.
ADV MPSHE: The question was asked you did not know that you would receive money, did you expect to receive money?
MR MOGOAI: No.
ADV MPSHE: Now you made mention of communism here on page, from 2.7, did you have any problem with communism yourself?
MR MOGOAI: Myself?
ADV MPSHE: Yes.
MR MOGOAI: Yes, sir.
ADV MPSHE: Why?
MR MOGOAI: Sorry?
ADV MPSHE: Why, what was wrong with it?
MR MOGOAI: No, I don't believe in communism.
ADV MPSHE: Because other people don't believe in communism?
MR MOGOAI: I don't believe in communism.
ADV MPSHE: Why?
MR MOGOAI: Because it is anti-Christ, or anti, it doesn't believe in religion.
ADV MPSHE: Good. Turn now to page 3 page 2.5. I'm sorry, paginated 2.5 Mr Chairman. Paragraph 2.8. It reads
"My decision to join the Security Police was partially motivated for the reason that the ANC regarded me as a traitor and an instruction was issued to kill me."
Would I be correct to say that your joining the security force was more of seeking for an asylum than commitment to the Security Force operations?
MR MOGOAI: I wouldn't - partly I would agree with you but not wholly. In my situation and in the situation in the country itself, I mean if I did not join the Security Forces obviously I was going to be an easy target.
ADV MPSHE: So it was, the Security Force was an asylum for you, a safe place for you, let's put it that way?
MR MOGOAI: It was a secure place for me.
ADV MPSHE: Ja. Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, just one or two questions in re-examination.
Mr Mogoai, we have not in your verbal evidence dealt, for sake of brevity, with the total, repeated the total background, but you can confirm the total perspective as it is stated in paragraph 2 of page 203 and 205 is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And your whole decision to join the Security Police if we can put it was put together by several factors but the first thing that made you also, one of the important aspects why you decided to come back to South Africa was you wanted to get back to your family but also that you became disillusioned so it must all be seen together, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that prior to your - before you came back via a previous of employer of you, you made contact with the Security Police in order to inform them that you're coming back to South Africa so that they know that you are here in the Republic for bona fide reasons and not further to participate in the aims or the acts of the ANC, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And just to confirm this, this was the first operation that you received afterwards some additional remuneration apart from your general salary that you received, is that correct?
MR MOGOAI: Which operation?
MR LAMEY: The Cosatu House one.
MR MOGOAI: That is correct, sir.
MR LAMEY: And prior to that you were not promised that you would receive some additional benefit or so you did not expect it at all?
MR MOGOAI: No sir.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RADITAPOLE: Just a few, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Mogoai, if I understand you correctly, will I be correct to say your political objective was almost the same as some of the applicants here to try and stop a takeover by a communistic or marxist orientated government?
MR MOGOAI: Partly so, partly so, sir.
MR RADITAPOLE: And partly - and the other part, what would be the other part?
MR MOGOAI: The other part is that I was also actually following orders and I had at that stage already regarded myself as an enemy of the ANC and it's alliances that is called COSATU.
MR RADITAPOLE: Right, your opinion or your perception of regarding yourself as an enemy started after they suspected you of having been a traitor, am I correct?
MR MOGOAI: It developed from there, sir.
MR RADITAPOLE: As a former member of the ANC you might have read the Freedom Charter am I correct?
MR MOGOAI: Yes, sir.
MR RADITAPOLE: And at one stage the Freedom Charter was regarded as a communistic document, some people were charged for that, are you aware of that?
MR MOGOAI: I am.
MR RADITAPOLE: What would you say if I say to you most of the process of the Freedom Charter are found in the Bill of Rights which is part of the new constitution of South Africa, social rights etc., etc? Would you still maintain it was a communistic document?
MR MOGOAI: I agree. I agree, sir.
MR RADITAPOLE: Let me come to the ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant, politics of the country isn't it which ...[indistinct] at the time?
MR RADITAPOLE: Let me come to the, to your coming back home. Just one or two questions in so far as that is concerned. You arranged for a meeting in Botswana between you and the security forces. You came back home, you stayed for six months
at Sebokeng. Thereafter you joined the Security Forces. It would create an impression that you had contact with the Security Forces or to put it otherwise, it would appear that the suspicion was justified to say that maybe you were a double agent. What would you say about that?
MR MOGOAI: At that time, I mean, anybody could have had that perception but during that particular time I was always having regular contact and communication with the Security Forces.
MR RADITAPOLE: During the time you were at the infiltration of the ANC in Botswana?
MR MOGOAI: No. When I was in Sebokeng. When I was in Botswana I had no contact with them altogether.
MR RADITAPOLE: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RADITAPOLE
MR MOGOAI: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
