CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?
MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant is Mr D. Gouws.
ADV DE JAGER: Your full names?
MR GOUWS: Deon Gouws.
DEON GOUWS: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman you will find the application of Mr Gouws, on page 52 and further in Bundle 7.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please proceed.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you. Mr Gouws, as Mr Oosthuizen, you have been referred to the evidence which I referred to initially.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Rossouw, you can simply ask him whether or not he confirms this, you don't have to go through everything, we are interested in his share and his role. He has heard the background evidence, if he agrees with it, let him confirm it, and let us get to the events as quickly as possible.
MR ROSSOUW: As the Chair pleases. Mr Chairman, that was my intention.
Mr Gouws, you have listened to the evidence which was presented in previous matters to Mr Oosthuizen, you have been informed thereof and you know thereof, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: You also request that this be read with your amnesty application?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: You are also applying for amnesty for murder and your involvement in the murder of Piet Ntuli?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And any other offences arising from your involvement there?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: You have a copy of your application before you?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Do you confirm your application, is it correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Then I ask you to proceed to page 57. Do you confirm the background with regard to your involvement in the South African Police and your career there?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: To begin with, with this operation on Piet Ntuli, were you a member of the Investigative Unit in KwaNdebele about which Mr Oosthuizen has given evidence?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And you also had intimate knowledge of the political unrest and the events in KwaNdebele at that stage?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you then explain to the Committee how you became involved with the incident?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, on a specific day Brigadier Cronje, Captain Hechter came to our camp in Siyabuswa at the Waterworks. From there, we went to an open field opposite the government offices in Siyabuswa where we had a braai.
ADV DE JAGER: Were you previously informed that there would be an operation and that you would accompany them?
MR GOUWS: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: By who were you informed?
MR GOUWS: By Captain Hechter.
ADV DE JAGER: How long before the time?
MR GOUWS: On that very same day.
ADV DE JAGER: That same day? So he arrived at the camp and you went with him to this open field?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: And you knew that there would be an attempt on Ntuli's life?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: Now tell us what happened.
MR GOUWS: From there, I can't remember at which stage Mr Kendall joined us, but we went in a vehicle to the fence around the government offices as well as the residences in which the Ministers resided.
We went in one vehicle, that would be Brigadier Cronje, Captain Hechter, Captain Kendall as well as myself. We parked next to the vehicle of Mr Ntuli.
MR ROSSOUW: What role did you play at that stage, what would you have done there, what was your function?
MR GOUWS: I was only there for security.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you explain to the Committee where you would have performed your security role?
MR GOUWS: Outside the vehicle where the bomb was supposed to be placed below the vehicle.
Brigadier Cronje and Kendall went into the residence of the Minister, upon which Hechter and I remained behind. Hechter took a device out of something that looked like a cake tin, and placed it below the vehicle.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you indicate to the Committee on which place below the vehicle, on the position on the vehicle?
MR GOUWS: It was under the driver's seat of the vehicle.
There were guards in the vicinity but they weren't bothered by us. After a while Brigadier and Kendall came out and we left. If I remember correctly, I climbed into the kombi and I received an apparatus and after the Minister's vehicle drove passed us, approximately ten seconds thereafter, I pressed the switch - or as the vehicle went passed, I pressed the switch and ten seconds later, I heard the explosion.
MR ROSSOUW: Just on that point, did you and Mr Oosthuizen have any discussion or planning about when the bomb was to be activated and where it was supposed to explode?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct. We knew the environment quite well at that stage, we had spent two months there, it was just after the Siyabuswa Police station, there was an S-turn. As Mr Oosthuizen has testified, it was - there was a speed limit of 30 - 40 kilometres per hour, and it was on that S-turn that the bomb was to explode. That is how we did it.
CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you this device?
MR GOUWS: Captain Hechter, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you explain what happened further after the bomb was activated?
MR GOUWS: I am not entirely certain, but I think we went back to the camp where we were living, at Waterworks. That is the end of the story.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you ever visit the scene?
MR GOUWS: I cannot recall whether I visit the scene directly afterwards, but at a later stage, I was there.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Gouws, where in the car did you sit when you went in?
MR GOUWS: Behind.
ADV DE JAGER: Were you sitting in the car or were you laying in the car?
MR GOUWS: I can't recall exactly what my position was, whether I sat or lay.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Gouws, may I refer you to page 59, the annexure to your amnesty application, paragraph 1, the second last sentence. There you say that Mr Kendall arrived at your camp, are you referring there to the Waterworks camp or the place where you were braaiing in the open field?
MR GOUWS: That would be in the open field where we were having a braai.
MR ROSSOUW: That is a faulty reference then?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Regarding your knowledge of the situation and the faction fighting that was taking place in KwaNdebele, as set out in paragraph 2, you confirm this?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: In paragraph 3, the third and the fourth sentences, there is a bit of a leap. You refer to Brigadier Van Wyk, your direct Commander at camp, at Waterworks, who remained behind?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And then you say that you went with Cronje, Hechter and Oosthuizen when you departed. It would appear that you departed with Kendall from there to the Minister's house?
MR GOUWS: No, at that stage Kendall wasn't present.
MR ROSSOUW: So what you mean is that you left from the open field, to the Minister's house?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: Your Commander, Van Wyk, was there and you left with Cronje from there, from the camp?
