ON RESUMPTION
MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Chairman, the following applicant is Mr Goosen.
ERIC GOOSEN: (sworn states)
MR MALAN: Thank you, you may sit down.
EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS: Mr Goosen, your application for amnesty is contained in Bundle 2 before the Committee and the introductory part is from page 295 to page 336, is that correct?
MR GOOSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: Do you confirm the correctness of the contents?
MR GOOSEN: I confirm that, yes.
MR ALBERTS: This particular incident, it goes from page 383 to page 390?
MR GOOSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: Do you also confirm subject to the evidence that you will give shortly, in general terms, the correctness of those pages?
MR GOOSEN: I confirm it, Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: And then lastly, the relevant pages to complete the picture, are from page 489 onwards, is that correct?
MR GOOSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: Do you also confirm the correctness of the contents of those pages?
MR GOOSEN: I confirm it Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: On page 383 the date January to April 1986 as being the relevant dates concerning this incident. Do you still stand by that?
MR GOOSEN: Chairperson no, I heard today that the precise date of this incident was February 1987. At the time of the compiling of my initial application, I could remember that it was at the start of a year and I also remembered that in 1986, at the beginning of the year, I was on an explosives course and I made the deduction that it must have been before my explosives course, but in fact it was the start of 1987 and not 1986 as indicated in my application.
MR ALBERTS: Mr Goosen, on the next page, 384 the account starts of relevant happenings. You also heard Mr Momberg's evidence and broadly speaking, do you agree and more in particular, do you agree with the account as set out in your own application?
MR GOOSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: Is there anything that Mr Momberg said about the incident with which you pertinently do not agree?
MR GOOSEN: I agree wholeheartedly with Lieutenant Momberg's version.
MR ALBERTS: Right. And is that also the case concerning the victim of this incident?
MR GOOSEN: That is correct Chairperson. During consultation, a few days ago, in preparation in the cross-questioning of Hechter and Van Vuuren surrounding the kidnapping of Morudi, there in an answer it came through that the kidnapping took place three months after his house had been attacked and in that same evidence, he also mentioned his niece who had been killed in that attack.
MR ALBERTS: Is that the first knowledge that you had concerning the fact that contrary to what you said in your application, that there was in fact a victim and in fact somebody who had been killed?
MR GOOSEN: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.
MR ALBERTS: Now you have already expressed your sentiments during the previous application concerning the unfortunate consequences that this type of operation held. Do you stand by that too for the present purposes or not?
MR GOOSEN: Chairperson, in this specific situation and as in the previous one, can I just express myself by expressing my deep regret in the absence of the Morudi family. I would like to tell them in person and I can just ask them to try and forgive me for my part that I had in this incident and to make it easier for me to live my conscience.
MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Goosen. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: May I proceed Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Goosen, the information that you had with regard to Morudi and the people that would have been in the house that night, do you agree with Mr Momberg's evidence as far as that is concerned, the question that I asked him?
MR GOOSEN: That is correct, I agree.
MR DU PLESSIS: In other words your impression was that there would be nobody at home?
MR GOOSEN: That is in fact so, that is what we understood from Lieutenant Hechter, and feedback that he got from Mamasela who was involved in the gathering of information.
MR DU PLESSIS: Do I understand you correctly, your evidence is that at the time of the bomb attack, the bomb attack took place before the questioning of Morudi after which he later became an informer?
MR GOOSEN: I did not know that there would be a kidnapping and a questioning, but from information and documents available now, I know now that this incident took place and then three months elapsed whereafter Scheepers Morudi was recruited.
MR DU PLESSIS: So the bomb attack took place, I think we are reasonably sure about this now, three months elapsed more or less and then he was questioned and Captain Hechter and Paul van Vuuren gave evidence and have already received amnesty and during that questioning, he agreed that during interrogation, he agreed to become an informer?
MR GOOSEN: In the structures in which I served hereafter in Security, I was aware that Scheepers Morudi became an informer and he was a registered informer up until 1992, even of the Intelligence Unit of which I was part. I wasn't necessarily his handler, but the Intelligence Unit which operated in the Security Branch until 1992, he was a registered informer.
MR DU PLESSIS: You were not involved in the interrogation, it was Van Vuuren, Hechter and Bokaba, is that correct?
MR GOOSEN: Yes.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
MR NIEMAN: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NIEMAN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR ALBERTS: No-re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, now I find myself in a predicament, because I phoned Captain Hechter just when we started and I indicated to him that he should be here as soon as possible, but he lives in the eastern parts of Pretoria, we went out just now to phone him and he said he was on his way. I didn't think this evidence was going to be as quick as this.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a short adjournment?
MR DU PLESSIS: Please Mr Chairman, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
