ON RESUMPTION
MR STEENKAMP: Madam Chair, if I may be allowed to interrupt just quickly? Madam Chair, Mr Ramawele is present here, he is representing Mr Nofomela. Just for the record purposes Madam Chair, I've handed the full set of the documents in relation to this hearing to Mr Ramawele for preparation. I've also handed him a transcript of the evidence that was led where there was reference to this matter by the testimony of Mr Nofomela. That's as far as I can take it. Thank you Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramawele, is it correct that you'll be representing Mr Nofomela in relation to this incident being the killing of Mr Mngomezulu?
MR RAMAWELE: Thanks Chair, yes I confirm that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR WILLIAMS: Madam Chair, I can just state that I've been requested to lead Mr Mbelo next.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR WILLIAMS: I think the idea would have been for Mr Schoon's evidence to be led and thereafter Mr Beeslaar but I think both the counsel requested that someone else be led before the two of them?
CHAIRPERSON: And you've acceded to their request?
MR WILLIAMS: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to lead Mr Mbelo.
MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: What language would he be testifying in?
MR WILLIAMS: Tswana.
THAPELO JOHANNES MBELO: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Madam Chair. Madam Chair, before I start I just want to point out to the Committee that the wrong affidavit was inserted in this bundle of documents. I believe it was inadvertently put in here by the evidence leader. I've pointed that out to the evidence analyst and I believe that everyone here is sitting with the correct supplementary affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes we do have the correct affidavit.
MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Madam Chair.
Mr Mbelo, do you confirm that you apply for amnesty with regard to this Mngomezulu incident?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Do you confirm your application contained on pages 51 to page 59 as well as the supplementary affidavit?
MR MBELO: I do Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Mbelo, I want to ask you, before you filled in your application for amnesty did you discuss this particular incident with any of the people that were involved in this incident?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Do you know of anyone that was charged with the murder of Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson, I know nobody who was charged.
MR WILLIAMS: Did you ever testify about this particular incident before any committee or before any court?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Mbelo, do you have a very clear recollection of the events pertaining to this matter?
CHAIRPERSON: They have a problem.
MR MBELO: My recollection is not that clear Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Mbelo, I see in your supplementary affidavit you state that Warrant Officer Nortje was also involved in this incident but it seems from the statements and the testimony of the other applicants here that he was in fact not involved. Would you accept that he was not involved in this incident?
MR MBELO: I do, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Can you explain to the Committee why you included his name in your statement?
MR MBELO: I was not able to remember at this instant correctly and the first name that came to my mind was this person because I worked with him for many years.
MR WILLIAMS: But do you accept that you are wrong with regard to him?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: You also state in your supplementary statement that this incident occurred during the course of 1985 but you've seen the application of someone else who said that this couldn't have occurred in 1985 and in fact it occurred in 1986. Would you concede that you could be making a mistake with regard to the date as well?
MR MBELO: Correct Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Mbelo, from your application it is clear that after Mr Mngomezulu was abducted that he was only taken to one house or to one base and he was interrogated and assaulted there but it seems from the testimony of the other applicants and also from their statements that he was in fact taken to two houses or to two places where he was interrogated and assaulted. What did your response be with regard to that?
MR MBELO: I would not dispute the statement of other applicants as I've already stated that my recollection was not clear in this regard.
MR WILLIAMS: So would you then concede that it is possible or in fact that Mr Mngomezulu was in fact taken to two places where he was interrogated?
MR MBELO: I would not dispute that, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Did you personally participate in the kidnapping of Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: I did Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: In paragraph 15 of your affidavit you state that yourself, Mr Nofomela, Warrant Officer Koole, Moses Nsimande travelled with a kombi to Swaziland. Would you accept that other people were also with when you went to Swaziland to capture Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: I would agree Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: In fact in paragraph 12 of your statement you say that these gentlemen and some other members whose names escape you were with but it isn't very clear that these other people were also with when the actual abduction took place but you confirm that they could have been with?
MR MBELO: I do Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Did you personally participate in the assaults on Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Can you explain to the Honourable Committee what was the nature of your participation?
MR MBELO: I slapped him with an open hand on the chest and at the back.
MR WILLIAMS: Can you also explain to the Committee where did you assault him, not relative to his body but in which vicinity, in which place did you assault him?
MR MBELO: We started assaulting him when we abducted him at his house because he didn't want to go with us and then again at the house where he was interrogated.