MR GOUWS: From where we lived? Yes, that is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: So he was aware that you were going with Cronje?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: You heard that Mr Oosthuizen gave evidence that earlier that day, at the Waterworks camp, a discussion had taken place between Brigadier Cronje and Brigadier Van Wyk, do you know about that, were you present?
MR GOUWS: I was present, but what the extent thereof was, is not known to me.
MR ROSSOUW: You have also heard that there was evidence that you and Mr Oosthuizen argued about who ...
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Rossouw, really, I don't think it is necessary for you to discuss that. Whether or not they had an argument, both of them were involved, and it would appear that both of them set the apparatus off, and I don't think this is being disputed by anybody, so I don't know whether it is necessary for us to hear the details about it.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Gouws, on page 62 of your application, you give your political objective as well as your personal conviction as to why this is related to a political action. Did you have any knowledge that this operation had been approved at a very high level?
MR GOUWS: I did not know.
MR ROSSOUW: And your involvement in this flowed from an order which you received from Captain Hechter and at the time of the order, you were under the command of Brigadier Cronje?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: What was your rank at that stage?
MR GOUWS: I was a Sergeant.
MR ROSSOUW: So is it correct for me to say that you were the most junior officer during this operation?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Were you in any position to question the order of Captain Hechter as well as the command of Brigadier Cronje at that stage?
MR GOUWS: No.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you execute their orders, and why did you execute their orders because you were not a member of the Security Police?
MR GOUWS: Firstly I had a great deal of respect for both Officers, and I had personal knowledge of Piet Ntuli's activities.
MR ROSSOUW: There was also co-operation between your team and the Security Police in KwaNdebele?
MR GOUWS: Yes, very close co-operation.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you also share information?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you have access to the information of the Security Police at Head Office?
MR GOUWS: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you also receive orders with regard to the investigations of the Security Police and more specifically Hechter and Cronje?
MR GOUWS: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: Also with regard to this operation, you would have been under the command of Warrant Officer Oosthuizen in as far as the line of command was concerned?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Gouws, did I understand you correctly in response to my colleague's question about whether Brigadier Van Wyk was aware of your involvement in this operation, to have said yes, he was aware?
MR GOUWS: I did not mean that he knew about it, he and Brigadier Cronje did have a discussion at the camp where we lived, but what the content of that discussion was, is unknown to me.
Whether he knew about it or not, is unknown to me.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: When you left him behind with Brigadier Cronje, Hechter and Oosthuizen, do you think he knew where you were going to?
MR GOUWS: I don't know.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So to your knowledge, he was not aware of the operation?
MR GOUWS: As far as I know, he was not aware of it.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Would you also share the same opinion given by Mr Oosthuizen, that the operation was supposed to be kept secret?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And that is why he did not advise Brigadier Van Wyk of his involvement?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And would you also share his opinion that it was secret even to Brigadier Van Wyk, even though there was this agreement of co-operation between the two units?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Isn't that strange that there should be co-operation between the two units, yet there is this cloth of secrecy even at a high command, such as that enjoyed by Brigadier Van Wyk?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, I was a young subordinate Officer at that stage, I didn't ask too many questions, I simply carried out my orders, and got the job done.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you were given an impression by Captain Hechter, that you were to keep your involvement in this operation, secret from your Commander, Brigadier Van Wyk?
MR GOUWS: He didn't say it in so many words directly.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, that is why I am saying you were given an impression?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: That it was to be kept secret, even from your Commander?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: But you were not to know what the conversation was between Hechter and Cronje on the one hand, and your Commander?
MR GOUWS: Can you please repeat the question.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know what the conversation was between your Commander on the one hand, and Cronje and Hechter on the other?
MR GOUWS: No, I didn't know what the discussion was about.
CHAIRPERSON: It cannot be too surprising if they may have told him about what they intended doing, that is a possibility, isn't it?
MR GOUWS: That is a possibility, yes Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you see any reason why they might not have told him this?
MR GOUWS: I can't see any reason why.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chairman, Meintjies on behalf of Captain Van Jaarsveld, a question please.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.
MR MEINTJIES: Mr Gouws, just for clarification, was Captain Van Jaarsveld involved in any way in this incident, Captain Jaap van Jaarsveld?
MR GOUWS: I can recall him at the kombi before the incident.
MR MEINTJIES: What do you mean before the incident?
MR GOUWS: When we were braaiing in the field in front of the Minister's residence.
MR MEINTJIES: So he was present?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEINTJIES
CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Gouws, did you get paid for operations whenever you were involved in operations?
MR GOUWS: Not at all, no.
MS LOCKHAT: I refer you to page 55 of your amnesty application, on Bundle 7 where you said you received R1 000 from Basie Smit for a Nelspruit incident, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that was in Nelspruit, that was not in regard to this incident.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, can I ask what the relevance of this is with relation to the Ntuli incident?
CHAIRPERSON: Just let her ask the question, maybe we will get the answer.
MS LOCKHAT: The relevance is, did you receive any remuneration for this, did you benefit financially from this operation, as in another operation which you said, you previously said you did not really receive any remuneration?
MR GOUWS: I received no remuneration for this specific operation.
MS LOCKHAT: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
MR ROSSOUW: None, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
