CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath. And give your full names for the record first please.
MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Dambuza.
EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Mazizi, are you an applicant in these proceedings in terms of Section 18 and 20 of Act number 3 of 1995?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry before you proceed, Ms Dambuza - Mr Ntisana, is Sidwell Mzwamadoda Ntisana not you?
MR NTISANA: No, it's not me.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
JUDGE MILLER: We have an application from Mr SM Ntisana, Bongweni, Mxutu, Gumengu - oh yes, so it's number 5.
MS DAMBUZA: It is number 5, Mr Chairman, thanks.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry. Thank you. Sorry about that, thank you.
MS DAMBUZA: Now I was asking if you are an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of the Act number 3 of 1995?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you have deposed to an affidavit in support of your application?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that in that affidavit you say that from 1986 you were a member of the Transkei Parliament, under Ms Stella Sigcau?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: And that during that period the parliament of Ms Sigcau was overthrown by Gen Holomisa?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: And that you say that after six months of Gen Holomisa's council on office you went to him demanding that a civilian government be put back in place.
MR NTISANA: That is correct, that's what we did.
MS DAMBUZA: Did that happen?
MR NTISANA: No, it did not happen.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Dambuza, just to get clarity -you say you went and then you say "that's what we did", did you go as a member of a group or did you do this personally, Mr Ntisana? - when you approached Gen Holomisa about the establishment of a civilian government.
MR NTISANA: I think we were about 30 in that group.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, Mr Dambuza.
MS DAMBUZA: And what was Gen Holomisa's response to that?
MR NTISANA: He said he was not ready for that, he was still busy ...(indistinct)
MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do thereafter?
MR NTISANA: We waited but we were arrested one by one.
MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that it is during this period that you discussed with Col Craig Duli the idea of a coup d'état against the government of Gen Holomisa?
MR NTISANA: It was after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, it was after a while.
MS DAMBUZA: After who was released?
MR NTISANA: After Mr Duli and Mr Mbotoli were released from Port Elizabeth.
MS DAMBUZA: What were your reasons of wanting a civilian government to be put back in place?
MR NTISANA: We wanted the people's government that would be elected democratically by the people and who would be mandated by the people.
MS DAMBUZA: Now is it correct that when Col Duli was released from jail he gave you instructions to contact persons in the Transkei Defence Force?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, that happened in January 1990.
MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you what he wanted these people for and if so, what was the reason?
MR NTISANA: He didn't tell us why he wanted these people, he just said that he was out of jail, he was going to go back to his work and he was working with these people.
MS DAMBUZA: Who did you contact?
MR NTISANA: It was Bongo Ndamase, Nzwamadoda Ntisana, Hlumelo Mxutu, Bongweni, Mr Bongweni.
MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you took these people to meet Col Duli?
MR NTISANA: They asked me to take them to him and I did.
MS DAMBUZA: Do you know the contents of their communication with Col Duli?
MR NTISANA: I was not present in their meeting, I just dropped them off and then I left.
MS DAMBUZA: Were you aware that Gen Duli was planning a coup?
MR NTISANA: At that time I did not know.
MS DAMBUZA: When did you become aware?
MR NTISANA: I became aware after he told me that these people that he called in that meeting were arrested.
MS DAMBUZA: Are those the people that you have just mentioned?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you the reasons why they had been arrested?
MR NTISANA: He told me after warning me that I should go outside because I was also going to be arrested, he told me that I should go to him so that he could tell me why they arrested. I then knew why they were arrested.
MS DAMBUZA: Were you of the opinion that it would be in the interests of Transkei if the military council government came to an end?
MR NTISANA: I was quite sure of that.
MS DAMBUZA: Did you then partake in the plans for the coup d'état?
MR NTISANA: I was part of those plans, but not on the side of the military.
MS DAMBUZA: Can you briefly tell the Tribunal the extent of your involvement or what acts you did.
