Amnesty Hearings

DAWID JAKOBUS BRITS: (sworn states)

ADV BOSMAN: The applicant is properly sworn.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Brits, you may be seated. Mr Cornelius?

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Brits, your application appears in bundle 1 and starts on page 46 up until page 51, is that correct?

MR BRITS: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: During the submitting of this application you did not have legal representation and you then signed a second statement attached, Annexure B, where you describe your career, your personal circumstances and your experiences as a police officer, and then also the merits of the case, is that correct?

MR BRITS: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Insofar as it pertains to the political background it will fall under Annexure A.

MR BRITS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You are an applicant in this matter and you've given your co-operation with the Attorney-General, as well as the Investigative team of the TRC.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You were a so-called footsoldier serving in C-Section, Vlakplaas, what was your rank?

MR BRITS: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR CORNELIUS: And your Commander was at all times, Col de Kock?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You received all your instructions from him?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You have heard the evidence of Col de Kock, can you tell this Committee how it happened that you became involved in this case.

MR BRITS: As far as I can recall, Mr Chairperson, Col de Kock called me an gave me an instruction and told me that I must accompany a member of the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit, and go and create a DLB in the East Rand.

MR CORNELIUS: A DLB is a dead letter box?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Is it common practice that such requests were directed towards Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you do after you received this information?

MR BRITS: I went to Lionel Snyman, that is ...(intervention)

MR CORNELIUS: Your co-applicant?

MR BRITS: That is correct. ... and he provided me with certain weaponry. As far as I can recall it was three landmines, two or three handgrenades.

MR CORNELIUS: And I see also in your application you talk about a Makarov pistol.

MR BRITS: Yes, I had that in my personal - I had that on my person at that stage. When we created this DLB, I placed the Makarov and the magazine with rounds, in this DLB.

MR CORNELIUS: These weapons were so-called East-bloc weapons, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: After you were issued these weapons from Mr Snyman, what did you do?

MR BRITS: I had an appointment with Mr Koekemoer and on the Sunday afternoon I drove to his house. That is the member of Murder and Robbery unit.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Koekemoer from East Rand Murder and Robbery?

MR BRITS: That's correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?

MR BRITS: We loaded it into his vehicle from my vehicle and we drove to Nelspruit in the vehicle. It was a Sunday, as far as I can recall. Outside of Nelspruit we went to go and look at a place where we then parked the vehicle. We took out a shovel, dug a hole and put the weaponry in the hole.

MR CORNELIUS: If you say outside of Nelspruit, where approximately is it?

MR BRITS: It was on the way to Komatipoort, on the left-hand side is the kaNyamazane turnoff, it's between the two turnoffs.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you then dig a hole?

MR BRITS: Yes, we did.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?

MR BRITS: We then buried the weapons.

MR CORNELIUS: If you say "we", is it just yourself and Koekemoer?

MR BRITS: No, we took turns in digging this hole while the other one guarded to see who's coming. I then placed the stuff in the hole and covered it.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you wrap them?

MR BRITS: Yes, we wrapped them in black bags.

MR CORNELIUS: Rubbish bags?

MR BRITS: Yes, rubbish bags.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?

MR BRITS: We then drove from there to Malelane, there we bought 12 beers and put R50 worth of petrol in Koekemoer's car. We then drove to Benoni, where I got my vehicle. The next day I arrived at Vlakplaas, I saw Col de Kock and I told him that the operation was successful.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not participate in the murder or the elimination of the victim?

MR BRITS: No.

MR CORNELIUS: But you understood that somebody could have been, or may be killed in this.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you later heard that it did occur?

MR BRITS: Yes, I saw in a newspaper article that Mr Koekemoer took a person out for identification outside of Nelspruit, and I then told my co-applicant, Lionel Snyman, I told him "it seems as if it is this DLB that we created."

MR CORNELIUS: And you heard somebody was killed?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: At a later stage were you taken to make certain identifications?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you have to do?

MR BRITS: I had to go and identify the place where we established the DLB.

MR CORNELIUS: Could you do it?

MR BRITS: I couldn't do it, no.

MR CORNELIUS: If I recall correctly, the reason - what was the reason why you couldn't do it?

MR BRITS: After we established that DLB, there was a lot of rain, the road washed away, it was broader than before, there was a lot of soil because of the mountain close-by and there was a lot of ...

MR CORNELIUS: Geographically the area changed.

MR BRITS: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You worked on a need-to-know basis, is that correct?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: So you did not ask things that you did not need to know?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Apart from the salary that you received, did you receive any remuneration for this?

MR BRITS: No, not for this specific incident.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not know the victim, you worked on the information that you received from Security, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not have any feelings of malice towards this person?

MR BRITS: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you liaise with Gen Engelbrecht during this operation?

MR BRITS: As far as I can recall, no, I didn't.

MR CORNELIUS: I see in your previous application that Col de Kock said that you reported back to Gen Engelbrecht in person, what is your comment?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can recall.

MR CORNELIUS: Just another correction. In the application of Mr de Kock, it says that Lionel Snyman established the DLB.

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, I did it.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you accompanied by Snyman?

MR BRITS: No, he only provided me with the weapons or ammunition.

MR CORNELIUS: You apply for amnesty for various offences that you committed under the Explosives Act, as well as under the Weapons and Ammunition Act, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You also apply for amnesty for conspiracy to murder as well as being an accomplice, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And you never made known or disclosed this information and in a certain sense it was also defeating the ends of justice and you also apply for amnesty for that offence, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you also apply for any other delicts that may flow from the actions concerning this incident, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius.

When you say on page 47, (iv):

"The nature and details: Establish DLB with landmines, handgrenades and weapons at kaNyamazane. The members involved: Col de Kock, Capt Koekemoer and Snyman."

What are you talking about when you say that?

MR BRITS: Mr Chairperson, Col de Kock gave me the instruction, Koekemoer accompanied me, Snyman provided the landmines and the rest of the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hattingh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Brits, did you read through the documents, the statements of the other applicants in front of the Committee today?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: But you probably heard that on behalf of Gen Engelbrecht it was put to Mr de Kock, that Gen Engelbrecht has no knowledge and gave no instructions concerning this incident.

MR BRITS: I heard that, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Now I'd like to mention it to you that as far as I understand Mr Koekemoer's evidence and statement, it also seems as if he's going to deny that he accompanied you to Nelspruit to establish this weapon stockpile.

MR BRITS: That is possibly so.

MR HATTINGH: And that he will also deny that he approached de Kock or Engelbrecht to assist in the elimination of a person.

MR BRITS: It could be so, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Somewhere Mr de Kock had to receive information that Mr Koekemoer is going to have a hand in the elimination of the deceased.

MR BRITS: That's correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Now you say - if I can just look at your affidavit again, the affidavit that you filed - if I can just get the page reference, it appears in bundle 2 at page 79. Where did you make this affidavit?

MR BRITS: It was the investigative officer of the Attorney-General.

MR HATTINGH: And this was with the view of appearing as a possible witness to testify against Mr de Kock in his trial, not so? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: It was not just concerning this incident, but also various other incidents where you were involved and certain statements were taken from you.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall who from the Investigative team took down this statement concerning this incident?

MR BRITS: It was a Capt Liesk.

MR HATTINGH: And this statement was made at their offices?

MR BRITS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. In this statement you say, and this is now paragraph 3

"During 1991, I cannot recall the date, Col de Kock phoned me and told me that I must pick things up from Lionel Snyman. At that stage I thought it had something to do with weapons."

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did he first tell you to go and pick things up at Lionel Snyman, before you got the instructions to assist Koekemoer?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, if you look at paragraph 4

"He also further informed me that I must contact Detective-Capt Koekemoer of the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit and together we must go to the Eastern Transvaal."

...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR HATTINGH: How sure are you about the fact that he mentioned Koekemoer's name, because he said that he did not even know who the person at the East Rand was.

MR BRITS: I'm very sure about this, Mr Chairperson, because I said here Detective Koekemoer, but we call him "Koekies", and he said that I must go and assist "Koekies".

MR HATTINGH: And the further information appearing here, saying that you have to go to the Eastern Transvaal, did he also tell you that?

MR BRITS: Yes, Mr Chairperson. I said Eastern Transvaal here, but he actually said Nelspruit.

MR HATTINGH: Did he tell you what you have to do at Nelspruit?

MR BRITS: No, he just told me that I must contact Koekemoer and I must pick up things from Lionel Snyman and accompany Koekemoer to Nelspruit.

MR HATTINGH: Did you then go to Koekemoer's house as you testified?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You knew him well, not so?

MR BRITS: Yes, I knew him very well.

MR HATTINGH: You were also stationed at the East Rand, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: What section?

MR BRITS: The Diamond and Gold Branch.

MR HATTINGH: And you then got to know him from there?

MR BRITS: Not in the true sense of the word, although we did liaise at that stage with him, but I got to know him better when I started working at the Security Branch.

MR HATTINGH: Did you become good friends?

MR BRITS: Yes, very good friends.

MR HATTINGH: And is there any reason why you would incriminate him here by saying that you went with him to establish a weapons stockpile? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: No, not at all.

MR HATTINGH: And you do not carry any malice towards him.

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You say as far as you can recall you did not liaise with Gen Engelbrecht, is that correct? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that you could have been in contact with him and you just forgot about it?

MR BRITS: It is possible but not likely, Mr Chairperson, because I'm a junior officer and it was not my position to make contact with somebody on that level.

MR HATTINGH: But if somebody gave you instructions to do it, then it wouldn't be strange, not so?

MR BRITS: No.

MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that you just could have forgotten about it?

MR BRITS: Yes, it is possible.

MR HATTINGH: You contacted Gen Engelbrecht often, not so?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: In connection with various incidents?

MR BRITS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you also testified about this in the past?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: So it is possible that you did contact him, but you just forgot about it.

MR BRITS: Yes, that is true.

MR HATTINGH: When you arrived at Mr Koekemoer's house and you drove away, did he tell you what you were going to do?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall. It is possible that he did tell me or mention it to me, but it was not really important. I had an instruction to create a DLB and that is what we did.

MR HATTINGH: But you were not curious about the whole purpose was of this DLB?

MR BRITS: No, I wasn't, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you can recall that while you were still my client, shortly after the Goldstone Commission released its report, you and other members of Vlakplaas, myself and my attorney drove down with you to the Lowveld to inspect and we inspected various places, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And we inspected various places.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall that when we drove back from Komatipoort, we drove past this place, and I'm not quite sure if it was you or one of the other members who indicated a hill with a large rock face, was it you or was it one of the other members?

MR BRITS: It was one of the other members.

MR HATTINGH: But is my description correct, that up against the mountain or hill there was a big rock cliff?

MR BRITS: The mountain was in the right side of Komatipoort, Chairperson, the rock was on the left side by the river. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR HATTINGH: And when I noticed it and I said, "So, what about it?", and this person, I cannot recall who it was, told me, "Just remember this place, you will at a later stage hear about it."

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I think it was Lionel Snyman.

MR HATTINGH: Was the place where you created the DLB?

MR BRITS: Yes, it was in that area.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. And that was after this incident to which was referred to at that stage, although it was not mentioned by name?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: You could not at a later stage identify the place, but photographs were taken - Mr Chairperson, I was not present at the previous hearing, I only have copies of the photographs, I don't know if you have the original photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: It is the same with us, we don't have the actual photos. I don't know with the Evidence Leader.

MS PATEL: I have the originals, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you want the originals, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: If possible, yes please, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

Mr Brits, I will now show you photograph 1 which is the original photograph of the photocopy that appears on page 63 of bundle 2, and then the photographs that follow on that. This person standing with the checked shirt, with the weapon under the left arm, is that Mr Koekemoer?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know who is standing in front of him?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: I know it is quite difficult for you because the photograph does not cover a very wide area but just a specific small area, I would like you to go through photograph 1 and more specifically photograph 2. Look at the original, does that look like the area where you created the DLB?

MR BRITS: It is possible, Mr Chairperson, because there's a river in the background and the river was in the background.

MR HATTINGH: He also mentions in his affidavit during the de Kock hearing, that there was a cut down tree stump, it's very clear in photograph 2. Can you recall the stump?

MR BRITS: No.

MR HATTINGH: Now it appears in photograph 3 as if there is a hole that has been dug very close to this sawn down tree stump.

MR BRITS: It does look like it, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall if you dug this hole close to this tree stump?

MR BRITS: No, I cannot recall.

MR HATTINGH: Let us look at photograph 5, there we see three - are they limpet mines, or are they just ordinary landmines? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: Ordinary landmines.

MR HATTINGH: Can you see any other weaponry on this photograph? I do not know if it's a handgrenade in the front of this photograph.

MR BRITS: Yes, there's a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not very clear in the photocopy.

MR HATTINGH: I will give you the original.

CHAIRPERSON: As soon as you are finished with your questioning.

MR HATTINGH: I notice there is another bundle of originals.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm indebted to you.

MR HATTINGH: It's Photograph 5 that we are dealing with now, in front of the two mines there's a black pistol with a brown handgrip, how does that pistol compare to the pistol that you left at the DLB?

MR BRITS: It could be the same pistol, it does like a Makarov.

MR HATTINGH: And the landmines, how does that compare with what you received from Mr Snyman and buried there?

MR BRITS: The landmines that I received from Mr Snyman were wrapped in black bags, so I cannot say if it is the same.

MR HATTINGH: But there were three of them?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you can see three here?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Then you can see there is still leftover black plastic bag shreds or pieces of bag in the background.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: I think it's clearer on one of the previous photographs, photograph 4. Is that a black plastic bag behind the tree?

MR BRITS: It does seem like it.

MR HATTINGH: Or is it a person lying there? I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: It looks like a person, I see a hand.

MR HATTINGH: I also see a hand, yes.

Very well. Photograph 8 is a photograph of the pistol that was found there. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Is that a Makarov pistol?

MR BRITS: Yes, as far as my knowledge goes, it is.

MR HATTINGH: And is it similar to the one that you left behind there?

MR BRITS: Yes, it's similar.

MR HATTINGH: Was the one that you left behind loaded?

MR BRITS: Yes, it was.

MR HATTINGH: And the magazine was full of rounds?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall if there was one in the chamber?

MR BRITS: No, I cannot.

MR HATTINGH: Here are photos indicating the road - I have not had an opportunity to study the key of the document, are you able to say whether this concurs with the facility where you set up the DLB?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson. As I've said, the mountain is on the right-hand side and the large rock would have been on the left.

MR HATTINGH: Is this how you study photo 1 now?

MR BRITS: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And on photo 2 one also sees the mountain in the background.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And with photo number 4 we see the rock on the other side.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Is that more-or-less the area where you stopped then to establish this weapons cache point?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You drove past there many times, is that not so, Mr Brits?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you worked there for a long time, so the vicinity was familiar to you.

MR BRITS: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that Mr de Kock told you after you returned from Nelspruit, to report to Gen Engelbrecht that you had set up the cache point?

MR BRITS: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know the deceased?

MR BRITS: No, I did not, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You were never involved in any operation with him?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Were you ever involved in any operations along with Mr Coetzee or Pretorius?

MR BRITS: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Will you grant me a moment, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr van den Berg?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The instruction that you received from Mr de Kock was according to you, to assist Mr Koekemoer or to accompany Mr Koekemoer to the Eastern Transvaal to set up a DLB.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And do I understand correctly that there was no mention in that instruction or discussion of the fact that an informer would have to be killed?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson, there was not.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And do I understand you correctly that you visited Mr Koekemoer's house a few times?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And on one or two occasions you were there with your girlfriend, visiting Mr Koekemoer and his wife?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You allege that you went there on a Sunday, for purposes of the establishment of this DLB.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You drove to the Eastern Transvaal with Mr Koekemoer's vehicle, is that correct?

MR BRITS: Yes, his State vehicle.

MR VAN DEN BERG: His State vehicle, that's correct.

Do you recall what type of car it was?

MR BRITS: It was a white Sierra.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When this alleged incident took place, how long were you at Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: Approximately five years, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And if my memory does not fail me, Vlakplaas was not a place where one would keep records of where you would go, today you went to Nelspruit, tomorrow you go to Brits, you did not keep such records, you did not keep a pocket book?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson, I did not.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you did not use normal documents which an everyday policeman would use?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Would you agree that Mr Koekemoer had to keep records of where he had to drive to and for what purposes he was using this State vehicle?

MR BRITS: I would believe that he was supposed to do so, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Would it not have been strange or have caused uncomfortable questions if he drove his vehicle to Nelspruit, 3-400 kilometres away and back?

MR BRITS: Mr Koekemoer at that stage was one of the senior Investigators in his unit and I do not think that many questions would be put to him if he used the vehicle, because they were on stand-by many times and they had to drive quickly to go and do something or perform some task.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But would a report flow from that?

MR BRITS: I believe one would have flowed from that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Koekemoer denies that this incident took place, that he accompanied you to the Eastern Transvaal to establish this fictitious DLB.

MR BRITS: As I've already said, Chairperson, that is how it happened, so I cannot say anything on Mr Koekemoer's behalf.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You cannot recall what you discussed with him when you drove there?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson. As I've said, we knew each other quite well and in general we could have discussed anything, but we did not discuss this.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Hattingh asked you whether you were not curious about the establishment of this DLB.

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson. As I have said, I was not curious, it was my instruction and I did not ask any questions.

MR VAN DEN BERG: According to you, you were good friends, you trusted each other, why did you not ask him?

MR BRITS: This was an arrangement between Col de Kock and Capt Koekemoer and I did not need to know about it, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I understand your answer correctly, the arrangement was made between de Kock and Koekemoer, is that how you understood it?

MR BRITS: Yes, I received my instruction from Col de Kock.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you have heard that Col de Kock did not make these arrangements, that he did not even know the person's name at Murder and Robbery on the East Rand.

MR BRITS: As I have testified earlier, Chairperson, he did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You refer to three landmines.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson. I am not sure whether it was two or three handgrenades and I placed my personal Makarov there.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So the Makarov was from you personally?

MR BRITS: Yes, correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you say two or three handgrenades.

MR BRITS: Yes, I'm not certain whether it's two or three.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall what type of handgrenades they were?

MR BRITS: They were of Eastern origin. It's a rough type of handgrenade, it was not ...

CHAIRPERSON: Like a pineapple perhaps?

MR BRITS: Yes, like a pineapple.

MR VAN DEN BERG: There is a statement, let me just find it, of a Mr van Zyl, I think, P J van Zyl, on page 21 of volume 2 - perhaps before we arrive at that aspect, the handgrenades and the landmines and the Makarovs were all in the DLB in the black refuse bags.

MR BRITS: The pistol I placed on top.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the handgrenades, where were they?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall whether I placed the handgrenades with the landmines.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall whether they were in the bag?

MR BRITS: I do not recall, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Let us study van Zyl's affidavit, this is in the post-mortem inquest, he mentions a TM46 landmine, was this the type of landmine which was supplied?

MR BRITS: That is so, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is it so, or is it possible?

MR BRITS: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then you pointed out the photo of the Makarov, and the handgrenades - well, there is no mention of handgrenades, except in paragraph 9 of this statement. And mention is made of steel balls, similar to that which is found in a M75 handgrenade, do you see that? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But there was no other handgrenade in the DLB.

MR BRITS: Not according to the statement, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then if we study Mr Koekemoer's statement, page 89 of volume 2, if we study page 92, paragraph 19 thereof, there no mention is made of handgrenades. It says

"3 TM46 landmines, the Makarov and the rounds of ammunition."

MR BRITS: I see that, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And if we have a look at Mr Koekemoer's version, one handgrenade exploded. You don't know about this because you were not there?

MR BRITS: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: But according to your evidence there were two or three handgrenades.

MR BRITS: That's how I recall it, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened to the other two or the other one?

MR BRITS: I do not know, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say in your evidence-in-chief that you could not identify the place later.

MR BRITS: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Because of certain circumstances that had changed.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then I just would like to put Mr Koekemoer's version to you. He denies that he was with you to establish this DLB, and you have already commented on that.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And he denies that the death of the deceased here was anything else but self-defence. Can you comment?

MR BRITS: I cannot comment.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And from your discussion with him and from your discussion with Col de Kock, no mention was made and there was no talk of murder of an informer or of a former informer.

MR BRITS: Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, I'd like to take an instruction but I don't want to have the matter stand down or anything like that. Perhaps if Mr Hurwitz is ready with his cross-examination and if there's anything else, I might mention it after Mr Hurwitz has completed. If that would be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll take it in that way, Mr Hurwitz would cross-examine and if you do come up with something, you'll do it after him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG STANDS OVER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hurwitz?

MR HURWITZ: Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I don't have too many questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't regret it, Mr Hurwitz.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HURWITZ: Mr Brits, do you know Manuel Olifant?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR HURWITZ: Are you aware of - so you're not aware of any officer/sub-officer relationship that would exist between Pretorius and Coetzee and Mr Olifant?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR HURWITZ: So are you aware of any instructions which may or may not have been given by Pretorius or Coetzee to Olifant, concerning this matter?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR HURWITZ: I have no further questions for this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HURWITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hurwitz. Mr Jonker?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONKER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Brits, where did you receive this instruction from Mr de Kock to go to the East Rand?

MR BRITS: At Vlakplaas, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: If you study page 79, volume 2, your statement there in paragraph 3 states

"During 1991, I cannot recall the date, Col de Kock called me and told me that I had to pick up some stuff from Lionel Snyman."

MR BRITS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Where were you when he told you?

MR BRITS: I was in the East Rand, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: You see you just said now, Sir, that you received this instruction at Vlakplaas, and now you are saying that you were in the East Rand. Where did you receive this instruction?

MR BRITS: I received it at Vlakplaas, Chairperson. Things I said here was not stated in detail. Col de Kock called me and told me he wanted to see me and at Vlakplaas he gave me the instruction. So he called me and told me that I have to receive things from Lionel Snyman, but the instruction to go to Eastern Transvaal with Koekemoer, I received at Vlakplaas.

MR JONKER: So at Vlakplaas, what was the instruction you received?

MR BRITS: That I had to accompany Koekemoer after I picked up the things from Lionel Snyman. He told me, "pick up the things from Lionel Snyman", and I did not know what it was.

MR JONKER: You did not know what you had to go and do there with Koekemoer?

MR BRITS: No, he told that I have to go to Koekemoer on the East Rand and then we have to go to Nelspruit.

MR JONKER: To do what?

MR BRITS: To establish a DLB.

MR JONKER: You see, Sir, if you study paragraph 4 of your statement, there you say

"He also informed me that I had to contact Capt Koekemoer of East Rand Murder and Robbery and accompany him to the Eastern Transvaal. At that stage I did not know what was going on."

But now you say that you were told to establish a DLB.

MR BRITS: It's possible that he could have said it, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Because at this stage you had time to think about this incident and at that stage you didn't know what you had to go and do in the East Rand, but in the meantime you have now gleamed what you were supposed to do in the Eastern Transvaal.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And you see further in your statement in paragraph 5, the last sentence there

"At that stage I suspected that we will establish a weapons cache point."

Once again, you did not know what you were going to do there, but you suspect then, but now you're saying that de Kock told you that you must establish it.

MR BRITS: It's as I have testified, Chairperson, that is how I can recall it.

MR JONKER: And furthermore, you gave evidence that you were at Vlakplaas on a need-to-know basis.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: You see your colleague, Mr Snyman's version is that he heard of this incident in the canteen. Now at which stage was this a need-to-know principle, if it was so secret but was talked about in the canteen? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: I only heard afterwards about this from Mr Snyman, Chairperson, and I read about the shooting in a newspaper article, approximately a month afterwards.

MR JONKER: What did you hear from Snyman?

MR BRITS: With the investigation of the Attorney-General, Snyman told me that Col Human and Mr Koekemoer had a conversation with Col de Kock in the canteen. That is what he told me, Mr Snyman, with the investigation of the Attorney-General.

MR JONKER: You see, Sir, because if we have regard for page 31 of bundle 1, the application of Mr Snyman, paragraph 3 he says

"From discussions which had taken place in the canteen, I drew the inference that a black person had to be shot"

not that he was shot already, they will shoot him in future. This was such a secret operation but everybody knew that this man had to be killed in the future.

MR BRITS: I did not know about it, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Sir, who went with you to the Eastern Transvaal?

MR BRITS: It was only myself and Mr Koekemoer.

MR JONKER: And the statement that you signed this morning, when did you depose to this statement?

MR BRITS: In last week, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: If we study the un-numbered pages of Exhibit B, that would be the fourth page, the third paragraph under merits, I'll read the sentence

"Along with members of the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit, I drove to the Eastern Transvaal."

Which members? Which members are you referring to if you only went with Mr Koekemoer?

MR BRITS: That must be a typing fault, Chairperson, I did not read it in detail, but I only went with Mr Koekemoer.

MR JONKER: Sir, you gave evidence that Capt Koekemoer was a senior member there at the East Rand Murder and Robbery, and you will certainly agree with me it was not the most difficult of tasks to manoeuvre the travelling documents.

MR BRITS: Probably.

MR JONKER: So, Sir, what would the use be to manipulate travel documents and to fit in 800 kilometres and then fill petrol from your own pocket? It doesn't make sense, it's easier to use police money.

MR BRITS: That is indeed why I used money from my own pocket ... at the police station he would have had to have given his registration number and the kilometres on the odometer, that is why I used money from my own pocket.

MR JONKER: Sir, I want to tell you, in 1988 there was no registration numbers given, only SAP numbers were given.

MR BRITS: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: This was a clandestine operation that Koekemoer wanted. If I understand you correctly, it was between Koekemoer and de Kock, this clandestine operation. For what purpose did you have to use money from your own pocket for petrol? If it was so clandestine for Koekemoer, why did he not use money from his own pocket?

MR BRITS: Chairperson, we had access to the Secret Fund and we could use the money from there for such things, we only needed a receipt.

MR JONKER: There was a system in the South African Police Force, they called it the Business Expenditure Fund, and each unit had an amount of money available to it for any actions, so if this Captain was involved in these things, then he could have gone to his expense fund which was locked up in his Colonel's safe and received money from there, why would he take R50 from you?

MR BRITS: I don't know, Chairperson, it's possible that I had the R50 with me, because I also bought the beer.

MR JONKER: Now that you mention the beer, you drove 400 kilometres back from Nelspruit.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: You consumed a few beers, you were now relaxed, would you agree?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And while you are relaxed, this incident is not discussed any further, you do not ask him, "Listen here old Koekies my mate, what were we doing in Nelspruit"?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson, I went to set up a DLB.

MR JONKER: You did not discuss this matter with each other?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson, not that I can recall.

MR JONKER: Not that you can recall. So you possibly must have discussed it, but you cannot recall?

MR BRITS: At this stage I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: You see, Sir, earlier in your evidence-in-chief or under cross-examination from one of my colleagues, you testified that it was not discussed, but now you are saying you cannot recall whether you discussed it or not.

MR BRITS: That is so, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Sir, the Monday morning, where did you report to Mr de Kock, at Vlakplaas or where was it?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And what did de Kock tell you then?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: So you cannot deny that de Kock sent you to go to Gen Engelbrecht to go and report?

MR BRITS: No, I cannot deny that, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: So it's entirely possible that you did go to Gen Engelbrecht?

MR BRITS: That's possible, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Sir, Capt Koekemoer, on what regular basis did he visit Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: It was on a regular basis. There was close co-operation between the East Rand and us, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: What was this specific close co-operation with East Rand and Murder and Robbery?

MR BRITS: We used their sources, Chairperson, and they used our people.

MR JONKER: So, Sir, it is then possible that one of your informers or East Rand Murder and Robbery's sources was a problem for them?

MR BRITS: That's possible, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And this cache point had to be established to take out one of East Rand's sources?

MR BRITS: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: How often did Gen Engelbrecht visit Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: In general, if we came back from deployment, so once a month, then we held a braai and he was there to talk to the people.

MR JONKER: Can you recall what he drank there?

MR BRITS: I do not recall, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And Capt Koekemoer or Lieut Koekemoer, as he was at that stage, did he visit Vlakplaas regularly while Gen Engelbrecht was there?

MR BRITS: I said not regularly, at the end of the month. Not every end of the month, when we had a meeting, then he might be there.

MR JONKER: Sir, did you receive any money for acts that have been committed while you were a member of the Police Force?

MR BRITS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: What did you have to do to receive this money?

MR BRITS: I didn't have to do anything, Chairperson, it was after the incident had taken place, then Col de Kock or one of the other senior members would give us a few rand.

MR JONKER: After what incident had taken place?

MR BRITS: Well one specific incident was with Tiso. We had to put in false claims for a period of three or six months and after a while this was stopped. That's the only money that I can recall receiving.

MR JONKER: Did you at any stage, Sir, establish these DLBs and claim informer's fees for it?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: The deceased, did you know him?

MR BRITS: Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson, I don't believe so. I had dealings with many people, but with regard to the name, I don't believe I knew him.

MR JONKER: Did you know the name Strongman?

MR BRITS: I did not, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Sir, why would Capt Koekemoer come and deny that he was involved in the killing of this specific person?

MR BRITS: I would not know, Chairperson, maybe you should ask him.

MR JONKER: Did you not have a problem with him at some stage?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson, not yet.

MR JONKER: You were very good friends.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: You were such good friends that you trusted each other with everything that you did, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: You trusted each other so much that on the way back from Nelspruit, after you had consumed a few beers and everybody in the canteen knew of this man that had to be killed, you still did not discuss the matter with each other?

MR BRITS: It was irrelevant to me, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: What was irrelevant to you, to establish a DLB?

MR BRITS: No, my instruction was to set up a DLB and further I had nothing to do with the rest of the operation. If there was an operation.

MR JONKER: But Sir, you received monies for certain things that were done, you must have been interested in knowing whether, if this successful, maybe you would received a few rand.

MR BRITS: I did not think about it at that stage, Chairperson, so I did not discuss it.

MR JONKER: So if I understand you correctly, if operations were successful, you would receive money?

MR BRITS: Not necessarily with each and every operation, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: But some of them you did.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And at this specific stage you did not need money, because that is why you were not interested in the incident.

MR BRITS: We did not do our work for money, Chairperson, we did our work because it was our work.

MR JONKER: As I understand you, Mr Snyman was only the supplier of the armoury, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And Mr Snyman kept record of what happened here, he came to tell you "Listen, in the newspaper there was an article about this."

MR BRITS: No, you're wrong, I told him about the newspaper article.

MR JONKER: When you saw Koekemoer again, did you ask him what happened about that incident there in Komatipoort?

MR BRITS: No, it was not long thereafter when we were disbanded, so I didn't actually see him.

MR JONKER: Sir, you were such good social friends with Koekemoer, you visited his house along with your girlfriend.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Yes. And then you read this in the newspaper that the person had been killed, you were very good friends but you never asked him, "Listen, is this the DLB, the DLB there, is this where this person was shot?"

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: But why not?

MR BRITS: As I have said, I was not interested in it, it was not of any interest to me.

MR JONKER: But certainly you must have heard, or may I put it as follows. Did Karel Koekemoer never tell you that, "Listen, I shot somebody there, there at that DLB"?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: At no stage?

MR BRITS: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Did you hear that he had killed someone?

MR BRITS: I read it in the newspaper, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: But did you hear that Mr Koekemoer shot this person?

MR BRITS: I know Mr Koekemoer from the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit, and I read it in the newspaper.

MR JONKER: Sir, did the newspaper say Capt Koekemoer shot the person?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Yes. And you do not ask Koekemoer about this incident afterwards?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson, not that I can recall.

MR JONKER: But why not?

MR BRITS: Well it was his operation, Chairperson, it was not necessary for me to ask him what he did.

MR JONKER: But you were part of the operation.

MR BRITS: Only for the DLB, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Yes, Sir, just for the DLB is already a large part of the operation, because if you did not establish the DLB, then there was no operation. Or the deceased would have been killed elsewhere, so your part of the operation was half of the operation.

MR BRITS: It did not bother me at that stage, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Did Mr de Kock at any stage tell you that this action had been successful?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Did you not ask him what happened of it?

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson, when we were done with an operation we regarded it as concluded.

MR JONKER: But you and your social friends, or may I state it as follows. You and your friends sat there in the canteen and discussed operations.

MR BRITS: Sometimes, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Yes. On the contrary, Mr de Kock testified that the canteen was the operational room.

MR BRITS: Sometimes, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: Yes. And it was discussed that this person would be killed in the canteen, but you never heard about it again.

MR BRITS: I was not present when it was discussed, Chairperson. Later I heard about this from Lionel Snyman.

MR JONKER: Did you later hear from Lionel Snyman that ...?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson. As I've already said, after the Attorney-General stared his investigation, Lionel Snyman reported it to me, or mentioned it to me.

MR JONKER: When did Lionel Snyman mention it to you, five or six years afterwards?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: And during those five or six years time you never heard of this specific person that was killed. You work with these people every day, you drink beers with these people in the canteen and at no stage did you hear of it and all of a sudden, five years afterwards, now you hear about it.

MR BRITS: We were quite busy at that stage, Chairperson, many people were killed in many different areas.

MR JONKER: Yes, I am convinced of that, Sir. But you heard of other people who had been killed, you testified that there in the canteen you discussed things and some of your colleagues said that you were involved in this specific incident, and you were with that incident and you discussed it in the canteen. The police refer to it as "speak easy", this canteen. It would appear that this is where you planned everything, in the canteen. Was this thing never discussed in the canteen again?

MR BRITS: It could be, Chairperson, but not where I was present.

MR JONKER: Gen Engelbrecht, did he attend these operational planning sessions in the canteen?

MR BRITS: A few times that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: How many are a few times, once, twice or a few? You cannot recall.

MR BRITS: We were not supposed to consume liquor before an operation or discuss the operation before, only afterwards, but I did not keep records as to when, who was there, so I do not know when Gen Engelbrecht was there.

MR JONKER: And Sir, after the operation had been concluded you enjoyed a few beers, if I understand you correctly.

MR BRITS: Yes, sometimes.

MR JONKER: And then you discussed the successes of the operation?

MR BRITS: Not necessarily always, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: But it is done.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JONKER: But nothing was said of this specific operation?

MR BRITS: It was a very small operation with regard to, very few persons were involved, it was not supposed to be general knowledge.

MR JONKER: But everybody knew about this in the canteen.

MR BRITS: I don't know.

MR JONKER: I put it to you, it was such a small operation, but Snyman heard about it in the canteen.

MR BRITS: I think if I recall correctly, Lionel Snyman told me that he was present in the canteen when Koekemoer, Human and Col de Kock had discussed it. I was not present, so I speak on hearsay, and I had said that is what Lionel told me.

MR JONKER: You testified that Engelbrecht was there when they planned certain actions, were you present in some of the meetings or during the planning where the General was involved?

MR BRITS: The General and the senior officers would plan the operation, afterwards Gen Engelbrecht would sit in while the planning was done.

MR JONKER: You are now talking about he may sit in with the planning, did he?

MR BRITS: Yes, I think once or twice, as far as I can recall.

MR JONKER: And when the operation was completed, was the General again involved or close by?

MR BRITS: Yes, maybe at a later stage he'd come and tell us, "Congratulations with the operation", etcetera.

MR JONKER: And if this Gen now sat in with the planning of some of the actions, who would usually report back to the General?

MR BRITS: It would be Col de Kock in his absence, Baker or Paul van Dyk, because they were the three senior officers.

MR JONKER: And did it sometimes happen that some of you were sent to Gen Engelbrecht's office?

MR BRITS: No, not that I can recall. It could be that Willie Nortje and some of the other members could have done it. But it is possible that Col de Kock could have sent me to go and report back to the General.

MR JONKER: You're an old hand, you're a Warrant Officer with a few years of service, you were one of the old men, and with the close co-operation in your unit it didn't really matter who was sent to the General?

MR BRITS: Yes, there was a big difference concerning who was going to go to the General.

MR JONKER: I'm not saying that you did not respect the ranks, but there was a more social atmosphere, if I can put it that way, maybe a better inter-personal relationship between the ranks. It was not quite the case where there's an officer sitting completely separate from the others, you worked together and you trusted each other.

MR BRITS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JONKER: So there was not that big a difference between a Warrant, or that a Warrant Officer would be too scared to talk to a General, because a General visits Vlakplaas regularly and you could have gone up to him and had a conversation with him.

MR BRITS: Yes, that is correct.

MR JONKER: So if you had a serious problem, you could certainly have gone to the General and tell him that, "Listen, I've a serious problem"?

MR BRITS: Yes, but I ...

MR JONKER: But you cannot recall how often you went to General Engelbrecht's office.

MR BRITS: No, I cannot.

MR JONKER: Is it possible that you've been there?

MR BRITS: Yes, it's possible.

MR JONKER: So if I understand Mr de Kock's evidence, is it possible that it's true?

MR BRITS: It is possible that he sent me, yes.

MR JONKER: Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JONKER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr van den Berg, from your brief encounter with client?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Just a single aspect, Mr Chairperson.

The handgrenade that you described, with the assistance of the Chairperson you described it as looking like a pineapple.

MR BRITS: Yes, as far as I can recall.

MR VAN DEN BERG: An F1?

MR BRITS: Yes, I do not know why they mention here M57, the M57 is a smooth surface handgrenade.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I've got no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van den Berg. Mr Wagener?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Thank you, Chairman.

Mr Brits, from when to when were you involved in Vlakplaas, or at Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: From '86 to '92, Mr Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: On the 1st of February 1992, the Vlakplaas component divided, can you remember?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson, as far as I can recall.

MR WAGENER: Part of it remained at Vlakplaas under the command of, I think it was a Maj Dave Baker.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR WAGENER: And a part of it moved to a building in Meyer's Park, under Mr de Kock's command.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR WAGENER: And a few months later another section went to Midrand, under the command of Paul van Dyk.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: After this division, where did you resort?

MR BRITS: Under Col de Kock.

MR WAGENER: So after the 1st of February you were not at Vlakplaas anymore?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, although we did meet there.

MR WAGENER: But your office from which you worked was not at Vlakplaas anymore?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: No? You agree with what I said?

MR BRITS: Yes, that is correct.

MR WAGENER: Gen Engelbrecht became the Commander for the C Group on the 1st of January 1991.

MR BRITS: I'm not sure about the date, but I'll accept it as such.

MR WAGENER: Yes, it is after Gen Nick van Rensburg was transferred to the Cape, but January '91 was the date that Gen Engelbrecht became the Commander of C Group.

MR BRITS: I'll accept it.

MR WAGENER: I see in the statement, Exhibit B, you say de Kock was the Commander of C-Section. It's technically not correct and I assume that you say that Gen Engelbrecht was the Commander of C-Section.

MR BRITS: I may have put it the wrong way, but Col de Kock was my Unit Commander.

MR WAGENER: For C10?

MR BRITS: Yes, that came later when they added the zero.

MR WAGENER: Were you involved with the Harms Commission?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: The Harms Commission proceedings was during 1990, from February of August of that year.

MR BRITS: That could have been so, yes.

MR WAGENER: On a question from Adv Hattingh, you said that at various opportunities you discussed matters with Gen Engelbrecht, can you mention these matters, when, where, how?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall, but we were very comfortable with each other and where we discussed operations afterwards and laughed, but in detail.

MR WAGENER: Can you mention on single incident, if you cannot recall the rest? Can you give us a date, a place and what you talked about?

MR BRITS: Let me just put it clearly, I did not talk to Gen Engelbrecht alone, it would have been in a group and I cannot recall the place or the date or the specific matter.

MR WAGENER: In other words, you say that you never spoke to him alone?

MR BRITS: No, not as far as I can recall.

MR WAGENER: In other words, on the question of Mr Hattingh, I understood or got the impression that it boils down to the fact that you personally discussed matters with Gen Engelbrecht.

MR BRITS: That is not correct, Mr Chairperson. I, for example, met Gen Engelbrecht at the tennis courts and discussed his tennis, not necessarily concerning work.

MR WAGENER: But the way in which the question was put by Adv Hattingh, and your answer, I got the impression and maybe I'm wrong, that you and Gen Engelbrecht had various discussions about work matters and I assumed it was on a one on one basis, is that correct?

MR BRITS: No.

MR WAGENER: If there was one such matter you would have recalled it?

MR BRITS: Yes, I believe so.

MR WAGENER: And you've already testified that you cannot recall if this specific matter was discussed with him?

MR BRITS: Yes, I did testify about that.

MR WAGENER: So it's then unlikely that such a discussion could have taken place.

MR BRITS: It's likely and unlikely, Mr Chairperson. It is possible that I could have discussed it with him.

MR WAGENER: No, I hear what you say about "possible", but I also heard now that you said you would have recalled it, now my question is, can I accept that it most probably didn't happen that you discussed it with him? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR BRITS: Yes, it could have been so, it's possible.

MR WAGENER: When you went to the Eastern Transvaal with Mr Koekemoer, did you know what the whole operation entailed?

MR BRITS: I knew that I had to go and create a DLB.

MR WAGENER: Nothing else?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: You saw what you said in Exhibit B, the one that you signed this morning and confirmed under oath.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR WAGENER: And you will still recall that I personally administered the oath.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: If you look at that, the second-last page under the heading "Merits", there it says that you were aware that East Rand Murder and Robbery would launch an action against a person from the ANC.

MR BRITS: Yes, that is according to my statement.

MR WAGENER: Is it correct or not?

MR BRITS: This statement was signed by myself this morning and it was made with the assistance of my legal representative during this week. At the stage when I created the DLB, the first section is wrong.

MR WAGENER: So the fact that East Rand Murder and Robbery was going to act against a member of the ANC, where does that fit in?

MR BRITS: I only found that out at a later stage.

MR WAGENER: When was this?

MR BRITS: That was after the Attorney-General's investigations.

MR WAGENER: Where did you find this out?

MR BRITS: From Lionel Snyman.

MR WAGENER: Just for interest sake, is it not strange that the Murder and Robbery unit must act against a member of the ANC?

MR BRITS: At that stage Security and Murder and Robbery worked together.

MR WAGENER: Are you saying that during 1991, Murder and Robbery and Security acted against the ANC?

MR BRITS: If there was an ANC member that was killed and it was a Murder and Robbery person who was involved in the investigation of the murder, then the Murder and Robbery would have done it. That is why I'm saying, in that sense we co-operated.

MR WAGENER: I understand what you're saying, but after an action, if there's an investigation that followed and where somebody was killed, then Murder and Robbery would investigate it.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR WAGENER: But is said here is wrong.

MR BRITS: We worked closely with Murder and Robbery. As I already testified, they made use of our people to go and look for suspects, so we did work closely together, yes. That is what I meant.

MR WAGENER: Your tasks and you, this is now the old Vlakplaas members, that is now in March 1991, what did this entail? This is now a year after the unbanning of the ANC.

MR BRITS: Then we were based more on organised crime.

MR WAGENER: So then my question would be, is it not strange that Murder and Robbery had to act against the ANC? What would that mean?

MR BRITS: I wouldn't know, I cannot answer.

MR WAGENER: You testified earlier on this afternoon that - or maybe I should ask this question first. In the sub-division of Vlakplaas, that's in 1990, so the year before this operation you were divided into sections or sub-components.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR WAGENER: In which component did you fall?

MR BRITS: I was in Col de Kock's component.

MR WAGENER: Up and including January 1991, when Engelbrecht became the Commander of C-Group, did you have any personal contact with him? This is now Gen Engelbrecht?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, I did know about him. It was well known that he was a very good investigator and everybody knew about him, but I did not have direct contact with him.

MR WAGENER: You heard what Mr de Kock testified about earlier today, that on a date, we're not quite sure about the date and we accept that it was shortly before the 5th of March 1991, and he sent you to Gen Engelbrecht to go and get certain instructions.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR WAGENER: If such a thing would have happened, would you recall it?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Do you recall it?

MR BRITS: No, I don't.

MR WAGENER: And the same with the report-back - I think I've already asked this question, but for completion's sake, his evidence is that you would have reported back to Gen Engelbrecht concerning the operation, can you recall that?

MR BRITS: As I've already said, it's possible, but as far as I can recall I reported back to Col de Kock.

MR WAGENER: Then Mr Brits, we know that the deceased was killed on the 5th of March 1991, it was on a Tuesday.

MR BRITS: It's possible, yes.

MR WAGENER: And you said you and Mr Koekemoer went to the Lowveld on a Sunday.

MR BRITS: Yes, that is as far as I can recall.

MR WAGENER: Do you know if it was the Sunday immediately before the incident, or don't you know?

MR BRITS: No, I don't know.

MR WAGENER: What is your recollection?

MR BRITS: My recollection was that it was about a week or two weeks later. That is what I can recall. I'm not quite sure, but I cannot testify about the date.

MR WAGENER: So it doesn't help if we look at Mr Koekemoer's movements on Sunday the 3rd of March, or any specific Sunday?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot assist.

MR WAGENER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wagener.

Was there a bar open on a Sunday, in Nelspruit?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, I knew the people at Malelane who owned the hotel and we could buy beer from them.

CHAIRPERSON: A shebeen-like place?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: It helps to have contacts on the road, Chairperson.

Mr Brits, just generally, the information that Bambo was an ANC person, where did that come from?

MR BRITS: I do not know, I never knew about that.

MS PATEL: So what we see in your supplementary affidavit to us today, that is the information that you would have heard from Mr Snyman at the time that the A-G's office was investigating this matter?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MS PATEL: Okay. And you never discussed the incident with Mr Snyman, except to get the weapons from him?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes, and afterwards when I saw in the newspaper about the shooting, we just communicated about it. That was after I saw the newspaper. I called him and I told him somebody was shot in the Eastern Transvaal, but he didn't know what happened there.

MS PATEL: Right. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Brits, did you have contact after the incident with Mr Koekemoer?

MR BRITS: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: How often and how long afterwards?

MR BRITS: It's difficult to say, it was a very long time ago, but I did see him a few times afterwards, I also met him in Pretoria.

ADV BOSMAN: And you never discussed this whole incident again?

MR BRITS: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

Your association and friendship with Mr Koekemoer, you say that continued even after the Vlakplaas unit had been disbanded?

MR BRITS: Yes, if I went to the East Rand and he was at home, I would go and greet him, just to say hello.

ADV SANDI: I understood you to say that at that stage you continued trusting each other.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

ADV SANDI: You still didn't ask him about this dead letter box he had to set up?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: I also understood you to say that you do not recall any particular report which you had to give to Mr Engelbrecht.

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Now I have a problem, I'll tell you where my problem is. To start with, you've told us about so many possibilities that I've stopped counting, I have stopped counting now how many possibilities you've testified to here. Now when you say it's possible that you did go to Mr Engelbrecht to give a report ....(intervention)

MR BRITS: That is possible.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but it you were not in the habit of communicating with people like Generals, because as you've said you were a footsoldier, you didn't easily go and talk to those people on a person to person basis.

MR BRITS: That's correct.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but wouldn't it be easy for you to recall discussing this particular incident with Mr Engelbrecht?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, it was not a serious matter. Certain things were serious to me, but this wasn't. If I reported back to Col de Kock and he told me I had to report to Gen Engelbrecht, then I would have done it, but I wouldn't necessarily have remembered it. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

ADV SANDI: Do you still maintain that it's possible that you did go to Mr Engelbrecht to give a report to him?

MR BRITS: It's possible, yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Sandi. Any re-examination, Mr Cornelius?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Mindful of the time, only two questions, thank you Mr Chair.

You did not act keeping in mind that you wanted a bonus or some money from it?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And medals were given and bonuses were given in the past, and people have testified about this.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And if I recall the testimony of Mr de Kock, there was this understanding that no alcohol was used before an operation, is that right?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

ADV BOSMAN: Chairperson, may I be allowed just to put one more question to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Advocate Bosman.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

Did you ever in other matters, work professionally with Mr Koekemoer, except for this incident?

MR BRITS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, we worked closely together at scenes in the East Rand, where he was the investigative officer.

ADV BOSMAN: So you would say various incidents?

MR BRITS: I would not say, I cannot specifically say three or four or five, but we did work closely together.

ADV BOSMAN: Were these incidents all aboveboard incidents?

MR BRITS: No, it was only where he worked as an investigative officer and we assisted him.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: With your indulgence, Mr Chairman.

Mr Brits, is there any particular incident or operation which you've never discussed with Mr Engelbrecht?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall such a thing, no.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Brits, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I apologise to Correctional Services for just going through a minute or two after three-thirty. Could we come to an understanding that we commence at nine-thirty tomorrow? Is everybody comfortable with that? We'll adjourn until tomorrow, nine-thirty.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS