Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: I take it he's going to testify in Afrikaans?

MR CORNELIUS: Correct, Mr Chair.

NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (sworn states)

ADV BOSMAN: The applicant's duly sworn, Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Vermeulen, you are an applicant for amnesty in this matter and you've given your full co-operation to the TRC, is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You were stationed at Vlakplaas, with the general background as has been submitted before to this Committee. What rank did you have at that stage?

MR VERMEULEN: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you recall this specific Khanya House incident?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And you stood under the command of Eugene de Kock and worked on a need-to-know basis and followed all his instructions.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what your role was in this incident.

MR VERMEULEN: Mr Chairperson, I was only involved in the dousing of the building, the pouring out of the petrol and the setting alight of the building.

MR CORNELIUS: Was it petrol mixed with something else?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes, as far as I can recall it was ordinary petrol, but there could have been soap that was added to it, I cannot recall.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not mix it?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You've heard the evidence of Col de Kock, what section of the building did you set alight?

MR VERMEULEN: It was on the first floor and the ground floor.

MR CORNELIUS: And according to your knowledge was there anybody in the building?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You walked freely around on the ground floor and the first floor?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you remove anything from the building?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And afterwards, did you then leave or withdraw?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you armed?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Was any disciplinary action taken against you for this incident?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any remuneration for this?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any feelings of malice or revenge against the owners of that house?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You apply for amnesty in front of this Committee for arson, damaging of property, conspiracy and any delicts or offences that may emanate from it and anything that may emanate from what I've just mentioned, is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Chair

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you, Chair, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: I have no questions, Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Jansen.

MR JANSEN: No questions, thank you Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert?

MR JOUBERT: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you. No questions, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Vermeulen, who went onto the second and third floor of the building?

MR VERMEULEN: I do not know, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you know whether people went onto the second and third floor of the building?

MR VERMEULEN: I'm not quite sure, I was just involved in the first floor and the ground floor. There could have been people who could have gone upstairs, but as far as I know I cannot recall that the building had so many floors or levels.

MS CAMBANIS: We know now that there were seven people who were asleep on the second floor of the building, have you heard that, been informed of that?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but that was after the operation.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you hear it the following day, that seven people had been asleep on the second floor?

MR VERMEULEN: I'm not quite sure when I heard it, but I think it was the next day or sometime afterwards.

MS CAMBANIS: And you don't know who was responsible for going onto the second and third floors?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: You never asked questions?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: It was never discussed between yourselves?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you know if there is an applicant who is going to come forward and say they were on the second or third floor? Do you know that, Mr Vermeulen?

MR VERMEULEN: I think there will be one.

MS CAMBANIS: On person?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And that you know from discussing outside?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes. When was the first time that you ever went to Khanya House, was it that night?

MR VERMEULEN: That night, yes, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, Chairperson, I do, I've made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS CAMBANIS: On the ground floor, Sir, do you remember which structures you entered?

MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can know I just went into the passage and I sprinkled the petrol and I opened a couple of doors that were closed, but they weren't locked. That's all, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you remember a room that looked like it had shelves full of documents? The documentation centre, full of papers, an office?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: You didn't yourself enter that?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MS CAMBANIS: Do remember that there was another office jutting out of the building that was not doused at all?

MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't know about that, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you have any instructions to leave certain offices not doused in petrol?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: When did you attend the briefing session?

MR VERMEULEN: The afternoon before the operation.

MS CAMBANIS: And you've heard what Mr Ras has said about the briefing.

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And is that your recollection?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair, now I definitely do not have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vermeulen, was the building lit when you entered it?

MR VERMEULEN: Just repeat that question please, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the building lit, was there light when you entered through the passages?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes, yes, it wasn't completely dark, we could see where we're going.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm not saying it's semi or what, was there light like we are in this room?

MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recollect it was, ja, there were lights in the passage, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: The other rooms which you found not locked, was there light in them?

MR VERMEULEN: Not all of them, as far as I can recall, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Vermeulen. Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions for this witness.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Sandi?

ADV SANDI: No questions, thank you Chair.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Excuse me Chair, with your permission, through your questions there's just one aspect which I have to put to the witness of evidence that will come.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you, you may do so, Mr van der Merwe.

ADV SANDI: Just before that, I've said I have no questions, I do in fact have one.

Can I just ask you, you've just said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could we have Mr van der Merwe first and then the Panel last.

ADV SANDI: Okay, sorry.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Vermeulen, I appear on behalf of Kobus Kok and my instructions from him were that when he did go into the building he did switch off all the lights on all the levels, do you know about that?

MR VERMEULEN: No, I do not bear knowledge of that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So when they entered the building they did switch off the power.

MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall it was light because we could see what we were doing.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Advocate Sandi, I'm sorry about that.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.

You've just said there was light in the building, but were you not concerned that you could be identified?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chair.

ADV SANDI: Weren't you wearing a balaclava or something?

MR VERMEULEN: I had one on when we were travelling in the bus, but I don't think I had it on, I took it off because it was quite hot, Mr Chair.

ADV SANDI: Were you the only one who had a balaclava covering his head?

MR VERMEULEN: Not as far as I know, I think there were more people, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now finally, any re-examination, Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: I've no re-examination, that concludes this application. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Vermeulen, you are excused.

MR VERMEULEN: Thank you, Sir.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you leading further evidence in respect of Mr Vermeulen, or are you calling another applicant, Mr Cornelius?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm not leading any further evidence. My learned colleague, Mr Nel will proceed with Mr Hanton, Mr Chair. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chair, my client Mr Hanton and Oom Snor will be travelling to Durban after he's testified and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He's travelling with Mr Snor.

MR NEL: He's travelling with Mr Snor.

CHAIRPERSON: Not Mr Snor, Oom Snor.

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, Mr Hanton will be testifying in English and he will take the oath.