CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bongweni, just indicate to us if your headset is working. Do you hear the interpreters?
MR BONGWENI: I can hear, but no properly.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright we'll assist you. Will you please stand to take the oath. Are you full names Zandisile Edwin Bongweni?
ZANDISILE EDWIN BONGWENI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Ms Dambuza.
EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Bongweni, are you an applicant in terms of Section 18 and 20 of Act 34/95?
MR BONGWENI: That is correct, Ma'am.
MS DAMBUZA: Which acts are you actually applying for amnesty in respect of?
MR BONGWENI: It is because I was involved in the group that planned the coup.
MS DAMBUZA: Who approached you to be involved in this planned coup?
MR BONGWENI: Bongolani Ndamase.
MS DAMBUZA: What did he say to you, Bongolani Ndamase?
MR BONGWENI: He said that Col Duli wanted to see me.
MS DAMBUZA: Did you know Col Craig Duli before Ndamase approached you?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, we were working together.
MS DAMBUZA: When Bongolani Ndamase approached you as you have said, what were you employed as?
MR BONGWENI: I was training the soldiers that were attending the military school.
MS DAMBUZA: And where exactly were you stationed?
MR BONGWENI: In Ncise.
MS DAMBUZA: And what was your rank?
MR BONGWENI: I was a Sergeant-Major.
MS DAMBUZA: Did Bongolani Ndamase tell you what Col Duli wanted to see you about?
MR BONGWENI: No, he did not tell me.
MS DAMBUZA: Did you go then and see Col Duli as requested?
MR BONGWENI: Yes.
MS DAMBUZA: How did you get there?
MR BONGWENI: Ndamase was driving a car, he took me with him and then we met Mxutu and Zwamadoda Ntisana and Mazizi. We all drove to Queenstown and we met with him in Queenstown, that is Col Duli.
MS DAMBUZA: What did Col Duli tell you when you met him?
MR BONGWENI: Col Duli said that he wanted to see us because as we knew that the government said that it would hand over to the people's government, but that didn't happen yet, so he said that he had already met with other soldiers so we had to overthrow Mr Holomisa's government.
MS DAMBUZA: And what was your response?
MR BONGWENI: We said that we had wanted that to happen because Gen Holomisa had promised that the government would be returned to the people.
MS DAMBUZA: Were you involved in the pervious coup when the government of Ms Stella Sigcau was toppled?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, I was involved.
MS DAMBUZA: What happened then after you agreed to be involved in the coup?
MR BONGWENI: He told us that we must go to Port St Johns and inform the soldiers there, so that they can be aware of what was going to happen. He said that he had already told the officers in Post St Johns, but the other soldiers were not aware of what was going to happen.
MS DAMBUZA: And did you go and tell them as instructed?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, we told them as we were instructed.
MS DAMBUZA: Did the coup in fact take place?
MR BONGWENI: No, it didn't take place because when we came back from Port St Johns, when we arrived here in Umtata the day before the planned coup, we were told that we had to abandon the plan and then on the following day when we were going to work we were then arrested.
MS DAMBUZA: And were you subsequently convicted and sentenced in respect of this deed?
MR BONGWENI: Can you please repeat the question.
MS DAMBUZA: Were you then after your arrest, subsequently convicted and sentenced for your actions?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, I was convicted and sentenced to 8 years, 4 years suspended.
MS DAMBUZA: How many years did you serve and when were you released?
MR BONGWENI: I served four years and I was released in 1994, end of November 1994.
MS DAMBUZA: When you met Col Duli in Queenstown, was Mr Mxutu in the same meeting?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, that is correct.
MS DAMBUZA: And what part were you going to play, you yourself, in the intended coup?
MR BONGWENI: I was going to talk with the soldiers, inform them about what was going to happen, so that there could be no conflict.
MS DAMBUZA: Did you foresee any bloodshed or even loss of life when you were planning this coup?
MR BONGWENI: No, there was nothing like that because Col Duli said that he had informed all the officers, they were aware of what was going to happen.
MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying that the Committee grants you amnesty for your acts as you've just outlined?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, I would like the Committee to give me amnesty for my actions.
MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Mr Nodada, questions?
MR NODADA: Mr Bongweni, by the way where were you based as a solider at the time?
MR BONGWENI: At Ncise.
MR NODADA: And how were you going to inform the members of the special forces at Port St Johns about this intended coup?
MR BONGWENI: We would meet with them in Port St Johns and tell them, those that were the same level of ranks with us, that Col Duli had told us to inform them, as we indeed did so, we told them.
MR NODADA: Did he tell you how you should actually go about telling them, namely whether you should call a meeting of all of them and announce this, or how did he say you must actually inform them?
MR BONGWENI: He told us that we should meet with some few members that were in the same ranks as ourselves and tell them.
MR NODADA: Did he give you the assurance that most of the soldiers were in favour of the coup that he was planning?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, that is correct, he gave is the assurance.
MR NODADA: You have said in your evidence you did not expect that there would be bloodshed, why did you not expect it if it was going to be as planned by Col Duli?
MR BONGWENI: It is because he said that he had met with the soldiers, they were aware of what was going to happen, so there was not going to be any conflict.
MR NODADA: What did he say about these senior officers, that is senior members of the TDF?
MR BONGWENI: He said that he had already met with all of the senior members of the TDF, they were aware of this and they were supporting him.
MR NODADA: Did you believe that personally?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, I believe that because there was nothing that could make me not to believe it.
MR NODADA: Did you also share the feeling that the military council that was ruling at the time should be overthrown?
MR BONGWENI: Yes, I also shared that feeling because I thought that it would be better if the government was ruled by the civilians.
MR NODADA: And you know now what actually happened, how the whole coup was carried out and when it was actually stage in November later that year.
MR BONGWENI: No, I don't know how it happened.
MR NODADA: Now do you consider yourself responsible directly or indirectly, for the loss of life as well as the loss of limb that was occasioned by the aborted coup of 22 November 1990?
MR BONGWENI: No, because I was already in jail at the time.
MR NODADA: So you do not consider yourself responsible for that?
MR BONGWENI: ...(no English interpretation)
MR NODADA: You do not consider yourself responsible for that ultimate ...(intervention)
MR BONGWENI: No, no, because I was not there, I was not involved.
MR NODADA: Now why are you applying for amnesty, what do you want to be pardoned for?
MR BONGWENI: Because I was sentenced and I have a criminal record, so I would like that to be removed because I cannot even get employment, I can't do anything.
MR NODADA: Why must it be removed, why do you want it removed?
MR BONGWENI: Because I was involved in the group that was planning this coup.
MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: I've got no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Panel? Have you got any re-examination?
MS DAMBUZA: None Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for your applicants?
MS DAMBUZA: That is the case for my applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Bongweni, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nodada, do you intend to call some witnesses?
MR NODADA: Yes, Mr Chairman. That is correct Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you need to make some logistical arrangements for them?
MR NODADA: Yes, precisely.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's see if we can. Are you able to proceed with them?
MR NODADA: I'll start with the one next to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let's set the thing up quickly.
MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm calling Themba Pokwana, who is going to testify as one of the victims of this aborted coup on 22 November 1990. May he be sworn in please.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Nodada. Mr Pokwana, just indicate to us if your headset is working, whether you can hear the interpreters talking to you.
MR POKWANA: Yes, I can hear.
CHAIRPERSON: You must please stand to take the oath. Are your full names Themba Pokwana?
THEMBA POKWANA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Nodada.
EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Themba, during 1990, were you a member of the Transkei Defence Force?
MR POKWANA: In 1990 I was a recruit in Ncise.
MR NODADA: A recruit in the Transkei Defence Force?
MR POKWANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: And you were based at Ncise, where you were undergoing your initial training.
MR POKWANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.
MR NODADA: Right. Were you present at the camp where you were accommodated on the night of 21 November 1990?
MR POKWANA: Yes, I was present.
MR NODADA: I want you to cast you memories back to the events of that evening and actually give a full account of what you experienced on that night.
MR POKWANA: What happened is on the 21st until the 22nd of November 1990, we were sleeping as the recruits. At about 3 o'clock in the morning we heard some noise outside. After hearing that noise out side some of us woke up because we were staying there in the camp, in the bungalows.
MR NODADA: Just slow down a bit. Carry on.
MR POKWANA: After that almost all of us woke up, we heard outside that there was noises of some gunshots.
MR NODADA: What noise - oh gunshots. Was that the only noise that you heard outside, gunshots being fired?
MR POKWANA: Yes, at first it was only the gunshots.
MR NODADA: And what was your immediate reaction when you heard those gunshots?
MR POKWANA: As we were sleeping we woke up and we dressed up.
MR NODADA: Were you all sleeping in the same sort of a dormitory or how were you sleeping? Were you in different rooms?
MR POKWANA: Some of us were sleeping in a bungalow like a dormitory.
MR NODADA: And others?
MR POKWANA: Others were in other houses, others were in the tents.
MR NODADA: But you were within the same premises, all of you.
MR POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR NODADA: Alright, carry on.
MR POKWANA: After getting dressed I saw a man by the name of Kwele, he had blood on his face.
MR NODADA: Were the lights on inside when you woke up?
MR POKWANA: Yes, because we had already woken up, all of us.
MR NODADA: So this man by the name of Kwele, was he entering the bungalow in which you were gathered after you had woken up?
MR POKWANA: Yes, he was entering the bungalow that I was in.
MR NODADA: Yes, continue.
MR POKWANA: He went in and he was bleeding heavily in his face. When I stood up, next to me was Mr Peter, the deceased Mr Peter. He was still alive at the time. And when I was standing up I could hear that there were some movements and it was at that the time when the bomb was thrown inside the bungalow. I then got injured that way.
MR NODADA: Were you armed as you were sleeping in the bungalow?
MR POKWANA: No, we had nothing, we were not armed.
MR NODADA: After you had been injured, were you able to see what followed after the event?
MR POKWANA: Because it was still dark, at about three or four when this bomb was thrown inside, the lights went off. After that I didn't know what happened.
MR NODADA: Were you unconscious or was it just dark?
MR POKWANA: After being injured I became unconscious.
MR NODADA: And when did you regain consciousness and where were you?
MR POKWANA: I became conscious and I was still in the bungalow, at about 6 a.m. on the 22nd.
MR NODADA: And what part of your body was injured?
MR POKWANA: In the head, face and in my body and both legs.
MR NODADA: What did you see when you regained consciousness at about 6 o'clock?
MR POKWANA: When I regained consciousness I saw Mr Peter and he was sleeping where he was sleeping and the deceased Mr Gungu too, the people that I was staying with in the bungalow and they were dead.
MR NODADA: And were there any casualties that you saw in the same vicinity, other than the two dead persons?
MR POKWANA: Yes, I also saw Nomganga, I saw the man behind me, Nombida and the others that were also in that bungalow and Mr Mogoduga who is not there now. They were all injured.
MR NODADA: And what was happening at that time?
MR POKWANA: At that time it was noise outside, I think it was when these people that were with Col Duli were arriving. I don't know what was happening outside because I was inside, it was just noises outside.
MR NODADA: What sort of noise was that, was it human noise or noise of fired guns or bombing, what noise was it? - as you could make out.
MR POKWANA: It was gunshots and people's voices, they were calling others.
MR NODADA: Yes, and then after that what happened?
MR POKWANA: After that at about seven or after 7 o'clock, soldiers came that were trying to help us, those that were working in that recruit camp.
MR NODADA: Did they take you to hospital?
MR POKWANA: Yes, they took us out outside and when we were outside we were supposed to be taken by an ambulance and then we realised that the group that was with Col Duli had arrived and then these people that were going to help us, they ran away trying to save their lives and they left us outside.
MR NODADA: And these people that you say were coming with Craig Duli, that you saw when you got outside, what were they doing? - as far as you could make out.
MR POKWANA: As I was already injured and I was outside, I could only see people that were going to the other camp known as 1TBM.
MR NODADA: Were you sitting - I mean, how did the soldiers who were helping, leave you outside, did they just leave you on the ground or where were you left?
MR POKWANA: They took us out of the bungalow, we were wrapped in blankets, so they left us like that. The reason why they decided to leave us is because another bomb was thrown when they were busy taking us outside, so they ran away.
MR NODADA: Was it thrown at the place where you were left, or inside some building?
MR POKWANA: This bomb was thrown in the road, because there was a road in-between, so they put us on the side where the tents were.
MR NODADA: So you were not affected by that bomb?
MR POKWANA: Yes, I was not affected.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Nodada.
Was it a bomb or a handgrenade, or don't you know?
MR POKWANA: It was a mortar bomb, not a handgrenade.
JUDGE MILLER: On both occasions, the one that was thrown into the bungalow and also the one when you were being carried out?
MR POKWANA: Yes, they were both mortar bombs.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Nodada.
MR NODADA: Thank you.