MR WILLIAMS: It seems also that it is clear that you don't have a recollection that he was in fact assaulted at two different places, the one being the house at Piet Retief and the other one being a farm, Leeuspoort I think. Is it possible that you could have participated in the assaults at both houses or at both places?
MR MBELO: That is possible, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Now did you use any weapons to assault Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: We've heard testimony that inter alia a wet bag was used, a stick was used and a baton was used to assault Mr Mngomezulu. Do you have any recollection of this?
MR MBELO: Yes I know about the wet bag but I don't about the stick and the baton, I'm not able to remember the two.
MR WILLIAMS: But is it possible that he could have been assaulted with these weapons but that you simply can't remember or recall this?
MR MBELO: It is possible that those things were used but not in my presence.
MR WILLIAMS: Was Mr Mngomezulu ever blindfolded in your presence?
MR MBELO: We blindfolded him at the time when we abducted him at his house in Swaziland.
MR WILLIAMS: And at the places where he was assaulted did Mr de Kock ever arrive there according to you, or according to your recollection?
MR MBELO: Not in my recollection, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Committee how did you get involved in this particular mission?
MR MBELO: I was one of the members who were deployed together with the group which went to Eastern Transvaal, that is in Mpumalanga area. I was one of the co-workers.
MR WILLIAMS: Did anyone give you this instruction to go and abduct Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: Our commander is the one who instructed us to do that.
MR WILLIAMS: And you accept that your immediate commander wasn't Warrant Officer Nortje but in fact Mr Paul van Dyk?
CHAIRPERSON: Won't you allow him to, without putting words into his mouth, ask him who is commander was? That's not common cause.
MR WILLIAMS: Sorry, sorry. Yes, can you just tell - thank you Madam Chair.
Can you tell the Committee who your commander was, who your immediate commander was?
MR MBELO: According to the testimony I heard this morning, it is Paul van Dyk.
CHAIRPERSON: We don't want you to answer a question on the basis of the evidence you've heard this morning, we want to know who was your commander, that's something within your personal knowledge, it resides with you it's not dependant on the evidence you've heard?
MR MBELO: As I've already stated I forgot who was my commander.
MR WILLIAMS: If someone testified here before this Committee that he in fact gave the order that you should participate in this mission would you deny or dispute that?
MR MBELO: I would not dispute that fact, Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: In your statement you also said that and I think you seem to be the only one who states that Mr Mngomezulu was placed in cast iron chains. Can you enlighten the Committee more about this?
MR MBELO: From the house where we found him or at the place where he was interrogated he was leg cuffed with the chains which are used to ordinarily used when prisoners are taken to court.
MR WILLIAMS: Could Mr Mngomezulu move freely from one place to another place or even to the toilet for that matter?
MR MBELO: No person was able to do that, he could only do that with an assistance from another person.
MR WILLIAMS: And according to your recollection how many days did you spend in the presence of Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: According to my recollection it may be two to three days.
MR WILLIAMS: Were you present when he was eventually killed?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Did you know that there were plans or was it ever discussed in your presence that there were plans to kill Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Mbelo, you've been before this incident, you've been based at Vlakplaas for a few years and based on your experience did you subjective foresee the possibility that if a captured person did not co-operate to the satisfaction of the handlers or the people who were in charge of the scene, then under those circumstances he could be killed?
MR MBELO: Correct Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: And did you in fact foresee the possibility that that could not be excluded in this particular instance?
MR MBELO: Correct Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: And is it correct that you're then also amending application to apply for murder for this particular incident?
MR MBELO: I make an application for abduction and for assault.
MR WILLIAMS: Now Mr Mbelo, the Committee understand that you were not present when Mr Mngomezulu was killed or that you had no part in the discussions when the plans to kill him, the Committee understand that and maybe it's purely a matter or technical legal argument at the end of the day but is it correct that you're also applying for murder just to cover you in the event of future or things which can happen in future?
MR MBELO: Correct Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Did you ever receive any money for this particular incident or any reward?
MR MBELO: No Chairperson.
MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Williams. Mr Hattingh?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Mbelo, you gave evidence against Mr de Kock at his criminal trial, is that correct?
MR MBELO: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: That was in connection with the Maponya incident, correct?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Now at the time of the abduction of Mr Mngomezulu, Mr de Kock was your commander at Vlakplaas, is that correct?
MR MBELO: Correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: He was a very dynamic and strict commander, is that correct?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Now when you were sent to the Piet Retief area was that one of your normal deployments? You went there for a period of about three weeks together with other Black members including askaris of Vlakplaas and under the command of a White policeman, is that correct?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And your recollection is a bit faulty as to whom your commander for that specific period was, you seemed to think at one stage that it was Mr Nortje but you now accept that it must have been Mr van Dyk, is that correct?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: If Mr de Kock had been present at the time when Mr Mngomezulu was abducted and interrogated no doubt he would have taken charge of the operation, not so?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And you would have recalled the fact that he had been there and that he had taken charge of the operation?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: You have no recollection whatsoever of Mr de Kock ever being present during the time that you were in Piet Retief in connection with the abduction of Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson, I don't remember.
MR HATTINGH: Mr Mbelo, I would just like to read to you a passage from the affidavit of Mr Mgadi at page 19 of his supplementary affidavit. Perhaps I should start at the foot of page 18, paragraph 35. He states there that the arrested person was interrogated by Van Dyk and others
"I recall that Mogai was also busy with the interrogation. I thought that he was the main interrogator."
Was that your impression as well?
MR MBELO: I don't remember clearly, Chairperson, but I would not dispute what he is saying.
MR HATTINGH: Now the interrogation of Mr Mngomezulu took place over a period of some days, is that correct? Two to three days it would seem?
MR MBELO: In terms of my recollection, Chairperson, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Were you present throughout or did you at some stage leave the room or the area where he was being interrogated?
MR MBELO: There are times we would leave to town and go and buy things because we were many there.
MR HATTINGH: When you talk about town are you referring to Piet Retief or to Josini or both?
MR MBELO: I'm talking about Piet Retief, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Yes and did you travel to Piet Retief by car?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: If you were told the place where Mr Mngomezulu was re-interrogated was some 20 kilometres away from Piet Retief would you agree with that?
MR MBELO: It is possible, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, so you were away for quite a long time on occasion?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh. Mr Du Plessis?
MR DU PLESSIS: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: I've got no questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?
MR PRINSLOO: I've got no questions thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?
MR NEL: Thank you Chair, I've got no questions
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramawele?
MR RAMAWELE: I've got no questions, thank you Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kgasi?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KGASI: Thank you Madam Chair.
Mr Mbelo, I'm only interested in the time when you were told to leave. When you last saw Mr Mngomezulu what was his state?
MR MBELO: I don't know his state of his health but we left him alive.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to know the extent of injuries if there were any?
MR KGASI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That he had sustained?
MR KGASI: Yes Madam Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: When you left Mr Mbelo, was Mr Mngomezulu in a condition which you could describe as having been severely beaten?
MR MBELO: I did not observe the injuries when we left for the last time.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kgasi?
MR KGASI: So you could not say with certainty whether he suffered severe injuries as a result of the torture that was inflicted on him?
MR MBELO: That is correct, Chairperson, I'm not able to explain.
MR KGASI: And during - you have testified that you personally took part in the assault, that you slapped him with an open hand on his chest and back, is that so?
MR MBELO: Correct Chairperson.
MR KGASI: And what about the other members?
MR MBELO: I don't remember who did what to him during the assault, I don't remember well who did what to him.
MR KGASI: Now tell me Mr Mbelo, who ordered you to leave the scene where Mr Mngomezulu was interrogated?
MR MBELO: That is our immediate commander who was responsible at that particular time.
MR KGASI: And it's your testimony that you do not recall who that commander was?
MR MBELO: Correct, Chairperson.
MR KGASI: And at that time when you were ordered to leave you did not observe the state of Mr Mngomezulu?
MR MBELO: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kgasi, isn't it his evidence that he could not see any obvious injuries?
MR KGASI: It is your honour.
Out of curiosity, Mr Mbelo, was he alive, conscious or unconscious?
MR MBELO: We left him alive the last time when we left him.
MR KGASI: Thank you Mr Mbelo. Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KGASI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kgasi. Mr Steenkamp?
MR STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Madam Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: No questions, thank you Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?
ADV MOTATA: No questions Madam Chair, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MOTATA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbelo, you are excused as a witness.
MR MBELO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, I didn't come back to you, there was nothing for you to re-examine on.
MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Madam Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED
