MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, may I proceed to call the next and last applicant?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Lazarus Chikane. I will ask that he be sworn in.
LAZARUS CHIKANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, are you also going to testify in English?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Chikane, you - I take it you have heard the evidence of Mr Akila Maphetho, is that correct?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, it is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you are his co-applicant when it comes to what we have referred to in this incident as the second incident, the killing of Zenzile Makhudu?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, it is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, he, I am referring to the first applicant, Mr Akila Maphetho, he has told this Committee that you were involved in the attack on Mr Makhudu.
MR CHIKANE: That is true.
MR KOOPEDI: Can you tell this Honourable Committee how wee you involved?
MR CHIKANE: Myself as a person who has been recruited by Akila to join this Unit that I belonged to, he gave instructions on an activity that we had to carry out, that is attack the house of Mr Zenzile Makhudu. As a recruitee I had no authority to actually start to question whatever the command structure and my orders came from. We went to the house on the night of the attack, I was supposed to actually throw the grenade in the first bedroom, that is the bedroom just adjacent to the street and he had to actually throw his grenade on the other bedroom, which is on the other side of the house. The instruction was that I had to throw my grenade first in the room that was just next to the road and after that, he will throw his grenade when he hears the explosion, on the other bedroom. I didn't go into the yard, I waited for him to go into the yard until he was concealed on the other side of the house. I personally didn't go into the yard, I threw my grenade into the yard, that is hitting the house, so (indistinct) with the intention of it landing inside the bedroom and took cover for a few seconds after the explosion, then I fled.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what are you saying Mr Chikane, you were standing on the street side of the fence and you threw that grenade, do you say it hit the house and then bounced back?
MR CHIKANE: Street side of the fence, yes, it hit the house. The intention was for it to land inside the house.
CHAIRPERSON: You missed the window?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, I am not sure where it landed finally, but the intention was to get it into the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you threw it towards the house and then it went off?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, and I took cover.
CHAIRPERSON: And you took cover?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR KOOPEDI: After throwing your handgrenade, you say you took cover. For how long did you take cover?
MR CHIKANE: It must have been close to a second if I want to be precise, that wasn't for very long. Just to give it time to explode and I took off.
MR KOOPEDI: And did it explode?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, it exploded.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you recall where exactly did it explode?
MR CHIKANE: I can't recall, you know the kind of paralysing fear that I was in, so I didn't even sit around to analyze where it exploded and so on, I took cover and then took off.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you see or hear Mr Maphetho's handgrenade explode?
MR CHIKANE: No, I was in a state of shock I think when I ...
CHAIRPERSON: Was this your first operation?
MR CHIKANE: That was the first and the only operation.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, after rising from your cover, where did you go?
MR CHIKANE: I ran towards the place where we were supposed to meet, at Maphetho's house, just before the gate so that we could meet and decide what to do and we dispersed after that.
MR KOOPEDI: So you did actually meet with him after that operation?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, just after the explosion.
MR KOOPEDI: And thereafter dispersed?
MR CHIKANE: Then dispersed, I went home to sleep.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now do you know if anyone was injured by the handgrenade that you or Mr Maphetho threw?
MR CHIKANE: The first report came from the newspapers the following morning and that is when I knew how the incident finally rolled up.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now were you paid or did you get any personal gain out of or for having participated in this operation?
MR CHIKANE: No, I didn't receive any payment or no gain.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, as far as your recollection can assist you, do you think you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts pertaining to this attack to this Honourable Committee?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, I have made a full disclosure.
MR KOOPEDI: And in your own mind, do you think that this attack was politically motivated?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, it was.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief of the last witness, Mr Chikane.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to put to this applicant?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA: Yes, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chikane, how far is your home from the deceased's place of residence?
MR CHIKANE: I am not good with estimates, but it is about a kilometre.
MR MAJUJA: So, the deceased was well known to you?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, he was well known to me.
MR MAJUJA: How did you know him?
MR CHIKANE: He was a cop, he was a member of the Criminal Investigation Department and as I was also involved in community activities, anti-crime, to curb crime and so on, he was one of those people who was in the forefront to actually tell us that our structures won't take off.
MR MAJUJA: So you are saying that he was, okay, you say he was in the CID and you were involved in some of the community activities?
MR CHIKANE: I personally was.
MR MAJUJA: What kind of activities are you talking about?
MR CHIKANE: Anti-crime campaigns, Mamelodi Youth Organisation, those are the activities.
MR MAJUJA: So I believe that as he was in the CID, you have already met probably in one of the crimes that you were trying to solve in Mamelodi?
MR CHIKANE: Can you come again, I am not ...
MR MAJUJA: Because as he was a member of the CID, a CID member and you were a member of the anti-crime, I don't know whether it is a committee or what?
CHAIRPERSON: Campaign, I think it was anti-crime campaign?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
MR MAJUJA: So probably you have met maybe at the Police station with him?
MR CHIKANE: No, the cops at that time were completely opposed to that type of campaigns, they wanted actually to ensure that no anti-crime activities take place in the townships, so he was opposed to our kind of activities as a cop.
MR MAJUJA: Okay, can you tell us when Akila, the first witness, Mr Maphetho, told you that you should, you will be going to this to attack Mr Makhudu's house, did he tell you like maybe what was the main reason, besides attacking the house?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, well firstly the fact that he himself was one of the key Policeman who actually wanted to ensure that structures don't take off, we were unable to fight crime. When Akila came across to explain that he is one of the people that he has identified as people who are actually in the forefront of leading harassment against people, then I had no other question or doubt that he is the person that we should actually take this action against.
MR MAJUJA: Did Mr Maphetho tell you that maybe that maybe you were going to kill him or, you know, I just want to know that?
MR CHIKANE: I guess with grenades the intention is to kill.
MR MAJUJA: How many explosions, okay, you said you had only one explosion. You didn't hear Mr Maphetho's ...
MR CHIKANE: I said I was in a state of paralysing fear so the senses of recollecting what explosions were taking place, what I heard was the explosion of my grenade, that is when I took cover and took off.
MR MAJUJA: So how far were you when you threw this handgrenade to the house?
MR CHIKANE: I must have been about a metre from the fence, a metre from the fence.
MR MAJUJA: And where did you take cover?
MR CHIKANE: The other, the house next door on the fence.
MR MAJUJA: And you said, maybe after how long after the explosion, after taking cover, how long did you like take, were you like stood around and you left or what happened?
MR CHIKANE: No, I ran.
MR MAJUJA: You ran away?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
MR MAJUJA: Could you tell us what was the time maybe, on that night?
MR CHIKANE: I am not good with estimates, I am not sure, but it was at night, in the early hours of the morning.
MR MAJUJA: Early hours of the morning, thank you. And at what time did you arrive at Mr Akila's house, you don't know?
MR CHIKANE: I also don't.
MR MAJUJA: Can you like maybe estimate, like how long did it take Akila to arrive at his home?
MR CHIKANE: Well, if you insist, it should have been about two minutes or between two and five minutes.
MR MAJUJA: Between two and five minutes? Okay, in your application, I think it is page 2, I don't understand especially if you regard paragraph 9(a)(iv). Mr Chairperson, paragraph 9(a)(iv).
MR CHIKANE: What is it that you want?
MR MAJUJA: You said
"... my Commander, Akila Maphetho has ordered that Zenzile had to be eliminated and this was an instruction from higher Officer."
I want to know like, whom were you referring to here, were you referring to Akila or who, I just want to know?
MR CHIKANE: Higher Officer?
MR MAJUJA: Yes?
MR CHIKANE: No, as a Commander to him.
MR MAJUJA: Oh, the Commander to him?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, his Commander. Whose name I didn't know, I only discovered it when I made this application.
MR MAJUJA: But earlier on you have said that Akila gave you the orders and then you didn't question it?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
MR MAJUJA: So but why are you saying this that ...
MR CHIKANE: I am saying that, all right, command structures in any type of para-military or military structure, obviously if you are linked to an organisation like MK, it doesn't exist, you won't exist as a Unit independent, you always have a line of command that you have to follow and amongst other things that I was not supposed to be as a recruit, is to also try and find out where else this comes from. That was for my own protection and protection of other people that I might be working with. That is why I didn't want to know who gave him that order.
MR MAJUJA: No, it is very interesting. In the very same paragraph you were saying that you were in a state of shock, so you didn't like, you know, you cannot recollect anything but you say that the one that you threw, landed outside the house. How did you see it, how did you know that it was outside the house because you just threw it and took cover?
MR CHIKANE: This application was made in 19 whatever, 19 something, after we had attacked the place, it is upon yourself to decide whether you still want to go and check exactly what happened. I personally, on my own, after a few weeks when all this had been in the press, I went passed that area and checked exactly what happened, that is why I am actually able to sketch the picture of exactly what I said, because I knew the side on which I threw the grenade and I could clearly see where the explosion was, but at that time, I could not even tell where the grenade landed. I think it was for the purpose of actually trying to put across all information that I knew up to the stage when I made the application.
MR MAJUJA: Okay. So, you say that Zenzile was constantly harassing members of the community?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
MR MAJUJA: So have you ever been harassed by Zenzile maybe before?
MR CHIKANE: In one of the forums, anti forum activities that we had at the place, D1, called Greenland, we were actually trying to sort some of the petty criminal activities that some guy has committed, he came personally there in his car and drove into the crowd, we had to rush. And he stood there for a while, parading, so I had you know personal, I was a recipient in one of the activities of harassment that he was giving out.
MR MAJUJA: So, your participation in the attack, you were defending the community?
MR CHIKANE: Exactly.
MR MAJUJA: But how could you defend the community by attacking another person?
MR CHIKANE: Easy, because if you could harass, if you had those type of resources to actually also prevent us from solving criminal activities that we were faced with, then it was for us to actually try and take an action that would ensure that this type of activities are brought to a halt.
MR MAJUJA: Do you regret your actions?
MR CHIKANE: I really regret my actions.
MR MAJUJA: Okay, what is the motive of you being here?
MR CHIKANE: My motive for being here is to actually show that the family finally knows who actually was part of the activities of eliminating their brother, their parent, their father and for that reason, I felt motivated to come here, simply because it wouldn't have been fair on them not to know who actually carried out this attack on their father. For that reason I feel that because there was no (indistinct), there was no investigation, a suspicion against me, it really touched me deeply, to have to come out and expose myself, to say I was part of that type of activity.
MR MAJUJA: So by the way, were you only a member of MK or a member of the ANC? I just want to know that maybe?
MR CHIKANE: Myself, I was recruited into MK directly.
MR MAJUJA: Oh, okay. How long did you like train maybe before this incident, you know, for how long were you like in the Unit?
MR CHIKANE: I think it was about six months.
MR MAJUJA: Six months? Were you part of the team that was like, you know, checking on whether Zenzile was at home?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, reconnaissance, if you had to be part of an action, you also need to be part and parcel to familiarise with the place and try and see exactly what the area looks like, so as to ensure that you avoid injuring or hurting people who you didn't intend to hit.
MR MAJUJA: So you saw Zenzile when he went home, when he arrived at his home?
MR CHIKANE: I was not part of all reconnaissance activities, but I have been there to the house to see what it looks like and so on.
MR MAJUJA: Oh, so it was not on this particular day?
MR CHIKANE: On the night when my Commander went to check if he was home, I wasn't part of that reconnaissance, I was only part of the operation later.
MR MAJUJA: And you know, in your application there is somewhere where you refer to "us", and I just want to know like, who are those other people who are "us", you know?
MR CHIKANE: Can you quote the paragraph and the page?
MR MAJUJA: I think it is 9(4), page 2, but anyway, I think you have already answered that question. With regard to this information that Zenzile was with his girlfriend or fiance, where did you get it from?
MR CHIKANE: The press the following morning.
MR MAJUJA: Oh okay. Could you give us the particulars, can you give us maybe like the date when this order was made to like from, or you don't know, like to eliminate these people.
MR CHIKANE: I can't recall the date.
MR MAJUJA: Were you part of the Mamelodi Committee too?
MR CHIKANE: Mamelodi what?
MR MAJUJA: Committee?
MR CHIKANE: What Committee is that?
MR MAJUJA: No, there was a Committee I understand from the evidence that was made by Akila.
MR CHIKANE: If I knew what Committee you were referring to...
CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Majuja is referring to a Committee referred to by Mr Maphetho when he was giving his evidence, he called it the Mamelodi Committee and he explained that there were various sections which had Committees and then they sent delegates to this Central Committee, is that the one Mr Majuja? The one referred to by the first applicant who testified?
MR MAJUJA: Yes, I am referring to that Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: And he referred to it as the Mamelodi Committee.
MR CHIKANE: Oh yes, I was a member yes.
MR MAJUJA: With regard to your actions, are you satisfied that you have achieved the objective of like you know, the attack maybe?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, it is a kind of a mixed feeling because on the other side I am satisfied that amongst people that were harassing us, we actually managed to reduce the casualties on their side, but for the family and all the other people, I am also sad like you know, we have just taken a life away of someone who would be looking after his kids. It is like it is a mixed feeling.
MR MAJUJA: I don't know whether you have had, I don't know whether you have heard the evidence that was led by Mr Maphetho?
MR CHIKANE: Yes, I was here.
MR MAJUJA: I just want to know like, do you agree with him when he said that Sergeant Makhudu once boasted at Maseko about you know like going to stop the UDF from rising.
MR CHIKANE: No, I wasn't there, I think he put it personally as to what he experienced. I just pointed to something that he didn't mention, that I have been part of that, that I have seen Sergeant Makhudu act out his ...
MR MAJUJA: But are you aware that several people had been helped by Sergeant Makhudu, especially from the movement side?
MR CHIKANE: There might be, I am not disputing that.
MR MAJUJA: You are not disputing that?
MR CHIKANE: No.
MR MAJUJA: Because I put it to you that Sergeant Makhudu in most cases, he was the one who was tipping comrades about the pending arrests.
MR CHIKANE: I can't dispute that, you know, obviously it was a terrible situation. I mean I can't even mention other cases, people were killed wrongfully and, but for the reasons that I have specified, for the kind of things that I had seen, I couldn't even think twice when I was told that he should be the target.
MR MAJUJA: And the only incident I think that you have seen, is the incident where you said that he went through the crowd with a car and parked the car?
MR CHIKANE: An incident is not a totalification of all examples where he has taken part. I am just giving you an example to say in this particular incident, I was there and that is what I have seen.
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, thank you, I don't have any questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAJUJA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions?
MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?
ADV GCABASHE : Just one, that incident where he drove through the crowd, the name was what, Greenlands?
MR CHIKANE: It was in a section called D1, it is a Mamelodi Section M.
ADV GCABASHE : Mamelodi Section M?
MR CHIKANE: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you, thank you Chair.
MR LAX: No questions, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Just one point, small point Mr Chikane, you say that you were recruited directly into MK and you received
approximately six months' training. By that are you saying that prior to your recruitment, you weren't actually a member of the ANC, just a supporter or what?
MR CHIKANE: I am saying that from the time I was recruited to the time that the incident happened, it was six months. The training didn't last six months, I was afforded training in the use of grenades and other type of military weapons, but that didn't take the whole of the six months. So my first contact with maybe an outside or banned organisation was with MK directly, well as a sub-structure of the ANC, one would automatically have membership to the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, that concludes the testimony of Mr Chikane.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that will be the case for the three applicants, we intend calling no other witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any witnesses to call?
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, yes, I do have some witnesses to call, but with the Honourable Committee's permission, may I just like have a short ...
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a five minute adjournment?
MR MAJUJA: Yes, a five minute adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment and then we will reconvene to continue.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that we close our case.
CHAIRPERSON: You are not calling any witnesses?
MR MAJUJA: We are not calling any witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Well, then that concludes the testimony in this matter. Mr Koopedi, do you have any submissions you would like to make? Sorry, Ms Mtanga, are you going to be calling somebody?
MS MTANGA: No, I am not calling anyone Chairperson, but a request has been made to me by two people who are Rosina Mabena and Mr Mathebula, they would like to say something, they do not want to give evidence, but they ...
CHAIRPERSON: Just to make a statement?
MS MTANGA: Just to make a statement before the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS MTANGA: Further to that, if I may put on record that Mr T.R. Rademeyer had appeared for the Mathebula family and for Ms Rosina Mabena.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, I forgot to mention that, he was here earlier this morning and he did introduce himself to us before he left.
MS MTANGA: He also indicated that the two families, that is the Mathebula family and Ms Rosina Mabena were not opposing the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Well, can you call them up.
MS MTANGA: I would like to call Rosina Mabena to take the stand.
CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could sit next to Mr Koopedi there, please Ms Mabena and then when you talk, you must please push the button on. Thank you Mr Koopedi. Sorry, before you start, what are your full names? What are your full names please?
MS MABENA: Rosina Mabena. Rosina Mabena.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct, is it Mrs or Miss?
MS MABENA: Miss.
CHAIRPERSON: That you wish to make a statement?
MS MABENA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.
MS MABENA: It was on the 23rd of January 1986, we were asleep. I heard a noise or a bang. After some minutes, that was after some minutes before I woke up, then after I woke up, I found that the late was in fire. After that, I took water and poured water on him and then two Policemen came, that is Machabane and Maposa. I asked them who called them, then they said someone telephoned them and then they don't know who called them. After that the ambulance came and we went to the hospital. In the hospital I was discharged, then I went to where he was, then he was certified dead when I arrived. Then I came back home.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything further you would like to say Ms Mabena?
MS MABENA: Pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to say anything more?
MS MABENA: Yes, and then now I am injured on the right hand side, then I have (indistinct) operations, then I have an asthma and then my right hand side is not working well. I am saying so because the public in Mamelodi, Makhudu's family and then from his laws, the community was alleged that I was responsible for this incident. I am happy that I am here and that the people who were responsible, identified themselves that they were responsible because the community alleged that I was alleged for this operation. Thank you sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mabena. We appreciate you coming forward. Ms Mtanga?
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS MTANGA: The next person is Mr Mathebula, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathebula, is it correct that your name is George Mathebula and is it also correct that you just wish to make a statement as well? You may proceed, thank you.
MR MATHEBULA: It was on the 13th of October 1985, it was not long that I was from the toilet, then I went to the bedroom. When I was just about to climb on the bed, then I saw two handgrenades thrown in my bedroom. Then we ran, that was myself and my wife and my mother, then whilst we were in the kitchen, we heard the third one. When I went outside through the kitchen door, then I followed one who was running through the gate, then I fell on the ground, then I ran to the next door house and then the gate was closed, I don't know how I entered, then I was helped with first-aid, then the ambulance came. All my clothes were burnt, then we were taken to the hospital.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything further you would like to say Mr Mathebula?
MR MATHEBULA: I didn't know the people responsible for this incident, I first saw them today, this morning, since 1985. I forgive them, but I am just worried about the damage which happened at home and the houses next door, were damaged.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we spoke to your legal advisor this morning, Mr Rademeyer, and we informed him that it is our procedure in these matters that if we identify victims, we forward their names and particulars through to the Reparations Committee who will then investigate the matter with a view to looking whether or not reparations should be made and we will of course do this in this matter as well, we will do the same thing. We have also asked Mr Rademeyer to give details, your details and details of persons who suffered damage, I don't know if the details of your neighbours are included there, but if not, if you could speak to Ms Mtanga. Have you finished now? Thank you Mr Mathebula. Does that then conclude the evidence?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it does.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi, do you have any submissions to make?
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: A very brief submission Chairperson. The Chairperson and Honourable Committee members, three applicants have appeared before you, the first applicant was Mr Akila Maphetho who was involved in both incidents, which is the attack on Mr George Mathebula and also the attack on Mr Zenzile Makhudu which resulted in his death.
Chairperson the second applicant is only involved in the first incident which refers to the attack on Mr Mathebula and the third applicant is only involved with the second incident, the attack on Mr Zenzile Makhudu. Before I proceed Chairperson, I would make an application or a request that the second applicant,
the person who today has been sworn in twice, that his amnesty application be condoned because from what I see, it was not attested to, it was not sworn to. I would request that that discrepancy be condoned as he has given evidence under oath.
Chairperson and Honourable Committee members, it is my submission that other than that discrepancy on the second applicant's application form, I submit that the three applications meet with the criteria and requirements stipulated by the Act. I further submit that from the evidence before you that was brought about through direct evidence and also through cross-examination, all three applicants have fully disclosed the relevant facts, material to the two attacks. I further wish to go on to say that from the very evidence that was adduced today in this hearing, it became very clear that no personal gain was received by any of the applicants. Chairperson and Honourable Committee members, the issue of political motivation has also been brought to the fore.
Finally the last, I am not sure whether to call a witness, but I will jump the gun and call him a victim perhaps before he is declared a victim, the last person to give a statement here, mentioned three explosions. Chairperson, I would with respect ask you to disregard that part in that it was not given in evidence, and therefore we did not see the need to challenge the veracity thereof. That having been said Chairperson, I will ask that the three applicants be given, be granted amnesty. Perhaps finally Chairperson, there has been a request from the applicants and I thought it would be proper to ask that Chairperson, you assist us in this if you can, the request is that after this hearing, the applicants would love to have an opportunity with the families and the victims involved in this matter. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. On that last point, Mr Koopedi, obviously that is also up to the families of the victims and the victims themselves, but I must say that where this has happened in the past in my experience, it has always been a very useful and fruitful exercise and it is certainly a type of meeting that I would encourage and - but I can't tell people to have meetings, that is up to the people themselves. It is and it has been proved in the past to be a good exercise and very fruitful, thank you. Mr Majuja?
MR MAJUJA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would like to call someone to just come and express her feelings about this before I submit my argument because I didn't want it to be part of evidence, that is why I closed my case.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Who do you wish to call?
MR MAJUJA: I wish to call (indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Is this also to make a statement?
MR MAJUJA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Just to make a statement. Could you please take a seat next to Mr Koopedi? What are your full names please?
MS NQOMALO: Lorna Lindiwe Nqomalo.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nqomalo, is it correct that you also just wish to make a statement?
MS NQOMALO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.
MS NQOMALO: On behalf of the Makhudu family, Lehabe, Kokhela and (indistinct), it is not upon the family to disregard the people who came here to apply for amnesty, grant nor refuse to grant them, but we came here to get full disclosure, but unfortunately we feel that we did not achieve what we came here for. The things that we feel that were not mentioned is that the people who actually took upon the operation, according to me were immature. Why I am saying this is because of I mean, you can see that their training was limited and the way they attacked the house, the grenade that actually killed my stepfather, it is not possible if you could have thrown that handgrenade, it could have actually landed in his legs, but you could see that they had full information, breaking the window and attacking him in the head, where they knew that he was going to be helpless. Rosina, you are right by saying that the family was suspecting you, yes, we did. The people who came here and testified, we feel that there was a lot of collaboration because how can as Akila mentioned, that some of the grenades you know, they've got a certain impact, why you didn't sustain injuries where you could have been even admitted for you know, even three days in hospital, but you were discharged immediately. My father, to be honest, if Akila said he mentioned in Maseku, I used to frequent that place as well, where everyone used to be there, taxi's were there, he was a people's person. I wouldn't say he didn't fear people, but he could be with people. I won't say people were afraid of him, but why if he was an enemy and he could say whatever he could say and he was never attacked in public. I feel we didn't get full disclosure of the whole thing, but the family, we are not saying we are opposing amnesty, it is upon this people and their God, we are all human here, we have got our own mistakes that we do upon other people, so their God will give them amnesty, but we will never forgive and forget as the family. It will always be there with us. No money will repay the damage and with that, I don't want to contradict myself any further. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Nqomalo. Mr Majuja?
MR MAJUJA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, we have heard evidence that has been led by the
applicants today and as you have just heard Lorna, we are not saying that we are opposing their application for amnesty, but our problem and that will always remain a problem, that we are not satisfied with the submissions of the applicants today, in particular Akila. I believe that he was not the only person together with the third applicant who were at the scene. Furthermore the way he was contradicting himself when he was submitting his evidence, with regard to the throwing of handgrenades into the house, we heard him, he was clear about it. We used bricks, then we threw in the handgrenades into the house. It is amazing that if somebody is inside the house and sleeping, if you break the window, you couldn't hear that. This is why we are not satisfied with the evidence because I believe that if Sergeant Makhudu couldn't wake up when the window was being broken, it is either he was given sleeping tablets or something else, but I am not sure about that, I am just you know, assuming that that might have happened. Even the fact, even the question that I asked Akila about Lieutenant Le Roux, you know ordering Policemen to go and investigate the explosion, we still have a lot of questions with regard to that. We are not satisfied with that. We thought maybe the applicants would assist us with that particular incident.
But more or less, whatever this Committee decides with regard to the applications by the three applicants, I put that discretion in the Committee's hands and as Lorna has just said, their fate would be decided by the Man up there. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majuja. Ms Mtanga, do you have any submissions?
MS MTANGA: I have no submissions Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any reply?
MR KOOPEDI IN FURTHER ARGUMENT: I must say Chairperson, I have been debating in my mind whether to reply, I will have a very brief reply. Chairperson, I will restrict this to what my learned friend has said, in any event, that is what I have to reply to.
I must say Chairperson, I am mostly disturbed by the manner in which my learned friend for the Makhudu family has approached this matter. He has called a person, not a witness, whom he said that he is calling that person after my address because he didn't want that to be part of the evidence, but in his submission he starts of by referring Chairperson to what this witness said and what this witness has said, revolves around the issue of whether the truth has been told to the Committee.
The person who, I will call her a witness Chairperson for easy reference, the witness believes that there was corroboration
between one of the victims and the applicants. Chairperson, with respect, no such evidence was brought before us and I have no idea why such evidence was not brought before or why wasn't it even put to any of the applicants that they connived with someone. My learned friend also goes on speculating about what could have happened, what may have happened when there is definitely no evidence before this Committee contradicting the evidence that has been given to this Committee. I must stress that my learned friend had an opportunity to deal with those issues, to put his case to the applicants but that was not done.
Be that as it may Chairperson, I will stand by my initial address, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, a last thing, actually what I am saying is that we don't have a problem with, that is why I am putting everything in the hands of the Committee. You see, that is why - that was just my submission, just to put the way the family feels, you see. Because we are convinced that with regard to some of the requirements of the Committee, those have been met, except for only one that we are still in contention, that is the full disclosure. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that then concludes this hearing. We will reserve our decision. And that also Ms Mtanga, brings us to the end of the roll?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it does.
CHAIRPERSON: I would like to before we finally adjourn, just to thank the people who made these hearings possible, the Interpreters who always work so hard, Ms Mtanga, the Evidence Leader who sets up the hearings, plays a big role in that and the Logistics Officer, Elizabeth, our Secretary, Molly, who helps, the Sound Technicians, the Security provided, the caterers and the people who provided the hall, thank you very much and also the legal representatives who have assisted us and the television crew and the media people as well. Everybody involved, thank you very much. We will now adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS
