Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Friday, the 4th of June 1999, it is the continuation of the Amnesty Committee hearings at Telkom Park, Pretoria. The Panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record. The matter on the roll is that of Nkozinathi Immanuel Mavuso, amnesty reference AM7921/97. Mr Prinsloo, would you just want to put yourself on record?

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman, I appear on behalf of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: May it please you Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, I appear on behalf of the family of the deceased who are present here today, I am from the Legal Resources Centre in Johannesburg and I am instructed by Ms Miriam Wheeldon in the matter. Mr Chairman, we have had discussions with Counsel for the applicant and we, our colleague I think for - the Evidence Leader for the Commission, and we are agreed subject to the Committee's concurrence, that no useful purpose would be served in starting this matter today. There are facts and circumstances which are to be investigated and on information available to us and the Commission, it would appear that there are people who are not here today who may have an interest in the outcome of these proceedings. We are constraint to ask for a postponement of the matter. We have raised that with the persons responsible for the calendar and we have been informed that the Committee will be available from the 5th to the 9th of July and I think although we hope and trust that it will not last as long as that, it would be as well to allow that sort of period in order not to have part-heard matters involved. We would ask for a postponement to that date.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Bizos, you have raised a matter about my previous involvement. If there is any objection, I would like to know at this stage, because otherwise if it is raised then and there is a problem, then we will have to postpone it again.

MR BIZOS: ... a witness on the information presently at our disposal, whose name is Msibi and who is present here today, appeared before a Committee of which you, Adv De Jager, was a Member. He applied for amnesty, his application for amnesty was refused. I have seen the ruling, I do not on the information available to us, it was not really a credibility issue that you had to decide upon, but rather partly on his own evidence. He had committed the act in respect of which he was applying for amnesty for personal gain, and on that ground, the application was refused. I do not object to your sitting in this matter, I don't believe that there are sufficient grounds, but I thought that I would raise it least anyone else has any objection and also you, yourself, of course I don't know how much of it you remember, having done so many cases, but it would be your decision finally as to whether you are going to sit or not.

ADV DE JAGER: I would appreciate it if perhaps you could discuss it with the witness and you could later tell me what is his...

MR BIZOS: (Microphone not on)

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bizos. Ms Mtanga, what is your position in regard to postponing the matter as indicated by Mr Bizos?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I do agree with the postponement and also I do confirm the date that has been arranged, that is the 5th of July to the 9th of July.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, we did arrange the date as the 5th to the 9th of July. I would request the Committee with respect Mr Chairman, that a statement of this particular witness be made available to us to avoid a further delay in this matter, as this matter was originally set down for February this year and the matter was then removed from the roll at the instance of the community of Pongola from where the victims originated from. Mr Chairman, in the interest of the applicant, to expedite this matter, I would ask the Committee to make a ruling that the applicant's Attorneys furnish us with a statement of this witness Mdu Msibi. We have been furnished a statement this morning of a certain person, only this morning, with certain details and a summary of certain information which we got from the Evidence Leader and it contained certain information, but not the detail which would be required to prepare for this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean the victim's legal representative? I thought you said the applicant.

MR PRINSLOO: The victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS: I don't know whether an applicant is entitled to a statement as of right, I know of no procedure, but we will undertake to do this at least that we will indicate by notice to the Committee and to the applicant the nature of the evidence of the witness upon which we will oppose the application. I think that would be more than enough to enable the applicant to prepare a case, to present to the Committee, I don't know that he is entitled to a statement, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Prinsloo, perhaps it is a bit premature at this stage, to make any particular rulings, isn't it more advisable that you await the communication from the victim's legal representative to see to what extent that meets whatever difficulty you might have?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, with respect, in all the recent matters, we have had pre-trial conferences and we have resolved all the issues beforehand, and that saves time for the Committee and also expenditure, and we know exactly where we are going and what evidence to lead and what not. It will also be in the interest of the Committee Mr Chairman, with respect, otherwise I would suggest that the pre-trial conference be held that we be given the documents and the information timeously so that we know exactly what is going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I am referring to is information which Mr Bizos has undertaken at the very least, to make available to you, shouldn't you consider that and see whether you still have any difficulty subsequent to that?

MR PRINSLOO: I will accept it on that basis at this stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Bizos, if there is any ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, unfortunately it is not possible to proceed with this particular matter this morning. There are a number of outstanding issues that need to be clarified before it is possible to proceed with the matter. We prefer to listen to the matter in one sitting and to dispose of it in one sitting rather than having a situation developing where it is inevitable that we would only be able to hear a portion of the matter and then be compelled to postpone it in any event. Under those circumstances we are going to postpone the matter and it will be enrolled for hearing as from the 5th of July 1999, we have reserved five days for the matter, in all likelihood it would not take all of that time, but in order to avoid us being left with a partly-heard matter in view of the rather pressing schedule of the Amnesty Committee, we are providing a five day period for this matter. It will then be postponed to the 5th of July 1999, we reserve the week until the 9th and it will be heard at the IDASA Centre in Pretoria. The matter is postponed.

We will stand down for a brief while just to allow for the next matter to be ready. We will adjourn briefly.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter on the roll for today are the applications of Johannes Veli Mazibuko, amnesty reference AM6033/97 and Teboho Bennie Tlatsi, AM7397/97. The Panel is as indicated previously on the record. For the applicants, Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Honourable Committee Members, I confirm that I appear for both applicants, Mr Mazibuko and Mr Tlatsi. I believe we are ready to proceed with leave of the Committee, may we proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, do you want to put yourself on record?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader from the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, are there any other interested parties in this matter, victims, other interested parties?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we have four victims as per our information in the Bundle, they have all been notified and they responded to our, they did sign the acknowledgement of receipt, but they have not attended the hearing and they have not indicated whether they oppose or not.

CHAIRPERSON: So those four known victims have been properly notified?

MS MTANGA: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And they are not present at the proceedings?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, and the notification we received indicated that the hearing would start yesterday and they also did not attend yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and you are asking that we proceed in the circumstances?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, Mr Koopedi, who is the first applicant to testify?

MR KOOPEDI: The first applicant to testify would be Veli Mazibuko, but may I just comment about what we have just been talking about and add that in fact the victims have indicated in their statements that they do not oppose the application.

CHAIRPERSON: It is Mr Mazibuko that will be testifying first?

ADV DE JAGER: And the other co-perpetrators, they were given notice too?

MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, to my knowledge, the other co-perpetrators who formed the core of the Unit, were also notified of the hearing. I must add that they are co-perpetrators but not co-applicants, that is right.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. In those circumstances, we will proceed to hear the applications. Mr Mazibuko, in what language are you going to present your evidence?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will present it in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, will you please rise to take the oath? Are your full names Johannes Veli Mazibuko?

JOHANNES VELI MAZIBUKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please sit down and will you just arrange for both your microphones to be switched on, Mr Koopedi. Just for the record, the second name of the first applicant is Veli, not Veli but Veli. Yes Mr Koopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, there is a document entitled "TRC Submission Basil February" which is a statement prepared by the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish that to form part of the record?

MR KOOPEDI: Looking at time, the interest of time, instead of us reading it into the record, we would like that to form part of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Unless you specifically direct that we read that into there record, which we are willing to do.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that will be Exhibit A in this matter, the TRC Submissions Basil February. Yes Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson and may we proceed. Mr Mazibuko, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that Mr Tlatsi is a fellow applicant?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you have applied for amnesty for incidents that occurred between 1988 and 1990, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that, let me rephrase, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I was. I was the member of the African National Congress and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know if your fellow applicant was a member of any political organisation?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was, because we served in the same Unit.

MR KOOPEDI: What was this Unit called?

MR MAZIBUKO: The name of the Unit was called Basil February.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now the offences you are applying for, would you state for the Committee what offences you are applying amnesty for?

MR MAZIBUKO: The operations that I am applying amnesty on are firstly the attack on the Police vehicle at Duduza stadium with a super limpet mine.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you recall when this happened, a date perhaps?

MR MAZIBUKO: I am actually not sure of the actual date, but it happened before - I am not sure whether was it after the commemorations of the June 16 in 1989 or was it actually before the 26th, which we also celebrated as the Freedom Day by then.

MR KOOPEDI: This incident, when it happened, could you briefly tell the Committee how it happened, who took part in that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well, what we did as a Unit firstly, we planned together as a Unit on this attack. After having planned as a Unit on this attack, I personally went for two weekends at the stadium for reconnaissance purposes, where I reconnoitred because there was a soccer team of Policemen who every weekend were used to come into the township to play with other soccer teams of civilians in the township. I personally reconnoitred the place for almost two weeks before this event and after a conviction of the fact that we would be in a position to sort of inflict considerable damage to the military personnel of the South African regime, I personally indicated to members of the Unit that as Commander of the Unit, I would be more interested to be the one who is going to carry out this operation. On that day, which I am not certain exactly whether was it before the 16th or after the 16th of June, we decided that I will go out and carry this operation. On that particular day, I went to our DLB, DLB - dead letter box - that is where I took a super limpet mine. That super limpet mine, I walked all the way to the stadium, at the stadium I paid the due fees which normally any person that enters the stadium, pays. I went inside until it was half time. After half time, I stayed for almost 20 minutes to see the soccer teams playing there. Immediately after the 20 minutes, because I had a super limpet mine which I was supposed to be attaching to a Police van which that Police van would be taking that soccer team of Policemen who it was going to off-load at Murrayvale Barracks where they stayed. After that 20 minutes into the extra time, I went outside, having already primed the detonator, I took the safety pin off. The element that I used for the detonation, was a 45 minute element, which would have allowed the situation where at least it would be almost 25 or 30 minutes when the match had finished and this van would now be travelling on its way back to the Barracks. I then with the limpet mine, went to a bumper closer to a tank, a fuel tank of this LDV van and I attached it underneath there, facing down. Thereafter I left the scene. That is how basically I conducted this operation of the attack on the Police van.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there were certain people who were injured in this operation, do you know anything about them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it is true. Subsequent to this event, one got arrested, that was on the 26th of June 1989 and in our trial, the people who got injured, were presented before - as State witnesses in our trial. That is when I sort of got the first encounter with them at the trial, basically.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now that is in as far as the first incident is concerned, or is that the only incident for which you are applying for amnesty.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, it is not the only incident.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you briefly tell the Committee about the other one?

ADV DE JAGER: (Microphone not on) Is this the incident referred to on page 50 of the Bundle?

MR KOOPEDI: No, it is not.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, not that one? I thought that may be helpful for the dates. Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: It appears it is, the problem is we have it saying Duduza soccer stadium and then (indistinct), a different place, but this is the incident. This is the incident and the applicant it should have been the 11th of June 1989. May we proceed to the next incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just ask him, who were injured in this incident, you saw them as State witnesses, who were they?

MR MAZIBUKO: I actually know one of them, that is Magalie and the others, I think they belonged to the Malinga family.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they Policemen or what is it?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, they were not Policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they injured when the limpet mine exploded, or what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was through the shrapnels because of the glasses that broke within the vicinity of the explosion.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, so where did the, where was this Police vehicle when the explosion eventually happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was actually parked outside the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so they hadn't moved away from the stadium yet, there was nobody in the van?

MR MAZIBUKO: What exactly happened was the match was supposed to last for 45 minutes, but instead because they were playing for a tournament, then it was a draw, then they had to go into extra time, that was the reason why the van was still parked next to the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: So these people that were injured, were they just spectators or passers-by or whatever?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I would assume so.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Can you briefly tell the Committee about the next incident for which you are applying for amnesty?

MR MAZIBUKO: The next incident is the attack at the Duduza Administration offices. This attack, I am actually not certain of the exact date, but it was in 1989, when it was effected. I was personally involved there as well. I used a mini-limpet mine which was put at the drain, the drainage which was part of the foundation of the building of the Administration offices. The sole purpose of this was to create structural damage within that particular building of the Administration offices of the then Duduza Town Council.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know if anyone was injured in this operation?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, no one was injured in this operation. What happened was after a certain time, this mine was apparently, there was a blockage which developed within the drain and it was discovered by the Police and they subsequent to that, used a blanket to defuse it.

MR KOOPEDI: More than anything else, you only planed the device and it did not explode?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Please go on with the other incidents.

MR MAZIBUKO: The other incident which I carried out, was an attack at kwaThema Police station. This attack was also in 1989, it could have been around May if I am not mistaken.

ADV DE JAGER: Maybe, to assist you, maybe on page 47?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, yes. The one that you pointed is the one that I have just spoken about, which is the Duduza Administration offices, those offices were also used by Municipal Police.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, I see, so that is on page 47?

MR MAZIBUKO: Page 47, that is the second one that I have spoken about.

MR KOOPEDI: This second incident, the Duduza Administration office, just for the sake of clarity, it was also used by Security Police personnel, that is other than for administrative purposes?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, predominantly it had been a Municipal Police station basically.

MR KOOPEDI: Would it be correct to refer to it as a Municipal Police station, like the State has it in a matter that was heard against you, as it appears on page 47?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I wouldn't have a problem with that because it was adjoined to the admin offices, as well.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.

MR MAZIBUKO: Life I have indicated that I am actually not certain on the date at kwaThema Police station, but it could also have been around May when I carried out this attack. I carried out this attack right in the middle of the night, it was at two o'clock in the morning when I went to kwaThema Police station, I was actually carrying a mini-limpet mine. I went through a fence after I realised that the initial plan which, after having reconnoitred the place, I thought I was going to implement, which was going to enter right into the building, but due to the fact that there was maximum security after there was alert on a number of the blasts which were taking place in the area, and what added up to resorting to in this operation, was to go and put the mine under the gutter at the building of the Police station. That is how I basically carried out this attack.

MR KOOPEDI: Would it be correct to say that this attack could have happened on the 22nd of June 1989?

MR MAZIBUKO: 22nd? Yes, yes, it could be correct.

MR KOOPEDI: I am looking at page 57 of the Bundle of documents, Chairperson. Please go on to the next one.

MR MAZIBUKO: The other attack was carried, I actually carried out in 1988, October. This was within the midst of pre-election bombing where we intended disrupting elections which were taking place at that particular time. On this particular attack, I went to Dunnottar post office after a constant surveillance of the area, with a super limpet mine, with the sole objective of also entering the building and placing this mine inside the building. On my way to Dunnottar post office, just as I was going to the toilets to prime the detonator, to ensure that I removed the safety pin, I realised that there were Security Branch members who were standing next to the toilets there. On realising that, I then sort of got scared by virtue of the fact that I thought maybe there could be possibilities that there was something wrong within the area. Based on the original plan of entering the building, I then after having primed the super limpet mine, chose instead of getting inside the building, to place it in a dustbin close to the wall, it is almost - I am not sure whether am I good with metres on this - it could be three or four metres away from the wall of the post office. That is how I basically carried out this attack at Dunnottar post office.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that the same as the Nigel post office, page 43?

MR MAZIBUKO: It is different, it is a different attack.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, it is a different one.

MR MAZIBUKO: The next one was an attack at the Brakpan Home Affairs offices. This attack I carried out, it was in December 1988 where I went to the Home Affairs offices at Brakpan. It was Sunday, it was closed, I placed the mine against the wall of the Home Affairs offices and that is how basically I carried out this attack.

MR KOOPEDI: Was there an explosion?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, there was an explosion.

MR KOOPEDI: Was anyone injured?

MR MAZIBUKO: There was no one injured.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know if there was any damage to property?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, there was damage to the building.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, please go to the next incident.

MR MAZIBUKO: The next incident pertains to an attack at Tsakane Police Barracks. There as well after a constant surveillance of movement of SAP personnel and Municipal Police personnel, I decided to carry out an attack. It was in 1988, yes, it was in 1988 where after a constant surveillance of movement of military personnel, I also placed a super limpet mine against the wall of one of the houses which were occupied by SAPS personnel, but before I could get out of the Barracks itself, some of the personnel saw me and they fired shots at me and Ii ran away from the place. Then later on they went out to check what is it that I placed there, and they discovered a mine and they also defused it.

MR KOOPEDI: I see, is it correct that you are also applying for amnesty for having planned an executed all these attacks, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: What I need to know for the Committee's sake, when all these were planned, did you do this on your own, were you with other people, how was this planning done?

MR MAZIBUKO: Before answering that, I think on the original application, there is one attack which maybe by mistake, is not included here, which is the attack at the Nigel post office which will be reflected in the original application, but in terms of this submission, it is not indicated.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, he is referring to page 3 of that document, submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and has he dealt with kwaThema Administration offices, the bombing?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I have not covered that as yet.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't covered that? And there is another one in addition to that you say?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes sir, the one at Nigel post office.

CHAIRPERSON: The one at Nigel post office.

MR MAZIBUKO: Which according to the original application, it is covered, but here I did not include it.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, so there are two further incidents that you want to refer to?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, very well.

MR MAZIBUKO: Firstly I will deal with the one at kwaThema Administration offices. The attack at kwaThema Administration offices was carried, I think it was the 20th of October 1988. The Administration offices at kwaThema were used as a voting station for local government elections and then subsequent to that, because obviously we were opposed to these elections, it ultimately became a target. As the Basil February Unit in terms of the overall mandate of disrupting these elections, I indicated to the Commissar of the Unit, the Commissar of the Unit being Teboho Ben Tlatsi, for him to take charge of this operation and ensure that it is carried to the letter. But over and above that, as Commander of the Unit, I could not leave comrade Ben to be alone there out on the field. On that particular day I happened to be writing an exam in kwaThema. Before I could write for, or before I could go for sitting on the exam, I went via the place to ensure that the operation is carried properly. Comrade Ben Teboho Tlatsi carried out this operation successfully in these Administration offices, by placing a mine inside the toilets of the building, which subsequently exploded.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you present when the explosion occurred?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was writing an exam at that time.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, so your evidence is you went passed the scene and went to write the exams, you were not present when the explosion occurred?

MR MAZIBUKO: Occurred, no.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, just go to the last incident.

MR MAZIBUKO: The last incident which I also personally carried out, was the attack at the Nigel post office. This attack was carried in 1989, I am actually not exact about the date on that, the month. The attack was carried, that is I personally carried it out by placing a limpet mine on a manhole under the building itself, of the post office.

ADV DE JAGER: That is the one referred to on page 43 of the Bundle?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is the one.

MR KOOPEDI: Was there an explosion?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, there was an explosion.

MR KOOPEDI: Could we perhaps drift back to my original question in terms of you know, your planning, who was with you, how was it done right up until execution time?

MR MAZIBUKO: What we did as a Unit, we planned most operations as a Unit. In terms of execution, the operations which I personally applied for, were operations which were personally carried by me. There is one area which I also feel I need to cover here. Initially when we started operating, the Basil February Unit, we sort of started more dealing with structural, hitting buildings basically, but with time, like as you can see in terms of the incident which happened at the stadium, at the Duduza stadium, we sort of decided to change the focus because apart from the fact that we were sort of trying to paralyse the racist regime by then, there could be no way in which we could wish away with forces that kept on killing our people in the area. When I actually speak about this, I do not speak about it maybe as someone who is at a distance, I speak about it as someone who has been a victim where Security Forces tried to cold-bloodedly murder me when I was still a student activist. Where people like De Kock, people like Johan van der Merwe, it is known, it is known to this Commission that there was an incident in Duduza where they booby-trapped certain students, I was one of those, where I was nearly cold-bloodedly murdered by elements of the racist regime. When we changed the focus in 1989, it was solely with the view of sort of ensuring that we show the enemy, the enemy which in this instance, was the racist regime, that there could be no target beyond our reach.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now your Unit, did you get any orders from anyone else in the ANC?

MR MAZIBUKO: Maybe what one needs to deal with here is to try and indicate the difference between a military man and a militarist. Within the context of a militarist, a militarist always - he is someone who is dormant, who always waits for orders to be fed down to him, but within Umkhonto weSizwe we operated within a broader mandate which obviously according to the submission that I have given to the Commission, in terms of the modus operandi, I indicate exactly what is it that we sort of, that is the way in which we were operating, which was to stretch the enemy forces, paralyse lines of communication, so it was within that particular mandate which is commonly known to each and every political soldier, because we were different from other soldiers, hence we refer to ourselves as political soldiers rather than as militarists. It was within that broad mandate in which we acted which was within the quest of the liberation of the black majority.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, you have made an interesting reference to the fact that you were also one of those victims of the booby-trapped hand grenades. I believe you are aware that you will not get amnesty if the actions, your actions, were for any personal gain. My question to you is after you were injured, the operations that you were involved in, were these operations carried on because you had been injured or were these operations carried on you know, in terms of the broad mandate you would have had as an MK combatant?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would wish to place it on record before this Commission that when I understood the first incidents, I am also on record when I appeared before the TRC as a victim, when they asked me whether do I have any grudges or whatever against people who perpetrated the acts of ensuring that I become limbless and I indicated that I understood that whatever those people did, they did within a particular context, you see. The way I understand the struggle, all that I did, was to carry the mandate of ensuring our people. The fact that I was without fingers, the fact that I got injured in the first instance, for instance, in my submission, there is somewhere where I deal with the fact that De Kock and the others planned this attack on us, it was solely to discourage a number of people who after a call of saying, the ANC was saying they are establishing military bases inside the country, those acts were solely to discourage people from actively participating in those events and when one came out of prison, I came out of prison with a view that what I stood for at the beginning, I still stand for, which was the broad mandate of ensuring that we liberate our people. In essence, what I am indicating here is that whether one was limbless, whether one was headless, one would still have continued to fight until the original objective which was liberation, was achieved. It was not a revenge basically.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you regard all these instances for which you are applying amnesty for, as having been politically motivated?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR KOOPEDI: Now finally, your Unit, I asked a question and perhaps I should rephrase it, and the question was where did your Unit get orders. Perhaps let me rephrase it and say who trained you, who gave you the mandate that you had? Was there anyone like that, who did that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well, the submission covers the training part, you see. When we were trained, we were trained inside the country, we were trained by comrades from Johannes Nkosi Unit which was the Regional Command Structure of MK. Comrade Ernest Sigasa was the Commander if that particular Unit. It was within that particular mandate that as Basil February Unit, we acted.

MR KOOPEDI: Were there any reporting procedures, were you supposed to report to him or to the Johannes Nkosi Unit in terms of your activities?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, for co-ordination purposes, as Commander of Basil February Unit, I was supposed to report to the Regional Command which in this instance, was represented by Ernest Sigasa.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you report, that is the instances as they occurred, were there any reports being given to the Johannes Nkosi Unit?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: As far as you are concerned, the reports that you gave, were received favourably in that you were not told that you had gone out of your mandate?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Is it correct that you therefore are asking for amnesty for all these incidents?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I am.

MR KOOPEDI: And perhaps for the Committee's sake, there was a criminal trial in this matter, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, there was.

MR KOOPEDI: And what happened to it?

MR MAZIBUKO: We got indemnity.

MR KOOPEDI: When was this?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was in 1991.

MR KOOPEDI: The indemnity that you got, does it cover the offences that are before this Committee?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it covers some of them.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the case for the applicant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi, have you got any questions Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I only have one question Chairperson, thank you. Mr Mazibuko, the incident that you referred to, kwaThema Administration offices where local government elections were going to be carried out, at the time you placed the limpet mine there, were there people there or was the elections going on or not?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, the elections were going on. The mine was placed inside the building, in the toilets. I would sort of wish to indicate as to the exact position, because I did not put it personally there. I commanded that it be placed into the Administration offices, so as to whether there were people or not, I would not be certain to be honest.

MS MTANGA: So you don't know if there were people injured in that incident?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

MS MTANGA: Who placed the limpet mine?

MR MAZIBUKO: Ben Tlatsi did.

MS MTANGA: That is all Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Are there questions from the Panel?

ADV DE JAGER: As far as you know, no people were injured in that incident?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: No re-examination from my side, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, you may be excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED