CHAIRPERSON: Right. Next on the list?
MR CORNELIUS: Mr Lamey represents Willemse and Nortje and Bosch. I think he will be the appropriate one.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)
MR LAMEY: I will start with Mr Willemse, Mr Chairman. Can we just rearrange the seats.
D G WILLEMSE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Willemse, you're an applicant in this hearing and you're applying for amnesty resulting from your involvement in the operation in Botswana, during which the Chand family - and we know the correct name now, where they had been killed, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: In your application you refer to the Khan family, but it should be Chand.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Initially before you obtained legal counsel, there was an amnesty application submitted at the TRC, dated 12 December 1996, and it was included in the bundle from page 16 up to page 24, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And it was signed on the 9th of April 1996, and it was signed at George by yourself, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now in this initial amnesty statement, on page 14 and 15, 16 and 17 with regard to the political objective, you gave a general broad political motivation concerning the incidents which you have listed and of which you have given brief information in this amnesty application.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Do you also confirm what is contained therein?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And that then being the broad general background against which you as a member of the Security Police and then also in particular a member of Vlakplaas, where you were involved in.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also mentioned that you joined the police in '87. On page 13 there is a short background with regard to your training and when you joined the Security Branch, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: At the time of this incident - as it is now known it was in April 1990, you were a member of Vlakplaas?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: In the initial application that you compiled there is also a short summary of the detail concerning the Chand incident, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Page 23. And you obtained legal representation subsequently and an annexure has been prepared as a supplement to your application, that is now in relation to different applications, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then also with regard to the Botswana attack on the Chand family.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: The relevant part regarding the Chand family has been placed - Mr Chairman, am I correct, it's Exhibit C? The document, the supplementary portion, is that Exhibit C?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Right. Do you also confirm the content thereof?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Could we have a look at the first page of the document, it is page 12 of the supplementary application. Do you also confirm what is contained there, that you also ask for amnesty for conspiracy to murder and then also anything that would be forth-flowing from that, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Could you perhaps just in brief say how long before this operation was launched were you, did you become involved?
MR WILLEMSE: I became involved in the operation, it was on short notice before the operation occurred.
MR LAMEY: And from whom did you receive your instruction?
MR WILLEMSE: It was from Colonel de Kock and Warrant Officer Ras.
MR LAMEY: You also say that as far as you can recall Mr Ras was in command of the planning, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then you also mention that before the operation was launched, that you gathered at a farm - that is in paragraph 2 on page 13, where certain preparations were made.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also made mention in the supplementary application the name of Snor Vermeulen, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is that an error, as him being one of the members who were involved with the execution?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct, he was not involved with the operation as such.
MR LAMEY: You also record that later on.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then you also made mention in paragraph 3, how the activities later on proceeded and Ras led you to the house because he had knowledge.
MR WILLEMSE: Correct.
MR LAMEY: You had a specific instruction to open up the lock at the gate.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And whilst you were busy with the lock, picking it, you heard shots being fired with silencers, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Just to return to that, with which kinds of weapons were you issued?
MR WILLEMSE: I had a Makarov pistol with a silencer, as well as an AK47. The other members had Scorpion machine-pistols.
MR LAMEY: Now you say whilst you were busy picking the lock you heard shots being fired, that was with silencers.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: So you looked up and you saw that Colonel de Kock fell backwards.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And nearby him there was a man on the ground screaming.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You said that you didn't know at that stage whether the person had been shot or whether he had shot Colonel de Kock. You say that Colonel de Kock shot the guard but he wasn't dead and was on the ground screaming.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you went closer and then you then shot the guard.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct, I went closer and I shot him through the head.
MR LAMEY: With the Makarov pistol?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, with the pistol.
MR LAMEY: And later on it transpired that Colonel de Kock injured his knee and that that was after he shot at the guard?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you then recall that you went back to the gate, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct. The other members moved towards the door and they struggled to open the door. I went back to the gate where I had a hammer that we took along. I took the hammer and then I hit the door open.
MR LAMEY: You also mention that there were lights in the house that went on, could you just explain?
MR WILLEMSE: What I can remember quite well is that the torchlight that was in the house, there was a person in the house with a torch shining to the outside. That I can remember quite well.
MR LAMEY: So if you're referring to lights, it's not as if it was an electrical light being switched on in the house, you are referring to a light from a torch?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: You then say that that is how you can recall it, that after the door had been hit in by a hammer you went back to where your weapon was.
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, I couldn't handle the hammer with the weapons that had with me, that was the AK47 as well as the pistol. Everything happened so quickly that when I went back to get the hammer I left my weapons there. I fist hit the door open and I can remember that I went back to take my weapons and then I went back to the house where I entered the house.
MR LAMEY: Mention was made that you could also have shot or fired shots in the house, and specifically the woman. Your comment?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, I am not here to lie, if the other applicants say that I shot the woman, I cannot specifically recall it, but I will not also deny it. If I shot inside and people said that they saw me, I would not deny it. I just cannot really recall it.
MR LAMEY: Could I just perhaps ask you and specifically, do you also have problems with remembering events where you were involved?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also mention that you know that explosives were taken along and were placed and you suspect it was Ras and that the house was blown up.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And after that, after the shooting was completed you tried to get out of the house as quickly as possible.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: So you say it is possible that you also could have fired shots in the house, but you cannot remember it clearly.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And further, with regard to the particulars, on page 14 you say that you don't have knowledge of the people in the house, but you know that it was the Khan family who resided in the house.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also don't know who the guard was that was shot dead.
MR WILLEMSE: No.
MR LAMEY: Your political objective, specific reference to this incident and we have to read that added to the broad general political background, you said that the objective with the conspiracy to eliminate the Khan family was to detect PAC members and to prevent them from coming into the country and to commit acts of terror.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also say that the action was aimed to protect the government of the day and to also combat the activities of the PAC and the revolutionary struggle.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you also say, question 10(b), that during the information session that was held - and can I also ask you, can you remember where the information session took place?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, it was on the farm that we stayed. That was before we entered for the operation.
MR LAMEY: Can you remember that Mr Khan was identified as a person who actively supported the PAC by accommodating them and from where attacks were then launched against the people in the country, in the RSA?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You believed that it was necessary for this operation and in the struggle of the Security Forces against the liberation movements.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Could I perhaps just ask you, you also received specific instructions to be part of this group and in particular from Colonel de Kock.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: An operation which is in fact a foreign operation, you don't know specifically from whom Colonel de Kock received his instructions.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Could I perhaps ask you, did you believe that it had to be cleared at Head Office?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, I was under the impression.
MR LAMEY: You also say that during the information session it was specifically mentioned that the Khan children are involved with assistance to PAC activists by walking with them in a group of ahead of them when the border was crossed. Now reference is made of the Khan children in your application, could you perhaps just elaborate on that?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, the information that was given by Warrant Officer Ras boiled down to the fact that the Khan children who had been mentioned weren't really children, but that they were adult sons. As I understood it during the information session, that they acted as guides to take the people, the PAC people up to the border.
MR LAMEY: So if mention is made of children, at that stage it wasn't a case of them being young children, that wasn't discussed.
MR WILLEMSE: No, I did not form the idea that it would be young children, 10, 11 or 9 years old.
MR LAMEY: And do you also confirm the issue concerning the instruction that the operation was planned and executed under the command of Colonel de Kock?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure whether I've covered everything. I think so. Mr Chairman, I think that is my evidence-in-chief, thank you.
MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: Just to come back - my apologies.
I'd just like to return to the following. Did you also know that the house itself would also be a target with regard to an explosion?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct, the house as such was also a target and the people in the house.
MR LAMEY: So that would also now be the destruction of the house.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: So you would also like to apply for amnesty for the property, the damage of the property.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: You carried the explosives in, didn't
you?
MR WILLEMSE: I can't remember that I carried as such, but I remember that I had a bag in which I had a hammer and a cutter for the lock. I remember I carried that. Chairperson, I could perhaps also say that I'm not an explosives expert. I would also not have handled it.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)
"Ons het springstof saam geneem"
MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman. We have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Britz and Vermeulen. I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR JANSEN: Jansen, on behalf of Ras, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, just one question.
Mr Willemse, on page 20 of the bundle - if you could just page to there, paragraph 11, you refer to a party where certain people had been present. I'm not quite sure what the relevance of this party is, but you mention the names of people who are my clients. Could you perhaps just tell me what this paragraph is all about?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, I would just quickly want to read.
CHAIRPERSON: This was to celebrate your transfer in 1985, wasn't it?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, when I made this statement it was in front of the Investigating Team and there were so many parties on the farm that I can't really place this, why I specifically mentioned it. There was an incident one afternoon where I carried gravel to Vlakplaas and after which Colonel de Kock invited me to enjoy a beer with them. I don't know whether that is referred to in paragraph 11.
MR WAGENER: So you're not trying to say something here where I have to read between the lines?
MR WILLEMSE: No, that is not the intention.
MR WAGENER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I must just say, there are portion here which are not really relevant to this specific incident, which is also just by, by accident just formed part of the bundle. There is no real reliance placed on that in this incident, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, one, maybe two questions.
Mr Willemse, this affidavit is the one that you gave to the Attorney-General, and that was with the intention of becoming a State witness.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
MR BOOYENS: Booyens on record, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
COUNSEL: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Willemse, the instructions that you received at the farm before you went out on the operation, do you confirm the previous applicant's recollection of it, that everybody in the house was to be killed?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MS PATEL: And can I ask you, the guard that you shot and killed, was he armed?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, I can't remember that I saw a weapon with him.
MS PATEL: Alright. My instructions from the family are in fact that he wasn't armed, that the guard didn't carry a weapon.
MR WILLEMSE: I cannot comment on that.
MS PATEL: And then the question of the embankment, you say you saw Mr de Kock fall at this particular embankment.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, I saw that he fell down the embankment.
MS PATEL: Do you recall how far from the gate where the guard was, this embankment was?
MR WILLEMSE: I cannot remember precisely, but regarding the lighting, there were some of those lights that you would get in the black townships. It wasn't a very bright light, but you could identify people.
MS PATEL: Would you dispute the family's saying that this embankment, that there is an embankment but it's about 20 metres away from the fence itself, that it doesn't fall straight or flush up against the fence?
MR WILLEMSE: I can't really recall what the distance is.
MS PATEL: Okay. And you say you can't remember at all shooting Mrs Chand.
MR WILLEMSE: I cannot recall it. I can specifically remember the guard, but I cannot deny that I shot anyone in the house. If I did, I won't deny it.
MS PATEL: I find that strange, Sir, were you involved in so many operations that you cannot recall having shot a woman or what is this lack of memory?
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, I could also have said that I didn't fire a shot. I'm not here to tell lies. I really cannot remember that I specifically fired a shot in the house. But is there are other people who say that they saw that I fired a shot, then I won't deny it.
MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if you'd grant me one moment please.
MR WILLEMSE: Chairperson, I might just add that I'm suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and that certain aspects of my recollection are not that good anymore. My long-term memory has suffered greatly as a result of my disorder.
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I'm done.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: I omitted just to ask one thing in chief-examination, which I realised afterwards. With regard to the question regarding additional compensation or remuneration in the additional amnesty application, you said that it was not applicable. Can you recall whether you received any additional remuneration which was connected to this operation?
MR WILLEMSE: No, I didn't.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no questions, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: Mr Willemse, have you been diagnosed by a doctor to be suffering post-traumatic stress?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct, Chairperson, I have diagnosed by a psychologist as suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. As a result of this disorder I have lost my job in the police.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, will this be a convenient stage?
CHAIRPERSON: Well knowing that some people are keen to take their departure because they feel they have other more important things to do tomorrow, perhaps we'll take the adjournment now. What time on Thursday?
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I suggest 10 o'clock on Thursday, seeing that people are going to go away to some distant parts of the country.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what I want to know. Is anybody coming back on Thursday morning? Are you?
MR DU PLESSIS: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I think everybody is coming.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, the way it's going I think we'll comfortably finish the application in the allocated time.
CHAIRPERSON: Right, 10 o'clock on Thursday morning.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, may I just enquire, Mr Willemse is from Mossel Bay, could he be excused if so advised by his legal representative? - from attendance.
CHAIRPERSON: On the same basis as the previous applicant. If for some unforeseen reason you require him, he'll have to come back.
MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
