MS MAKHUBELE: I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you were waiting for me. I was trying to confirm with Mr Maseko. He is not prepared to give evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you need a little more time?
MS MAKHUBELE: I think I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you let us know when you're ready?
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson.
Thank you Chairperson for the indulgence. Mr Maseko will give evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: He will?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You're persuasive.
MS MAKHUBELE: Sorry Mr Sibanyoni, before we proceed, can I just place on record that his real name is Don Sipho Mashele.
MR SIBANYONI: Don Sipho Mashele?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, this Ben Maseko was the travelling name then.
DON SIPHO MASHELE aka BEN MASEKO: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you.
Mr Mashele, you have heard the evidence of Mr Moruti Noosi. I want you to particularly deal with the assault on you by him. In his application and evidence before this court he says there's one, he is applying for amnesty in respect of one incident where he hit you. What's your comment on that? Was it one incident or several incidents? Can you tell us about the incidents?
MR MASHELE: Well there were several incidents where he particularly, alone, interrogated me persistently and hit me in most of those occasions. I recall one incident when he insinuated that when a sick person, when I knocked at the door at night for a sick person and they find out and they know there is a sick person because we tried everything for a person to revive that person who had fits and we were failing. So he called that person the medico, he was in charge of the camp there. He called the medico and they went and looked after this person and later on they brought him back. He had not fully recovered, this person, he was still in a daze. And then, immediately after that, I was called out where him, Mountain and Ronnie, Ronnie was the medico, he in particular had a pistol and he hit me persistently with a pistol. Well, his evidence that he did not remember other incidents where he hit me, it's not true because he - in particular this incident he must remember because he emptied the - he took out the magazine and emptied the gun and hit me with the pistol.
MS MAKHUBELE: Was this medico incident the first incident where he hit you?
MR MASHELE: No, it was one of the many occasions where he hit me.
MS MAKHUBELE: The first one being which one?
MR MASHELE: The interrogation known the 24th September 1981.
MS MAKHUBELE: How did he hit you in this first incident?
MR MASHELE: In the first incident he in particular, he hit me with a pistol again, that night and he insisted that until he had what he wanted, he wanted to hear from me, he would not stop.
MS MAKHUBELE: So you said, you keep on referring to him in particular which means that you're only referring to how he assaulted you but you were assaulted by other people too in this say, the first occasion?
MR MASHELE: Yes, it's true.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who were in his company?
MR MASHELE: It was Nusi, it was Mashego's son, I think, I don't remember his name, what he was called then. That's why I was saying Stanley and another guy from Klipspruit but well, I forget his name.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you sustain injuries in the first incident when you were hit?
MR MASHELE: Especially that night, I could not eat for several days after that interrogation and he knows about it, I was given a special diet to recuperate.
MS MAKHUBELE: The nature of the injuries you sustained ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why couldn't you eat?
MR MASHELE: My whole body was sore, my jaws were like broken. I could not, you know, move my jaws easily.
MS MAKHUBELE: You exhibited the scars that you said you sustained, from the injuries you sustained. On which particular incident did you sustain the injuries say that resulted in you losing sight of your eye and your nostril being broken and cuts on your head?
MR MASHELE: The eye was swollen from the first day when I was interrogated, the first day that I went into that camp but I could not see much difference as to the severity of the injury that I had suffered on the eye. But after the incident of the night when he hit me with a pistol, for that epileptic case, I immediately saw that my eye was gone now.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did these incidents follow each other? How far apart were they?
MR MASHELE: Like four years apart.
CHAIRPERSON: Four years?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MS MAKHUBELE: You mean the first one, the interrogation was on the 24th September 1981?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MS MAKHUBELE: And the incident where you were hit because of an epileptic person had happened four years later which would be in 1985?
MR MASHELE: That's true.
MS MAKHUBELE: So between '81 and '85 your eye had been injured but you could still see?
MR MASHELE: Yes. Even now I can see, I can drive with my eye without glasses. The only problem is that I can't read.
MS MAKHUBELE: So it's not that you have lost sight but then your vision has been affected?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you been to a doctor for this?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And what has he prescribed?
MR MASHELE: I have since applied for a disability with the military pensions which I'm receiving even now from the doctor's observation of my eye or examination of my eye.
MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know what blow caused your eye to be swollen? Isn't it you being assaulted by four people? A blow administered by which person of the four?
MR MASHELE: Yes, it's because of the hitting with the butt that really damaged my left eye.
MS MAKHUBELE: By who?
MR MASHELE: By Stanley.
MS MAKHUBELE: And the injury on your nostril? What caused it?
MR MASHELE: That as well came from the butt beating.
MS MAKHUBELE: By who?
MR MASHELE: By Stanley.
MS MAKHUBELE: When you say Stanley and you nod the head what ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Is Stanley the applicant sitting over there?
MR MASHELE: Yes. Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, refer to him as the applicant.
MR MASHELE: By the applicant, yes.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. Was this also on the first occasion? The first assault? The nostril?
MR MASHELE: That I also noticed the first day because it bled throughout but since you were all by yourself in solitary confinement you could not even look at a mirror or whatever.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you go for medical treatment? Apparently there was a medical centre in that camp?
MR MASHELE: Yes, on countless occasions I went to the medical treatment and the only thing that we used to get there were pain killers.
MS MAKHUBELE: The injuries on your head, which occasion did you get them? The first of the second incident?
MR MASHELE: The first incident.
MS MAKHUBELE: And what caused them?
MR MASHELE: The hitting with all sorts of things, the sticks, the butts, the boots, the trampling upon, everything.
MS MAKHUBELE: You heard the applicant, he says that the occasion on which he hit you, he had been called because you were uncooperative and you wanted to charge at the guards. Did this ever happen where you were labelled, say problematic?
MR MASHELE: That's not true. Anybody could give evidence to my behaviour in that camp. I was the most, you know, co-operative person at that camp because I felt that this would be solved though it took so much long.
MS MAKHUBELE: You also heard that he left the camp in, if I'm not mistaken, I speak under correction, 1986 and then you left the camp in 1989. Is this correct? '88 or '89?
MR MASHELE: '88.
MS MAKHUBELE: But then the point is he left you in the camp?
MR MASHELE: Yes it's true.
MS MAKHUBELE: After he left were you assaulted by any other person between '86 and '88?
MR MASHELE: Yes, there were several occasions of assault but those were administered in a way that - just buttocks, you were beaten on the buttocks.
MS MAKHUBELE: You are certain that the injuries you exhibited, you sustained them by beatings by him and not after he left?
MR MASHELE: Yes I'm certain.
MS MAKHUBELE: You also - rather, he also mentioned when he was - when the Panel sought clarification on the issue of apology, whether he has apologised to you or not and he said that you approached him and sought an apology, is this correct?
MR MASHELE: It's true.
MS MAKHUBELE: Under what circumstances?
MR MASHELE: We met at Shell House, then called Shell House, now Luthuli House. I met him, I asked him what he did there because I'm fully convinced it was not motivated by any good intentions, that he must apologise to me for that and this was done seriously because I wanted him to take an opportunity then to apologise to me.
MS MAKHUBELE: Which year was it, if I may ask?
MR MASHELE: It was around '94/'95.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes and what was his response?
MR MASHELE: He never apologised and moved away from me. Turned his back against me.
MS MAKHUBELE: You also gave me instructions which I put to him during cross-examination that he knows - that he cannot say he doesn't know your whereabouts. In fact you work in the same organisation and he denied it. Can you clarify this?
MR MASHELE: It's true. I met him on maybe two or three occasions at the general practitioner, which is my practitioner, and you know, this thing is straining our relationship, especially when we meet because he just looks at me and he doesn't care. You see, he doesn't want to, know like, extend, you know, even a smile, to show that I recognise you, you see? And recently we met at a funeral of Dr Haga, we used to call him Dr Haga, he also you know, exhibited the same - I don't know whether to call it arrogance or what.
MS MAKHUBELE: But what I want, I'm particularly interested in, does he know where you work?
MR MASHELE: Yes he does.
MS MAKHUBELE: To an extent that he would have say given the Commission your contact details?
MR MASHELE: Yes he does.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you work together?
MR MASHELE: Well he is in the government structure, I mean the ANC, with the MK veterans. He always comes to Shell House, well not always, occasionally comes to Shell House, he knows I'm there and I don't know why he denies that. He should have gave an effort at finding out where I am.
MS MAKHUBELE: You said that because you are convinced that when he assaulted you it was not for good intentions. What do you mean because he says that he, as a person in authority then, he had to instil discipline and order in the camp. What's your opinion on this? Are you saying he was not - it was not his duty to do that?
MR MASHELE: The applicant had authority in the camp and the warders, they used to do their punishments to the occupants of that camp without any - there was no reason for them to go and even report any case of that nature because they used to mete out the punishment then and there by themselves. So that incident is not there, I don't know why he even mentions an incident when there are several others that he in particular was doing the assault on.
MS MAKHUBELE: Are you saying if you had been problematic, it's the warders who should have dealt with it and not him?
MR MASHELE: Exactly.
MS MAKHUBELE: Evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Maseko, I hope you don't mind us calling you Maseko because I've just learnt that you are Mashele.
Mr Maseko, maybe let's start with this incident where you say you had reported that there was a case of an epileptic person. After this person had been attended to you say that you were - I need to understand what happened to you. You mentioned certain names which would include Mountain and Ronnie. What did they do to you, these people?
MR MASHELE: I was called there, he was the highest authority in that meeting. He said that, he insinuated that I was giving a chance for this guy to bolt from the camps because it was midnight and when I knocked and asked that they should attend to him because he was actually an epileptic and a common thing which they knew but when the insinuation came that I was making ways for him to bolt, you see, I don't know what they meant.
MR KOOPEDI: And how were you assaulted on this occasion?
MR MASHELE: He assaulted me first with the butt and I was dazed, completely dazed and after that I found myself on the floor being beaten by all of them.
MR KOOPEDI: And where did he hit you this time with the butt?
MR MASHELE: He hit me right on the slap of the left side of my face.
MR KOOPEDI: Did he hit you again with the butt?
MR MASHELE: Yes he did.
MR KOOPEDI: Did he hit you once?
MR MASHELE: He hit me - I think he hit me twice because after that I could not see anything.
MR KOOPEDI: On the second occasion, the one that you remember, where did he hit you? You say he hit you twice?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: On your left?
MR MASHELE: On my face. On my left face.
MR KOOPEDI: On the left side on your eye and you think he hit you twice?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now I want to know, on the second blow, where did he strike you?
MR MASHELE: On the same place.
MR KOOPEDI: On the same place. And other than this incident, you say there were other incidences but I want to get to the incident where your nose got broken. Which incident was this, what was happening there?
MR MASHELE: Like I said during the interrogation they were hitting me with everything, all sorts of articles. Sticks, butts, boots, trampling on me and I bled for a very long time.
MR KOOPEDI: Now let's forget a little about the - you know, we understand that there were other people. I want us to concentrate on him. On this other occasion did he also hit you with a butt? Did he use a butt?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: And what kind of a firearm was it?
MR MASHELE: A Makarov, a small one. A pistol.
MR KOOPEDI: Can you remember how many times he hit you with that?
MR MASHELE: Many times, I wouldn't remember, I could not recall the count.
MR KOOPEDI: Now other than that occasion, there are two occasions which we've spoken about and on both of them you were hit with a butt. Did he hit you again?
MR MASHELE: On the first occasion?
MR KOOPEDI: No, I may not have put the occasions in the chronological order that they follow but the first one you and I just spoke about was the situation which involved the epileptic person and there was this second incident where you were hit again during interrogation in using a butt. I want to know if there was another occasion where he assaulted you and if so, what did he use?
MR MASHELE: There was an occasion where he had an electric cord, a big one and it was woven and he kept hitting me on the head during interrogation.
MR KOOPEDI: Now who else, who else hit you other than him in the various times when you were assaulted. Who else hit you?
MR MASHELE: I said many people hit me. Many.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm asking for names.
MR MASHELE: I could mention twenty if you want me to but this is not about mentioning people, this is about me and him, trying to find a way of resolving our difference.
MR KOOPEDI: So you're not prepared to mention who else hit you? Are you not prepared to mention who else hit you?
MR MASHELE: It this won't implicate other people, I could mention a lot of names but I'm sure those people didn't inflict the injury he inflicted. Why? It's because the warders, like I have already said, they used to mete out their punishment on the buttocks.
MR KOOPEDI: So, the other people who hit you would have been the people who hit you in a sort of formal way, like those warders as you say they did?
MR MASHELE: Mmm.
MR KOOPEDI: Maybe let me put it the other way, do you work for the ANC?
MR MASHELE: Yes I do.
MR KOOPEDI: And what do you do for them?
MR MASHELE: I work in different departments. Right now I'm working with MK veterans, I'm an organiser.
MR KOOPEDI: And - I don't understand how organisers work and you will bear with me? And where do you work from?
MR MASHELE: From the headquarters, Luthuli House.
MR KOOPEDI: And are you salaried by them, are you paid by the ANC?
MR MASHELE: Yes I'm paid.
MR KOOPEDI: Well I find it strange because I made enquiries and no on seemed to work for the ANC but I'm not willing to make that an issue.
And finally, I put it to you that the reason why you are only prepared to mention, to name this applicant and the reason why you are saying that this applicant is the one who caused, you know, the bigger injuries, if one may call them so to you, is simply because you had an acknowledgement from him and you didn't get it. You asked for an apology and he refused to give it to you, that is when you asked. When he meets you at funerals, he does not acknowledge you and that is solely the reason why you're trying to change the situation?
MR MASHELE: It's not changing the situation, it's stating the facts as they are.
MR KOOPEDI: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Mashele, is it your evidence that at some point in the camp you yourself was assaulted by the warders in the course of their duties?
MR MASHELE: Yes it's true.
MR MAPOMA: What was it that they advanced for assaulting you?
MR MASHELE: There would be several reasons, excuses. For instance if you're working they would put a target and if you are unable to make the target within the stipulated time they would hit you.
MR MAPOMA: So is that an example of the circumstances under which you'd be hit?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MR MAPOMA: And did they, to your knowledge, did they report your failure to make the targets, did they report this to the head, that is Mr Noosi?
MR MASHELE: They could have reported but I doubt if they would report because they'd already punished you.
MR MAPOMA: Now when you were interrogated, if I understand you, your evidence that you were interrogated on a number of occasions, is it so?
MR MASHELE: It's true.
MR MAPOMA: And what reasons were they, that they would advance for you to be interrogated, by those who were interrogating you?
MR MASHELE: It's still very strange, even today, nobody wants to come up and say why.
MR MAPOMA: Yes but what - then at the time when you were interrogated, were there allegations put to you what was happening actually?
MR MASHELE: Allegations of infiltration were hinted upon.
MR MAPOMA: I see.
MR MASHELE: As the duration of my stay there.
MR MAPOMA: I see. Now you said in your first part of evidence that there were several incidents when you were assaulted by the applicant, do you remember that?
MR MASHELE: Yes.
MR MAPOMA: And in the course of evidence you said these incidences differed, I mean had been interrupted by a four year period?
MR MASHELE: No, I was talking about an incident from the first interrogation to the incident where of the epileptic case.
MR MAPOMA: I see. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mashele, I heard you mentioning the date being the 24th September 1981. How do you recall the date, the exact date? Your microphone before you speak?
MR MASHELE: The date of this nature you cannot forget in your life. When you are confronted with this situation, that really puts you off guard, that you did not expect.
MR SIBANYONI: Did I understand you correctly that you said you became dazed and you fell down on the ground?
MR MASHELE: Can you repeat that question please?
MR SIBANYONI: Did I understand you correctly that after the applicant allegedly assaulted you, you became dazed and there was an occasion that you were on the ground?
MR MASHELE: Yes. It was in the case of the epileptic case.
MR SIBANYONI: And when you were on the ground did any people assault you?
MR MASHELE: I don't know because I was in a state of coma or something.
MR SIBANYONI: We see a number of scars on your head which you showed to the Committee. Were those scars inflicted on the same occasion of the epileptic fit, of the person with an epileptic fit?
MR MASHELE: They simply added to the ones that I already had from the first interrogation.
MR SIBANYONI: Are you able to say how many did you sustain in the first occasion and how many in the second occasion?
MR MASHELE: No, I'm not able to say that.
MR SIBANYONI: When you were cross-examined by the applicant's legal representative, Mr Brian Koopedi, you said the applicant also used an electronic cord and hit you on your back?
MR MASHELE: On the head.
MR SIBANYONI: On the head. Why didn't you say that in your evidence-in-chief? You only mentioned it when you were cross-examined by Mr Koopedi.
MR MASHELE: I mentioned, I said several occasions he assaulted me during interrogations which he also admitted that there were several incidents, many incidents when he interrogated me. Many, countless ones.
MR SIBANYONI: You said you could mention twenty names of people who assaulted you. Are you saying it's the applicant and nineteen others who are warders or who are the other people who assaulted you?
MR MASHELE: The warders.
MR SIBANYONI: And they didn't inflict any injury during the assault?
MR MASHELE: I have several injuries in my body which are not significant.
MR SIBANYONI: Do you know of any reason why the applicant would persistently assault you?
MR MASHELE: It puzzles me because he was like the main person who was bent on getting whatever he wanted from me which even today is still puzzling.
MR SIBANYONI: Are you still having problems with him today or are you still angry with him today?
MR MASHELE: No I'm not. Even now I want him to be given amnesty on this case but I want the truth to come out.
MR SIBANYONI: And you are saying he hasn't told us the truth?
MR MASHELE: Exactly.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You were assaulted by numerous people, weren't you?
MR MASHELE: Yes it's true.
CHAIRPERSON: Your counsel put that for 155 days you were in solitary confinement and you were assaulted again and again and again?
MR MASHELE: Yes it's true.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were - there's all these other people, only caused insignificant injuries? Is that so?
MR MASHELE: It's true.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry, re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, thank you.
You, on this - can you just clarify this? On this question of you not wanting to mention names of people who assaulted you and you further when Mr Sibanyoni wanted to clarify that you said it's Mr Noosi and nineteen warders. But then is the position not that say in the first incident you were assaulted by the people with whom the applicant was interrogating you, amongst others Noosi, Stanley and this other one and in the second incident, you mentioned names like Mountain, Ronnie. Are these not the names of the people who assaulted you?
MR MASHELE: Yes it is true but I don't want to mention other names in that those persons were not persistent. You know, when you torture a person, you can torture him over 24 hours. You see, this is exactly what I'm implying here, that the interrogation of the 24th September 1981, was so severe that it caused a lot of damage and the other ones were - significant damage was also caused was the one the night of the epileptic case. That's why I mention names of those particular incidents. The others everybody was like an inmate in that place, suffered those and they were not significant in the sense that I still have my legs, my buttocks, I don't have any effects that are bothering me from those things.
MS MAKHUBELE: That's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
MR SIBANYONI: Maybe can I just comment Mr Mashele? You know, as the TRC should try to get a full picture as possible of what happened of relevant facts, as much as the applicant should tell us the whole story, we also expect you to tell us exactly the whole story what happened, how you suffered those gross human rights violations. So I do not know what is your reason for withholding certain names of people who assaulted you?
MR MASHELE: I would have expected a lot of people to come forward, you know, because the picture is portrayed here is that people were defending the ANC and people were motivated by certain, you know, things that were motivating them to do these things whereas the opposite could be true, that certain people did these things with certain motives, you see? That's what lies in the bottom of this thing, hence it is came as a surprise to me when I saw my name on the paper, that here is somebody who has got a conscience, to come and acknowledge that he did a wrong thing and I'm prepared to bend backwards and say I apologise - I accept your apology because he is brave to have come forward. A lot of people would never think, they would always hide behind the ANC and the ANC, everybody knows it, it's a non-violent organisation, it's a peaceful organisation. Even now persuasion methods are only used. Hence he can't say he was given directives to do what he did.
MR SIBANYONI: But you can't think of any motive other than a political motive for the applicant for having done what he did to you?
MR MASHELE: I'm pondering on a lot of ideas but I cannot say which one motivated him to do what he did.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any more witnesses?
MS MAKHUBELE: No more witnesses, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll hear argument tomorrow morning.
MR KOOPEDI: Fine by me, Chairperson. That's fine by me, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: What time suits you all, lady and gentlemen?
MS MAKHUBELE: Same time.
CHAIRPERSON: Nine?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