Did that one explode, the last one that you have just mentioned?
MR POKWANA: Yes, it exploded and its shrapnel went to the sides of the bungalows, not on our side.
MR NODADA: So nobody was injured as far as you know, as a result of that?
MR POKWANA: I can't remember well because I was on the other side with others that were injured, so I don't know about the people that were in the bungalows because there were a lot of bungalows there.
MR NODADA: You have described these people that you saw outside, those that caused the group that was helping you, as Duli group, did you know that they were Duli group at that time, or you were just confused?
MR POKWANA: Because of the uniform they had it was clear that it was not the soldiers that were working with us, it was clear that they were the attackers.
MR NODADA: Were they dressed in combat uniform, or how were they dressed?
MR POKWANA: Those that I saw were wearing coco-brown, not the Transkeian Defence Force uniform.
MR NODADA: This coco-brown uniform, did you recognise it to be belonging to any military group or liberation army? How did you understand this coco-brown uniform?
MR POKWANA: It was being used by the SADF.
MR NODADA: So in short you saw people who were dressed in the South African Defence Force uniform?
MR POKWANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: Did you recognise anyone of them at that stage?
MR POKWANA: No, I didn't recognise anyone.
MR NODADA: Alright. Now you saw them going up to the other camps and then, carry on and tell us what you saw.
MR POKWANA: After that as we were being left there and the soldiers ran away after this second bomb had exploded, I noticed some people like Mr Mlandeli, a deceased, and Mr Mzweni, they were already dead. And after some time the soldiers came back, they took me to the military hospital.
MR NODADA: And did you ever see those soldiers who were dressed in the SADF uniform, after you had seen them going up in the direction you've indicated?
MR POKWANA: No, I didn't see them after that.
MR NODADA: And then you landed in hospital?
MR POKWANA: Yes, I was taken to the hospital.
MR NODADA: And while you were in hospital did you see anything else that apparently was connected with those acts?
MR POKWANA: No, I did not see anything.
MR NODADA: And for how long did you remain in hospital?
MR POKWANA: I remained there in the morning and I was taken at about three and I was transferred to the general hospital here in Umtata.
MR NODADA: On the same day, that is 22 November?
MR POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR NODADA: And when did you first hear that these were soldiers, or these were persons who were aiding Col Duli to overthrow the military council government?
MR POKWANA: As I've already indicated, as we heard those bombs and there was a person who was speaking in a loudspeaker saying that he was Col Duli and he was back.
MR NODADA: Yes, and then after you had been discharged from the hospital, did you go back to the base where you were being trained as a recruit?
MR POKWANA: Yes, I went back to the base where I was being trained.
MR NODADA: Are you now still working as a soldier?
MR POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR NODADA: What is your rank now?
MR POKWANA: I'm a Corporal.
MR NODADA: Where are you based now?
MR POKWANA: At Ncise, 14 ...(indistinct).
MR NODADA: Right. Did you get any compensation for the injuries that you sustained?
MR POKWANA: No, I didn't get any compensation.
MR NODADA: I've no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Nodada, just while you're on that point, I don't know if you've done it already but it would be appreciated if you could give a list of the victims that you are representing to Mr Mapoma.
MR NODADA: I'll do that.
JUDGE MILLER: Because we as a Committee, in the event of any amnesty being granted or in the event of a gross violation, are bound to refer the victims through to the Committee on Reparations and Rehabilitation and having a list also enabling that Committee to be able to track down and trace the victims would be appreciated.
MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA
CHAIRPERSON: You're through?
MR NODADA: I'm through.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just before we go to you, Mr Malan, can I just ask the members of the public not to read their magazines and their newspapers in the venue please. We are busy with serious matters here and it's inappropriate. If you're not interested in the proceedings, it's inappropriate to come here to sit and read your magazines, obviously not interested in what is going on. So please let's get your cooperation in that regard.
Yes, Mr Malan.
MR MALAN: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Dambuza.
MS DAMBUZA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma.
MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: From the Panel?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Just very briefly.
Mr Pokwana, do you know how many people died in that attack on the base at Ncise? - that morning.
MR POKWANA: The people that I saw that morning that died were four.
JUDGE MILLER: And you say they were mortar bombs, the first one that came into the bungalow, did it come through the roof or the wall or through the door? How did it get into the bungalow?
MR POKWANA: Through the roof.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication as to how many people got injured in the attack? Four died.
MR POKWANA: If I still remember well, I think it was 33 who got injured.
CHAIRPERSON: And four died?
MR POKWANA: Those that I can still remember were four.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Nodada, any re-examination?
MR NODADA: I've no re-examination, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA
CHAIRPERSON: I will now proceed and call the second victim.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Mr Pokwana, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: What are his names, Mr Nodada?
MR NODADA: He's Zolo Nodeta.
CHAIRPERSON: Just give the surname again.
MR NODADA: Nombida, N-o-m-b-i-d-a.
CHAIRPERSON: Nombida. Thank you.
Mr Nombida, just indicate to us if your headset is working, if you can hear the interpreters.
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I can hear.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath. Are your names Zola Nombida.
ZOLA NOMBIDA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Yes, Mr Nodada.
EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Zola, what are you doing for a living now?
MR NOMBIDA: I'm a soldier, Air Force in Pretoria.
MR NODADA: And were you a member of the Transkei Defence Force in 1990?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I was a member of the Transkei Defence Force in 1990, I was a recruit.
MR NODADA: Were you in the same group as the last witness, Mr Pokwana?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: Were you in the same camp on the night or early morning of the 22nd of November 1990?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I was in the same camp, we were in the same bungalow with Mr Pokwana.
MR NODADA: Yes. What happened as far as you can remember?
MR NOMBIDA: In the morning, 22nd November 1990, round about 3 o'clock, early in the morning we heard gunshots outside and immediately after that we put the lights on and then we dressed up.
MR NODADA: Did you all wake up?
MR NOMBIDA: Not all of us at the same time, some of use woke up and then some were dressing up because that was a big bungalow, there was more than 80 of us, but most of us had already woken up at the time.
MR NODADA: Yes, you woke after hearing gunfires outside, and then what happened?
MR NOMBIDA: After that Mr Kwele went in and his fact was full of blood, he was bleeding, we then asked what was happening, he then went to the other side of the bungalow, he went straight to the other side. We asked one another what was happening, his face was full of blood.
MR NODADA: Did he tell you what was happening?
MR NOMBIDA: He just said that there was shooting outside.
MR NODADA: Had he been sleeping in the same bungalow as you and Pokwana?
MR NOMBIDA: No, he was not in that bungalow, he was sleeping in the tent because we were sleeping according to the different companies. We were in D company and he was in E company on the site of the tents.
MR NODADA: Yes, and then what happened afterwards?
MR NOMBIDA: What happened after Mr Kwele went in, we heard that there was shooting going on outside. Immediately after that this mortar bomb from the roof exploded.
MR NODADA: Yes, and what happened, did you get injured?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I got injured. There was noise going on and the cries in the bungalow. We were injured and there was confusion all over. I was also injured.
MR NODADA: Yes, were you able to see anything immediately after you had been injured?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I was able to see everything that was happening because I was not unconscious, I was hit here on the waist and on my leg, so I was able to see what was happening because I was just shocked but I didn't become unconscious.
MR NODADA: Now did you also hear some voices after the bomb?
MR NOMBIDA: I heard the voices when the soldiers came, those that saved us from the bungalow, those that took us outside. And they took us to a place outside, we were covered with blankets. From there another bomb, the second one, a mortar bomb exploded and those people that were helping us said that those who can manage to run away must run away and they left us there. I managed to crawl and go to another tent, trying to hide away from what was happening. I was with another young man, Nomganga. We went inside that tent, hiding.
MR NODADA: Just try and slow down.
MR NOMBIDA: It is where I heard voices when I was in that tent.
MR NODADA: Yes, what voices were those?
MR NOMBIDA: I heard somebody speaking from a loudspeaker outside saying that he was Col Duli, he said that we must stand in a queue in the camp.
MR NODADA: Did you see any other soldiers who were not injured, outside at that stage?
MR NOMBIDA: Those who were able to run away, they managed to run away but others were taken to the hospitals with the ambulance, those that were injured.
MR NODADA: Yes. In other words, there was just a chaos that you witnessed outside.
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: Alright, that continued until what happened?
MR NOMBIDA: After hiding in that tent we heard rifles outside and the mortar bombs continued. What I could recognise is that in that cover I was injured when I was going there and there were people that were wearing coco-brown uniforms. They were next to the fence in our camp, those were the people that I recognised.
MR NODADA: Were there any moving motor vehicles or trucks in that area at the time?
MR NOMBIDA: No, those people were standing next to the fence, seemingly it was clear that they are the ones that were shooting in the camp because they were wearing coco-brown uniforms and in the Transkei Defence Force we were not using coco-brown uniforms at the time.
MR NODADA: Did you also know that uniform to be the South African Defence Force uniform?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, I knew that it was the South African Defence Force uniform.
MR NODADA: Yes, and then? Carry on.
MR NOMBIDA: Whilst I was still in the tent there was chaos outside and I could hear the person who was speaking and it was going towards the morning and the soldiers that were going to save us, they came and we were in the tent, they went inside the tent. They were the ones who organised transport for us to take us to the hospital.
At that time there was no ambulance, they took me with a motor vehicle that belonged to a bakery and took me to the junction. When I arrived at the junction I was taken to another car that was driven by the deceased Sgt-Maj Boni. I was taken by that car and then I was escorted by two people, they took me to the general hospital.
MR NODADA: You are describing Sgt-Maj Boni as deceased, did he also die on the same day?
MR NOMBIDA: No, didn't die on that day, he died afterwards due to some illness, after the coup.
MR NODADA: How many persons did you see dead on that morning, before you landed in hospital?
MR NOMBIDA: Three of them died in that bungalow, Mr Cgonguto, Olyai and Peter. Three of them died in that bungalow, two died in the tents, Mr Zweli and Mr Mlangeni.
MR NODADA: And in hospital were there any of those that were injured that died?
MR NOMBIDA: No, nobody died in hospital, but most of us were taken to the intensive care unit.
MR NODADA: Yes. What part of your body was injured?
MR NOMBIDA: My waist and my right leg and my left side.
MR NODADA: Were you shot or were you injured as a result of the bomb that was thrown into the bungalow?
MR NOMBIDA: I was injured due to the bomb that was thrown in the bungalow.
MR NODADA: Alright. And you subsequently learnt that that was Craig Duli's group that was attempting to stage a coup d'état to take over the government of this place from the military council, is that so?
MR NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct, and that was also confirmed when I was in the intensive care unit. When Gen Matanzima arrived, he gave us the information, he told us what was happening. He said that Mr Duli had staged a coup.
MR NODADA: Apart from you soldiers that were based at Ncise camp, did you see any other persons who did not belong to the TDF, that were killed or injured in the same area?
MR NOMBIDA: According to me I don't know anything of that sort because I only know the recruits that died and then I was taken to the hospital.
MR NODADA: Did you know that there was going to be an attack that evening, or that morning?
MR NOMBIDA: No, I didn't know anything.
MR NODADA: Did you know that Col Duli was planning to overthrow the military government during the year 1990?
MR NOMBIDA: No, I didn't know anything at all.
MR NODADA: Have you received any compensation for the injuries that you sustained, Sir?
MR NOMBIDA: No, we didn't get anything.
MR NODADA: What is your rank now as a member of the SANDF in the ...(indistinct)
MR NOMBIDA: I'm a Corporal.
MR NODADA: Is there anything else that you'd like to inform this Committee about?
MR NOMBIDA: What I can say to this Committee is that as we sustained injuries there it is very difficult to advance ourselves in the military and some of us left the military because they were injured. Even myself, it is very difficult for me to do certain courses because they require physical training, but because I was injured I am unable to do that. That is what I can say to this Committee.
MR NODADA: That is all, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: I've got no questions to pose, thank you, Sir.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Dambuza.
MS DAMBUZA: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Panel?
MR SIBANYONI: Were there any people from Duli's group who were injured?
MR NOMBIDA: I don't know because when Gen Matanzima came to us he didn't say what happened, he just told us what was happening there, that there was a coup, that's all.
MR SIBANYONI: When you were taken to hospital, did the attackers stop attacking you?
MR NOMBIDA: At that time they were still attacking, that is why Sgt-Maj Boni handed me over to two people to escort me, two soldiers to escort me to hospital.
MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nodada, have you got any re-examination?
MR NODADA: No re-examination, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nombida, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence that you wish to present on behalf of the victims?
MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I would like to call just one of the widows who would like to say something to the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What are her names?
MR NODADA: The names are Nosisi Kahla.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell the surname?
MR NODADA: K-a-h-l-a.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mrs Kahla, good morning. Just indicate to us if you can hear the interpreters on your headset.
MS KAHLA: Yes, I can.
CHAIRPERSON: It's working, good. Will you please stand to take the oath. Your full names Nosisi Kahla?
NOSISI KAHLA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sit down. Yes, Mr Nodada.
EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Nosisi, are you the widow of Nedisi Atwell Kahla?
MS KAHLA: Mlungisi Atwell Kahla.
MR NODADA: Was he employed by the Transkei Defence Force?
MS KAHLA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: And is it correct that he died on the same day, that is the morning of the 22nd of November 1990?
MS KAHLA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: Where was he based during his lifetime?
MS KAHLA: He was in Ncise camp as the instructor for the recruits.
MR NODADA: And what was his rank, if you know?
MS KAHLA: He was a Sergeant-Major.
MR NODADA: And where were you working at the time, if you were employed?
MS KAHLA: I was working for Telkom as a telephonist.
MR NODADA: And was he living outside the camp or was he residing at the camp, that is your husband?
MS KAHLA: Sometimes he would be inside the camp as a training officer for the recruits, but on that particular night he was in the camp.
MR NODADA: In the camp. And what did you hear on the 22nd of November and where were you?
MS KAHLA: I was at work at the post office that night, I was on duty.
MR NODADA: You were doing night-duty?
MS KAHLA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NODADA: Just tell us how you got to know that your husband had died.
MS KAHLA: On that particular night, on the morning of the 22nd, we left our workplace, some technicians came and they realised that something was going on in the camp at about 3a.m. We were requested and the other people were requested to come and assist because the people inside at work were not supposed to go out, we help in communications.
I continued on duty up until 11 and 12a.m. because people were not allowed to come in and those who were inside were not allowed to go out.
MR NODADA: Yes, carry on.
MS KAHLA: We were later released at about one. I was residing next to Chatham. In fact on that particular morning I asked the other soldiers who were going to the camp to go and check out for Mlungisi. No-one came back to me to tell me what was happening until such time that I had to go home.
After that I decided to go out to check up on him because he was at work on that particular night, but I did not get a clue of what was happening. And I called Mr Derek Mgwebi, Mr Mgwebi told me to stay in the house, he was going to check what was happening and then I also called Brig Matanzima, he told me that he would come back to me but he requested me to remain in the house, they would come and fetch me because Mlungisi was injured.
I waited until the following day but no-one came. I phoned my brother, the deceased DM and I told him that no-one came back to me to tell me what was happening to Mlungisi and I asked him to accompany me to the camp. When we got to the road junction there were roadblocks, we could not get into the camp in time but eventually we managed to get inside. I went to his office that was called "Skollie", I met with the late Andile Mncwazi, he told me that Mlungisi was injured, but he did not tell me that he had died.
When we left him all the people who knew me they did not even want to look at me. Rev Lila came and asked me where I was going and I told him that I was looking for Mlungisi, I wanted to know what was happening because when we went to the hospital to see the casualties we were refused. Rev Lila told me to go to Lebode to go and fetch my mother because Mlungisi was injured. He told us that we could not go to the hospital without an elderly person. Mr Lila told my mother that Mlungisi was injured and he died in the process. That's how I know the story.
MR NODADA: And how many children did you have at the time of his death?
MS KAHLA: Two children, two daughters. The first-born was four years old and the last-born was one year old.
MR NODADA: And since his death have you perhaps received any form of compensation for the loss of maintenance and support as he was the breadwinner in your house?
MS KAHLA: Yes, I am receiving a widow's fund plus what is called Workmen's Compensation.
MR NODADA: Is there anything else that you would like to tell this Committee? Is there anything else that you'd like to add to what you've already said?
MS KAHLA: Not at the moment.
MR NODADA: Nothing. Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all I wanted to lead from this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nodada. Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: Mr Chairman, on behalf of both my clients and myself we would like to offer our sincere condolences to her, but we've got no questions, thanks.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that is noted. Ms Dambuza.
MS DAMBUZA: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I don't have any questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Panel? Have you got anything further, Mr Nodada?
MR NODADA: No further evidence, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Kahla, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I assume that you don't have any witnesses that you intend calling.
MR MAPOMA: No witnesses Chairperson, thanks.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Malan, are you in a position to address us on the merits of the applications of your clients?
MR MALAN IN ARGUMENT: I am indeed, Mr Chairman. Can I continue?
Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, at the start of the proceedings yesterday I didn't feel at liberty to disclose some of the views, due to the fact that I felt it might prejudice my clients' applications. Now at the conclusion and after tendering evidence under oath, it is my conviction by making a simple and clinical analysis of the facts, that both of my clients, both applications of my clients don't fall within the ambit of Act 34/95.
It is one of the prerequisites that an applicant must have committed a crime and acknowledge it, and throughout their evidence they persisted that they didn't commit a crime and they were merely executing their duties and I respect the fact that they played open cards with the Committee in this regard. If there was a great miscarriage of justice in the criminal matter, it is not for this Committee, with respect, to rectify the omissions in the defence by means of this forum.
It was as early as our first consultation that I informed them of my opinion that they will not qualify for amnesty due to this fact. If I'm wrong that's another story, I do not want to underestimate the powers and the discretion of this Committee to overrule my humble opinion, but I have already informed them yesterday of my opinion and I think they accept it in that way that I've explained it to them. That is still my opinion at this point in time. Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan, for your frank submissions. Ms Dambuza, have you got any submissions before I go to Mr Nodada to respond.
MS DAMBUZA: Just a few, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MS DAMBUZA IN ARGUMENT: It is my humble submission that all four of my clients do fall within the ambit of the Act, Act 34/95, in that they have all admitted to having committed a crime. In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he has admitted that he did take part in the planning of the coup. In respect of the other three, Mzwamadoda Ntisana, Mxutu and Bongweni, they have also admitted that they were involved in the planning of the coup which did not take place.
CHAIRPERSON: So in your case we're just talking about the January aborted coup.
JUDGE MILLER: Except for the one.
MS DAMBUZA: Except for the one. In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he was involved in the coup of the 22nd of November 1990. That is applicant number 5.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so does his application relate to both the abortive coup and the unsuccessful coup?
MS DAMBUZA: His application Mr Chairman, relates to the coup of the 22nd November 1990, because we do not have any evidence of his involvement in - oh I'm sorry, it is in respect of both the coup that did not take place in January and the coup of 1990, November.
CHAIRPERSON: And the actual one.
MS DAMBUZA: And the actual one that aborted.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS DAMBUZA: He does admit having taken - having been involved in both instances.
CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the other three it only relates to the January conspiracy.
MS DAMBUZA: In respect of the January - exactly, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MR SIBANYONI: May you respond to this question. Would you say your client, Mazizi Ntisana has made a full disclosure in respect of this coup of the 22nd of November? We hear that the soldiers were wearing some SADF uniforms, we also hear that some mortar bombs were used, but insofar as the evidence he's given us, he didn't disclose any of those details.
MS DAMBUZA: The evidence that he has given is to the effect that he was not aware that there was going to be any arms, he did not see any arms and he was of the view or believed that the coup would be bloodless.
Mr Chairman, there is an indication that he subsequently became aware of what was said, that the South African Government was involved in aiding Col Duli. However, my submission would be that that could only be regarded as hearsay because he did not have firsthand knowledge of that. He has said repeatedly that Col Duli did not, apparently on hindsight, disclose everything to him. It is my submission that in the circumstances he has disclosed all what he personally knew or what he was told by Col Duli.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, just remind me now Ms Dambuza, he testified about two legs of this operation, now just help me, is this in respect of the November coup? He was talking about Operation Sacrifice and Operation Dawn, I'm not sure which one of the two he fitted into but I formed the impression that what he said was he was to really feature actively only in the subsequent leg of the coup, which seems to me to have more been after the actual takeover, the physical takeover of power he would come in, on the second leg of the operation. Now do I understand this correctly or what?
MS DAMBUZA: Exactly Mr Chairman, that is exactly what Mazizi Ntisana says. He says the first part it was going to be exclusively Col Duli and the other soldiers, he would only take part after he had received a signal from Col Duli that everything was okay and then he would then perform his part.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. He was travelling with his Lesotho people, was he?
MS DAMBUZA: He was travelling with the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: On the road and then they lost contact with Mr Duli and then returned.
MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, Mr Chairman. And therefore they could not proceed to perform what was supposed to be his part.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you. Have you got other submissions?
MS DAMBUZA: Save, Mr Chairman, to indicate that all applicants have been punished in the sense that they have served sentences, they did undergo the process of prosecution and serve sentences, and it is my submission that they sort of paid for the part they took in the coup.
In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he has indicated that he regrets the loss of life which eventually occurred and on behalf of him I would like to again echo this sentiment. In respect of the other three applicants, they also served their sentences and the coup that was intended did not take place. I think those are the only submissions I have.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Ms Dambuza.
MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Chairperson.
What would you say on - what would your submissions on proportionality be, they attack people who were asleep, unarmed.
MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, it is a bit difficult to say in the sense that the evidence of Mazizi Ntisana, applicant number 5, is that he was really not aware of what would actually take place in the stage one of the coup and therefore one is loathe to speculate on what his actions would have been if he had known the extent to which the military operation would go. He has repeatedly said he was acting under the conviction that Col Duli and his soldiers would be able to carry this out without bloodshed or loss of life as this had happened before when they were involved in the coup of Ms Sigcau's government.
MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my colleague just reminds me now, what was he convicted of?
MS DAMBUZA: He was convicted of treason. I think ...(intervention)
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, I think he was in the Supreme Court trial, yes.
MS DAMBUZA: He was in the Supreme Court trial. JUDGE MILLER: He was convicted of treason, yes.
MS DAMBUZA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That is in respect of the November one.
MS DAMBUZA: Applicant number 5, that is in respect of the November one.
CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the other one, was he never charged for his role in the ...
MS DAMBUZA: No, he was never charged for that particular one.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
JUDGE MILLER: But his involvement in the first one, according to his evidence was he didn't know what was going on because - although he did say later after that, there were some meetings. When he actually took them to see Col Duli, he didn't know why Duli wanted to see them, but I think that after the there were a couple of meetings.
MS DAMBUZA: Yes, he became aware in subsequent meetings, but when he first told him to go and fetch them, he did tell him what he wanted them for.
JUDGE MILLER: Just one other small point, Ms Dambuza, the acts sets out three criteria, you've dealt with two, namely the political objective, I think quite clearly it was political. The second, full disclosure. The third is that the application itself complies with the requirements of the Act, from a technical point of view. Now I don't know if you associate yourself with what Mr Malan put to us earlier, that these application forms were completed in the presence of somebody from the TRC, immediately before the cut-off date and that is why the actual form contains very little information. Because normally one would expect these questions to be answered, but is it the same situation that prevails in relation to your clients, as opposed to Mr Malan's?
MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, although I was not yet involved in the case at that stage, yesterday when Mr Malan clarified the situation I did confirm with my clients and they did confirm that it was indeed so and therefore I would align myself with what Mr Malan has submitted.
JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Ms Dambuza.
MS DAMBUZA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Dambuza, just in respect of the other three applicants of yours, other than Mr Mazizi Ntisana, what were they convicted of, what was the offence?
MS DAMBUZA: They were convicted of conspiracy to commit treason.
CHAIRPERSON: To commit treason.
MS DAMBUZA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: All three of them?
MS DAMBUZA: All three of them.
CHAIRPERSON: And is that what they're asking amnesty for?
MS DAMBUZA: That is what they're asking amnesty for, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And does that include Mr Mazizi?
MS DAMBUZA: Mr Mazizi's application goes further to apply for amnesty in respect of the treason conviction.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I'm sorry, I didn't make myself quite clear, I'm only limiting myself now to the January planning. So the other three are asking for amnesty in respect of the conspiracy to commit treason and Mr Mazizi is asking for amnesty in respect of treason insofar as the November coup is concerned, and is he also asking for conspiracy to commit treason in respect of the January incident?
MS DAMBUZA: My instructions are not as such Mr Chairman, because he says he was not aware of what was going on and therefore was not involved and he didn't actively take part in that plan of the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: So you're not applying for amnesty in respect of the January incident insofar as Mr Mazizi Ntisana is concerned?
MS DAMBUZA: No, I haven't been instructed in that fashion.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So the three is in respect of January and Mazizi in respect of November?
MS DAMBUZA: Mazizi in respect of - yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Yes, Mr Nodada, we don't need to hear you in respect of the clients of Mr Malan, if you have any submissions you could focus on the clients of Ms Dambuza.
MR NODADA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Basically, insofar as the other three applicants, that is with the exception of Mazizi Ntisana, I don't seem to be having any problems. But my main problems actually relate to the testimony of Mazizi Ntisana, as regards the full disclosure of the relevant facts that he's required to make.
If one looks at his evidence closely, objectively as well, he wants to create an impression to this Committee that he did not know much about what was going to happen, but if one looks at his affidavit he states clearly that he had several meetings with Col Craig Duli who approached him, apparently immediately after he had been released from prison, he knew him very well, they had known each other since 1975, and he appears to be one of the persons who were aggrieved as a result of the military coup that was led by Col Duli and Bantu Holomisa, which led to the military council government in Transkei, the former Transkei. And his dissatisfaction and grief actually emanates directly from the fact that he was a member of parliament of the civilian government that was led by Stella Sigcau and then he definitely must have involved himself in the planned coup which actually was led by Col Duli in particular, in fact it appears that he was also playing a leading role in the planning of that coup. He gives the impression that although he had so many meetings, not only in Queenstown and East London where he fled and stayed, but also in Johannesburg and perhaps some other places. But despite that, he has not honestly and openly told this Committee about the details of those meetings.
We are told not only through his affidavit but also from his evidence, that he is the one who was actually sent by Col Duli to make contact with the members of the TDF at Port St Johns. He started with his brother, Mzwamadoda Ntisana and also he made contact with other members like Ndamase, Mxutu and others that were based at Port St Johns and at the Ncise base in Umtata. And all that is being disclosed by him is that he just told them that Col Duli wanted to see them. And this is also repeated by the other applicants who state that they were just told that Col Duli wanted to see them, and we are not told as regards exactly the questions that they must have posed. I mean you cannot just be called by a man that you have known to have been in detention and subsequently released through a court order, who definitely must have reached a stage where he developed some misunderstanding with his Chairman, that was Bantu Holomisa at the time, to respond to a call when you owed the allegiance that you had taken as a soldier to the military government which was ruling at the time.
And we also hear that he actually provided transport to Stutterheim, according to him, where the meeting was with Col Duli, but he does not appear to have been involved in the deliberations in that meeting and as regards what Col Duli actually said. He seems to be wanting to take advantage of the fact hat he was a civilian and not a soldier and therefore he could not have taken part in those discussions and he knew nothing that was being said. Yet, he clearly informs this Committee that he was going to be the leader of the second part of the operation, that is Operation Dawn, and he had some tapes that were in his possession. He does not tell us what was contained in those tapes and what was going to be done, save to say that he was going to meet the four paramount chiefs and also four senior chiefs that were going to take over power as soon as the coup was successful.
As regards the discussions that he had with Col Duli before they left East London on the morning of the 21st or rather, on the evening of the 21st when he was to pick up some liberation, the Lesotho Liberation Army members in Queenstown, he just skims over the events that took place. And even as regards the communication, the constant continuous communication that he had over the radio with Col Duli, he wants to give the impression that well really there was nothing really important that was being discussed and yet that was actually the eve of the main event.
He plays the role of - whilst admitting that he was going to be involved immediately after the coup, he wants to give the impression that he knew very, very little and he keeps on telling this Committee that whenever he has to answer a direct question which would actually cause him to disclose any relevant factors, he decides to hide behind the statement that he was dealing with a very clever man. He kept on informing this Committee that Craig Duli was a very, very clever man and he hid most of the information from him.
Now he was a member of parliament, he gives the impression that he was an active politician and was very much interested to have the power returned to the civilian government and yet he involves himself in such a serious act of high treason without exposing himself to know exactly the details and what to foresee and what to expect as to the manner in which this whole coup was going to happen. Like for instance, as regards the involvement of the South African Defence Force he was questioned directly as to whether he knew that the SADF members were involved, he said no, he did not know.
And he was taken further and asked whether even after the event, up to now, he has not heard that the members of the SADF were involved and when he was asked by Mr Mapoma, he denied knowledge of that until he was specifically asked by Judge Miller when he was referred to the involvement of Eugene de Kock, then he started disclosing that he had heard in the media that Eugene de Kock had supplied the arms to the people who were going to stage the coup.
If I may just go back a little bit to the members of the Lesotho Liberation Army. He gives the impression that those people were not armed, but up to the end of his testimony we do not seem to know what their involvement was actually going to be and what role they actually played, except for conveyed in his motor vehicle from Queenstown to Maclear and Tsolo and then back to Maclear and then back to East London. In fact he does not even say where he actually left them.
JUDGE MILLER: I think he said he dropped them in Queenstown, then he ...(intervention)
MR NODADA: In Queenstown. Yes thank you, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MILLER: And he said he didn't see any arms and the one person was elderly, over 70.
MR NODADA: Over 70, yes. And he didn't know their names, but they were members of a liberation army and they came here to play a role, what role did they play? They were in his motor vehicle, they were in his group, they were going to be involved in the coup, what role did they play? That leaves a lot to be desired. And it is my submission that when a person makes such an application, at least - although he's not required to give all the details, the Act requires that he must make a full disclosure of all relevant and material facts that will assist the Committee in coming to a decision whether the application should be granted or not. And I submit that he has failed to do so and it is my submission that in the circumstances I'm of the view that he has not satisfied the requirements of Section 20(1)(b) of the Act, and as such I would not expect his application to be granted in those circumstances.
Insofar as the other applicants, as I've indicated, it would appear that they were soldiers and apparently they were hand-picked. I'm not sure about Ntisana, whether he was hand-picked by his brother or it was the choice of Col Duli, I'm not very sure there, but according to the evidence of Mazizi Ntisana he approached them. And also the evidence of Mzwabantu(?) Ntisana, his brother himself, he was just approached and told that he was wanted by Col Duli, he wanted to see him. The same applies to Mxutu and Bongweni.
And without asking questions, without really wanting to know about what was going to happen, they give the impression that they just got up and went to see Col Duli and when they got there Col Duli told them that he was going to take over and that he had already made contact with his senior officers, they were aware of this and they were ready to assist him, and then they were sent to go to the special forces at Port St Johns just tell them that this is what was going to happen.
And those members, those applicants were members of the TDF and they were employed full-time, like we have heard from Mxutu that they were arrested on the day they were going to work. I also feel that really although their case is not, insofar as I'm concerned, as bad as that of Mazizi Ntisana, there is a lot that they have not disclosed to this Committee and all the attempts have been made to extract the information from them and this unfortunately has been in vain.
I also submit therefore that there is not much that has been presented by these persons, that is the other three applicants, that would make them qualify for the application that they are making. That is all, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Mapoma, have you got any submissions, save in respect of the clients of Mr Malan?
MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I just have very few points in respect Mr Mazizi Ntisana's application, as some of the issues Chairperson, have been covered by my learned colleague, Mr Nodada, regarding his application.
Chairperson, I have got some concerns regarding the requirement of full disclosure as well when it comes to the application of Mr Ntisana. It will be recalled Chairperson, that Mr Mazizi Ntisana was a member of parliament prior to the overthrowing by Gen Holomisa and in fact he was a businessman in Transkei. One of the reasons why this government was toppled by Gen Holomisa it's a matter of public record, were accusations of corruption and nepotism. He was a personal friend of Mr Craig Duli for a number of years. In fact in paragraph number 4 on page 61 of the bundle he says -
"During 1988 I was taken into custody for a period of three weeks, due to the fact that I dare to question the government of Gen Holomisa."
This shows that immediately after Holomisa came into power he had his own problems with that government and has never been satisfied with it. And he goes on to criticise the Holomisa government and he says on page 62 of the bundle -
"I was convinced that the coup d'état was the only avenue left to get rid of Holomisa and to force him to hand over power and authority back to the Transkei people in order to establish a democratic government."
I leave it there.
Chairperson, this I would submit gives an impression that we are dealing with a man who all along, after Holomisa came into power, became convinced that the only solution is to get him off power through a coup d'état. Now he meets with Mr Duli after his release from prison, he gets conversation with him to the extent that he is sent to call some soldiers. Interestingly enough there Chairperson, he pleads that he is ignorant of what the plan is. And I submit Chairperson, this is highly inconceivable, that at that stage during January, we are dealing with a man who did not know what these soldiers were wanted for by Mr Craig Duli. And that is important Chairperson, a disclosure to be made because it impacts on his role in the planning of this coup d'état. It impacts as well on his role in the actual coup itself.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but Ms Dambuza said that he's not applying for the January one, she hasn't got any instructions. So we can't refuse it if he's not applying for it.
MR MAPOMA: Oh yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, but what I'm saying is that this draws a background, this is in January, the actual coup d'état took place in November 1990, that is some months after that and still he is not very much involved in this planning and how it's going to be executed and all that. I've got a feeling Chairperson, I would submit, that he has not been candid enough before the Committee to give as complete a picture as possible of what their plan was in this coup. It is not enough Chairperson, I would submit, to say that because he was to be involved in Operation Dawn and not Operation Sacrifice as such, that would mean that he did not know at all what Operation Sacrifice would entail. I'm saying Chairperson, that is not sufficiently conceivable in the circumstances. Well, the other issues have been dealt with by Mr Nodada. Thanks, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Ms Dambuza, have you got anything you want to respond to that arises from the submissions of your colleagues?
MS DAMBUZA IN REPLY: Just on one or two points, Mr Chairperson. I would like to bring to the fore the different stages, or the difference between the two instances, that is the planned coup of January 1990 and the actual one that aborted in November.
Now Mazizi Ntisana says he was instructed by Col Duli to call the soldiers and I would like to refer the Committee to paragraph 6 of his affidavit, on page 65 of the bundle, in which he says, line 3 -
"It was only on the 16th of January 1990 when my said brother and others had been arrested that I realised that Col Duli had planned a coup d'état for that day."
Now according to the evidence that is before the Committee that is the stage he became aware, but he was candid enough to say that then after he became aware he willingly aligned himself, continued to plan now the coup that he became aware Col Duli still intended to execute. And therefore, even though he does not align himself with the coup of the 16th January or 15th January, the planned one, it is my submission that the background that he has given, there are no flaws of significance that can be cause enough for the application not to be granted in his favour.
CHAIRPERSON: Then why would he be hiding ...(indistinct), why would he be still lying at this stage, I mean what - hasn't he served his sentence, hasn't he been punished for all this? What is the real purpose of this amnesty application, apart from things like clearing records and that sort of stuff?
MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, that is exactly my sentiment Mr Chairman, that he does not have any reason to be lying, and if he was lying in respect of his knowledge about the planned coup of the 15th January, it was such an insignificant - it was an event of less significance than the one of the 20th of November. If he chose to lie, he would have tried to lie more about the one that resulted in loss of life and can be considered as more serious than the one of the 15th January.
It is my submission Mr Chair, that he - that is Mazizi Ntisana, does not really say "I did not know anything about the first operation, Operation Sacrifice", he says "I knew that there were two stages, there was going to be the military part that was going to be carried out Col Duli and then I would come in". And he does say exactly what he was then supposed to do in the part that he was supposed to play. It is my submission that even the contention by my learned friend, Nodada, that even during the journey to Maclear/Tsolo he does not divulge what was discussed over the radios. If there was anything of significance it is highly unlikely that it would have been discussed at this stage, for really - they could even be intercepted. It is reasonable I submit ...(intervention)
JUDGE MILLER: He did say that he was in contact regularly with Col Duli, who enquired whether they were still travelling well on the road. I mean that's what he said the discussions were about.
MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, that's what he said Mr Chairman, and it was not necessary for them to discuss any details at this stage, save to check on each other if they were still safe whilst they were still in contact. And that is why I say that even his disclosure at this stage, it is reasonable for them to have been doing that, there's no reason for him to hide any other thing.
And in respect of him and the other three soldiers, I do submit that Duli is a man they were used to working with and he had successfully executed a coup with them a few months prior. Mr Mazizi Ntisana does not say - his evidence does not indicate that he became agitated or dissatisfied with Holomisa's government immediately after he took power, he said the agreement or the understanding was that he was going to take power for six months and thereafter he would release the power back to the people.
Now in paragraph 4 he does indicate that what happened is that the corruption that was present on Ms Stella Sigcau's government escalated and it, I submit, was sufficient ground for him at this stage to think that if we let this go on and on, things are going to get only worse. He was not impatient as my learned friend has suggested, immediately that Holomisa took power. I therefore submit, Mr Chairman, that enough or full disclosure has been presented to the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Dambuza. Mr Malan, I assume that you wouldn't have anything in relation to that.
MR MALAN: That is correct, thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you very much. This concludes the formal part of these applications. We have listened to a lot of evidence, there is some other material that have been placed before us which we will consider and we will formulate a decision in the circumstances, once we are in a position to do so. So under the circumstances we will reserve the decision in this matter and we will notify the parties as soon as that decision is available.
It only remains for us to thank you legal representatives for your assistance in this matter, Mr Malan, Ms Dambuza, Mr Nodada, Mr Mapoma, you assistance is appreciated.
We will now take the short adjournment and hopefully in the meantime the rest of the matters would be prepared, so that we can proceed with those others Mr Mapoma, when we reconvene. We'll take the tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
