CHAIRPERSON: Does he need to be sworn in, Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you please rise and give us your full names for the record.
DEON GOUWS: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Gouws, you before this Committee apply for amnesty for your participation in the Nelspruit incident, in which four persons were killed, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You have also applied for amnesty in other matters where you as a member of the South Police, had been involved in, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: In the meantime, is it correct that you have received amnesty for some of these incidents for which you have applied?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: On page 375, I don't know if your number is correct, you might have a numbering of another extract of a - an extract of another bundle of documents before you. I see your numbering is the same as mine, excuse me. On page 85 up to 89, was that an initial application which was drawn up by you before you obtained legal representation?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And this is dated the 9th of December 1996.
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: And after you had obtained legal representation, supplementary particulars were supplied and with regard to the Nelspruit incident - or rather, a brief background with regard to 1991 and 1992 and then from 1992 and further, up to page 98 or excuse me, up to page 97, the Nelspruit incident appears. Is that correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: To kick off, in the initial form on page 88, will you page to that please, at question 10(b) with regard to financial benefits, there you mention: "Reward for the Nelspruit incident".
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct that you have drawn my attention to it that that was incorrect?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: To which incident does that reward refer to?
MR GOUWS: The Carousel incident, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And then I would like to refer you to page 97 of the supplementary application. The supplementary part was drawn up in consultation with your legal representative, Mr Rossouw and at paragraph 10 you said "Not applicable". Did you then during consultation supply supplementary information so that that part could be filled in?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAMEY: And that is why it is not applicable?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: The last page to which you have referred?
MR LAMEY: Page 97, next to 10(d), Chairperson.
Very well. Mr Gouws, during 1992 you were attached to the Murder and Robber} Unit of Pretoria.
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: When did you become part of that unit, can you recall?
MR GOUWS: In approximately '86, Chairperson, 1986.
MR LAMEY: You were previously at the Security Branch Mamelodi.
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Up to when - up to what time were you in Mamelodi?
MR GOUWS: It was actually Security Branch Northern Transvaal. Before I went to Murder and Robbery I was involved there.
MR LAMEY: Until when did you work there?
MR GOUWS: From approximately '85 up to the time I went to Murder and Robbery.
MR LAMEY: Very well. And before that you were with the Special Investigative Unit in Pretoria. What type of investigative unit was this?
MR GOUWS: Unrest related matters nationwide.
MR LAMEY: And the Special Investigative Unit at Pretoria, was that a branching of the Security Branch?
MR GOUWS: We could see it as such, that it was a branching of the Security Branch. We closely worked together.
MR LAMEY: When were you there?
ADV DE JAGER: Excuse me Mr Lamey for interrupting you. Is there anywhere where we could get some fresh air into this building because if we cannot get fresh air in here, then I shall have to leave.
CHAIRPERSON: Please assist me in keeping my colleague here.
MR LAMEY: I don't know why the question is being put to me.
ADV DE JAGER: You don't share that hope, Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: I also share that sentiment, I am very hot as I sit here, I just don't know if I have a solution for it.
Were you with this Special Investigative Unit before you became a member of Murder and Robbery or Security Branch Northern Transvaal?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, Mr Gouws, because of your connection with the Security Branch and despite your joining up with the Murder and Robbery Unit in Pretoria, did you ever as a policeman have a reasonable idea of the political struggle of the past with the parties, the ANC, the PAC on one side and the government/National Party on the other side?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: During this Nelspruit incident, what was your rank?
MR GOUWS: I was a Sergeant, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Who was your commander with Murder and Robbery?
MR GOUWS: At that stage, Capt Geldenhuys was the Acting-Chief.
MR LAMEY: Was he Acting-Chief of the Murder and Robbery Unit of Pretoria?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: To arrive at the particulars - or before I arrive there, ...(intervention)
ADV DE JAGER: He was acting Chief of Murder and Robbery in Pretoria, in Northern Transvaal, where exactly?
MR GOUWS: Pretoria, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Mr Gouws, when you were attached to the Security Police and afterwards at Murder and Robbery, did you know of the existence of Vlakplaas, under the command of Eugene de Kock?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether at some stage with regard to yourself, do you know anything of a meeting where there was cooperation between Murder and Robbery and Vlakplaas?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct, approximately 1991 - I'm not certain if it was in the middle or towards the end, we attended a briefing session, the Murder and Robbery Unit from Pretoria, at Vlakplaas, which was offered by Gen Krappies Engelbrecht.
MR LAMEY: And can you tell us briefly what your recollection is, what during that briefing session was touched upon.
MR GOUWS: At that stage it was a stage when Vlakplaas' activities went over to the criminal and Gen Engelbrecht informed us with regard to the armed struggle which was being fought by several activists.
