MR BOOYENS: Booyens on record, Mr Chairman, I call Mr Dave Baker.
MR SIBANYONI: Afrikaans or English speaking?
MR BAKER: English, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Can you put your names on record.
ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I've got available - unfortunately at one stage my attorney has handed to the Members of the Amnesty Committee, the Witness Protection Unit, copies of Schedule 7 and the ones that the Committee has got has got a few typographical errors in it. The content is substantially the same, I've just got some improved copies of Schedule 7, which appears at page 254, available. May I ask leave to hand that up. We'll make them available to my colleagues as well.
Mr Baker, the body of your amnesty application, including the initial hand-written copy, starts at page 231 of the volume, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And then subsequent to that, from page 238 it basically just sets out your history, your beliefs etc., etc., is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And also at page 252, the broader political objectives etc., is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm that as being correct?
MR BAKER: I do so, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Now take Schedule 7 of the improved document in front of you. We are dealing with the death of Mr Moses Ntehelang, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: In giving the details you tell the Committee about an operation in Swaziland where all the white members have been to and this operation did not succeed, you didn't get what you wanted, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: We have heard that the members then drove back, shall we call it "pub-crawling", stopping at various places and having some drinks, would you confirm that? It's not in the document here.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Very well. And on your return to Vlakplaas, the members went into the canteen, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: At some stage when you were in the canteen, what did you observe, Mr Baker?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I observed - the deceased came in and went to speak to Col de Kock inside the canteen, where he and some of the other members were. I then heard some raised voices and the assault on the deceased commenced. I was not aware of the reason for the assault at that stage.
MR BOOYENS: I see. And what did you do, Mr Baker?
MR BAKER: When the assault commenced I did not have anything to do with what was happening and I walked out of the canteen.
MR BOOYENS: Did you see anybody else outside?
MR BAKER: Outside I noticed Capt Bellingan, who had also been in the canteen earlier, outside the canteen.
MR BOOYENS: Now did you at all return to the canteen that evening?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Did you go home then? Mr Baker, I think you have said it already, but why did you walk out of the canteen at that stage?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we'd all been drinking and I didn't feel that the canteen was the place ...(indistinct) the time to question people.
MR BOOYENS: I see. So you didn't want to have anything to do with what was going on?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: What you saw commencing was an assault, somebody was being hit, why didn't you interfere, why didn't you go and speak to the people?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't think it was in my place to interfere at that stage.
MR BOOYENS: And at that stage obviously, you didn't know that this would result in the death of the man, is that correct? When you walked out.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Now subsequently you heard that the deceased had died, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: You also heard that Mr Ras had taken the body away.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Now this is not mentioned in your application, but during consultations with me, did I mention to you that Mr de Kock mentioned yesterday that he instructed you to open a missing persons file, something of that nature?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman, when it was mentioned to me it was my recollection that I had to do that.
MR BOOYENS: At the time when you were giving your attorney instructions about the drafting of this, or did that slip your memory?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And now Mr Baker, you also had a duty as a policeman, at least theoretically, to (a) prevent crime and to (b) report crimes that came to your knowledge. In this instance you did not do so, why not?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman. There was a perceived fear amongst us that anybody who spoke of irregularities at the farm, might endanger their own life in the process.
MR BOOYENS: And in any case, if this matter was reported and so on - we heard from Mr de Kock yesterday, that even if reported, the probabilities were that it would have been covered up. Do you agree with that?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And even if - but assuming the theoretical possibility that an investigation did get off the ground, what would the effect of that have been on the entire Vlakplaas operation? Let's say the Moses Ntehelang thing went through the regular channels like it was supposed to and it ended up in a court of law as a murder/culpable homicide case, what would the effect of that have been in your opinion?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, Vlakplaas operations would have come to an end and the role which we were playing in the furtherance of State security would have been terminated and we felt that this would have fell into the hands of the ANC, because this Counter-Insurgency Unit at that stage was one of the best in the country.
MR BOOYENS: Would it also be correct, Mr Baker, to say that this was a general attitude about not talking about what happens at Vlakplaas, it wasn't only pertaining to this incident. Vlakplaas - Mr de Kock said yesterday the tradition was, Vlakplaas members were simply not expected to talk about what happens at Vlakplaas, incidents that happened at Vlakplaas and so on. This was a sort of a general rule, you just don't talk and you don't report if any irregularities happen.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Doesn't it go a lot wider than that, Mr Baker? We have heard so much evidence about operations by Vlakplaas all over the country, totally illegal operations, assassinations, murders and Vlakplaas never talked, they thought this was their duty, they were performing their duty to safeguard the country and although they knew as policemen, that a lot of the things they were doing were illegal, it was part of their function and you didn't report anything. It wasn't just incidents at Vlakplaas you didn't report.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman, we didn't talk about anything that Vlakplaas Unit did as a whole.
MR BOOYENS: And do you confirm the balance of your amnesty application, the rest of your amnesty application?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible). Right.
ADV SANDI: Mr Baker had finished his evidence-in-chief, not so?
MR BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: I think I've got to commence cross-examination, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on record.
Mr Baker, you were second-in-command at Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: And what was your rank at the time of this incident?
MR BAKER: I was a Captain, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Now you heard the evidence of Mr Bosch, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: That you had a counter-intelligence ability at Vlakplaas.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: And was he in charge of that?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Why in your opinion, was that necessary, Mr Baker?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we were working with people who had turned from their previous ideologies, there's always the perceived and real problem of them turning again and we had to monitor their progress to see that they were not busy playing double roles, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Now did the information that was picked up - well we heard Mr Bosch's evidence that they installed listening devices at the two telephones that were used by the askaris, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: And did you have access to those recordings, did you listen to them?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman, I did not listen to them.
MR HATTINGH: And did you read the transcripts, the translated transcripts?
MR BAKER: On occasion, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Yes. As far as Mr Ntehelang is concerned, had you received any information about the possibility that he might have been in the process of changing allegiance?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman, we were starting we disciplinary problems with him, at times he wouldn't turn up for work.
CHAIRPERSON: Did that indicate that he was changing or that he was just losing interest?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I think at that stage his disciplinary problems - he was well disciplined initially and this was contrary to his normal behaviour, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Were you ever a group leader of groups of askaris that were sent out into various regions?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I usually used to go and visit the groups, I was never myself a group leader.
MR HATTINGH: Right. So you didn't have as much personal contact with the askaris as the group leaders did?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, just two questions.
Mr Baker, when you drew this second supplement, was it just to make it easier or were there certain amendments made to your original amnesty application?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, there were just spelling errors and that type of thing.
MR CORNELIUS: Now I refer you to page 255 of your original amnesty application. In the second paragraph you say
"As I walked out I noticed Capt Bellingan who had also been in the canteen early on, walking towards his car."
Do you see that?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR CORNELIUS: But I note on the application you handed in, on page 18 you omit saying
"... walking towards his car."
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, that was just a ...
MR CORNELIUS: Did he go and fetch anything in his car or don't you know?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure, I think he left at that stage, Mr Chairman.
MR CORNELIUS: Because there's evidence earlier on that Mr Bellingan had fetched the tube which was used to tube Mr Ntehelang.
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't know anything about that.
MR CORNELIUS: I see. Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chair. Jansen on record, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: When did you eventually leave Vlakplaas on that night?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is when I left the canteen. I think I had left just after that.
MR SIBANYONI: Approximately what was the time?
MR BAKER: I'm not sure, Mr Chairman, I have no recollection of the time that this incident happened.
MR SIBANYONI: Did you leave alone or were there any members of Vlakplaas who also left?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I left in my own vehicle.
MR CORNELIUS: At what stage - where was the deceased by that time when you left the farm?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, when I left the canteen he was still in the canteen.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions.
ADV SANDI: Did you know anything about the family of the deceased?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recollect his family stayed somewhere in the Kuruman area.
ADV SANDI: Did you personally have any contact with them?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
ADV SANDI: Do you know if anyone within the ranks of the Security Police was in contact with the family, the mother for example?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, the members stationed at Kuruman Security Branch had contact with the family.
ADV SANDI: Did you have contact with the Security Police at Kuruman?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there any reason why you didn't go home earlier?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we were sitting drinking in the canteen at that stage and as far as I can recall, we'd all been told to stay on the farm.
CHAIRPERSON: Who by?
MR BAKER: By Col de Kock, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you can recall, Col de Kock had told you all to stay on the farm, that is after your return from a three day expedition to Swaziland and the Eastern Transvaal?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he give any reason?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is why you didn't go home?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: When you - at the moment you left, did you tell him that you're now leaving?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman, I went out of the canteen and then I went to my car and left.
MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that you could then leave?
MR BAKER: Could you please repeat that?
MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that it was then time for you, that you can then leave? Because previously you had been requested to be on the farm.
MR BAKER: No, I just decided then that I wanted to leave.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to get away from this?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as you were concerned, this was a totally unjustified incident?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman yes, I didn't regard it as being the time or the place.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Oh sorry.
MR BOOYENS: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR BOOYENS: I call as my next witness, Mr Bellingan.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that, can I raise one point, which I was going to raise before this witness has now - I meant to ask to recall Mr Ras, because I understand from his statement that he also was told that he must stay at Vlakplaas. And also to recall the witness who gave evidence yesterday, and I'm afraid at the moment I haven't checked his name, who in the course of his evidence said he had a function at home that night and wanted to ...(intervention)
MR ROSSOUW: It is Snyders in fact, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: ... that he was told by Mr de Kock not to go. We've now had the third witness on that point. Is it necessary to recall those two applicants or do you gentlemen all accept that that is what they have said in their statements? Mr Hattingh?
MR HATTINGH: We're prepared to accept what they said in their statements, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well then, I don't think it will be ...(intervention)
MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, if you could just refer me to the exact passage which you're referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: The top of page 265.
"... gevra of ons verskoon kan word. Capt du Plessis mentioned that he had to complete another essay for his studies. De Kock refused."
MR JANSEN: Ja, that's the statement of Snyders.
CHAIRPERSON: Snyders, yes. And Ras is at - perhaps it wasn't Ras. No, it's not Ras, sorry.
MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, if you were referring to a passage or something, an incident prior or during the assault of Ntehelang, you must remember that Ras was at that stage not there, he only arrived at the farm after the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: After the assault, yes.
MR JANSEN: So it could only have been at that stage and I don't think there's anything to that effect.
CHAIRPERSON: No, this wasn't Ras - well we'll leave it, we've got Snyders.
MR JANSEN: Yes.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Chairperson, was it not Mr Bosch who said he didn't return with the group, but he was told that he should join the group at Vlakplaas?
CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll leave it there.