MR NTISANA: My involvement or my role in the 1990 coup was that after Mr Duli was released from prison and I was also outside the Transkei, I was running away from being arrested and I was in East London, Mr Duli wanted to come back to the Transkei, he said that the soldiers were calling him to come back and to take over the government. And we would discuss that and I said to him we had no interest in the military government.
He then said that he was not interested in the military government either, he wanted the government to go back to the people, to be the people's government. And at that time we agreed on the fact that if he was going to come here as the military, he would here to take over the government, but he did not give us details, he did not give me details about how he was going to do this. But what I said is that I did not want to be involved in something that would involve, or that would make people to lose their lives. He said that he did not have weapons, the police had taken his weapons.
MS DAMBUZA: Did you foresee any bloodshed in the intended coup?
MR NTISANA: I was sure that there was not going to be any bloodshed because he said that he did not have weapons with him, he said that he was called by his friends inside. So I was sure that he had no weapons, so because of that there would be no bloodshed.
MS DAMBUZA: What then did you do in pursuance of this goal of the coup d'état?
MR NTISANA: First of all, inside me I knew that we would take over, we can take over the government back to the people and we had already agreed that there would be no bloodshed. He then called me on this particular day, the day that he was planning to overthrow the government. He said that I must take people from Queenstown. There were three people, I had to take them with my van and he told me that I must not take their route, I must take the Maclear route and he would contact me now and then over the radio.
MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you what route he himself would follow?
MR NTISANA: No, he did not tell me.
MS DAMBUZA: And then what was to happen to these people that you were going to pick up from Queenstown?
MR NTISANA: They would be with me, they were not going to take any part to what was going to happen to that operation he was going to do. They did not have weapons with them, we did not have weapons with us.
MS DAMBUZA: And then what happened after you picked them up?
MR NTISANA: I picked them up and then I drove from Queenstown to Maclear and to Tsolo and I would contact him over the radio and talk to him and tell him that I was on the way to Tsolo. And after that communication there was a communication breakdown when I was in Tsolo.
MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do when the communication broke down?
MR NTISANA: After the communication breakdown I went around Tsolo because we were tired, we wanted to sleep. We slept for a while and then after realising that we had this problem, we decided to go back to Maclear because we were already in the Transkei, in Tsolo and that is where we did not want to be arrested. We were running away from the Transkei, so we decided to go back to Maclear.
MS DAMBUZA: And then when you got to Maclear, what did you do?
MR NTISANA: When we got to Maclear it was early hours of the morning, it was in the morning and we heard over the radio that Col Duli went to the Transkei and things did not go according to his way at that time.
MS DAMBUZA: What do you mean when you say things did not go according to plan?
MR NTISANA: According to what we heard over the radio it was clear that he did not get what he had promised to get, there was some conflict that was happening.
MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do on hearing that?
MR NTISANA: After hearing that I took these people, those that were with me, I took them back to Queenstown where I found them. I then went back to East London where I was staying.
MS DAMBUZA: What was your actual involvement going to be in the process? - that is the coup itself.
MR NTISANA: My role was on the second plan because there was going to be another operation, another military operation that we termed Operation Sacrifice, that was going to be led by Mr Duli. And there was another one, Operation Dawn, whereby after everything was done, after the soldiers were taken back to their camp, I would then take steps to build a new government.
MS DAMBUZA: What exactly were you - how were you going to facilitate that?
MR NTISANA: When the soldiers were taken back to the camps and the Security Forces were deployed and the soldiers, my job would have been to call the kings and the chiefs from Sterkspruit, Maluti, Emboleni, Chingoland. I would call them and they would come together with the paramount chiefs and the State President was going to be involved and would give instructions that the State President ask the judge for them to be the custodians of the Transkei so that there could be an interim cabinet that would rule the Transkei. And we were going to give the President a sick leave after we had taken over. I was going to stay in that house until things became more clearer.
MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you had in your possession tapes which would be transmitted over the radio to advise the general public of the take-over of the coup?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I had those tapes with me, but I destroyed them after this attempted coup, after our plan failed.
MS DAMBUZA: Did you become aware at any stage that during the course of the attempt of the coup there were some people who died?
MR NTISANA: I heard that. That was a very painful thing because after all those attempts there were some people that lost their lives.
MS DAMBUZA: What eventually happened to yourself after you destroyed the tapes and went back to East London?
MR NTISANA: I then went to Johannesburg and while I was in Johannesburg I was lured to go to Durban but I escaped and then I went back to Johannesburg. There were spies that were supposed to kidnap me. I went back to East London, whereby I asked the police or I told the military government that I was in East London, if there was something they needed I was available. So I went back and I handed myself over here in the Transkei, so that I can face charges if that was to be.
MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that then you were prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to 11 years imprisonment?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: How many years did you actually stay in prison?
MR NTISANA: One year and six months.
MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you were released in 1995 on presidential parole?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying for amnesty for the acts which you have just outlined to the Committee?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, I am here today to humble myself, especially to the families who lost their loved ones. Even though I just stated that I was not part of that military operation, but I was involved in the planning of that and after all this I would have been ...(indistinct). So the fact that people lost their lives, that is very painful to me. And I had a decision that I was going to represent and protect people but it happened that instead of protecting them, some of them lost their lives.
MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dambuza. Yes, Mr Nodada.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mazizi, do you - rather, have you disclosed everything that you wanted to disclose to this Committee?
MR NTISANA: I tried, Sir.
MR NODADA: And you are aware that the Act that governs these hearings demands and requires that one should make a complete disclosure of one's involvement in any commission of an offence.
JUDGE MILLER: It says a full disclosure of all relevant facts.
MR NODADA: All relevant facts, thank you, Sir.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, we don't need to know every single minute detail if it's irrelevant.
MR NODADA: Yes.
You are aware of that Mr Ntisana?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I'm aware.
MR NODADA: I believe that you are the person who actually recruited your brother Mzwandile Ntisana, is that correct?
MR NTISANA: I recruited him but I was not aware.
MR NODADA: You were not aware of what?
MR NTISANA: I was not aware that the intention was to overthrow the government at the time I was recruiting him. I spoke to Craig Duli after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, not in Lusikisiki, at about June and this incident happened in January.
MR NODADA: When you recruited Mzwandile and others, what did you think they were required for by Col Duli?
MR NTISANA: To me it was enough for him to say that he wanted them because he wanted to go back to work and I can say that all these people together with Craig Duli, from time to time they would go and visit me because I had two brothers that were working for the Military Intelligence. So it was common for him to visit me at home.
MR NODADA: Now when Craig Duli was released from custody, what were his conditions of release, do you know?
MR NTISANA: I don't know.
MR NODADA: When he said to you he wanted to come back to Transkei and work, did you know what he had been working as before he was detained?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I knew.
MR NODADA: What was he working as?
MR NTISANA: He was working for the Military Intelligence.
MR NODADA: Was he not the second-in-command to Gen Bantu Holomisa, as a Chairman of the military council?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
MR NODADA: And you knew that when he was detained it was because he had fallen into some disagreement with Gen Holomisa.
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, I noticed that.
MR NODADA: Did you then ask him what he was going to come back to Transkei and work as?
MR NTISANA: He said that he was going back to his office, he was expelled.
JUDGE MILLER: So what did you think Mr Ntisane, that he was going back to become second-in-charge again of the military council? Is that what you think when he said he was going back to his office?
MR NTISANA: I believed what he said because he was a very clever man.
MR NODADA: Right. You were a member of parliament during the previous government under the leadership of Stella Sigcau, is that correct?
MR NTISANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR NODADA: And after that government had been overthrown by the military council under Holomisa, what did you become? Or rather, did you become anything in the government that took over?
MR NTISANA: I refused the offer of taking part in the government.
MR NODADA: So you did not become a member of the State.
MR NTISANA: In the Holomisa government?
MR NODADA: Wherever. Immediately after your being a member of parliament came to an end, you just became an ordinary citizen like any other Transkeian citizen?
MR NTISANA: I was an ordinary member of the Transkei and I refused an offer to go to the embassy in Port Elizabeth.
MR NODADA: I see. And you were not pleased when you discontinued to be an MP, as a result of the coup at the instance of Bantu Holomisa and others.
MR NTISANA: I still want to be the member of the parliament, even now.
MR NODADA: Yes I know that, but you were not pleased when that came to an end abruptly.
MR NTISANA: No, I was not pleased.
MR NODADA: When you were a member of parliament, were you not serving your own interests as a person?
MR NTISANA: No, I was serving the interest of the people.
MR NODADA: Is it correct that you were serving the interests of the people as well as your own interests?
MR NTISANA: I don't understand the question.
MR NODADA: Is it not correct that you were not only serving the interests of the people of Transkei, but you were also serving your own personal interests?
MR NTISANA: I was serving the interests of the people and I was amongst those people.
MR NODADA: What I want to establish is whether the interests that you were serving were to the exclusion of your personal interests.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, what do you mean by that Mr Nodada? We know that he was an MP and going with that position is some status, some remuneration, certain benefits.
MR NODADA: Those are the items that ...(intervention)
JUDGE MILLER: But I mean we know that that happens with every MP, you can get an MP who is an MP and has no interest in serving the people, he's only doing it because he's getting a salary and he likes the status. You get other MPs who find the question of the salary and status irrelevant and they want to do it to serve the people. So I think if you can just make it more clear to Mr Ntisane what you're trying to get at, because obviously everybody who does a job, any job - I'm doing a job, we're all doing a job here and we're doing it for the interests of the process, but it's obviously in a certain respect, we're doing it in our interest because it's our job. If we didn't do it we wouldn't eat at night or have a roof over our head.
MR NODADA: I quite appreciate that Judge, I'm quite indebted to you for that ...(intervention)
MR NTISANA: Am I supposed to answer?
MR NODADA: No. No, the judge has just intervened on your behalf so that I can clarify my question. And the question that I want to get an answer to is whether you fall in the category of those MPs who also had an interest in the income, that is the remuneration as well as the status, or you really didn't care about what you earned or the benefit that you got out of that, you were just concerned about your people?
MR NTISANA: It is true that I'm a different person, I am a person who is willing to work for the community without any pay, as I am doing right now.
MR NODADA: Alright, let's come back to the planning for this coup. Is it correct that Col Craig Duli was living in Stutterheim after he had been released from prison in Port Elizabeth? He settled down in Stutterheim.
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: Before he was released from prison did you ever visit him when he was still in detention?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I did visit him in Port Elizabeth.
MR NODADA: When exactly did this association between you and Col Craig Duli begin? - in relation to your status as an MP and also to his status as the second-in-command of the military council in the Transkei.
MR NTISANA: The association with Craig Duli started in 1975. I was a businessman in Lebode and his in-laws were in Lebode and when his wife got injured in my shop, that was when we started to know each other and we are somewhat related with his wife.
MR NODADA: I see. Let's come to the day of this incident. You say you were instructed to drive from East London and go and pick up some persons in Queenstown, who were those persons?
MR NTISANA: They were being called Ntati, they were from Lesotho. One of them if I still remember was Makobokobo, but they were referred to as Ntati because they were from Lesotho.
MR NODADA: Is it correct they were members of the Lesotho Liberation Army?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is what was said.
MR NODADA: And they were soldiers?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that was what was said, even though Makobokobo was over 70 years old.
MR NODADA: How did you establish that he was over 70 years old?
MR NTISANA: I knew that during the court case in court.
MR NODADA: You did not know these three persons before you met them on the 22nd?
MR NTISANA: No, I did not know them before.
MR NODADA: Were you told the purpose of picking up those persons from Queenstown, why you had to go and pick them up?
MR NTISANA: No, he did not tell me the purpose, he told me when I was in Queenstown that I had to pick up these people and that he was going to Transkei. All the time he didn't tell me, he kept this inside.
MR NODADA: So you were still in East London when you were told to go to Queenstown and pick up those persons.
MR NTISANA: Yes.
MR NODADA: And from Queenstown, where were you going to take them?
MR NTISANA: He told me to drive with them. As they were soldiers, I think they were bodyguards, but they didn't have anything with them.
MR NODADA: They were bodyguards for who?
MR NTISANA: They were supposed to be my bodyguards if they had weapons, but if they did not have weapons we would be in the same car, they would be like me.
MR NODADA: Now when you say they were supposed to be your bodyguards, what do you mean? Were you told that they were going to be your bodyguards?
MR NTISANA: I'm not saying they were bodyguards, what I'm saying is as I was told that they were soldiers, if they had weapons I would say that he had given me bodyguards but because they had no weapons with them, they were just together with me.
MR NODADA: How did you know that they didn't have weapons?
MR NTISANA: Because they were with me. If they had weapons I would have seen them.
MR NODADA: You didn't search for weapons?
MR NTISANA: No, I didn't search for weapons.
MR NODADA: Right. Apart from picking up those persons from Queenstown, where were you actually en-route to?
MR NTISANA: He told me to take the Maclear road and I would get instructions from him.
MR NODADA: Where were you actually - what was your destination when you left East London? I understand the route, but what was your destination?
MR NTISANA: He would give me instructions of my destination.
MR NODADA: And whose motor vehicle were you driving?
MR NTISANA: It was mine.
MR NODADA: And the one that was driven by Col Duli, or in which he was a passenger, if he was a passenger?
MR NTISANA: It was the one that was driven by me.
MR NODADA: Now when you left East London, were you driving along with Col Duli?
MR NTISANA: No, I was alone.
MR NODADA: And you were alone when you left East London and then you met three guys, at least three members of the Liberation Army of Lesotho, in Queenstown?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: And where was Duli all that time?
MR NTISANA: He had already left.
MR NODADA: Left what place?
MR NTISANA: Queenstown.
MR NODADA: So before you got to Queenstown, Col Duli had been there in Queenstown but left before you arrived?
MR NTISANA: Col Duli left me in East London and he went to Queenstown, when I arrived in Queenstown he had already left Queenstown.
MR NODADA: And what transport was he using when he left East London, going to Queenstown?
MR NTISANA: If I still remember well he was using his Mercedes Benz, the grey one.
MR NODADA: But what did you mean when you said you were, he was driving, I mean you were driving the same car as he was? What did you actually say when I asked you what transport, or whose motor vehicle Col Duli was driving?
MR NTISANA: I did not say that.
MR NODADA: What did you say?
MR NTISANA: I said I was driving my own car, I was not with him.
MR NODADA: I see, maybe I didn't understand you correctly. Anyway, did you ask him where he was going to from Queenstown?
MR NTISANA: Who?
MR NODADA: Col Duli.
MR NTISANA: When I arrived in Queenstown he was not there, he had already left.
JUDGE MILLER: I think what Mr Nodada wants to know is, when you spoke to Col Duli, when he told you to go to Queenstown to pick up these three gentlemen, did he tell you or give you any information as to where he was going? And perhaps if he did, as to why he was going to where he was going.
MR NTISANA: All he said over the radio was that I should pick these people up and take the route to Maclear. He said that over the radio. He said that he was going to the Transkei and I had to wait for his instructions. That is all.
MR NODADA: And of course you were in constant contact with him until you were at Tsolo, where you lost contact with him.
MR NTISANA: Yes, for some time.
MR NODADA: And he kept on informing you about his whereabouts until you lost contact?
MR NTISANA: He would not tell me where he was, but he would ask whether we are still safe on the road and I would say "Yes we're still driving well on the road".
MR NODADA: And of course you knew that he was - on that same day which was I believe, was it the night of the 21st of November 1992 or the morning of the 22nd of November 1990? - I beg your pardon.
MR NTISANA: When he said that he was going to the Transkei, it was on the 21st at night.
MR NODADA: And you knew that that was the day that he was coming to take over power from Gen Holomisa.
MR NTISANA: Yes, it was that day.
MR NODADA: And as planned, you knew that he was coming with all the members of the military wing as well as other people to assist him in the taking over, you knew that he was not just coming all by himself here, he had a lot of other people accompanying him?
MR NTISANA: Unfortunately I did not know who was with him.
MR NODADA: But at least you knew that there were armed people that were in his company.
MR NTISANA: I did not know that because I heard that their weapons were taken in Port Elizabeth.
MR NODADA: Didn't you know that when he was coming to take over power, he would resist - or rather he would apply force if he was meeting any resistance?
MR NTISANA: I did not know that would happen because he said that he was called by the soldiers of the Transkei.
MR NODADA: So when he came he was going to meet the soldiers of Transkei, who were going to assist him to take over power. Is that what he said to you?
MR NTISANA: Yes, he said that. He said that there was not going to be any bloodshed because the job would not be difficult because the soldiers of the Transkei were ready for him, that he must take over. Maybe I would say that I was dealing with a person who was very clever than me. That's what I realised after some time.
MR NODADA: And during the planning stage, how much did you know about the manner in which this whole coup was going to be executed, what details did you know?
MR NTISANA: I didn't have any details about what was going to happen or how it was going to happen, I was supposed to wait and then after he had finished his operation he would tell me that he was through and what had happened.
MR NODADA: Now when you went back to Maclear and later heard over the radio that the coup had not been successful, what did you do with the three passengers that you had in your vehicle?
MR NTISANA: I took them back to where I found them in Queenstown, even though I was scared.
MR NODADA: And from there you drove back to East London.
MR NTISANA: Yes, I drove back to East London.
MR NODADA: And when did you first learn that some people had been killed at the Ncise camp and also elsewhere?
MR NTISANA: I heard that from the news, that was the first time I heard that.
MR NODADA: Was that when you were at Maclear or on the way between Maclear and East London?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I can say on the way between Maclear and East London.
MR NODADA: Did you consider yourself part of that killing?
MR NTISANA: Because of the conspiracy I can say yes, I was part of the killing.
MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan, have you got any questions?
MR MALAN: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: What political objective did you intend achieving by taking over the Holomisa government?
MR NTISANA: The intention was that Transkei should be ruled by the civilians, not the military, so that all the changes can be done by the people of the Transkei.
MR MAPOMA: Prior to Holomisa taking over, the Transkei government was led by a political party known as the Tinip(?), do you recall that?
MR NTISANA: Yes.
MR MAPOMA: Were you a member of the Tinip?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I was a member because we were overthrown when we were busy reviving the strength of the Tinip when the government was overthrown.
MR MAPOMA: And during the Tinip era the political activities led by the liberation movements were banned in Transkei then, do you recall that?
MR NTISANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR MAPOMA: And there were good relations, working relations between the Transkei government, led by Tinip and the apartheid government led by P W Botha and then later on F W de Klerk. Is that correct?
MR NTISANA: There was conflict Sir, between those two governments, their relations were not good.
MR MAPOMA: But when it comes to curbing the actions of those who were referred to as the terrorists, there was a good co-operation between these two parties, is it not correct?
MR NTISANA: It was not that good but it surprised me when the government was led by Ms Stella Sigcau when people from Lusaka were arrested we were surprised as members of the parliament when those people went to Lusaka to see the members of the ANC and when they came back they were arrested and a lot of us were surprised by that action.
MR MAPOMA: Now during the Holomisa era, you will agree with me that the government led by Holomisa was to a great extent sympathetic to the liberation movements.
MR NTISANA: I read that from the newspapers and I also saw that on TV, Sir, because I was already in prison when it became clear that he was working with them, or he sympathised with them. But before the Holomisa coup, the reasons why the government was overthrown I became aware of those reasons because they said that the security of the Transkei was not working properly. The relatives were the ones who were hired and ...(indistinct) Matanzima was also arrested. Those were the reasons that led to the removal of Ms Stella Sigcau.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, I think to a certain extent you have answered my question. Now the good relations that Holomisa had with the liberation movements was not taken kindly by the South African Government during that period, is that not correct?
MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct because I heard about that.
MR MAPOMA: And in fact the South African Government was assisting Col Duli in getting rid of the Holomisa government through your actions. Do you agree with me?
MR NTISANA: I did not see that, I'm not going to agree with you because I did not see what you are saying.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, but it's actually correct that Col Duli was working with the South African Government, the South African Government was aiding him in getting rid of the Holomisa government. Were you not aware of that throughout up to this moment?
MR NTISANA: That was a very clever man, I was not aware of that, not at all.
MR MAPOMA: When did you become at aware, if at all you did become aware, that Col Duli was working with the South African Government when he was conducting the aborted coup?
MR NTISANA: I don't have evidence of that, even now I'm surprised of how he managed to do that.
JUDGE MILLER: Have you ever heard of it before? Have you heard it said that the South African Government were assisting him in his endeavours to overthrow the Transkei Government?
MR NTISANA: No, I did not see or hear anything about that. Since he was arrested in Queenstown I saw that there was no-one protecting him or helping him.
JUDGE MILLER: But I mean even now recently, haven't you heard that?
MR NTISANA: No, I haven't heard.
MR MAPOMA: Mr Ntisana, I want to suggest to you Sir, that the main objective of that coup, aborted coup, the main political objective was to restore the status quo which existed during the Matanzima era, vis-ŕ-vis the political activities that were taking place in Transkei. That is getting in Transkei a government which was going to work hand-in-hand with the South African Government to curb the terrorists in this part of South Africa. What do you say to that?
MR NTISANA: I wouldn't know because the government I was serving under was Nkosazana Stella Sigcau's government.
MR MAPOMA: Who are those paramount chiefs that you identified as chiefs who were going to be coopted into the intended interim government?
MR NTISANA: They were not going to be in the interim government, but they would call the Transkeian people so that the people can appoint the interim cabinet. It was the paramount chiefs from Emampondweni, two of them, Mxalega and two from Themboland and the king from Maluti, Mzimkhulu, Emboland and Fingoland, according to the regions of the Transkei.
MR MAPOMA: But if I'm not mistaken, if you will correct me if I'm wrong, you spoke of four chiefs, who are these four chiefs?
MR NTISANA: Maybe I didn't count properly. Even now I did not count how many there are. There is no paramount chief in Maluti and Fingoland and in Herschel there's no paramount chief and in Emboland there's no paramount chief.
MR MAPOMA: No, what I want to find out Sir is, who are these chiefs that you had in mind to be coopted into your government?
MR NTISANA: We did not pick them by names, but because I knew all the regions would have a chief that would represent the region.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?
JUDGE MILLER: Did you become a member of parliament when the Sigcau government, Ms Sigcau became Prime Minister?
MR NTISANA: That is correct.
JUDGE MILLER: You weren't one before, during the governments of the Matanzimas?
MR NTISANA: We became members after Chief George Matanzima.
JUDGE MILLER: How long have you been a member of the Tsitina party?
MR NTISANA: From the 1980s.
JUDGE MILLER: The radio that you were using when you were driving - you said that you communicated with Col Duli with a radio, where did you get that radio from?
MR NTISANA: He had radios with him - Mr Craig Duli. He had radios with him.
JUDGE MILLER: Did he give you a radio?
MR NTISANA: Yes, there was a radio with me in the car.
JUDGE MILLER: And are you still saying Mr Ntisana, that you've never heard of the allegation, even of it being said that Col Duli received arms from the South African Security Forces, through Eugene de Kock?
MR NTISANA: I only read that from the newspapers, but I cannot give evidence on that because I never saw him speaking to any white person.
JUDGE MILLER: And you don't know the route that Col Duli took to get into Transkei that night, the 21st November?
MR NTISANA: No, not at all. I wouldn't have sacrificed my car and the car that he borrowed from me to go to Kofinvaba. I saw that on TV.
JUDGE MILLER: Did you ever have meetings with Mr Mbotoli regarding the changing of government in Transkei?
MR NTISANA: No.
JUDGE MILLER: And the previous two applicants who testified this morning, that's Messrs Gumengu and Nombanga, did you come across them at all during that period?
MR NTISANA: I saw Gumengu in Johannesburg, but I did not know him but he knew me.
JUDGE MILLER: Did you talk with him?
MR NTISANA: No, we didn't say anything to each other.
JUDGE MILLER: Do you have any comment on what you heard this morning, that he was at all times, had infiltrated your group? When I say your group I mean the persons involved in the planning of the coup.
MR NTISANA: I was surprised when he said what he said.
JUDGE MILLER: Because you must have got to know him quite well, you were co-accused in the trial weren't you, and that trial lasted for a long, long time.
MR NTISANA: Yes, I know him because we were together in jail and Mr Nombanga was also in jail.
JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: Under what circumstances did you see Gumengu in Johannesburg, did you attend a meeting with him?
MR NTISANA: We met in the street. They came to me, I had a problem, my car broke down and they told me that they were from the Transkei.
MR SIBANYONI: Insofar as the intended coup is concerned, at least you knew that the paramount chief will be called as well as the judge will be called to ask the other chiefs to take custody of Transkei, is that so?
MR NTISANA: Yes, I knew that, I knew that those were the intentions.
MR SIBANYONI: And did those chiefs know that they will be asked to take custody of Transkei?
MR NTISANA: No, they did not know.
MR SIBANYONI: And at what stage were you supposed to use the tapes which you had in your custody?
MR NTISANA: After Col Duli gave out the instruction that everything was under control those tapes were going to be used.
MR SIBANYONI: And then the districts you are talking about are quite vast if I'm not mistaken, how would those chiefs be summonsed, be called together?
MR NTISANA: I once asked that question but he said that in all the regions there were easy ways, maybe they could go to the police station and they would find out about that after everything was done.
MR SIBANYONI: Now in 1992, the political atmosphere was quite different here in South Africa, including the homelands, it was obvious that there would be general elections where everybody would take part, there would be no military councils or military juntas, was it any political ... to try to get hold or to take over Transkei from Gen Holomisa? Or was it just a power struggle between you people residing in that area?
MR NTISANA: It was the conflict that was amongst the people in the Transkei, it had nothing to do with the political liberation movements that were banned, that were not in the Transkei.
MR SIBANYONI: In other areas like in other homelands, the majority of the people were in favour of the changes which were taking place away from the homelands, was it not the case with Transkei?
MR NTISANA: It was going to be like that.
MR SIBANYONI: Why do you say you were acting in the interests of the people of the Transkei, when you are not sure whether they wanted you and Col Duli to seize power in Transkei?
MR NTISANA: We were not going to rule Transkei, but the people of Transkei were going to rule Transkei and the changes were going to be done by the people of the Transkei, not the military.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Dambuza, any re-examination?
MS DAMBUZA: None, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Ntisana, thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, now I call Mzwamadoda Ntisana to the witness box.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's number 1 on our list.
MS DAMBUZA: It is number 1, it is applicant number 1, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