MR LAMEY: Was there any mention of cooperation between amongst others, Murder and Robbery Unit and Vlakplaas?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct, because mention was specifically made of robberies and we specialised in armed robberies. So the work would have overlapped at some stage.
MR LAMEY: Can you be specific with regard to the robberies?
MR GOUWS: Because of the ANC which would commit these armed robberies in order to obtain money for the ANC as well as the PAC, and then robbers who were being sought may be the same robbers that we were looking for.
MR LAMEY: You are saying in your statement - in your amnesty application statement you say during February 1992 you were contacted by Holtzhausen.
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall, did he contact you directly or along which channels did he go?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, if I recall correctly he came to our office.
MR LAMEY: And from whom did you receive instructions? That's with regard to the first Coin robbery where you were also involved, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: The incident which did not happen. Let us just place that on record beforehand.
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you receive instructions to go along?
MR GOUWS: Yes, as well as Capt Geldenhuys.
MR LAMEY: And what did you understand, what was the information with regard to that action which would be launched?
MR GOUWS: Holtzhausen told me that they would rob a security office in Nelspruit and the people were political activists.
MR LAMEY: With what connection?
MR GOUWS: It would have been with the ANC or the PAC.
MR LAMEY: Can you specifically recall what Holtzhausen said, was it ANC or PAC?
MR GOUWS: No, I cannot recall the exact wording that he used.
MR LAMEY: Did you then indeed go to Nelspruit?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And can you recall names of any other members, whether they be from Vlakplaas or Murder and Robbery, who accompanied you?
MR GOUWS: I can recall Capt Gevers was present and there were members from the Nelspruit Murder and Robbery Unit present as well, whose names I cannot remember right now.
MR LAMEY: Where were these premises, or let me ask you in the following way. I accept you went to Nelspruit and you went to a certain premises, which premises were these?
MR GOUWS: The premises of Coin, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And what was the planning there, what did you have to do there?
MR GOUWS: We would enter the premises of Coin and if the robbers arrived there we would fire shots at them.
MR LAMEY: Did the suspected robbers arrive there?
MR GOUWS: Yes, they did arrive.
MR LAMEY: Do you know where?
MR GOUWS: They were right up close to the premises of Coin. According to my information, I think it was Springbok Security, one of their vehicles was in the vicinity.
MR LAMEY: And what happened then?
MR GOUWS: The robbers then withdrew.
MR LAMEY: Do you know who was the source of the information with regard to these suspected robbers?
MR GOUWS: It was Ben van Zyl, Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Excuse me, did you know it then or do you know it now?
MR GOUWS: No, I knew Ben van Zyl before the Coin incident because I started at Murder and Robbery in '86, so it must have been during '87, because at that stage he was at Brixton Murder and Robbery and the Murder and Robbery Units cooperated very closely.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct that in March 1992 you received a request which eventually came from W/O Holtzhausen?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, directly from Capt Geldenhuys.
MR LAMEY: So you received the request from Capt Geldenhuys?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And what was the request, the essence of it?
MR GOUWS: That we should go to Nelspruit. There were three members from Murder and Robbery.
MR LAMEY: Who was that?
MR GOUWS: It was Capt Geldenhuys, W/O Boshoff. Although I am not entirely certain of him, at some stage he was transferred to Vlakplaas. I don't know whether he was there.
MR LAMEY: Was he at Murder and Robbery Unit in Pretoria?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, and then myself.
MR LAMEY: So you are not certain whether he was attached to Valkplaas or to Murder and Robbery?
MR GOUWS: I'm not sure.
MR LAMEY: And what was the request, according to your understanding, from Capt Geldenhuys?
MR GOUWS: We should assist C10 with a planned robbery.
MR LAMEY: And did you at a stage depart?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: To Nelspruit?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you know at that stage whether this planned robbery was connected to the previous Coin incident?
MR GOUWS: No, I did not have any information to that effect, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: When you departed did you depart alone or did you all drive in one car, or who went along?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly, I don't know whether it was Geldenhuys and I or Boshoff and I, because everybody had his own vehicle. It may be that all of us left in our own vehicles, I'm not certain.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall how long before the incident had taken place did you go to Nelspruit?
MR GOUWS: I think it was the previous day, during the course of the afternoon.
MR LAMEY: You arrived there in the afternoon?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAMEY: Where did you go immediately after your arrival in Nelspruit?
MR GOUWS: I went to the Drumrock Hotel.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall who were all present, with your arrival or after your arrival?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, in my application I have made a list and the names of the members who were there, and those names mean all the people who were involved in the incident.
MR LAMEY: You mention there Mr Klopper, Nortje, de Kock, Holtzhausen, Boshoff, Swart, Gevers, Chait and Hanekom.
MR GOUWS: That's correct, that's a list of names, but at some or other stage I saw these people at the scene, but whether I saw all of them at the Drumrock Hotel, I cannot recall, it was a long time ago and I cannot recall. I know I met Holtzhausen there, he handled the planning session there. I found Col Gene there. I don't know if it was in the foyer or where, but I definitely saw him there.
MR LAMEY: You have now mentioned the planning session, where did this take place and can you recall at what time of the day it had taken place?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, according to my recollection rooms were reserved at the hotel. We were in one of the rooms where a part of the planning session was set out.
MR LAMEY: What came to your knowledge during the planning session?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, that an ambush would take place.
MR LAMEY: When you say "ambush", what do you mean?
MR GOUWS: We would pretend to set up a roadblock, that would be the story afterwards, and we would set up an ambush. The kombi would come underneath the bridge, we would have fired on the kombi and then AK47s and handgrenades would be in the kombi. That's just briefly.
MR LAMEY: With regard to the suspected robbers themselves, did any further aspects come to your knowledge about that?
MR GOUWS: When Holtzhausen mentioned Ben van Zyl's name, I realised that it must be the same people who had earlier wanted to rob Coin in Nelspruit, that it was the same activists.
MR LAMEY: And by whom was that planning session led?
MR GOUWS: By Holtzhausen, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: How did the evening further proceed, after the planning session? As far as you can recall, what was your task, what did you have to do? Let's break it down first. What was your task?
MR GOUWS: To sit up against the embankment. Although that was only when we arrived at the scene that this was explained.
MR LAMEY: Was certain detail given when you arrived the scene?
MR GOUWS: Yes, most of the detail had been sorted out when we arrived at the scene.
MR LAMEY: Maybe I should just take you back to after the planning session or the briefing session at the Drumrock Hotel. What happened afterwards?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, not much, we just waited there for the incident to take place.
MR LAMEY: At what time did you go to the scene where it would happen?
MR GOUWS: I think it was approximately 12 o'clock, I'm not certain, I may incorrect.
MR LAMEY: You arrived at the scene, were any further detailed instructions given?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And what were your instructions?
MR GOUWS: I would sit along with Holtzhausen against an embankment in front and we would fire on the kombi first.
MR LAMEY: Was there a reason why you had to fire first?
MR GOUWS: No, I cannot think of a reason.
MR LAMEY: May I ask you in the following way, some of them said that Holtzhausen would give the signal.
MR GOUWS: Yes, he would fire first, that's correct.
MR GOUWS: Any other arms, were any other arms present except that which you would fire with?
MR GOUWS: There was an AK47.
MR LAMEY: What did you have to do with that?
MR GOUWS: When the kombi came to a stop I had to throw it into the kombi.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether Holtzhausen also had an AK47?
MR GOUWS: Yes, he had one, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You say that you arrived at the scene approximately 12 o'clock.
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you wait there a while?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: How much time had lapsed?
MR GOUWS: It was a long time, more than two hours if I recall correctly.
MR LAMEY: More than two hours?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: And what happened then?
MR GOUWS: There was radio contact between Holtzhausen and Willie Nortje and at a stage ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, was there any planning with regard to Ben van Zyl and the vehicle which he would drive in, that you can recall?
MR GOUWS: He would have driven with the BMW and we should not have fired at him.
MR LAMEY: Would he accompany the kombi?
MR GOUWS: Yes, he would.
MR LAMEY: So you waited there. I interrupted you and you mentioned something of a message.
MR GOUWS: Yes, a radio message that the people were on their way.
MR LAMEY: From whom did this message come?
MR GOUWS: It came from Willie Nortje, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Did you then ready yourself?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: What ensued further?
MR GOUWS: The BMW passed under the bridge, just after that the kombi came past, Holtzhausen opened fire and directly after him I opened fire and when the kombi passed us - because the other persons were alongside, both sides of the road and I stopped shooting because as the kombi had moved people started moving in behind the kombi and I ceased fire because I might have fired on my own people. The kombi came to a stop at some stage ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, what is your recollection, who was also at the scene who shot? May I ask you who all fired?
MR GOUWS: It's difficult to say who fired.
MR LAMEY: No, let me ask you, who was at the scene when shots were fired? Was Capt Geldenhuys there?
MR GOUWS: Let me start from the beginning. Klopper was there, Nortje was not there, Col de Kock was there, Holtzhausen was there, Boshoff was there, Swart was there, Gevers, Chait and Hanekom were there.
MR LAMEY: Do you recall what time Eugene de Kock joined you?
MR GOUWS: If I am not mistaken it was a while before the shooting had started, but I have not certain.
MR LAMEY: Before we continue, did you hear anything with regard to petrol?
MR GOUWS: No.
MR LAMEY: Or handgrenades?
MR GOUWS: I did, along with the AKs I picked up some handgrenades.
MR LAMEY: What would the ideas be with the handgrenades?
MR GOUWS: So that the kombi could explode.
MR LAMEY: Who had the handgrenades?
MR GOUWS: Holtzhausen, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: I have now interrupted you in the logical sequence of the questions. You fired on the kombi, other members fired at the kombi and when they moved into line you had to cease fire otherwise you would hit them.
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: And further?
CHAIRPERSON: You said the kombi stopped at some stage.
MR GOUWS: It came to a standstill, yes.
MR LAMEY: How many shots did you fire?
MR GOUWS: I emptied a magazine approximately, it would be more-or-less 30 R5 rounds.
MR LAMEY: And can you recall what happened to the occupants of that kombi?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, at that stage I was some way behind in the road. I did hear some groans and at some stage I saw somebody hanging out on the left-hand side in front of the kombi. I don't know, but I think that was after the kombi had caught alight.
MR LAMEY: Did you see how the kombi caught fire?
MR GOUWS: No, all I did was I ran to the kombi so that I could throw the AK into the kombi and I withdrew.
MR LAMEY: Was the kombi already burning when you threw the handgrenade in or ...? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR GOUWS: No, that was before that.
MR LAMEY: So you ran up to the kombi, you threw in the AK and you came back?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's while Holtzhausen took the AK in his possession and fired shots to the outside, from the inside of the kombi.
MR LAMEY: Did you see that?
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you see what was done with the handgrendes?
MR GOUWS: These were also thrown into the kombi by Holtzhausen.
MR LAMEY: You mention in your statement that at some stage petrol was sprinkled.
MR GOUWS: Yes, but I don't know who did this.
MR LAMEY: Is this something that you heard or is it something that you saw at the scene?
MR GOUWS: I saw the petrol containers, but I did not see who splashed petrol on the vehicle.
MR LAMEY: What ensued?
MR GOUWS: According to my recollection everything happened very quickly. The kombi was then set alight. Directly afterwards to explosions took place.
MR LAMEY: Do you have personal knowledge as to what happened further with regard to the persons who were not in the minibus?
MR GOUWS: No, I did not know, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You did not see anything at the scene with regard to that or what happened further.
MR GOUWS: Not at all, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Did you hear afterwards about it?
MR GOUWS: Yes, Chairperson, afterwards I heard that there was a fifth man.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that will not assist us.
MR LAMEY: As it please you, Chairperson.
You were requested at some stage to depose a statement in a post-mortem inquest.
MR GOUWS: That's correct.
MR LAMEY: On whose request was this, can you recall? Or how did it happen?
MR GOUWS: With any shooting incident one has to make a statement, but at some stage Gen Engelbrecht went through our statements and arranged a correction here and there and afterwards it was sent to head office.
MR LAMEY: Was the true version put in the post-mortem inquest, that it was an ambush, or were any other proposals made?
MR GOUWS: No, it was said a roadblock and it was said that the occupants fired upon us and we returned fire in order to protect our own lives.
MR LAMEY: Now with reference to the political objective, I just want to refer you to page 97. Do you confirm this as you understood it at that time?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: There's just another aspect that I want to question you about. Nevermind, I will leave it at that. With regard to the order and approval, you received your order directly from Capt Geldenhuys.
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: With regard to the order and approval, you received your order directly from Capt Geldenhuys.
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: I would just like to ask you at this point, how would you describe it, was this - or by who would you say was this action initiated?
MR GOUWS: By C10.
MR LAMEY: And according to your knowledge, who was the commander of C10 at that stage?
MR GOUWS: Well it was Col de Kock, but I would not say that he issued orders at the scene, although he was in command of Vlakplaas at that stage.
MR LAMEY: Very well. Who issued orders at the scene?
MR GOUWS: It was between Geldenhuys and Holtzhausen.
MR LAMEY: And the orders which were issued by Holtzhausen, from whom did you accept that these orders came? Holtzhausen was another member of C10.
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct. Well he must have obtained permission from Mr de Kock, it was his operation, so he must have had his own orders.
CHAIRPERSON: You're speculating, you did not have direct knowledge?
MR GOUWS: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Then don't speculate, just tell us what you know, the other things won't help us whatsoever.
MR LAMEY: What I want to ask you is whether you did indeed know that Holtzhausen was a subordinate to Mr de Kock.
MR GOUWS: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. That is the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey.
MR LAMEY: Would this be an appropriate time for the adjournment?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would. We have come to the end of the day, we will adjourn now and reconvene tomorrow morning here at nine thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
