C KLOPPER: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: May I proceed Mr Chairman? Thank you.
Mr Klopper you are an applicant in an amnesty application which emanates from your involvement in an investigation that took place, an interrogation of Mr Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: During the proceeding week or weeks we have seen that your were also an applicant in the Komatipoort Incident and we have heard your general evidence with regard to the run up to your amnesty application?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Just to return to the bundle which has been placed before you, initially you submitted an amnesty application, you completed the prescribed form yourself, that is from page 30 to 38 and in that initial amnesty application you provided summaries regarding various incidents in which you as a member of the security police and specifically Vlakplaas were involved and these incidents to which you have referred are also extracts from evidence which you gave before the Goldstone Commission and which were withdrawn from statements which you made to the investigating team of the Attorney General?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: As such you did not have any thorough statements with you when you initially completed your amnesty application and also not when you compiled the supplementary application?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that in your initial amnesty application you mentioned offences which were committed among others during your period of service with Vlakplaas and which boiled down to fraud, false presentation with regard to state funds and theft for you would not qualify for amnesty within the scope of the act and this was not repeated later with regard to your supplementary amnesty application?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Your supplementary amnesty application and the relevant extract with regard to this incident can be found on page 43 up to and including 56 of the paginated bundle?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Those charges of fraud and theft which have been subjects in the De Kock matter have also been testified by you?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Just to return to your initial form you mention in paragraph 10 (d) informer fees?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And then we see on page 39 there is a paragraph 4 which mentions so called informer claims which was served and that the money was divided afterwards by you and De Kock?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: The reference to informer fees in the initial application, does this have relevance among others for paragraph 4?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And this is not something that you are actually requesting amnesty for?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Thus is it correct then in your introductory paragraph to your supplementary amnesty application paragraph 48 that this does not form part of your amnesty application because you are not qualifying for amnesty for that?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Then on page 48 up to and including 51 there is a general background of when you joined the police in 1985 and after that you were transferred in '87 to the security branch in Soweto where you were a member of a counter-terrorism unit under the leadership of Grobbelaar?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And in 1989 you were transferred to Vlakplaas where you were under the command of Eugene de Kock who was at that stage a major?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: That it is common cause that this incident with regard to Mabotha for which you have requested amnesty took place early in 1989?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: What was your rank at that stage?
MR KLOPPER: I think I was a sergeant or a warrant officer.
MR LAMEY: One of the two?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: How old were you at that stage, early 1989?
MR KLOPPER: I was either 19 or 20.
MR LAMEY: You were born in 1966 so that would put you at the age of 22 or 23?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Just to deal with that swiftly, you were not at Vlakplaas when Mabotha was killed?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You heard about this later?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you tell us how you came to hear of Mabotha for the first time?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I was working in Soweto where Jacobse and I received an order from Grobbelaar to join him and Lieutenant du Toit where they were in Marble Hall and they had arrested an MK member.
MR LAMEY: Were you called to Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: When you were called did you understand that there was an MK member who had been arrested?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: With whom did you depart from Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: With Lieutenant Jacobs.
MR LAMEY: Was he a member of your unit?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: That would be the terrorist training unit which was a part of the Soweto Security Branch?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you then went to Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: To the security offices there?
MR KLOPPER: I'm not entirely certain where it was, but it was in Marble Hall.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether you arrived there in the morning or in the evening?
MR KLOPPER: The time that I spent there was a day and that very same evening we departed back to Soweto.
MR LAMEY: Are you saying that you did not spend the night there?
MR KLOPPER: No I did not.
MR LAMEY: Who from the Soweto Security Branch was already at Marble Hall when you arrived there, apart from you and Lieutenant Jacobs?
MR KLOPPER: It was Grobbelaar, Lieutenant du Toit and Warrant Officer van Tonder.
MR LAMEY: All members of your unit?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Were there also security branch members from Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, however I cannot recall their names.
MR LAMEY: When you arrived there you saw the detained person?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Where was he upon your arrival there?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall exactly.
MR LAMEY: Could it have been at the security branch offices?
MR KLOPPER: Yes it is possible.
MR LAMEY: What happened further? Or let me put it this way, according to your knowledge, had he been arrested, this person, let us just speak of Mabotha. It appeared later that it was Johannes Mabotha, had he been arrested?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, I assume that he had been arrested. He was in the detention of the security branch.
MR LAMEY: And did anybody else arrive there?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall at exactly which stage but Mr de Kock and Riaan Bellingan also arrived there.
MR LAMEY: And were you aware that they were from Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes I knew that they were from Vlakplaas.
MR LAMEY: What else did you find out about Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: At a stage it came to my knowledge that he had been an askari who had defected and that allegedly he had returned to the ANC and he had contact with Winnie Mandela.
MR LAMEY: Where had he been an askari?
MR KLOPPER: At Vlakplaas.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether the issue of discussions with tapping devices came to light with regard to Winnie Mandela?
MR KLOPPER: Yes at a stage mention was made of it, I don't know who spoke of it but the content of the discussion was but that the liaison with Winnie Mandela had been traced by means of tapping the conversations between Mabotha and Mandela.
MR LAMEY: When you were at the Soweto Security Branch did you know that the telephone conversations of Mrs Mandela were being monitored?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: However you yourself were not a party to this tapping of her conversations between her and specifically Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: No.
MR LAMEY: But you did know about this?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: After you had arrived at Marble Hall and you had seen Mabotha there, was he taken to a specific place?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, Mabotha was taken to a farm outside Marble Hall with all the persons who had been present there, all the security officers.
MR LAMEY: You refer to branch members, do you mean from Soweto?
MR KLOPPER: Yes and from Marble Hall and from Vlakplaas.
MR LAMEY: And that would then be De Kock and Bellingan from Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: What happened further at this farm?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, at a stage the interrogation of Mabotha began, interrogation regarding his activities in the ANC in order to extract information from him.
MR LAMEY: Which specific information did you as members of the Soweto Security Branch want with regard to this person?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall specifically what we were interested in but I can imagine that it would be weapon stockpiling places, safe houses which were used by MK members or possible MK members who were hiding and whether he knew where they were hiding.
MR LAMEY: So to summarise, you were interested in the movements and identities of other MK members that he may have known of?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: As well as the concealment of weapons and the so called safe houses?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: These safe houses that you have referred to, what houses were these?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, it could have been any house, homes of families who were favourably inclined towards the ANC and infiltrated members who would accommodate these members at their homes or would even conceal weapons in their homes.
MR LAMEY: So places where weapons were stored or where MK members would be accommodated?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: During the interrogation Mr Mabotha, what was his level of co-operation? What else happened during this interrogation?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall exactly whether or not he gave his full co-operation, the person was assaulted, but I cannot recall exactly what his level of co-operation was if there was any co-operation in any event.
MR LAMEY: In which manner was he assaulted?
MR KLOPPER: He was suffocated by means of an inner tube, he was assaulted by means of blows and kicks to his body. At a certain stage Bellingan produced gloves and placed ice in Mr Mabotha's anus.
CHAIRPERSON: Bellingan?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: I don't know if I heard you correctly, did you also mention that he had been hung upside down?
MR KLOPPER: At a certain point he was hung upside down and Bellingan produced the ice which was then placed inside his anus.
MR LAMEY: You say that he wore gloves?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you also participate in this assault?
MR KLOPPER: Yes I did. With regard to the ice I did not participate in that action.
MR LAMEY: If you will look at paragraph 5, you state that during the interrogation, Mabotha gave certain information about the identification of cohorts and where weapons could be found?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it your recollection that such information was provided at a certain point?
MR KLOPPER: Yes. The reason why I would say that is that when we moved back to Soweto or the Soweto environment, we later searched houses that night so I cannot tell you pertinently that such information was actually given but it must have been if we have then gone ahead and searched certain homes.
MR LAMEY: But today after all this time you cannot recall specific detailed information to that effect, your recollection is that after that you returned to Soweto, that he had made certain identifications so you deduced from that that you must have given some level of co-operation and information?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: How or what time approximately did you return to Soweto?
MR KLOPPER: I can't recall precisely but what I do remember is that it was at night and Mr Grobbelaar's vehicle lights were not working at a certain point and he drove behind us or with me and Lieutenant Jacobs so that he could follow our lights.
MR LAMEY: Were there any askaris on the farm at Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall there were no askaris there, we met them at the Soweto security branch offices.
MR LAMEY: And do you know whether Mabotha was assaulted at the Soweto security branch by anyone?
MR KLOPPER: He was detained among the askaris and he was assaulted by some of them but I don't know who these persons were.
MR LAMEY: And was he taken outside to do any kind of identifications?
MR KLOPPER: Yes we took him to go and identify certain houses.
MR LAMEY: Who else from the Soweto security branch were present when this took place?
MR KLOPPER: The persons who were present at Marble Hall went along on this excursion.
MR LAMEY: Was Mr Grobbelaar there?
MR KLOPPER: Yes he was but I cannot remember who of the members from Soweto were also present but the persons who were present at Marble Hall were also present in this instance.
MR LAMEY: And after those identifications, where was he taken?
MR KLOPPER: I never again saw Mabotha.
MR LAMEY: Was he brought back to the offices after you had driven out and taken the identifications, what is your recollection? Was he brought back?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall.
MR LAMEY: You also mention here that you were not a member of the investigating unit of the Soweto security branch?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: However, you do say that according to your knowledge he was delivered to the investigating team of the Soweto security branch?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is how it worked. We were the field team and we would then arrest the person and deliver him to the investigating team who in their turn would lodge further investigations and charge the person.
MR LAMEY: And you didn't know what else happened to him during his further detention?
MR KLOPPER: No, I know nothing further.
MR LAMEY: During the interrogation and assault there on the farm at Marble Hall was everybody who was present there consistently involved or what was your recollection?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall which persons were there all the time or which of them departed. As far as I can recall Lieutenant Jacobs and I went to purchase food at a certain point and that is what I can recall that for a certain period of time we were not present there.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether Major Grobbelaar was there throughout the time?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall with certainty.
MR LAMEY: Can you say whether Mabotha as a result of the assaults on him had been injured?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically but when I recall the assault there must have been injuries which were visible.
MR LAMEY: Was he seriously assaulted?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, according to my judgement he was.
MR LAMEY: So you cannot recall in detail what the nature of his nature of his injuries were but as a result of his detention you would automatically assume that he would have visible injuries?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: At that time, was it a serious matter when somebody who was an askari member and an MK member, if he once again became involved among the ranks of the ANC?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, he could have conveyed a great deal of information pertaining to us to them.
MR LAMEY: And how would such a person be regarded?
MR KLOPPER: As a traitor.
MR LAMEY: Mr Klopper, you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the assault on Mr Mabotha, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: But you maintain you were not a member of any plan or conspiracy to murder Mr Mabotha, you have no knowledge of any decision making process with regard to this?
MR KLOPPER: No.
MR LAMEY: The question with regard to the political objective on page 55 over to page 56, as you say that the broad political objective at that stage was to combat the onslaught of the ANC/SACP Alliance?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And according to you he was an ANC member who had previously been an askari at Vlakplaas and who had turned, as they put it?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And this presented a great risk and danger?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Furthermore you say with regard to your motivation for your involvement that you received an order to go to Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: In retrospect was that order aimed at participating in the interrogation of the subject?
MR KLOPPER: Yes it was to participate in the interrogation, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: In paragraph 10 (b) you say as already mentioned Johannes Mabotha was a former askari who had worked at Vlakplaas, he once again made contact with senior persons in the ANC ranks among others Winnie Mandela according to typing which was undertaken. The fact that he rejoined the ANC ranks and along with the information that had had as a result of his involvement as an askari with the security police, held potential dangers. The objective with the interrogation was to obtain further information with regard to co-workers who had been stockpiling locations and the so called safe houses and the idea was to combat the activities of specific MK members?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You say that normally the ANC members who had been arrested would not give spontaneous co-operation during interrogation and as a result coercion methods such as assault and torture were used in order to obtain information from these persons?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also say that your recollection of his behaviour on that day is not specific but what you maintain is that this must have been the reason for the interrogation?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Due to the fact that he had been an askari and had once again joined the ranks of the ANC, he was regarded as a traitor among the ranks of the security police?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Then with regard to the order or the approval you say that you were called by Major Grobbelaar who was the commander of your unit and you were a sergeant or a Warrant Officer at that time?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And during the assault and interrogation of Mabotha, Major Grobbelaar and Major de Kock were in control of the interrogation process?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also referred to them as having occupied the highest ranks during this interrogation?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, at the scene of this interrogation.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I think that's the evidence in chief, thank you.
Just one aspect, you did not receive any additional reward for your involvement in this matter?
MR KLOPPER: No I didn't.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on behalf of De Kock.
Mr Klopper, I see that you have mentioned that I put you under cross-examination for 23 days during the De Kock trial and I can assure you that this will not happen again.
It was only after this Mabotha incident that you joined Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And if I recall correctly, then your involvement in the Mabotha incident and the presence of Mr de Kock gave rise to the fact that you were sent to Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, well the first time I met Mr de Kock was during this incident.
MR HATTINGH: You say in these documents that you were impressed with him and that you regarded it as an honour to join Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And that you regarded this unit as an elite unit?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Was this unit ...(inaudible) from the other members of the security branch who did not serve at Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, there was a certain element of jealousy.
MR HATTINGH: I would like to know from you, Mr Klopper, with regard to singular aspects, are you applying for amnesty for the Nelspruit incident?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: And the Sambo incident?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: And the Dirk Coetzee, Bheki Mangene incident?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: Very well, I would just like to examine you in general regarding the background pertaining to the activities at Vlakplaas, I don't know whether I will have this opportunity again. Regarding the Sambo matter, just to give brief information to those persons who are not aware of what happened there, this is where the security branch interrogated a person at Skoormans and this was the incident during which the person who was being interrogated died and assistance was requested from Vlakplaas and you were deployed by Mr de Kock to receive the body, that was in Lichtenburg?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, it was somewhere in the Eastern Transvaal.
MR HATTINGH: And from there you took the body to Verdrag, a police training base in the Northern Transvaal?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: This is also where you destroyed the body by means of explosives?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Did you report to any higher officer and when I refer to higher officers I mean someone like Mr de Kock after this incident?
MR KLOPPER: Do you mean the Sambo incident?
MR HATTINGH: Yes.
MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall, Colonel du Plessis or General Engelbrecht would be the officers to whom was reported.
MR HATTINGH: Which of these two did you indicate during the De Kock trial? I think that you indicated Du Plessis' name and I cannot recall whether you mentioned Engelbrecht's name but definitely that of Du Plessis?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: So he was informed regarding the incident?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: Did he appear upset over this, did he admonish you for having been involved in this incident?
MR KLOPPER: No Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: With regard to that incident we heard that afterwards generals and colonels went down to the Skoorman base?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, there was quite an extensive investigation.
MR HATTINGH: Very well, in general Mr Klopper, when you became involved in incidents such as the Mabotha incident, what was your impression regarding the higher hierarchy's attitude towards that and by the hierarchy I'm referring to the generals and the commanders at head office. What was your impression and your perception of what their attitude would have been towards this?
MR KLOPPER: That it had taken place with their approval.
MR HATTINGH: That it enjoyed their approval?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: Was this the general perception at Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And we have repeatedly heard about functions which were held at Vlakplaas during which these generals were present?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Did you ever hear that anybody particularly from head office had admonished or addressed or attempted to discipline a member of Vlakplaas with regard to matters such as the Mabotha incident or any other incident that you are requesting amnesty for?
MR KLOPPER: No Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Just in general, we've also heard evidence about false claims which were instituted in order to cover the costs of these functions which were held at Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: Did you participate in such false claims?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: And were you aware of the fact that these false claims would be used to cover the costs of these functions?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: What was your perception of the knowledge of the guests who were present there, who did they think was paying for this?
MR KLOPPER: My perception was that they knew what it was for, that it all took place with their approval.
MR HATTINGH: Can we just get to your involvement with the Soweto security branch with regard to Mr Mabotha? You say you were a member of the field team?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And although you were not involved with the investigation you must have received some information with regard to so called active terror in the area where you worked?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you receive information about Mrs Winnie Mandela's activities or her so called soccer club's activities or the activities of people who liaised with her?
MR KLOPPER: Yes at several occasions such information was indeed available.
MR HATTINGH: Did you ever receive information that persons at her club, there were persons involved who on their own were involved with attacks on police officers?
MR KLOPPER: I did not personally receive such information but there was hearsay to that effect.
MR HATTINGH: Information received, did you also work with informers and sources at security branch?
MR KLOPPER: Yes I did.
MR HATTINGH: Did you ever receive information from sources but not about Mrs Mandela but about people who were involved with her organisation who were involved with attacks on police?
MR KLOPPER: Not myself, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: After Mr Mabotha was transferred from Marble Hall to Soweto you say he was questioned by members of amongst others the askari members from Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know why the questioning continued?
MR KLOPPER: I don't know, my personal impression was because it was of revenge because this person was seen as a traitor.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether the members of the Soweto security branch was still involved in his questioning in Soweto after he arrived there?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember that Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Were you involved?
MR KLOPPER: No, I was not involved.
MR HATTINGH: We know that the arrest of Mr Mabotha took place on the 22nd February, if I recall correctly?
MR KLOPPER: I don't know that specifically, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Well you can accept it as given but we also know that on the 4th April he was according to the stipulations of Section 29, the Act of Internal Security, he was detained, did you know of that?
MR KLOPPER: No I didn't, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether the reason of this lapse of time between his arrest and detention could be ascribed to the fact that they might have given him the opportunity to recuperate from his injuries because of the assaults?
MR KLOPPER: I don't know Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: But you say as far as you can recall he did have visible signs of assaults?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: And this was after the assault at Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And there you say he was further assaulted in Soweto?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The reason for this would have been if it was the persons who were detained in terms of Section 29 were subject to medical examination?
MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson
MR HATTINGH: And security members of the police during this time were particularly sensitive, I can just not recall when the Biko matter was around but with similar occasions they were very careful to evade criticism that persons who were detained were assaulted?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: This pointing out that Mr Mabotha did that evening, I'm talking about in that evening, did this take place in the evening?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I know yes, everything took place afterwards in the evening.
MR HATTINGH: Was this directly after you left from Marble Hall to Soweto?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And did he hesitate when he pointed out these places to you?
MR KLOPPER: Not that I can recall Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Were these residences?
MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: But were there places where the weapons were hidden?
MR KLOPPER: Yes as far as I remember he pointed out places where MK members stayed and where weapons were hidden.
MR HATTINGH: And these houses and premises which he pointed out, was there a search through these places after he pointed them out?
MR KLOPPER: Yes as far as I know.
MR HATTINGH: And was there any indication that those persons who lived in those residences were involved there?
MR KLOPPER: I don't know Chairperson, I don't know if there were any successes.
MR HATTINGH: Did you not get the impression that he was leading you on a wild goose chase?
MR KLOPPER: Not that I can recall Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: I don't know if you said but let me just check that you said in your application that nothing was found at these places?
MR KLOPPER: I think that was Major Grobbelaar's statement. I had an impression but I was not sure.
MR HATTINGH: Was Major Grobbelaar also present?
MR KLOPPER: Yes he was.
MR HATTINGH: And if he says in his affidavit that nothing was found would you accept it?
MR KLOPPER: Yes I would.
MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock as commander, Mr Klopper I now know of our previous questioning of you and that you are not favourably inclined towards him, I don't know what your attitude is now but let us forget about your personal differences that you have had, was he a reasonably strict commander?
MR KLOPPER: If you please tell me what exactly are you trying to say with that?
MR HATTINGH: Was it a man who did not entertain any nonsense?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And also from the members of his branch?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And he acted strictly towards them?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: So they would also be physically disciplined if they acted in a manner in which he did not like?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And if he gave instructions were these instructions obeyed usually?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Do you think that people had respect for him as a commander?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And his instructions were not necessarily complied with because they were scared of him but because they had respect for him as well?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And at the same time they also realised that if they did not execute his instructions they would not be in his good books if I can put it as such?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: He would not necessarily hit them or anything in that nature but it would not count in their favour with him as commander if it was known that they were not willing to participate in any operation?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And this would be to the disadvantage of their career?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I wonder if I could request you to take the adjournment now, I would like to take instructions on a few matters before I proceed with my further cross-examination?
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll now take the adjourn till 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
C KLOPPER: (s.u.o.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: (cont)
Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record.
Mr Klopper just a few aspects. When you questioned Mr Mabotha at Marble Hall did you know that he turned back to ANC?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Did you know that he was a trained MK member?
MR KLOPPER: That was the information that was given to me.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know that he had turned once again and took up the arms against the State again?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And that he was trained to sow death and destruction?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR HATTINGH: Mr du Toit we know, I forget his rank, Captain and I think he was a Lieutenant, but Lieutenant du Toit took a statement from him, were you present when this statement was taken from him?
MR KLOPPER: No I wasn't.
MR HATTINGH: I should have asked Mr Vermeulen about this but maybe you might be of assistance. During Mr de Kock's trial the person who was the prosecutor, Mr Ackerman, told the court that the Attorney General was at liberty to sign a contract with potential witnesses whereby he undertakes not to charge that witness if he gives his co-operation. Doesn't whether a court could give him indemnity or not, can you please tell us if such an undertaking was given to you before you testified against Mr de Kock?
MR KLOPPER: Yes such an undertaking was given to me.
MR HATTINGH: That you will not be prosecuted if you co-operated and although the court did not give you indemnity?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And the court, the charges that were laid against Mr de Kock, you received indemnity?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then with regard to something in your statement, in your evidence in chief your attorney asked you about it, with regard to false claims. Is it correct that at a stage specifically towards the end of Vlakplaas or towards the end of the existence of Vlakplaas' unit false claims were put in by means of confirmation of amongst others of weapon caches?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And other excuses were used that persons might have dealt in falsified American dollars?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And then there were large amounts were paid out as remuneration for the so called information that was received?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Which would be paid out to the so called source who had given this information?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: But this was never paid to him and Mr de Kock kept most of the money and sometimes a small amount was given to you?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: I assume Mr Klopper that you don't know from personal knowledge what Mr de Kock did with the part of the money that he kept?
MR KLOPPER: No that's correct, I don't know.
MR HATTINGH: He could have kept a part of it for himself but he also could have used a large amount of the money for payment of costs as we have heard this morning for the costs to help Mr Flores from his financial position?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And we heard something of a heart by-pass operation that had to be paid?
MR KLOPPER: I don't know about that.
MR HATTINGH: Very well, those false claims which were filed and the money that you received for it, this was not remuneration for your participation in any operation, this was just fraud and Mr de Kock was charged and he was sentenced and he does not ask amnesty for those issues?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of Britz, Snyman, Vermeulen and Flores. I have no questions thank you.
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener. Mr Klopper, I want to ensure that I understood you correctly. In our bundle there are two amnesty applications of yours. If you could just give me a moment to have a look? On page 30 and then there is another one that starts on page -I will tell you in a moment - and then on page 43 there is another one?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: This is probably where I don't understand properly, with the first application an annexure was attached to it that appears on page 37 where you deal in paragraph 3 with 19 incidents. Do you see that?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: And what causes this uncertainty is the fact that these nineteen incidents, are they still part of your amnesty application for which you request amnesty?
MR KLOPPER: If you would just give me a moment please?
Chairperson it seems that the one that appears on page 30, that starts from page 30 is the initial one which I completed myself and then the later one is the one which was dealt with in consultation with my attorney, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understood it, the question was what you set out at page 38 paragraph 3? That was what the question's about wasn't it?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: Very well, let me ask you in this manner, I see on page 38 for example there's a paragraph 3.2 where you refer to an incident which has regard to a client of mine, Mr Grobbelaar, I don't know whether you apply for amnesty for that but I would like to put it to you any way that Mr Grobbelaar denies these allegations that he was involved in this incident.
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I apply for amnesty for this and it remains as such.
MR WAGENER: And then for what it's worth, the following paragraph is 3.3, the matter of these false claims and so far as I represent General Engelbrecht, I'm not sure if you refer to him but if you do refer to him as one of the Generals, he denies that he ever authorised claims knowing that these were false claims.
MR KLOPPER: This is what I said in my evidence in chief Chairperson, the perception that the rest of the Vlakplaas members was that some of them knew of these claims.
MR WAGENER: And then on the same page 39 paragraph 3.8 where you deal with the incident of Sweet Sambo, you say there that on instruction of General Engelbrecht you went to Komatipoort, he denies that.
MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: What is stated there do you stand with your version?
MR KLOPPER: Yes I do Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: Did you see what Mr de Kock says with regard to this incident on page 67 of bundle 2?
MR KLOPPER: I did not read his statement Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: Where Mr de Kock says that he entered into this operation on his own initiative even after General Engelbrecht told him not to, he did indeed proceed?
MR KLOPPER: Is this on page 67 which I have in bundle 2? According to me this is the Mabotha incident, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: I don't think the witness has that bundle.
MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, this is bundle 2, it was referred to at the outset of this hearing under General by Mr de Kock and in that bundle he referred to a number of incidents and on page 67 of that bundle he referred to the Sweet Sambo incident and he gave evidence on this incident on I think it was the 24th May, at the outset of this hearing and that is the bundle I'm now referring to and I'm putting to this witness that Mr de Kock there gives a different version.
MR KLOPPER: I do not have any knowledge of that.
MR WAGENER: Do you stand by your version?
MR KLOPPER: I did not have any insight into any of the other statements and that's correct, I stand by my version.
MR WAGENER: Very well and then I would like to ask you briefly about the Mabotha incident. Did you perhaps or if you did not, you may ask your attorney if you have a copy of Mr Grobbelaar's statement, this is Exhibit Mabotha B.
MR KLOPPER: Mabotha B? I think so.
MR WAGENER: This is Mr Grobbelaar's statement.
Mr Klopper, he says or he initially deals with certain backgrounds that led to the arrest of Mr Mabotha and he in paragraph 3.4, he says that Mr du Toit arrested Mabotha at Marble Hall, do you see that?
MR KLOPPER: Yes I do.
MR WAGENER: And then he continues and says he heard that Mabotha was an askari and that he had liaised with your commander in Soweto, Mr Nienaber, in paragraph 3.1?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR WAGENER: And then on the following page he says, paragraph 4.3, he says he did not liaise with you to come to Marble Hall. I understand it was arranged by Brigadier Nienaber?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, Major Grobbelaar called us, called Lieutenant Jacobs and I and we went there.
MR WAGENER: Can you please tell us where does Mr van Tonder appear in this picture?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I don't remember whether he was already at Marble Hall or whether he drove with myself and Lieutenant Jacobs.
MR WAGENER: Mr Grobbelaar says that the three of you arrived there?
MR KLOPPER: It's possible Chairperson but I cannot pertinently remember it.
MR WAGENER: And then Mr Grobbelaar says that the following day on the farm he was basically not present the whole day, he gives a long - he tells us what happened there but he says that the result of it was that he was not at the farm, basically the whole day he was not present?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot pertinently remember it.
MR WAGENER: He also further states that he was not there when Mr Mabotha was assaulted.
MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember that, Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: And that he did not participate in any assault?
MR KLOPPER: I don't remember that Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: What is it that you don't remember?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember whether he was there the whole day and whether he left there as he states in his statement.
MR WAGENER: Maybe I have to put it to you clearly, can you dispute his version if he says that he was not there that day?
MR KLOPPER: No, as I have already said I remember that when we returned to Soweto there was trouble with the lights of his car and it might be possible, I can't remember it as such.
CHAIRPERSON: So you can remember clearly that he was there at the end of the day when it was already dark when you returned to Soweto?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: He also says that after you returned that same evening to Soweto you went along with Mr Mabotha where he pointed out certain sites to you, he says it was at a place with the name of Toekomsrus, can you remember that?
MR KLOPPER: I don't remember that.
MR WAGENER: Is it possible?
MR KLOPPER: It is possible but I do not pertinently remember it.
MR WAGENER: But that during these pointings out that nothing was found?
MR KLOPPER: I don't remember that, Chairperson.
MR WAGENER: You did not drive back in the vehicle of Mr Grobbelaar?
MR KLOPPER: No, I did not.
MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: J A C Maribana on record.
Mr Klopper, I just want to find out what part did you take in the assault of Mr Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember what my specific part was but I did participate in the assault.
MR MARIBANA: And are you in a position maybe to recollect what part did other members of Vlakplaas and Soweto security branch, did they take in assaulting Mr Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson what I indeed recall was this was the first instance and the last where I saw where the ice blocks were used as I explained. This was Riaan Bellingan. The rest, it's difficult to say what each member specifically did, I cannot remember it pertinently but as I have said they tried to smother him with an inner tube and assault by means of punching and kicking him.
MR MARIBANA: And yesterday there was evidence before this Honourable Committee that you take part by putting ice blocks up Mr Mabotha's anus, what can you say about that?
MR KLOPPER: If you can please repeat that please?
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I don't recall that specifically anyone referred to Mr Klopper being specifically partaking in that. There's no such evidence in my recollection.
MR MARIBANA: Honourable Chairman, let me just check my notes please.
ADV SANDI: My recollection is that the reference was made specifically to Mr Bellingan and according to Colonel de Kock that is when he decided to withdraw because he had not seen this type of torture before but there was no specific reference as far as I recall to Mr Klopper as having taken part in that.
MR LAMEY: Yes.
MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll withdraw that line of questioning.
And would you be in a position to be able to tell this Honourable Committee as to how long did the questioning take place?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, as far as I recall it was in the morning more or less when we went to the farm where the interrogation took place and what I indeed remember is that we returned that evening to Soweto so I have to make an inference that it was probably more or less one day.
MR MARIBANA: So if I understand you correctly, the questioning took place the whole day?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I recall that's correct yes.
MR MARIBANA: Was there breaks taken during that questioning?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot specifically recall. If I tell you that specifically Lieutenant Jacobs and I went and bought some food but I cannot recall specifically.
MR MARIBANA: And it might be possible that members of the security branch both from Vlakplaas, Soweto and Marble Hall, they might be having breaks between themselves but the questioning didn't have a break?
MR KLOPPER: It's possible, I cannot specifically tell you.
CHAIRPERSON: In that connection, where did the questioning take place?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, it was on a farm just outside Marble Hall if I recall correctly. It was in a - if I recall correctly, there was a type of lapa, an open area where it took place, I cannot specifically remember but it was not in a house, that I do remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Because my recollection is that we have had evidence that the suffocation took place in a room and the hanging up upside down took place outside?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I recall it was outside all the time Chairperson, I don't remember if there was even a house where we were.
MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Honourable Chair.
Mr Klopper, you told this Honourable Committee that the injuries which were sustained by Mr Mabotha were visible, is that so?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot remember the pertinent injuries but my recollection of the assault is that it was indeed so that injuries had to be visible.
MR MARIBANA: So would you be in a position maybe to tell this Honourable Committee what type of injuries did Mr Mabotha sustain?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot specifically remember.
MR MARIBANA: So from the farm did you go straight to Soweto?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I remember we went directly there, we went to Protea security branch which is the headquarters of Soweto security.
MR MARIBANA: Did the questioning take place at Soweto or at Protea as you've just indicated?
MR KLOPPER: It's the same place, it's a police complex in Soweto, Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: What I'm saying, did the questioning continue there?
MR KLOPPER: I have said so, yes it did.
MR MARIBANA: And Mr Klopper, tell me, what information did come up during the questioning, do you still remember what actually you managed to get out of Mr Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I have already given evidence that I cannot recall specifically which information emanated but I can recall that there was information with regard to safe houses. That is why we went to search these houses.
MR MARIBANA: So if I understand you correctly, you can't tell whether that information came from Mr Mabotha or somebody came up with that information?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I can't recall it that way.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he taken with you when you went to search these safe houses?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, it never functioned that way that we would take the person with us into the house but he accompanied us to identify the houses which were later searched.
MR MARIBANA: And nothing was found in those houses, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall.
ADV SANDI: Do you know as a matter of fact whether such houses after he had pointed them out were subsequently searched?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, houses were indeed searched but I cannot recall whether we achieved any success but we did search houses. I think Mr Grobbelaar stated it similarly in his affidavit, that houses were searched.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR MARIBANA: With whom were you when you were going to identify or to search these safe houses, can you still remember?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall who I travelled with, I just know there was a large convoy of vehicles and all of these vehicles drove in and among one another so I cannot recall with whom we travelled.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you have already said that the people who engaged in the searches were those who had been at Marble Hall?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall, the members of marble hall didn't return too Soweto. I know that Mr de Kock and Mr Bellingan but it would have been people from Soweto who searched the houses with us.
CHAIRPERSON: The Soweto people?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR MARIBANA: And then Mr Klopper, okay I heard you saying that you can't remember what type of information you've managed to get out of Mr Mabotha. When did you hear that Mr Mabotha has returned to the ANC and then he had made the contact with Winnie Mandela, when did you hear that?
MR KLOPPER: The first time that I came to hear of Mabotha's existence was at Marble Hall, that was the first time I came to know of him, that was the first and the last day that I saw Mabotha. So everything that I observed took place on that day.
CHAIRPERSON: Well not only what you observed, what you heard. You were being asked when did you hear that he had reverted to the uMkhonto weSizwe and that he had had connections with Mrs Mandela.
MR KLOPPER: Everything emerged during that day.
ADV SANDI: Was that information coming from him or were you being told by?
MR KLOPPER: It was from the members who were present there.
MR MARIBANA: So on that aspect, do you still remember actually who came up with that information?
MR KLOPPER: No, I cannot recall precisely.
MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA
CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first time you heard about the tapping of these telephone calls?
MR KLOPPER: No, it was general knowledge at Soweto security branch that Winnie Mandela's phone was being tapped.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination? Sorry, sorry.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel.
Just a couple of clarifying questions. You stated that it was Mr Bellingan who had used the ice on Mr Mabotha, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MS PATEL: Do you have any idea where the ice came from?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall, it may be when we went to purchase the food but I cannot remember exactly where the ice came from.
MS PATEL: Okay, was Mr de Kock present at that time when the ice was used?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall yes.
MS PATEL: And it was used at the time that Mr Mabotha was hung upside down?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MS PATEL: Mr de Kock has already stated that he assisted in hanging Mr Mabotha upside down. Can you recall who else would have assisted?
MR KLOPPER: I can't recall, it may have been that I participated in helping to do this.
MS PATEL: Okay, can you recall what Mr de Kock's role specifically was besides the fact that he was in charge from the Vlakplaas side? What he did or what he said, do you have any recollection of this?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall precisely but it is possible for the reason that he was the commander of Vlakplaas, he would have posed questions regarding the activities from the farm that he had left. I cannot recall exactly.
MS PATEL: Can you recall whether Mr de Kock had posed questions to Mr Mabotha during the interrogation or whether it was during - there might have been a break in between and the assault on him?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall.
MS PATEL: The information that was given by Mr Mabotha at the interrogation regarding the identity of his cohorts and also the place where the weapons might have been stored, was Mr de Kock present at that time, can you remember?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall.
MS PATEL: Okay, there was just one other aspect. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you'd grant me a moment?
ADV SANDI: If I could just come in while you're trying to decide which question to ask?
Do you know if anything was found in his possession, Mr Mabotha?
MR KLOPPER: No Chairperson, I do not know.
ADV SANDI: Do you know if he was forced to take off his clothes or what?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, usually the person ...(inaudible)
MS PATEL: ...(inaudible) I needed to put as well, but if the ice was used, he would have been stripped, not so?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that's logical.
MS PATEL: Okay. Finally, your sense of Mr Mabotha, was he very difficult during the interrogation process, was he quite a tough person?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, there were various occasions upon which persons would be interrogated and information would not emanate freely towards us but I cannot tell you exactly whether Mr Mabotha was someone who fought against it, I can't recall exactly.
MS PATEL: Okay thank you. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR LAMEY: No re-examination Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Klopper, you were at Soweto, you were stationed at Soweto security police. There is a statement from Johannes Mabotha in which among others he states that he testified in some cases against ANC members and that in fact when he was a state witness in one of these cases he was abducted from two people in Mamelodi. Do you know anything of that sort?
MR KLOPPER: I have no knowledge about that.
MR SIBANYONI: And also as a person from Soweto security police there is a statement of Mr Potgieter who says Johannes Mabotha was supposed to be taken and kept safe at Vlakplaas and not to be eliminated. What do you know in connection with that?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, after the incident and the searching of the houses I had nothing further to do with him. I don't know whether that was the case or not.
MR SIBANYONI: What would you say if someone will say that is sort of a perception that it would appear his allegation that he was abducted could be correct in the sense that he pointed out certain safe houses. You people said nothing could be found, no arm caches could be found and there is this allegation that Winnie Mandela sent him to Botswana and only to talk about Stompie Sipei and if really he was a danger to the security police one would have expected him to be talking about Vlakplaas. There is nothing which you people from Soweto security police discovered which he has disclosed to the ANC about Vlakplaas and is my supposition correct?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I have no commentary about that, I don't know anything about it.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: You have in your statement dealt with various incidents about money, do you remember them?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: On page 39 in paragraph 3.4 you talk about De Kock taking ninety thousand and giving you ten thousand?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And at page 38, the bottom of the page you also talk about money for lunches, hunting trips?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And the same at page 40. You've told that there you were trying to rob a Mr Jerome Marais?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say you gave the diamonds and jewellery to Ferdi Barnard to sell but you never got anything back?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this sort of thing happening all the time at Vlakplaas or were you the only person involved in this sort of thing?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, all the members at Vlakplaas who had access to the secret fund generated money in that fashion. During the De Kock hearing many charges were put to him upon which he was found guilty, charges of fraud.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I'm not only talking about him, I'm talking about the other members of Vlakplaas.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is what I'm saying, it was general practice at Vlakplaas, all those members who had access to the secret fund.
CHAIRPERSON: But who were those members?
MR KLOPPER: All the White members and some of the Black section members.
CHAIRPERSON: And they all profited from it?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And this had nothing to do with their salaries as policemen, this was their benefits for working at Vlakplaas?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were quite substantial benefits?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Lamey, maybe I should directly question from you, what was the intention of attaching the statement at page 37, 38 and 39? Is he also in these proceedings applying for amnesty for these other incidents or not?
MR LAMEY: No Mr Chairman, may I just point to you the introductory paragraph in the supplementary application which starts at - well the supplementary application starts at 43 but then in the annexure thereto, I must just find myself here, there's a paragraph 1 introduction, which is found on page 48. In other words with the intention there was that those incidents referred to in his supplementary application, they've all been listed with the heading like the Mabotha Incident, we don't have everything in his supplementary application here but the intention was here not to refer any longer to other aspects that clearly does not have anything to do with a political objective and the intention is to disregard those as part of the initial application for that purpose because clearly it doesn't qualify for any amnesty.
CHAIRPERSON: It's really to substitute this secondary application or his original application?
MR LAMEY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: If the originals are not repeated they are to be ignored?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Yes. Where specific incidents are repeated they are supplemented as such to give more detail and etc. etc.
May I just ask just one question just to follow up Mr Chairman?
Mr Klopper just to join up with the question put by the Chairperson. You have given evidence about it and it's no longer a secret that at Vlakplaas these false claims were instituted and that various members drew benefits from that?
MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.
MR LAMEY: This specific money which was generated by means of false claims, can you tell us whether it was paid out to somebody specific with regard to general services which were rendered or to fulfil a personal need?
MR KLOPPER: I'm not certain what you mean by that?
MR LAMEY: The funds which were generated by means of false claims, do you know whether any of these funds were used to pay members for general delivery of services or specifically in assistance of somebody with a determined financial emergency?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, De Kock helped those people who were experiencing problems but he wouldn't be paid to go and do his specific job. For example the killing of Mabotha. A person would not be paid to kill someone specific, that was not what it was about.
MR LAMEY: Well let's suppose parallel to specific orders which were given and specific operations which were then executed in order to achieve a specific objective which was aimed against the liberation movements, there would at times behind the scenes be these false claims and fraudulent actions?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: If I understand what you've said and the other evidence that we've heard, there were occasions when Mr de Kock assisted people, heart operation we've heard about, matters of that nature, that there was the other constant bleeding, if we can use that word, of the funds by everybody at Vlakplaas for their own personal benefits?
MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson, this is as I've given evidence. Sometimes there would be functions, there would also be functions among ourselves not only for senior staff members and the secret fund would then be milked if I may put it that way.
CHAIRPERSON: And it seemed to have been done on a sort of commission basis, that Mr de Kock needed ninety thousand for some function and you happened to be there and you took an extra ten for yourself?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, the money would then be divided by him.
CHAIRPERSON: And he might have given another ten to somebody else, five thousand to some here?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And this was a constant?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR LAMEY: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
MR LAMEY: That is the evidence for the applicants, thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other evidence to be led?
MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I do not intend to call Mr Potgieter though I would submit that that concludes the application as far as it goes to this incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Do the family wish to call anyone?
MR MARIBANA: No Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Leader of evidence?
MS PATEL: No I don't Honourable Chairperson, except I just wish to place on record regarding your query yesterday in respect of the court records where Mr Mabotha would have been involved in giving evidence. Unfortunately those records have been disposed of a long time ago so we do not have access to them.
MR ROSSOUW: Sorry Mr Chairman, Rossouw again. May I also give you an indication as to your query about that yesterday, especially in the light that some people take the point that the client that I represent and myself have the direct line with the Attorney General, I have taken the liberty of trying to establish from the Attorney General what has happened in those cases. We have not been able to determine what has happened and whether there was in fact prosecutions or not. I'm still awaiting a final answer but I haven't had a response from the Attorney General right until this time.
CHAIRPERSON: I gather from what else you told me Ms Patel, this is not only the Attorney General or Magistrates Court that has problems but that you have not been able to obtain the complete statement that was handed in at the Section 29 hearing, that also appears to have disappeared as these things do. I think perhaps if we're going to place these things on record, it should be placed on record which may explain the difficulty of obtaining the records, that the one record that the one he was apparently giving evidence in while he disappeared was at a circuit or district court, wasn't it?
MS PATEL: That is correct, it is a circuit court Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So their records would probably not be as available as an ordinary court where there's a book that they write in every morning. We can just hope if you will continue with your questioning of the Attorney General, if one can find out anything as to times and things it might be helpful. Thank you. Does anybody want to start talking now or would you rather talk tomorrow morning because we won't finish tonight. What time gentlemen? Ms Patel? Half past nine, ten?
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, will you then excuse me for about half an hour tomorrow morning?
CHAIRPERSON: You mean you don't want to listen to the other argument?
MR ROSSOUW: I do Mr Chairman, unfortunately I've got another matter to attend to at 10 o'clock but I'll be here about half past ten.
CHAIRPERSON: So starting at half past nine wouldn't help you it would just make it more inconvenient. But rather go and attend to the other matter and get here when you can.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll start at 10 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
